also this an ideal
griffguts situation bc we all know guts is into griffith sitting in an
immaculate lawn chair, no visible sweat, umbrella shading him + mocktail
and aviators while watching him do hard physical labor
two extremely good points
@madchen said:
griffith: kicks the
fuck back in a beach chair to scope out that prime Guts Sweaty Abs while
hes hauling shit and casca is very excited abt the electric drill
@madchen said:
casca and griffith diy
together and try to get guts in on it but guts always tries to Not
Follow Directions bc who cares/doesnt see the point of hotgluing ribbons
to mason jars
lmao this is perfect.
also consider: the three of them spending a weekend building a porch together. though i can’t decide whether modern au griffith would actually contribute much
@tfan2013 said: omg guts doing workout vid would be
adorable. it would be kinda awkward but griffith encourages him to
continue 🙂
@yesgabsstuff said:
Oh my gosh, Guts would
be the cutest! I think he would eventually have a core of his own super
loyal followers because he’s competent.
Also, like, I love
Casca, but homegirl un-ironically has bought into the entire Pinterest
aesthetic. Mason Jars and burlap and all.
honestly yeah people would love him lol. and lol casca. lmao my first thought when you said DIY was casca building a porch, which shows you how much i actually know about pinterest, but I could see the whole mason jar hipster aesthetic too ngl. and they’re not mutually exclusive so…
@yesgabsstuff said:
Lol I always thought
of Griffith as a serious Tumblr/Instagram person. His LinkedIn is also
meticulous. Casca also has a perfect LinkedIn and looks up DIY shit on
Pinterest.
And I could absolutely see Guts driving away from his panic attacks in the dead of night.
I also imagined that Guts maybe tried
Reddit workout boards but rage quit. He told everyone that he left
because it was petty and stupid, and the dudes were amatures but really
it was all of the weird homophobic language that got to him on his bad
days in a weird lizard brain way.
ia with all of the above. especially casca as a DIYer, for some reason that seems weirdly perfect to me lol. and aw Guts I could def see that happening.
maybe he’d start his own series of workout videos. he’d be awkward and suck at looking into the camera and talk with a lot of ‘uhs’ and ‘so yeahs’ but he’d get plenty of views because a) he knows his shit and b) he’s hot and griffith is the one holding the camera and adjusting the lighting (and c) griffith links them to his however many thousand followers)
He’s always the one hugging someone to comfort them, never the one needing comfort. So he’ll hug Casca after she thinks he’s dead to reassure her, but he’ll twist out of her arms when she’s trying to comfort him in the river.
But deep down, somewhere he won’t admit to himself, he really, really wants to be wrapped in Guts’ big arms. Like letting Guts hold him and letting himself feel comforted would be one of the highest relationship achievements to unlock.
Post-torture, when Guts did get to hug him and hold him a few times, Griffith would’ve pushed him away if he could and a tiny part of him was glad he couldn’t.
Sex headcanon
Because I think it fits him on a meta-level, I think if Griff has sex-related trauma it’s more about feeling objectified and used rather than say sexual position. So he’d switch but wants to be the one in control regardless. With Guts he’d definitely lean towards power bottoming, and he’d lavish praise on Guts, talk about how gorgeous he is, etc. Guts wants to be looked-at and Griffith wants to do the looking so I think they’d be rly compatible from the start. But I also think it’s kind of a burden to him to always feel the need to be in control so there’s another related high-level relationship achievement to unlock in some happily ever after au.
Also doing this one for NeoGriff because I feel like there’s a significant change:
NeoGriff otoh would have sex solely to please his partner. What with the whole “the desired” thing, he would just become whatever his partner wanted him to be, because the only reason he’d be having sex anyway is to further his goal. So Charlotte gets this ready-made fantasy object who doesn’t give a fuck but is really good at pretending to, and so does anyone else he might ever end up getting laid by, for whatever goal-related reason. He’s still in control no matter what he’s doing what with being a god and all, but it’s all dictated by the other’s desires.
Other than Guts who is still the eternal exception.
General physical contact headcanon
Guts’ rare casual touches make his heart skip several beats and get warm and fuzzy. like look at this look right after:
that hand on his shoulder is like a heating pad in a -40 blizzard.
I think modern AU Guts would actually be a pretty chill driver. He might enjoy going for drives in a zen way, like he likes doing sword drills when he’s thinking too much. Traffic jams would rly piss him off though. He needs to feel like he’s doing something, not just sitting around and waiting. Also I think he’d go on night drives when he can’t sleep.
Relationship with/thoughts on _____ headcanon
lmao he wouldn’t have a clue. Griffith would be a social media god, and Guts would just be like, why the fuck. He only cares about validation from a few specific people he knows irl so likes and comments would mean nothing to him. Maybe he’d be subscribed to a few youtube channels about gym workouts or something, if that counts.
Also he might have an instagram account solely because Griffith made him make one to follow him with.
oh also while I’m at it
yesgabsstuff said:
Griffith’s English VA
spoke to my soul. All of his show tune choices were theme-on-point. But I
had never actually thought about what Griffith the person would be
like. And the cooking thing makes sense. I feel like the Hawks made fun
of him gently for being fussy with cooking but always loved the results.
same lol, the outtakes are worth watching for many reasons but especially his showtunes. also maybe they take turns cooking for the rest, and everyone looks forward to Griffith’s night. And misses it when he moves up in the world and starts living away from the Band.
Ok so assume Casca comes back, nothing awful happens, and they’re hanging out taking a well-deserved break in Elfhelm.
Farnese would start out extremely awkward around Casca because she was her babysitter and very familiar with her as the regressed traumatized shell. But she wouldn’t avoid her – at first she’d keep trying to take care of her in some ways. She’d bring her her meals while she’s first recovering from the mentally exhausting process of coming back and being whole again. Maybe she’d ask if Casca wants help brushing her hair, eg.
Casca… hmmm I can see her feeling vulnerable and, whether she remembers what happened in her regressed state or not, associating very positive feelings with Farnese. So while she might say she can do it herself, maybe even snap a little if Farnese is hovering, she’d follow up with something like, “but you can stay if you want.”
Anyway that would continue, Farnese would try to be her attendent and start being her friend. Casca would probably be the first one to open up to her, offering some fond yet sad reminiscing about the past. How she used to be a mercinary captain, what it felt like to wield a sword, dealing with Corkus – nothing about Griff and v little about Guts. Farnese would share parts of her own life, and they’d grow closer.
Casca would start doing sword drills and physical exercises to recover her physicality, and she’d start teaching Farnese some basics as she goes.
Idk I don’t want to do a play-by-play of their entire possible relationship span, but as far as early dynamics go as they tentatively grow closer, this seems like a good start.
Also I think Casca would make the first move. Probably after some serious emotional catharsis – magical therapy is one thing, actually talking to someone is another – and if it’s an attempt on her part to once again find another person to latch on to and shift her identity around, it could mean interesting things for their relationship as it progresses and they have to deal with some underlying unhealthy aspects. I always prefer complications to pure perfect relationships so I think it’d be interesting to explore, especially with Farnese as a caretaker type and Casca as a protective warrior type, kind of relying on each other for their sense of selves.
Especially since, well, they’ve both got histories of that – Casca with Griffith and then Guts, and Farnese with Serpico.
If that is the case though they could have a realization and work through it. Or they could just roll with it and still have a gr8 interesting relationship even if it’s not picture-perfect and they both see themselves as the protector of the other (Casca physically, becoming another sword, and Farnese emotionally, guarding Casca’s heart).
Or they could mitigate the potential unhealthiness by, you know, having other healthy relationships and friends and not solely relying on just one person for that feeling of validation. Casca and Guts could still be friends, and they’ve got the whole posse, and Farnese has Serpico and Schierke and everyone else too.
Lots of good + interesting possibilities, basically.
Okay I’m gonna say that Serpico dreaded balls and dances, not because he hated dancing with Farnese but because they had a tendency to lead to awkward moments and lots of duels.
But as of now in the story he finds himself missing them and thinking of them fondly. They were awkward and weird and troublesome but he misses that us-against-the-world feeling when he was with Farnese among all the other nobles.
She’s mostly a top (and dom with the right parnter) but can switch. She can let loose and get rough but it’s very partner dependant – the thing she most wants to do is make her partner melt into a puddle of pleasure. She wouldn’t start having sex until after she learned a few lessons about being considerate and taking joy and pride in helping others (yk bc she’s still a virgin in canon afaik) and I’m js that would def help make her a gr8 top and/or dom. Her sadistic urges haven’t gone away entirely but I’d say they’re mitigated by care for the other person and rather than solely getting off on like burning someone or flogging someone she could definitely get off on making the other person feel overwhelming pleasure.
The masochism seemed like a manifestation of guilt and shame to me so now that she’s more comfortable with herself that’s probably neither here nor there.
12.Jewelry headcanon
She was indifferent to it when she lived among nobles and had like chests full of it, though I imagine she had a few pieces given to her by her mother and father that she treasured more than the rest.
When she ran away to pursue Guts she occasionally found herself missing the luxury and finery. But when she returned to the Vandimion estate for those two days or so when she was arranging for a ship, she realized how heavy it weighed on her and missed the lightness of the men’s clothes she’d been wearing.
as much as i’d like to say he’s basically his english va and breaks out into song at every possible opportunity, i’m actually going to say that he can’t carry a tune. at all. he’s happy to sit back and listen to other people sing folksongs around the campfire when judeau breaks out the lute or whatever, but he never joins in. people think it’s because he’s just that little bit aloof but it’s because he knows he’ll embarrass himself.
idk whether it’s better for neogriff to now magically have a gr8 singing voice that he still never uses, or to continue to be woefully out of tune.
2. Cooking headcanon
He can cook. Before he got a study full of books he was adequate at throwing together a stew over a campfire the way most mercinaries probably are. Now he’s an expert on which spices go together and knows all the theory about optimal cooking times and how to get your dough to rise and flavour combinations etc, but never has to cook anymore.
NeoGriff retained all the theory and now that other ppl do the cooking he’s become a food critic.
I think he’d be a passively receptive kisser for the most part. I hc him as gay and I think he’d go for that type of dude Miura likes to write as side characters – yk like Roderick and Luca’s soldier bf who i s2g he tried hitting on – the kind of good-hearted trustworthy action-oriented type who knows what they want, and Serpico would go with whatever flow and rhythm they set.
Neo-Griffith is honestly really hard for me to understand. Like what’s going on in that mind of his, it’s so difficult to tell.
I’m not really sure about offended because he didn’t seem angry to me just dissapointed and slightly deflated but I do think he was shocked, much like most of us didn’t see that slap coming.
However I don’t think that Rickert’s refusal came as a complete surprise to Griffith, he’d already considered the possibility, he’d already said “It’s possible you may hate me after knowing the truth…”
But it’s interesting that he didn’t say probable. That’s most probably Griffith’s personal desires warping the truth of the facts around him. Griffith wants to go back to that stage in his life when he had it all figured out, and the Band of the Hawk was by his side. He wants to think that Rickert may chose to join him because he Wants Rickert to join him. All his actions with the Neo Band of the Hawk reflect his desire. He’s trying to rebuild what he’s lost. But They are empty replacements, and so to have Rickert back , a real part of the past he’s trying to recreate is important to him.
It reminds me of two lines from the Manga which have been recurrent themes
“Don’t abandon what you can’t replace”
“Even if you painstakingly put something back together piece by piece it will never be the same.”
They were said with respect to Guts but I feel are highly applicable to Griffith right now too. And is I feel one of the many parallels between them that we get.
So in conclusion, yes the slap was definitely a harsh reality check for Griffith. Which is precisely why he’s playing it cool and saying it doesn’t matter. But yes he’s shaken and contemplative now.
When he first saw Rickert in Falconia, You could see the enthusiasm in Griffith’s body language. It was self delusional yes. But he dropped everything and practically ran to him. He’d obviously been looking forward to seeing him.
Also I think he’d taken it for granted that the fact that Rickert came at all meant he had already decided to accept. I mean most people don’t come all that way, braving monsters and climbing a million stairs just to deliver a well deserved slap.
He opens the conversation grandiosely, many words and poetry. Exposition and greeting. He’s already expecting things to go up from here, they have been for sometime after all. Nothing has changed he wants to believe that. Then the refusal comes and all that comes out for the rest of the interaction is a muted ‘so it is’ because I think he’s coming to come to terms with the fact that truly? Everything has changed.
@bthump Because you always have the best neo-griffith thoughts. 🙂
oh my gooood i got to the bolded bit and started practically rubbing my hands together in glee at your insight. this whole answer is amazing.
The exploration of identity with NeoGriffith has the potential to be so so good. The way it does seem like he wants Rickert to join him because having a former Hawk accept the NeoBand would be a kind of validation that he needs on some level.
The way Rickert phrases his refusal is one of my favourite moments because of the emphasis he places on how it’s not his Band, and Griffith isn’t his Griffith, and the small differences between insignias matter. And all Griffith can do is passively agree. Now that you’ve drawn the comparison between the NeoBand and those significant lines about forcing back what was and abandoning irreplacable things I am dying to see where that leads even more.
Also it occurs to me that this is the first scene we see where NeoGriff is taken aback and not in control – the way Rickert slaps him, the way he has no response to Rickert’s speech – since the very first scene where his heart started beating and he saved Casca and went ‘wtf’ to himself. Add the fact that he apparently didn’t see the slap coming despite his magic powers of being essentially untouchable, and I think it’s a fair guess that his beating heart and surviving emotions are throwing him off his game again here. (Which incidentally is another solid sign that it’s not the fetus screwing with him bc i doubt very much the fetus gives a fuck about Rickert.)
ty for tagging me! I don’t think there was really much to add to your answer so this is mostly me nodding vigorously and flailing a little lol.
gatsca said:
i mean it only makes sense
blackswords said:
we can only hope
seisans said:
a solid theory but this also explains why i kinda wanna see zodd and griff get it on
yk for a manga that has a reputation for being shocking and gritty and dark and fucked up and disturbing there is a sad lack of weird (consensual) monster sex
also i low-key ship griffith/every apostle. well every dude apostle. like they’re canonically all in pseudo-spiritual lust/love with him so i just feel like there’s an empty niche in fandom that could be filled with weird, faux-deep, religion-y, god/monsterous-disciple action.
another reply cut for fandom bitterness lol
seisans said: yeah, people just fucking can’t read,
basically. or they only remember what they want to remember, and
interpret things however’s most convenient for them
yeah p much. which i mean, whatever, most people read stuff that way and emphasize the parts they like and ignore or skim whatever they don’t, so in general i couldn’t care less about people doing that. but considering how condescending and confrontational and awful so many berserk fans are despite being completely, factually wrong, i rly have no problem pointing and laughing at their lack of reading comprehension lol
seisans said:
she lit says i tried
to convince myself that griffith wanted you *just for your strength*
which implies that he actually wants him for something more than his
usefulness so it can’t even be using him to reach his dream
RIGHT?
honestly while I was reading Berserk recently after having only read a pretty poor scanlation like, about eight years ago, I had all these expectations going in after browsing the tv tropes page (always a mistake, i know) and checking out a few other areas of fandom. Like I assumed that Griffith’s irrationality around Guts was only implied in his actions rather than directly talked about 50 times, I assumed that Guts’ complicated feelings mixed in with his rage like pain and sorrow and fear etc were only shown in facial expressions and stuff rather than described by Puck the empath, I assumed that whatever process turned people into monsters after a sacrifice was mysterious and vague rather than explained and shown in detail, etc etc
I swear a huge chunk of the issues that I see heavy debate over, or fans flat out denying, are explicitly stated in the text lmao. like i basically assumed there was way more ambiguity in Berserk than there actually is bc of the way the fandom is, but nah most of the time Berserk is actually surprisingly straightforward.
Like this is the perfect example. why do you still see so many fans argue that griffith just wanted guts’ strength to help him achieve his dream when casca literally states on the page that that is clearly not the case, complete with pointing out why that doesn’t make sense.
ok wait – zodd is the new guts since he’s captain of the hawk’s raiders and big and tough and neogriff won his loyalty when he fought him in a dream and broke off his horn
and locus is definitely the new casca what with him being ridiculously loyal to griff and the second in command (iirc) and totally in love with griffith and willing to fight anyone who even looks at him funny
so zodd and locus trying to get over griffith by hooking up is totally gonna be a thing right
I think a part of Griffith’s motivation for making the sacrifice is actually Guts’ death tbh.
It’s mostly the guilt trip, but I do think getting to sacrifice Guts along with the rest is a feature, not a bug for him.
Here’s the thing: Griffith is ridiculously in love with Guts. Before the year of torture he was willing to risk his life (and all-consuming dream) for him, Guts made him irrational, Guts leaving him drove him to self-destructive despair, Guts was the only one he shared the dark underbelly of his dream with, etc etc. Like by all metrics, Griffith’s love for Guts was already pretty epic.
Then add a year of torture during which Guts is the only thought that occupies his mind and keeps him sane. Guts is like lightning in his mind and now the dream, which had driven every aspect of his life previously, is dull. Many of his thoughts towards Guts are negative (”sorrow,” and “malice” are some of the words he associates with him eg,) and when he first sees Guts again his immediate reaction is to strangle him.
But all it takes to move his hand from Guts’ throat to Guts’ hand is Guts expressing emotion towards him by crying over him. Like, Guts takes him on a seriously extreme emotional roller coaster.
The moment that finally unlocks the behelit and calls the Godhand down isn’t when he lets go of his dream and it’s not when he thinks Guts is going to leave him again and it’s not when he tries to kill himself. It’s when Guts touches him again after all that. “Never again with you.”
I’ve talked about how I love that before but I’ve never rly said why, and really it’s because I think it shows that what finally truly sends Griffith into despair is knowing how utterly emotionally fucked up he is for Guts. To split hairs, it’s not because he thought Guts would leave him, it’s because he knew that if Guts left it would destroy him. It’s because of how Guts gained “such a strong hold over [him].”
Because he’s irrational, because he’s weak, because Guts overtook the dream by a mile in the last year of torture, because if Guts leaves him Griffith will basically become an empty shell (as we could surmise from Griffith’s vision/dream/hallucination of a future with Casca), because Griffith is so wholly and utterly emotionally dependent on Guts, because even after Guts’ touch makes him feel so much despair the Godhand shows up he reaches to save Guts from falling – that’s what made Guts the person Griffith “loved and hated the most,” to quote the Godhand on a parallel situation.
In that last glimpse Guts sees of Griffith, he’s smiling. I interpret his expression as tender – I’d say there’s love in his eyes – but not regretful or agonized or horrified at himself or the circumstances that caused him to make a choice like this. This is me taking this concept and running with it but I think if it was anyone else in the Band he’d laid eyes on in that moment, he wouldn’t be smiling. He’d probably be unable to look them in the eye, he’d feel ashamed, he’d feel, if not regret, then at least inner conflict and emotional turmoil. But when he sees Guts, he looks serene in his choice.
And I think this is because, like the other sacrifices we see (Count’s wife, Rosine’s abusive parents, Eggman’s world that shunned him, Ganeshka’s assassinating son) Griffith sacrificed Guts because at least part of him wanted Guts gone. Guts was the source of the final nail in the coffin of despair, and Griffith was at the point where a part of him hated Guts because, ironically, he loved Guts so much.
So yeah I don’t think Griffith chose to sacrifice Guts out of malice or jealousy/possessiveness or betrayal exactly, but because he loved him to the point where he couldn’t function without him, and I think he resented (to put it mildly) that dependence. Believing Guts would leave him was his final wake-up call to how lost he was without Guts. So when the Godhand offered him an escape from his despair and a way to cut it off at the source, he agreed.
(Which is not to diminish the driving force of guilt behind his choice, but I don’t think his complicated yet overwhelmingly powerful feelings towards Guts can be disregarded either.)
I could be wrong, but I feel like this might be, in part, a response to my rant, and I just want to say that I do agree with you on this. The reason I spend so much time talking about Griffith’s guilt is because a large portion of the fandom doesn’t seem to understand that what he did wasn’t him succumbing to his evil/showing his true nature/what have you, but him letting his weakness get the best of him–to put it simply. But of course his reasons for sacrificing the BotH can’t be boiled down to one emotion, be it guilt or whatever else.
Like you mentioned, part of the appeal of becoming one of the God Hand is you get your emotions stripped away. And Griffith is someone who, I feel, feels things very strongly, but constantly tries to deny that to himself and others. Because he wants to believe that his emotions don’t control him. “Just a pebble in my path” and all that.
Except he couldn’t with Guts. Not only was his obsession with Guts obvious, but it literally ruined his life once, and could have very well ruined it again, and again, and again. He would have “let it happen,” so to speak, it was an obvious weakness. And Guts seemed indecisive to the point where it was clear that he would keep unintentionally playing with Griffith’s heart till it destroyed him.
Griffith hated Guts for leaving him, but he also hated himself for how much it affected him, so the God Hand’s offer was attractive in more than one way.
Like you, I don’t think he regretted his decision. I just don’t think it was an easy decision to make, because that would defeat the point of sacrificing something to gain something else.
Sorry, I’m bad at wording things properly, and always seem to leave out something important, plus I didn’t add anything new to this post but tl;dr I agree with you. And I also apologise if this post had nothing to do with what I was talking about earlier this week, it just reminded me of a lot of points that were brought up.
Actually funnily enough I had a post like this sitting in my drafts for like two weeks but it sounded stilted so I never posted it. Then reading a few things (including I think your post) inspired me to re-write it and focus it better. So not exactly a response but more like, hmm I see a few people talking about the Eclipse sacrifice so now’s a good time to talk about this one aspect of it that I think is awesome that I haven’t seen mentioned. So I’ll add a belated thanks for the inspiration 🙂
But yeah I pretty much agree with you. I’ve gone on at length before about Griffith’s guilt-based motivation and I totally agree that it was not an easy decision (i mean there’s a reason the godhand had to pull out all the psychological stops to manipulate him, and one thing I totally believe is that if Guts had been beside him the whole time he couldn’t’ve done it). Like the idea that he was rubbing his hands with glee and eager to jump on the opportunity as soon as a few magic weirdoes showed up to offer him the chance to exchange everyone he loves for a castle is ridiculous lol, and I’ve seen that belief way too often too. As much as there’s a reason most of the Band went, “oh shit” when they heard the Godhand’s offer, there’s also a reason Guts didn’t believe it until like 10 minutes after Griffith agreed lol, and it’s not because he’s a naive dumbass, it’s because he knew Griffith genuinely cared and he believed in him.
“wasn’t him succumbing to his evil/showing his true nature/what have you, but him letting his weakness get the best of him” that’s a really good way of putting it
I’m always glad when you give us all an opportunity to think and talk about something new, which is pretty much always, so thank you for that!
Also, that thing you said about Guts knowing Griffith well enough to know that he wouldn’t do something like that under normal circumstances kind of reminded me of the scene where Griffith asks Guts if he thinks he’s cruel. And I feel like there’s more to be said here, but I’ll just leave it at that.
omg nice connection. Honestly if Guts’ Most Significant Moment That Changed Everything was overhearing Griffith’s speech, then imo Griffith’s MSMTCE was Guts’ non-reply to “do you think I’m cruel?” It keeps coming back to that.
I think a part of Griffith’s motivation for making the sacrifice is actually Guts’ death tbh.
It’s mostly the guilt trip, but I do think getting to sacrifice Guts along with the rest is a feature, not a bug for him.
Here’s the thing: Griffith is ridiculously in love with Guts. Before the year of torture he was willing to risk his life (and all-consuming dream) for him, Guts made him irrational, Guts leaving him drove him to self-destructive despair, Guts was the only one he shared the dark underbelly of his dream with, etc etc. Like by all metrics, Griffith’s love for Guts was already pretty epic.
Then add a year of torture during which Guts is the only thought that occupies his mind and keeps him sane. Guts is like lightning in his mind and now the dream, which had driven every aspect of his life previously, is dull. Many of his thoughts towards Guts are negative (”sorrow,” and “malice” are some of the words he associates with him eg,) and when he first sees Guts again his immediate reaction is to strangle him.
But all it takes to move his hand from Guts’ throat to Guts’ hand is Guts expressing emotion towards him by crying over him. Like, Guts takes him on a seriously extreme emotional roller coaster.
The moment that finally unlocks the behelit and calls the Godhand down isn’t when he lets go of his dream and it’s not when he thinks Guts is going to leave him again and it’s not when he tries to kill himself. It’s when Guts touches him again after all that. “Never again with you.”
I’ve talked about how I love that before but I’ve never rly said why, and really it’s because I think it shows that what finally truly sends Griffith into despair is knowing how utterly emotionally fucked up he is for Guts. To split hairs, it’s not because he thought Guts would leave him, it’s because he knew that if Guts left it would destroy him. It’s because of how Guts gained “such a strong hold over [him].”
Because he’s irrational, because he’s weak, because Guts overtook the dream by a mile in the last year of torture, because if Guts leaves him Griffith will basically become an empty shell (as we could surmise from Griffith’s vision/dream/hallucination of a future with Casca), because Griffith is so wholly and utterly emotionally dependent on Guts, because even after Guts’ touch makes him feel so much despair the Godhand shows up he reaches to save Guts from falling – that’s what made Guts the person Griffith “loved and hated the most,” to quote the Godhand on a parallel situation.
In that last glimpse Guts sees of Griffith, he’s smiling. I interpret his expression as tender – I’d say there’s love in his eyes – but not regretful or agonized or horrified at himself or the circumstances that caused him to make a choice like this. This is me taking this concept and running with it but I think if it was anyone else in the Band he’d laid eyes on in that moment, he wouldn’t be smiling. He’d probably be unable to look them in the eye, he’d feel ashamed, he’d feel, if not regret, then at least inner conflict and emotional turmoil. But when he sees Guts, he looks serene in his choice.
And I think this is because, like the other sacrifices we see (Count’s wife, Rosine’s abusive parents, Eggman’s world that shunned him, Ganeshka’s assassinating son) Griffith sacrificed Guts because at least part of him wanted Guts gone. Guts was the source of the final nail in the coffin of despair, and Griffith was at the point where a part of him hated Guts because, ironically, he loved Guts so much.
So yeah I don’t think Griffith chose to sacrifice Guts out of malice or jealousy/possessiveness or betrayal exactly, but because he loved him to the point where he couldn’t function without him, and I think he resented (to put it mildly) that dependence. Believing Guts would leave him was his final wake-up call to how lost he was without Guts. So when the Godhand offered him an escape from his despair and a way to cut it off at the source, he agreed.
(Which is not to diminish the driving force of guilt behind his choice, but I don’t think his complicated yet overwhelmingly powerful feelings towards Guts can be disregarded either.)
I could be wrong, but I feel like this might be, in part, a response to my rant, and I just want to say that I do agree with you on this. The reason I spend so much time talking about Griffith’s guilt is because a large portion of the fandom doesn’t seem to understand that what he did wasn’t him succumbing to his evil/showing his true nature/what have you, but him letting his weakness get the best of him–to put it simply. But of course his reasons for sacrificing the BotH can’t be boiled down to one emotion, be it guilt or whatever else.
Like you mentioned, part of the appeal of becoming one of the God Hand is you get your emotions stripped away. And Griffith is someone who, I feel, feels things very strongly, but constantly tries to deny that to himself and others. Because he wants to believe that his emotions don’t control him. “Just a pebble in my path” and all that.
Except he couldn’t with Guts. Not only was his obsession with Guts obvious, but it literally ruined his life once, and could have very well ruined it again, and again, and again. He would have “let it happen,” so to speak, it was an obvious weakness. And Guts seemed indecisive to the point where it was clear that he would keep unintentionally playing with Griffith’s heart till it destroyed him.
Griffith hated Guts for leaving him, but he also hated himself for how much it affected him, so the God Hand’s offer was attractive in more than one way.
Like you, I don’t think he regretted his decision. I just don’t think it was an easy decision to make, because that would defeat the point of sacrificing something to gain something else.
Sorry, I’m bad at wording things properly, and always seem to leave out something important, plus I didn’t add anything new to this post but tl;dr I agree with you. And I also apologise if this post had nothing to do with what I was talking about earlier this week, it just reminded me of a lot of points that were brought up.
Actually funnily enough I had a post like this sitting in my drafts for like two weeks but it sounded stilted so I never posted it. Then reading a few things (including I think your post) inspired me to re-write it and focus it better. So not exactly a response but more like, hmm I see a few people talking about the Eclipse sacrifice so now’s a good time to talk about this one aspect of it that I think is awesome that I haven’t seen mentioned. So I’ll add a belated thanks for the inspiration 🙂
But yeah I pretty much agree with you. I’ve gone on at length before about Griffith’s guilt-based motivation and I totally agree that it was not an easy decision (i mean there’s a reason the godhand had to pull out all the psychological stops to manipulate him, and one thing I totally believe is that if Guts had been beside him the whole time he couldn’t’ve done it). Like the idea that he was rubbing his hands with glee and eager to jump on the opportunity as soon as a few magic weirdoes showed up to offer him the chance to exchange everyone he loves for a castle is ridiculous lol, and I’ve seen that belief way too often too. As much as there’s a reason most of the Band went, “oh shit” when they heard the Godhand’s offer, there’s also a reason Guts didn’t believe it until like 10 minutes after Griffith agreed lol, and it’s not because he’s a naive dumbass, it’s because he knew Griffith genuinely cared and he believed in him.
“wasn’t him succumbing to his evil/showing his true nature/what have you, but him letting his weakness get the best of him” that’s a really good way of putting it
@yoikami said:
He said something like
“because of you I almost lost the sight of my dream”, like he wouldn’t
act like that to anyone but Guts, clearly.
ikkkr. ngl “Among thousands of comrades and tens of thousands of enemies you’re the only one… you’re the only one… who made me forget my dream.” is one of my favourite lines/moments in anything ever.
Unless you’re referring to the other amazing line, “But now as he shines so glaring within me… the junk* grows dull.”
*his dream
I think a part of Griffith’s motivation for making the sacrifice is actually Guts’ death tbh.
It’s mostly the guilt trip, but I do think getting to sacrifice Guts along with the rest is a feature, not a bug for him.
Here’s the thing: Griffith is ridiculously in love with Guts. Before the year of torture he was willing to risk his life (and all-consuming dream) for him, Guts made him irrational, Guts leaving him drove him to self-destructive despair, Guts was the only one he shared the dark underbelly of his dream with, etc etc. Like by all metrics, Griffith’s love for Guts was already pretty epic.
Then add a year of torture during which Guts is the only thought that occupies his mind and keeps him sane. Guts is like lightning in his mind and now the dream, which had driven every aspect of his life previously, is dull. Many of his thoughts towards Guts are negative (”sorrow,” and “malice” are some of the words he associates with him eg,) and when he first sees Guts again his immediate reaction is to strangle him.
But all it takes to move his hand from Guts’ throat to Guts’ hand is Guts expressing emotion towards him by crying over him. Like, Guts takes him on a seriously extreme emotional roller coaster.
The moment that finally unlocks the behelit and calls the Godhand down isn’t when he lets go of his dream and it’s not when he thinks Guts is going to leave him again and it’s not when he tries to kill himself. It’s when Guts touches him again after all that. “Never again with you.”
I’ve talked about how I love that before but I’ve never rly said why, and really it’s because I think it shows that what finally truly sends Griffith into despair is knowing how utterly emotionally fucked up he is for Guts. To split hairs, it’s not because he thought Guts would leave him, it’s because he knew that if Guts left it would destroy him. It’s because of how Guts gained “such a strong hold over [him].”
Because he’s irrational, because he’s weak, because Guts overtook the dream by a mile in the last year of torture, because if Guts leaves him Griffith will basically become an empty shell (as we could surmise from Griffith’s vision/dream/hallucination of a future with Casca), because Griffith is so wholly and utterly emotionally dependent on Guts, because even after Guts’ touch makes him feel so much despair the Godhand shows up he reaches to save Guts from falling – that’s what made Guts the person Griffith “loved and hated the most,” to quote the Godhand on a parallel situation.
In that last glimpse Guts sees of Griffith, he’s smiling. I interpret his expression as tender – I’d say there’s love in his eyes – but not regretful or agonized or horrified at himself or the circumstances that caused him to make a choice like this. This is me taking this concept and running with it but I think if it was anyone else in the Band he’d laid eyes on in that moment, he wouldn’t be smiling. He’d probably be unable to look them in the eye, he’d feel ashamed, he’d feel, if not regret, then at least inner conflict and emotional turmoil. But when he sees Guts, he looks serene in his choice.
And I think this is because, like the other sacrifices we see (Count’s wife, Rosine’s abusive parents, Eggman’s world that shunned him, Ganeshka’s assassinating son) Griffith sacrificed Guts because at least part of him wanted Guts gone. Guts was the source of the final nail in the coffin of despair, and Griffith was at the point where a part of him hated Guts because, ironically, he loved Guts so much.
So yeah I don’t think Griffith chose to sacrifice Guts out of malice or jealousy/possessiveness or betrayal exactly, but because he loved him to the point where he couldn’t function without him, and I think he resented (to put it mildly) that dependence. Believing Guts would leave him was his final wake-up call to how lost he was without Guts. So when the Godhand offered him an escape from his despair and a way to cut it off at the source, he agreed.
(Which is not to diminish the driving force of guilt behind his choice, but I don’t think his complicated yet overwhelmingly powerful feelings towards Guts can be disregarded either.)
also speaking of that scene in the dungeons i quickly checked the bit where Guts kills Donovan to see if I could see any scary hound-ness there but didn’t really (he just looks like a hurt kid imo). But tbh the way Guts cuts out the torturer’s tongue reminds me of how he stabbed Donovan through the mouth.
Both kind of violently phallic and both bc Guts doesn’t want to hear what they’re saying.
Well so far these are probably my favourite pages of the Fantasia arc (+ the slap ofc)
Rickert’s speech as a whole is just breathtaking, Rickert pointing out the difference in the insignias, the present tense of “I am led by the white-winged Griffith” showing he still respects Griffith as he was but considers this guy not to be him, Griffith’s only words are an acknowledgement of that difference – “…so it is” -, the hair over Griffith’s eyes suggesting he is feeling feelings and we just don’t get to know what they are, Rickert’s smile of pride when he talks about the Band he considers himself a part of…
it’s just so good
I personally don’t feel that whatever is being shaded over in Griffith’s face is malice.
I think it’s him having to face the consequences, or at least feel them up close for the first time after the eclipse granted him the powers to enable his escapism. I think Griffith is slowly coming to realise that the numbness he weaponised and clung to on transforming to Femto is sort of out of commission as of his rebirth.
But he’s going to pretend it’s still there for his audiences’ benefit right till the end.
I am actually looking forward to Griffith looking back on what he did and actually looking at it from the human perspective he now has. Back when he made the decision he wasn’t even close to thinking rationally , the decision was influenced by despair and the mindscape fuckery Conrad and Ubik were indulging in and I always saw Griffith’s decision more as motivated from wanting an escape from his current emotional mess rather than a grab for power–but I digress.
My point was that the Eclipse wasn’t a result of Griffith’s clear thinking or reflection which we know he has always been capable of because he wasn’t in the state of mind to be able to do that then. But now he does. Honestly Neo- Grifffith most probably has a fair bit of time on his hand s right now. And I’d love for him to get thinking.
Put in perspective the fact that the nameless bodies he’d decided to ‘pile up’ back then to try and give meaning to the cries of the mangled corpses pleading with him in his mindscape at that very moment- were not nameless or faceless.
These were people he knew, had memories with, had cared about.
And having Rickert come up and spell it out, REMIND him.
I want that to fuck him up. And I’m pretty sure it’s happening too.
Guilt has always been an emotion Griffith feels strongly, maybe even one of the strongest tributaries to his ambition.Its what caused the Gennon incident and it’s arguably what caused the Eclipse.
Bring that back Miura, Please.
P.S. – I am a hundred percent sure it was Locus not Griffith who sent Rakshas after Rickert. Like dude was raving mad about that slap.Broke a wall.
Yk, take the “so you could bury your fragile human heart” line to the count, add Puck pointing out that the Count is still human even though he denies it (like you said in that other response – apostles are in a way almost extra human, I totally agree), add Rosine fucking up because Jill was in danger, especially add Ganeshka’s terrified isolation when he ascended to a higher plane, and add Femto’s failure to kill Guts and NeoGriff’s heartbeat, and I’m js the groundwork is so laid out for NeoGriffith to start demonstrating some intriguing emotions (to the audience if not other people) that you could build a skyscraper on that foundation.
I could see him questioning his own identity after going through 3 magical transformation sequences and Rickert straight up calling him not-Griffith, the way Ganeshka started screaming “WHO AM I.” I could definitely see isolation. I could definitely see longing – for Guts obviously, for an equal in general – and of course if the guilt made a comeback (and esp after Rickert’s speech I could see that too) I’d be ecstatic.
I could see him feeling cut off from his past as a human (or viewing it like a dream a la what the Godhand said as he transformed) and growing perturbed by that rather than content.
Like okay when he became Femto his heart “froze.” Hence the “strange… I don’t feel anything” while the Band were gruesomely dying etc. How that works with wanting to hurt Guts and then not being able to kill him is anyone’s guess, but we know that when he became NeoGriffith his heart started beating again. I could accept, if Miura wants to go this direction, that he’s basically Griffith now (I mean he’s he’s made of flesh and blood again rather than astral plane evil, and his frozen heart has thawed right back up), just ascended to a higher plane of existence and therefore much more capable of distancing himself from human concerns. At least until his past comes for him.
(Also as an aside yeah I totally agree that a big part of his motivation for making the sacrifice was escaping his own emotional vulnerability – both wrt the guilt and wrt his love for Guts.)
Well so far these are probably my favourite pages of the Fantasia arc (+ the slap ofc)
Rickert’s speech as a whole is just breathtaking, Rickert pointing out the difference in the insignias, the present tense of “I am led by the white-winged Griffith” showing he still respects Griffith as he was but considers this guy not to be him, Griffith’s only words are an acknowledgement of that difference – “…so it is” -, the hair over Griffith’s eyes suggesting he is feeling feelings and we just don’t get to know what they are, Rickert’s smile of pride when he talks about the Band he considers himself a part of…
you're the only one 