i think berserk is walking that “revenge will destroy you” route and im not against a kind of emotional catharsis here but that would ideally be between guts and griffith and like that kind of reconciliation (given thats the angle were taking here) would leave an awful taste in my mouth bc of the eclipse rape lol.
tbh this is why i hope berserk isn’t so much going for a ‘revenge is bad and futile’ thing as it’s going for a ‘guts getting revenge in this particular case is bad and futile because it’s not his right to get revenge for the eclipse and also he wants revenge for the wrong reasons, ie bc it’s an easy outlet for his very complex feelings, but casca’s the hawk representative who never abandoned the band and also the person who suffered most so she’s the one who should get revenge.’
kind of suggested in part here at least:
and yea youre right about the
railroading thing ughhgh that really gets me (im a broken record but it
reminds me of vriska and like that shit gets me). it feels pretty hallow
when you have to acknowledge this in the context of the whole story
especially bc griffiths helplessness to the waters of fate and destiny
isnt emphasized as overtly tragic as it really is. which is a valid
storytelling choice ic it just, again, gets me.
also femto is the consequence of guts actions and its clearly framed that way idk what people get out of insisting otherwise.
yeah i feel you, griffith’s narrative is so sad to me, but a lot of what’s tragic about it isn’t in your face.
and yeah it’s like, you can say guts didn’t deserve to experience the eclipse, which is obviously true bc v few people deserve that shit, and def not for making a mistake based on low self esteem lol, but narratively it’s the consequence of his actions bc berserk is a very dark story. guts is the main character who actively made a choice which set all the tragedy dominos falling. it’s even ironically fitting – his choice to “abandon” the hawks and griffith resulted in losing everyone permanently.
like i think ppl equate saying the eclipse/femto/griffith’s breakdown/etc is a consequence of guts’ actions to saying either a) guts deserved to suffer and/or b) if this happened in real life it would be right to blame guts for everything lol, neither of which are statements that necessarily follow the first one, and are clearly untrue. but fiction operates by different rules than reality.
though actually while i’m on this subject, I do kind of have a big issue with how this frames griffith.
cut bc this probably doesn’t really make sense lol, i’m rambling and i’m not entirely sure how to explain my thought process lol
like, if pre-eclipse griffith was a symbol of guts’ potential to have fulfilling relationships and find a place where he belongs, that guts then totally fucked up by “abandoning,” and post-eclipse neogriffith is a symbol of guts throwing away his potential to have fulfilling relationships by pursuing a stupid self-destructive dream, then there’s a bit of an awkward contradiction:
during the golden age, guts distancing himself from griffith was a bad thing that caused all his problems. after the eclipse, guts distancing himself from griffith is the narratively correct choice. this makes technical plot sense because in between griffith transformed into a demon lol, but thematically i think it’s unsatisfying.
griffith has essentially been replaced with guts’ protective relationship with casca. he fucked up and abandoned her, just like he fucked up and abandoned griffith, but now he’s making up for it by sticking around and protecting her – something he never got a chance to do w/ griffith. like, there was no magical cure to heal griffith, no long journey of personal growth, nada.
ignoring who could be
blamed for what if berserk happened in real life, bc this has nothing to do with morals or literal interpersonal responsibilities, from a fictional
storytelling perspective guts destroyed griffith when he made the wrong
choice by leaving. griffith’s year of torture and then eclipse causing
despair is the direct consequence of guts’ narrative mistake, and femto/ngriff
is an antagonist of guts’ own making.
so to then say that the right
thing for guts to do is to try to forget about him rubs me the wrong
way. it’d be one thing if griffith was dead and there was nothing guts
could do except try to avoid repeating his mistakes, but he’s alive and
currently acting on the world in a capacity that is, at least by some
standards, negative lol. the way stories work, that’s guts’ problem to
fix.
so if the thematic takeaway is that guts should just ignore
neogriffith and move on, and if he goes back to obsessing over him
that’s bad, then… i’m not satisfied with that lol.
also like, if the manga
decided to draw a very clear and explicit dividing line between human
griffith and neogriffith, essentially declaring everything human
griffith represented to guts as dead, that would also be one thing, but miura deliberately muddies the waters both by teasing the audience about
his beating heart and by guts’ emotional conflict a la “the instant I saw him I’d forgotten my
urge to kill,” and “longing,” and by continuing to utilize the light/dark imagery for their relationship, and having guts reminisce about original griffith after seeing him, etc.
so there’s this sense to me that neogriffith is simultaneously a symbol of guts’ self destructive dream (revenge, fighting stronger and stronger enemies, becoming griffith’s equal) and a symbol of guts’ mistake in pursuing that dream the first time – a symbol of what he threw away by leaving – and to me it feels unsatisfyingly contradictory.
and then on a purely emotional level lol it frustrates me that if the moral of the story really is that guts needs to move on and forget about the past and griffith and focus on the relationships he does have, then that means griffith was essentially a casualty of guts’ one step forward two steps back style character development. a character, from the perspective of his relationship to guts, who existed to be a consequence of guts’ mistake and teach guts a lesson through his destruction. and that just strikes me as unfair lol. idt guts should get to move on when griffith never had the opportunity – OR when griffith did take his opportunity ie the sacrifice, if we’re counting that, because then griffith moving on is evil but guts moving on is good.
and yeah maybe it’s a statement about moving on by suppressing your emotions vs moving on by forming new relationships, but griffith was railroaded by the narrative lol, he never got the chance to move on by forming new relationships, he was irreparably fucked the day after guts left. so if that’s the case then it’s weak.
but idk maybe i’m looking at this from entirely the wrong perspective. idk i’m just thinking outloud again rly. and until we find out what happens when casca has her mind back, it’s too early to draw any real conclusions anyway.
While I agree that leaving behind the Hawks/his family in pursuit of proving his “worthiness” was misguided, I’m hesitant to call it a “mistake.” Living (and dying) as an accessory solely for the benefit of someone else isn’t particularly good or healthy.
I’d agree if Guts’ life with the Hawks was ever framed as “living and dying as an accessory solely for the benefit of someone else,” but it isn’t.
I assume you’re referencing this:
Which is Griffith’s answer when Guts asks why Griffith risked his life to save him.
Basically Griffith denying any emotional investment in Guts by emphasizing his role as a military leader who sends people to their deaths regularly.
Guts calls him out on basically lying here three years later, in the post-Zodd conversation.
So yeah, while this is nice foreshadowing for the Eclipse, it’s explicitly not how Griffith actually feels wrt Guts, and Guts figures that out.
Guts was never just an accessory to Griffith’s dream, and there was a point where Guts knew that perfectly well, before the overheard Promrose Hall speech fucked it all up lol.
And just to add a few more things:
even if Griffith really did see Guts as just another soldier who could help him achieve his dream, I don’t think it would necessarily be unhealthy for Guts to stay with the Hawks. Being a mercenary is a line of work, and being a mercenary with the Hawks is a line of work with much greater rewards, much greater camraderie and friendship, and a greater sense of purpose than being a mercenary with any other band. Guts comments early on about how the Hawks are different than any other mercenary band he’s fought with because they’re happier, because they have a personal stake in Griffith’s dream.
Guts doesn’t particularly care about being raised into the peerage, or even about the idea of Griffith becoming a King beyond thinking Griffith is “absolutely incredible” for having such a lofty dream and actually getting close to achieving it, but he does care about his friends, and during the three years in which he presumably felt like he was mainly just doing a job, he was happier than he’s ever been before or since.
So imo it would still be the case that Guts would find greater personal fulfillment in a mercenary band full of happy people who love him as a friend and respect him as a leader, rather than wandering around alone crossing swords with anyone who looks strong – specifically, it’s implied in a flashback during the Wyald fight, monsters like Zodd:
Again, it’s another little piece of sad irony, knowing how Guts spent two years after the Eclipse.
And lol I know this response is getting long, sorry, but w/e I love talking about this shit so one more last little thing:
Griffith also doesn’t see any of the Hawks as just accessories to his dream, let alone Guts. He cares about the Hawks more than probably any other mercenary leader.
I mean this is a dude who prostituted himself to a pedophile to prevent
as many deaths in the line of duty as possible, and self-harmed in a
river while monologuing about how he has to win for the sake of the men
who’ve died for his dream.
He represses the hell out of his guilt and emotional attachment to them, because they die a lot and if he didn’t he’d be a wreck, but the very fact that he could offer them up as sacrifices means they were all extremely important to him:
Ok, this is my long and thorough explanation of how Guts’ decision to leave the Hawks was ultimately shown to be a mistake.
I’ve been kind of meaning to write this for a while because I tend to take this statement as read in a lot of my meta and I wanted to have something to point to for the sake of clarification whenever necessary lol. Also jsyk this isn’t quite as long a read as it looks bc there are a lot of illustrative images.
And before I get into it I just want to make something clear: when I say it was a mistake I’m not saying that it’s a decision that reflects badly on Guts. It reflects many of Guts’ issues, and it stems largely from growing up with an abusive father figure, but based on the information Guts had at the time, and based on his personality and his values it was a reasonable decision to make from his perspective.
It’s just one that he ended up wholeheartedly regretting for very good reasons.
This basically rests on three premises:
1. Guts was happy and felt personally fulfilled with the Hawks.
2.
Guts chose to leave for one reason and one reason only: Griffith’s Promrose Hall speech made him feel inadequate.
3. Griffith’s speech absolutely didn’t reflect either his actual feelings about Guts or a particularly worthwhile life philosophy, and eventually Guts comes to understand this.
So let’s demonstrate the first part, starting from when Guts joined the Hawks.
Cue the waterfight scene with Griffith. And afterwards:
Then Rickert knocks him off the step and congratulates him on already having ten men under his command.
Guts is happy with the Hawks. After only a week with them he’s already chilling out about being touched, he’s feeling accepted, he’s responsible for others and he’s rising to that responsibility. He reflects on the night he killed Gambino and fled his first home, thinks “I still don’t have an answer to that question [of where am I going?]…” but then when Rickert congratulates him he thinks, “for now…”
For now, he’ll make his home with the Hawks. He tells Rickert to call him Guts and their clasped hands get their own panel. He’s forging new relationships and bonds with people, beginning to heal from past trauma, and growing as a person. He’s no longer swinging his sword just to survive, but as part of a unit, to help his friends and comrades survive and thrive too.
Three years later, when Casca accuses him of not changing since he joined them, of not caring about his comrades, he’s incensed.
He’s proud of having changed. He’s proud of his place in the Hawks, of being their raider captain, of Griffith’s faith in him. Casca’s words wound him because he has deep seated insecurities related to being an outsider.
His rivalry with Casca draws these insecurities out but overall he is very happy with the Hawks, he does care about them, and Casca insinuating otherwise pisses him off for good reason.
When Griffith nearly dies saving him from Zodd and then says he did it for no reason and implies he’d do it again without question, Guts like, basically reaches the pinnacle of his life.
And like, it is straightforward textual canon that this is everything Guts has desperately wanted all his life, thanks largely to his big pile of issues stemming from his fucked up childhood:
That is exactly what he has, and more importantly, what he understands and recognizes he has, after this staircase conversation.
When he first joined the Hawks we saw him remember that question he asked himself the night he killed Gambino and ran from his first (shitty) family: “where’m I going?”
After this conversation he remembers that night again:
He’s chosen to replace that first family, the abusive father he killed, the first mercenary band he grew up with, with the Hawks and Griffith. He has an answer to why he’s swinging his sword, and it’s not just to survive – it’s “for his sake.”
For now…
That little “for now” is important. It’s what he thought when he joined the Hawks three years ago, and it’s what he thinks now, because frankly, he is terrible at committment. This is an important part of Guts’ character. He’s slow to trust that others care about him because of his terrible childhood, and he’s very quick to believe he is unloved and unwanted. That “for now,” sets us up for the way one overheard speech makes Guts decide to rebuild his entire life from the ground up.
But hey, for now, he’s happy. He knows he’s cared for, he knows people, particularly Griffith, love and respect and value him. That to Griffith he’s worth risking his life for. He’s ready to dedicate himself to Griffith in turn. This is huge for Guts.
So yeah, he’s content and feels personally fulfilled with the Hawks and Griffith at this point in his life.
But then comes the speech.
This completely wipes away Guts’ assurance that Griffith loves, values, and respects him.
It changes everything for Guts and inarguably informs his choice to leave:
The real question worth asking isn’t why Guts decided to leave the Hawks, but why did one overheard pretentious speech about how Griffith has no friends affect Guts so profoundly that he immediately stopped viewing Griffith as a fellow human who would happily risk his life for him and began seeing him as a distant and perfect godlike figure who Guts would do anything to reach?
Like this speech comes after Griffith has literally died “for [his] sake.” In the encounter with Zodd, Griffith was dead because he instinctively ran into danger to grab Guts personally – it was only an unforseen twist of fate that allowed him to survive. And Guts knows this is significant, which is why he questions him about it, gets his answer, and dedicates himself to Griffith in return.
The speech erases that.
Afterwards, he has this incredibly unsubtle conversation with Casca:
Casca is laying down some basic facts here that add up to a confirmation of everything Guts believed when he said “I’ll wield my sword… for his sake,” on that rooftop.
Guts is the first person Griffith has ever said he wanted. Casca
hoped it was for his strength as an aid for achieving his dream, but
that is clearly not the case since he has nearly sacrificed his life –
and dream, Casca specifies – for Guts twice.
Griffith values Guts even above the dream he’s dedicated his life to, as is thoroughly demonstrated by his actions.
But Guts
completely disregards this. Casca straightforwardly tells him that
Griffith feels some unique and irrational emotions for Guts, and his
actions are proof of that, but Guts never stops to consider that maybe
Griffith’s actions speak louder than his words. At the most, what Casca’s angry monologue might do is give Guts the confidence that he’s capable of becoming Griffith’s friend, and therefore inspires him to leave.
But it certainly doesn’t make him rethink the truth or the value of Griffith’s speech to Charlotte.
I’m not going to get heavily into Griffith’s point of view here, I’ve done that very thoroughly in the second part of this giant thing
for anyone rly curious, but suffice to say his Promrose Hall monologue doesn’t have a
damn thing to do with how Griffith actually feels about Guts lol.
Guts doesn’t fit his weird and narrow definition of friend, Guts is actually far more important to him than this definition leaves room for. A friend is someone who has his own dream and would prioritize it over friendship, allowing Griffith to prioritize his own dream as well – Guts, conversely, has already taken priority over Griffith’s dream when Griffith risked it for him twice.
Griffith isn’t about to consciously admit to himself that his dream is no longer his number one priority, but our trusty commentator of their relationship, Casca, knows the score, and explains it to Guts, and completely fails to get through to him.
And the reason Guts prioritizes the speech over actual evidence of what his relationship with Griffith actually is, both in the form of Griffith saving him and Casca explaining things to him, comes back to his abusive childhood:
He is convinced that Griffith looks down on him because this is what he’s grown up expecting from people he respects and loves. He expects to be seen as worth nothing more than the money he can bring in and the fights he can win, he expects to be ostracized and seen as “cursed,” so Griffith’s speech overrides Griffith risking his life and dream to save Guts twice, it overrides Casca’s jealousy of their relationship, it overrides Griffith freaking out and refusing to let Guts leave without another duel, hell, for a while it even overrides both Casca and Rickert telling him that Griffith destroyed his life because Guts left.
He’s gone from feeling like a trusted, respected, and valued friend to feeling like nothing more than an asset to Griffith’s dream.
Remember, he did not feel discontent before the speech. In his three years with the Hawks before overhearing the speech, he felt like he’d found the place he belonged. He felt worthwhile, he felt valued as a person and not just as a soldier, and moreover, he was right to feel that way.
The Hawks do love, respect, and value him, and Griffith demonstratably values him even over his dream whether he’s able to admit that to himself or not.
And it’s only after overhearing the speech, overhearing that Griffith can only see someone as a friend and equal if they have their own obsession to pursue, that Guts starts feeling once again like he’s only fighting to survive, as we see him ponder during the 100 man fight, and here:
Before the Promrose Hall speech he felt like he was fighting for his friends and comrades, for Griffith, and he was proud of that, but now he feels like he’s worthlessly fighting for nothing. It’s incredibly depressing imo. This is straight up a result of Guts’ low self esteem, thanks to his abusive childhood.
This is Guts’ tendency to feel like an outsider rearing its ugly head. This is because he grew up being told he was cursed, used only as a source of income for Gambino, and turned on and nearly killed by Gambino and then the rest of the mercenaries. This is Guts feeling like he can’t trust any companionship to be genuine other than his sword.
Basically what happened is that Guts overheard Griffith’s speech in a moment of particular vulnerability. He’d just accidentally killed a kid and he was feeling like a monster about it. He was trying to find Griffith, probably to feel that same sense of acceptance and love he felt during the staircase conversation – he needed reassurance, and instead his world came crashing down around him and his feelings of worthlessness resurged hard.
And because of his outsider issues he extrapolates Griffith’s speech to his feelings about being part of the Hawks as a whole. Every Hawk has a dream except him, therefore he’s an outsider and doesn’t really belong.
And on some level, Guts knows this is bullshit.
It’s been one day and, now feeling the full weight of being alone again and apart from what Rickert pointedly calls his family, he’s already having second thoughts, reflecting on the warm companionship he’s giving up and acknowledging that his goal is inherently contradictory.
He wants to find his own dream so he can live for himself, when his entire reason for wanting that is to become Griffith’s equal. He’s not going out to find a dream for the sake of his own sense of independence, or because he personally also believes that a person is only worthwhile if they’re pursuing something.
He’s doing it because he overheard Griffith say that’s the only way to be his friend.
As he declares his independence from Griffith he is literally parroting Griffith’s speech here lol; it’s a giant contradiction and proof of what he mused on the night he left – he got this idea in his head by overhearing Griffith’s words, therefore he’s not actually doing it for his own sake.
Guts left for the sole reason of fulfilling Griffith’s weird and specific friendship criteria.
And after Guts comes back his whole narrative pretty much revolves around his slow and painful realization that Griffith’s speech was functionally meaningless, and yeah it turns out he did end up throwing away something irreplacable that he’ll never have again by taking off.
Like, just to underscore how significant it is that Guts lets Casca stab him as he internalizes this information, this is a huge sign of guilt. We see Guts do the same thing when the possessed kid stabs him all the way back in chapter 2. He denies feeling responsible both times, but the fact that he let himself be stabbed contradicts those words.
It takes him several days and several pretty huge anvils dropped on him before he finally accepts the fact that not only was leaving entirely unnecessary because Griffith did not actually look down on him or consider him unworthy, but by leaving he destroyed the thing he left to obtain in the first place: he left to become Griffith’s equal and when he came back, by any standards these two idiots would use to define power and worth, Guts is by far Griffith’s superior now. Entirely because Guts left Griffith is now disabled, helpless, voiceless, dreamless, powerless, and dependent.
And let’s be real, it’s a pretty damn harsh thing to accept that you not only rearranged the focus of your entire life and left your found family for no reason, but by doing so you lost the thing you rearranged your life and left your family to try to get. It’s no wonder Guts holds out for so long.
He keeps telling himself that Griffith is above the kind of emotion that would lead to him being declared a traitor one day after Guts left, that Griffith is untouchable, that Griffith has always had everything under control and always will. He insists to himself that Griffith is perfect and soaring distantly above him, because his reason for leaving is to become just like him. He has to believe it to justify his decision.
Since before he left:
to after he comes back:
But his ability to deny not just Griffith’s flawed humanity but also his devastatingly powerful feelings for him is growing weaker. Guts is beginning to realize that the fact that Guts was able to destroy him by leaving is itself proof that he didn’t need to leave.
Guts already had as strong a hold over Griffith as Griffith had over him. They were already functionally equals in this way.
Then I’ve made a huge mistake.
To make a long story short (too late), this is why Guts left:
And this is how Griffith really feels about Guts:
These two monologues exist to play off each other. Guts monologuing about his feelings for Griffith, how dazzling he is, how he needs to leave so he can be Griffith’s equal instead of feeling like Griffith is looking down on him. And Griffith’s monologue about his feelings for Guts, how the dream he’s spent every waking moment of his life pursuing pales in comparison to him, how strong Guts’ hold on him is, how he’s the sole sustenance keeping him alive.
It’s a point/counterpoint. Griffith’s monologue directly states that Guts is wrong about his reasons for leaving.
And again, I don’t think Guts’ decision to leave was actually stupid, or that it reflects badly on him. Griffith himself didn’t properly recognize his feelings for Guts until it was too late, and Guts had good reasons, both internal (a history of abuse) and external (Griffith’s stupid speech), for believing Griffith looked down on him.
But nevertheless he was still wrong, and here’s where Guts finally, finally realizes it properly, without pushing that realization away and denying it some more:
Unfortunately he realizes this about 30 seconds too late, which is what makes Berserk a tragedy.
Anyway, that’s about it. It may be worth noting that his regret over leaving informs significant chunks of the rest of his narrative, such as realizing he’s been being a dick by leaving Casca in a cave for two years:
And refusing to leave her again:
“Don’t abandon what you can’t replace. Weren’t those Godo’s parting words?”
Guts realizing he fucked up and shouldn’t’ve left the Hawks informs his most significant moments of personal growth over the series. Realizing he’s repeating that mistake is what finally sways him from the self-destructive path of rage and revenge to putting his energy into protecting Casca.
The fact that companions and loved ones are more important and genuinely healthier things to prioritize than dreams is one of the central themes of Berserk, and Guts choosing to leave the Hawks, his family, to pursue a dream, thereby losing all of his friends and loved ones, is the main illustration of this theme.
Also worth noting: the dream Guts eventually landed on was to just keep swinging his sword, getting better and stronger and fighting better and stronger enemies, except alone this time, instead of among comrades and friends. You know what that describes to a tee? The Black Swordsman arc, as is neatly pointed out after the Eclipse:
Guts would’ve been much, much better off staying with the Hawks and continuing to find personal fulfillment in his relationships and feelings of being loved and valued, but years of being told his only worth is as an asset, rather than as a person, blinded him to the truth and made it too easy for him to believe he’s looked down on.
Part of the tragedy of the Golden Age hinges on Guts’ low self esteem and inability to see that he’s loved because of it. This is what happens when you’re the protagonist of a really well-written, really tragic story: you make some wonderfully disastrous, character-revealing mistakes.
1. This is another one of my favourite expresions in Berserk tbh
2. I’m not saying this is deliberate, I’m not sure it would even be in character, but I can’t help but imagine this as Guts taunting Femto/Griffith about the fact that he was in love with him, his life was destroyed because of him, Guts drove him to make the sacrifice by leaving him, and Guts knows it.
Like yeah logically it’s just Guts being pissed off over the fact that Griffith sacrificed him to become a demon, especially with the follow up “thanks to me who’s fighting an army of the dead because of you,” but man, I’m js that knowing how the Golden Age goes gives this line potential Layers. You’re where you are now because this petty existence had all that power over you.
On the other hand this whole scene exists to set up Griffith making the sacrifice to bury his fragile heart bc of whatever went down w/ Guts, so like, it could be that deep?
Plus Femto’s response:
Just gonna reiterate that you mean absolutely nothing to me.
Whether that’s what Guts meant to say or not, I’m pretty sure he’s well aware of the irony of Femto emphasising his insignificance now, considering everything that went down between them. He might even stubbornly refuse to go back to post-Speech-to-Charlotte Guts, clinging to the fact that, no, I meant something to you and you meant something to me, and we both know that.
But then he would also have to know that it’s his fault that Griffith went this far. Which we know that he does, but idk, whenever I re-read the manga I feel like we should get to see more guilt from him.
Anyway, I don’t think Miura was fully taking all this into consideration while writing these first few chapters, but in retrospect you have to think about all the layers of meaning behind nearly every word Femto & Guts exchange. Like, this is off topic, but it’s in these chapters that Guts first finds out what sacrificing someone really means, and he doesn’t really react in any significant way, when realistically he should.
To be fair he’s unconscious when the Godhand actually explain the sacrifice and tell the Count that a sacrifice has to be someone you love so much it’s like they’re part of you. Which imo is kind of a hmmmm in and of itself, like there’s no reason Guts had to be unconscious at any point at all since he could barely move anyway, except to miss the explanation of who can be sacrificed. When he does wake up he just lies there and listens to the Count’s backstory before finally telling Puck to heal him. So I feel like it kind of suggests that Guts knowing that info might affect some things.
But otherwise yeah ia. I’m actually kind of rly into the idea of Guts stubbornly clinging to the knowledge that he was important to Griffith, hard earned as it was, now that you mention that. At least between the Eclipse and Griffith’s rebirth.
It’s like… idk I think there’s an argument that he left the Hawks because he knew he did mean something to Griffith, and that gave him the confidence to believe he could truly become his bff4ever if he changed his whole life lol. Whereas if he thought Griffith genuinely couldn’t give a shit about him he wouldn’t even try.
And then I think a similar way of thinking could be informing his behaviour during the Black Swordsman stuff. Like, I know I meant something to you, deny it all you want, I’m going to find you and force you to acknowledge me.
But after NGriff ditches him I think he kind of gives that up? Which is why he’s able to put his revenge thing on hold – it starts to feel futile when he genuinely believes NGriff feels nothing at all towards him. (Which is why that beating heart is a game changer in waiting js.)
idk lol I’m just thinking outloud.
And yeah like, it’s textual that he feels guilty for Griffith’s breakdown, from letting Casca stab him to:
But I do wish we saw more of that post-Eclipse other than the recurring moments when he thinks about Griffith kneeling in the snow and mopes lol. It kind of makes sense to me that we don’t see Guts feeling guilty after the Eclipse because I feel like the point of the Eclipse rape was to piss Guts off enough that he’d basically channel his guilt into rage, but I feel like we should still see more inner conflict. Not that we don’t see any, but yk, I always want more.
Ohhh, man, I remembered he got knocked out but I thought we didn’t get to see the exact moment when he came to … so I thought, you know, we don’t know exactly how much he’s heard?
But I went to check and this is him twitching awake after all the juicy details have been laid out:
Which is honestly even better than him hearing all that and not reacting.
He does get to hear these parts though:
I honestly like to interpret his expression here as loathing directed specifically @ the God Hand sans Griffith/Femto, for waltzing in and ruining everything lol.
And I agree with everything else you brought up! Like, Guts can actually be pretty confident and even cocky, so it’s not like he’s constantly putting himself down. He’s just a little naive, bless his heart.
I can’t WAIT for Neo-Griff to finally snap lol
It’s gotta happen. Even if Guts’ storyline is wall-to-wall disappointment I know in my soul NGriff’s is going somewhere good.
And yeah I’m sure the parallels aren’t lost on Guts lol, but i guess it’s not quite as direct as essentially saying ‘being able to sacrifice someone is proof that you love them.’ Also yeah I’m into that interpretation of his anger there, like imo he hates Femto on a personal level for being an evil version of the dude he loves, but he def hates the rest of the Godhand for facilitating it. His reaction when seeing Slan in the troll cave was even more overwhelmingly rage-y than when he saw NGriff on the Hill of Swords, eg.
yk i think guts is supposed to seem chill and confident and generally changed in a positive way after his year long vacation but since every moment that emphasizes his cool chill attitude makes me want to punch him i’m not 100% certain lol
like i generally take as read that guts leaving the hawks is one of those things that’s overall bad but had some positive effects, like guts being more confident and cool, since yk the moments that indicate that are things the target audience of dudes would generally agree is cool, like calmly grabbing casca’s tit while she’s yelling at him and then saying, ‘come with me’ in a nonchalant non-commital way, or like telling casca she’s too naked and distracting during the wyald fight, or constantly being a smartass dick during the competition, that kinda thing.
but then again since i generally argue that leaving the hawks was a bad decision, maybe those moments are actually meant to be off-putting. like i don’t really think so, if i was a betting person i’d place money on miura thinking they make guts cooler, but i kind of want to believe.
I dont agree with this tbh. Guts leaving the hawks was a good thing. One of the most difficult and traumatic experiences is gaining independence and discovering your own way i life. The hawks were a home for guts but learning to leave to find his own way was special for me. I used to think that him leaving was sort of “cool” and used to set the whole tough lone wolf trope, but because of how guts felt inferior to his peers, and especially griffith, leaving the hawks was the most endearing action he couldve done. Its not played for a trope or for a demographic but rather to show the journey of a man who wants to be someone he can love. Ik ur a hige guts x griffith fan and i see the obvious undertones and interactions but when i see how guts feels when he seew his own journey next to griffiths i cant blame him for leaving.
I respect your opinion and I don’t mean to reblog this just to be like ‘nah you’re wrong’ because like, I do think Miura was trying to convey both good and bad effects of Guts leaving. Like I said, though I personally think that Guts’ more confident and independent attitude is shown in insufferable ways, I feel like Miura intended it to be a positive change for him.
And in general the idea of someone leaving a place to be more independent is a perfectly valuable and potentially a very positive narrative depending on the circumstances, and I don’t want to suggest that if you found Guts’ decision to leave the Hawks to be valuable then you’re wrong, there are plenty of reasons to appreciate it.
But, because this is one of those readings that tends to inform a lot of my other posts and meta etc, I just want to kind of explain where I’m coming from and what I mean by “mistake.”
It’s not a mistake you can blame Guts for at all, because his reasons for leaving are perfectly understandable and sympathetic, but it’s a decision Guts made based on misinformation (from Griffith’s stupid speech) and his own issues – largely desperately wanting to be loved and respected and believing all too easily that he isn’t thanks to his fucked up childhood.
And like this is also something Griffith shoulders blame for, for being an emotionally obtuse idiot who doesn’t recognize his own feelings until he’s spent a year in a dungeon. But again, like Guts’ issues, I find this sympathetic and understandable too.
(And like, while yeah I obviously ship them lol, this isn’t necessarily shippy, it’s kind of just a fact of Berserk that it, and the Golden Age especially, revolves around Guts and Griffith’s relationship, platonic or otherwise. Guts chose to leave because he wanted to be Griffith’s friend – before overhearing the speech he didn’t feel inadequate at all.)
Basically it’s not a mistake in the sense that Guts should’ve known better or that Guts choosing to leave was stupid and reflects badly on him, it’s a mistake because if Guts and Griffith were less terrible at communication Guts wouldn’t’ve wanted to leave in the first place, and once he realizes that he left because of misinformation he feels a lot of regret.
I think I’m going to write a full post on this soon because it would be nice to have something to link back to when I casually throw the idea that Guts leaving was a mistake out there, because I know it’s actually pretty controversial in fandom as a whole. So if you’re interested in my further thoughts with more like, textual evidence lol, I’ll get on that, and if not then no worries and I’m more than happy to agree to disagree 🙂
yk i think guts is supposed to seem chill and confident and generally changed in a positive way after his year long vacation but since every moment that emphasizes his cool chill attitude makes me want to punch him i’m not 100% certain lol
like i generally take as read that guts leaving the hawks is one of those things that’s overall bad but had some positive effects, like guts being more confident and cool, since yk the moments that indicate that are things the target audience of dudes would generally agree is cool, like calmly grabbing casca’s tit while she’s yelling at him and then saying, ‘come with me’ in a nonchalant non-commital way, or like telling casca she’s too naked and distracting during the wyald fight, or constantly being a smartass dick during the competition, that kinda thing.
but then again since i generally argue that leaving the hawks was a bad decision, maybe those moments are actually meant to be off-putting. like i don’t really think so, if i was a betting person i’d place money on miura thinking they make guts cooler, but i kind of want to believe.
Chapter One serves to re-establish the characters’ relationships with each other after three years fighting together and foreshadow their future conflicts as their relationships change. This is especially evident during the last scene of the chapter.
The interspersing of Guts’ rote sword exercise with Griffith’s knighting as
he reaches a significant milestone on the path to his dream subtly
illustrates the eventual conflict between Griffith’s dream and his
relationship with Guts by contrasting Guts’ aimlessness with Griffith’s
ambition, ie the source of Guts’ eventual inner conflict that leads to him leaving the Hawks.
And these directly subsequent panels in particular invite a visual
comparison between Guts’ sword and the sword that represents Griffith’s dream, hinting at the way Griffith is torn between Guts and his dream.
Finally, the clear phallic imagery indicates that they want to bone the fuck down.
Guts: This time it’s by my own will. I will never entrust my sword to another again. From now on every battle will be my own.
Also Guts: *throws away his entire life and the found family he holds dear so he can fulfill Griffith’s friendship criteria down to the letter*
I think there’s a strong argument to be made that, rather than being
depicted as burgeoning true love ruined by the Eclipse for the
sake of extra tragedy, Guts and Casca getting together is depicted as a mistake from the start.
Let’s look at Guts’ conversation with Judeau, where he seems to consider the possibility of Casca as a romantic interest for the first time.
“The one who has her eye… is Griffith. That’s why… right now… I’m no good for her… like this.”
I see two possible ways of interpreting this statement. Either the narrative and Guts just reframed Guts entire raison d’etre, his whole motivation for leaving and the reason he wants to be Griffith’s equal, thanks to a few leading statements from Judeau, or Guts is framing a potential relationship with Casca as another step on the journey of becoming Griffith’s equal.
The former defies belief. We just spent 22 chapters knowing exactly why Guts wants to leave and become Griffith’s equal. There’s no mystery there, there’s no detail left to be uncovered. Suddenly doing a 180 and saying actually, he wants to leave so he can be worthy of Casca, even though he never considered Casca a romantic possibility until approximately 30 seconds earlier, would just be impossibly bad writing from an otherwise extremely solid story.
But the latter, well, that fits right in.
After they have sex, Casca symbolically becomes Guts’ sword instead of Griffith’s:
To Casca, Guts is a more open, emotionally available replacement for Griffith, as I’ve discussed in detail in this post. Guts is in fact coming closer to his goal of becoming Griffith’s equal by sleeping with Casca, because after this Casca begins to transfer her obsession with Griffith and his dream to him.
And Casca isn’t an endgame for Guts. She’s not the goal, she’s not the motivation – she’s an addition to his overarching desire to have Griffith see him as an equal. He still plans to leave to continue fighting stronger and stronger enemies after they hook up. He invites her along – just so long as she doesn’t get in the way of his more important dream:
Non-committally inviting her along mollifies her, but it doesn’t address her point lol – he’s still selfishly prioritizing his dream. She’s become support for that, just the way she supported Griffith’s dream as his “sword.” Eventually that is exactly what leads to everything crashing down around them – Casca telling Guts to leave, because his dream is all-important.
And while we then leave Guts and Casca on a sweet moment where they kiss, that very same page shifts to pure ominousness to end both the chapter and Guts and Casca’s newly changed relationship on:
Cue snake man walking around and the Behelit floating down a river on its way to a date with Griffith.
And then the next chapter returns us to Griffith, a year since the last time we saw him, and his monologue about how his feelings for Guts are so strong and bright they make even the dream fade into dullness.
Guts is trying to “unbind” himself from Griffith. In his dream speech to Casca he says he can’t stay with the Hawks because he refuses to ever swing his sword in service to another again. And Casca tells Guts that she can’t continue defending the almost broken dream of someone who may not even be alive. Both he and Casca are trying to move on from Griffith in their own ways, and they try to do this through a connection with each other.
But the thing is, if you’re writing the kind of relationship triangle where two people help each other get over a third, if you want it to really feel satisfying and right, wouldn’t you want to establish that they both should be getting over Griffith, and that a relationship with each other is a more positive step for them?
The problem is that Guts’ whole thing, his whole desire to leave to become Griffith’s equal, is motivated by wanting to be closer to Griffith lol. He wants to be someone Griffith can call a friend. And it’s based on a falsehood: he thinks Griffith looks down on him.
When this is how Griffith feels about him:
Guts trying to unbind himself from Griffith doesn’t feel satisfying when we’re immediately reminded through a passionate monologue that Griffith is just as bound to Guts as Guts is to him, and that Guts only wants to become independent of Griffith because he doesn’t know that.
As for Casca, her obsession with Griffith came at the expense of
herself. Spending a year fighting for Griffith’s dream
and leading the Hawks while he was in a dungeon drove her to the point
of suicide.
But her encounter here with Guts doesn’t solve any of
that, she just transfers her obsession and her dedication to someone
else’s dream to Guts, as we see clearly through that sword metaphor,
through the parallels I linked to earlier, and through Casca telling
Guts he has to leave because his dream is the most important thing.
Casca trying to get over Griffith and move on doesn’t feel satisfying when she immediately falls into the same self-destructive patterns with a new person at the centre of her obsession.
Guts and Casca’s romance has
its postive aspects – Guts opens up to her about his childhood trauma,
eg, and is comforted. But there’s
dissonance beneath the surface. They have sex right after Guts let Casca
stab him because a part of him realized she was right about Griffith needing him. Casca had just tried to kill herself after telling Guts that Griffith doesn’t need her, as though she can only live in relation to someone else. In
deciding to leave the Hawks together, Guts continues suppressing his
eventual revelation that leaving in the first place was a mistake.
And
Guts recalls
Gambino giving him medicine – the one act of kindness from him which
Guts latches onto to help him deny the rest of Gambino’s abuse – while Casca is compared to a sword, which to me seems like a strong, not all that positive statement on their relationship: it doesn’t fix their underlying issues, it doesn’t change anything, it just helps them live in denial of those issues – Casca’s lack of independence, Guts’ dream being a mistake*** – for a while longer.
Basically, rather than moving forward and truly healing with each other, they’re revisiting the past, repeating negative patterns, maintaining denial, and essentially, well, licking wounds.
And by trying to move on from
Griffith by taking solace in each other, they only add to Guts’ original
mistake, which is failing to realize that there was no reason for him to move on in the first
place. Guts couldn’t stand the thought of Griffith looking down on him,
but this is who he is to Griffith, as we are told immediately before and
after he has sex with Casca:
And this is when Guts finally acknowledges his mistake, about 10 seconds after Griffith overheard Casca telling him to leave:
We know that Miura didn’t
intend Guts and Casca to get together from the start, let alone for it
to be a grand true love style romance. He’s said that he hooked them up
for the sake of more Eclipse drama. And I think that the way he framed
their relationship, from its placement in the narrative to the details of the scene itself to the way it goes hand in hand with Guts’ dream, makes it feel like it’s contributing to the series of unfortunate fuck ups that lead to the Eclipse, rather than just being an incidental casualty of it.
It’s a mistake the
way Miura writes mistakes – not obviously so, with no ill intent or
obviously misguided motives behind it. Their relationship isn’t meant to
be unpleasant, it’s shown as sweet and maybe not epic, maybe not
lasting, but overall more positive than negative for them. But so was
Guts’ year long sabbatical, and we’ve seen how much he regrets that:
In Berserk characters can make the wrong decisions despite having the best of intentions, despite some good coming out of those decisions, despite doing the best they can based on what they know. And I think Guts and Casca’s relationship is shown to be one of them.
*** I think both Casca’s lack of independence and Guts’ focus on his own dream of fighting stronger and stronger enemies are at least in part poor coping mechanisms for their respective childhood traumas, which makes the sword and medicine metaphors even more apt. But to get fully into that would take its own post, and it’s not necessary to my point here, so this is just a minor aside lol.
Yeah, I’d say whether Femto is a different person from Griffith comes down to semantics and what someone considers personhood, but to me undergoing a magical transformation that augments the “evil” in your heart (which, in Berserk, exists in the hearts of all people) and removes the “goodness” or w/e, as visually depicted by literally losing fragments of himself:
makes you different enough that I have no problem mentally separating human Griffith and Femto, and definitely don’t hate Griffith for Femto’s actions, same way I don’t hate Guts for trying to murder his friends when the armour takes over.
If you (general you) wanna hate Griffith for agreeing to sacrifice his friends, or challenging Guts when he left, or w/e, I’ll disagree but I think that’s fair game. But hating him for Femto’s actions after we’re taken step by step through his magical transformation into an entity made out of evil really doesn’t make sense to me.
Also, do you mean Griffith would’ve taken Guts back if he’d returned, say, a year after the duel, like in canon, but Griffith hadn’t gotten caught fucking Charlotte and therefore hadn’t spent that year in a dungeon?
I think Griffith probably would take him back, because he’s desperate and needy and irrational and in love, but I could see an argument where the duel is a big wake-up call to how emotionally compromised he is by his love for Guts, which could make him view Guts as a huge threat lol, and he might refuse to let him return to try to protect himself from his own destructive, dream-endangering feelings.
Though I think it’s also likely that Griffith isn’t that self aware even after the duel, and would still manage to deny his feelings. Like Guts would come back and Griffith would somehow logic himself into returning to their close relationship without admitting to himself that he just really needs Guts in his life. Like, “it’s not because I desperately want him back at my side, it’s because he knows I assassinated the queen and co and therefore I need him as my ally and not my enemy.” Or something along those lines. Though of course his feelings would be that much harder to deny now, and eventually something would have to give.
Or he could be aware of his feelings now, but too far gone to refuse Guts, a la “if I can’t have him, I don’t care!” Like, “ok Guts’ existence could clearly ruin me, but fuck it, he came back and I’ll be damned if I’m letting him leave me again ever.” Which would open its own associated emotional can of worms lol.
lol sorry I love thinking about Griffith’s stupid feelings and how he deals or doesn’t deal with them.
(And now I’m wondering what if Guts turned around and walked back two minutes after leaving Griffith in the snow. I feel like if that was the case Griffith would be incapable of anything but genuine emotional expression, either in the form of being overwhelmed with relief that Guts came back and immediately taking him back, or rage followed by a sobbing breakdown or smthn.
This is a great topic to muse on lol)
Anyway this is Guts uncomfortably identifying with Casca’s worshipful admiration (which we are later told is a romantic crush) of Griffith. Like we get a …. shot of Guts looking broody every time Casca starts waxing poetic.
Uncomfortably because he wants to be Griffith’s equal and he feels like he’s looking up at him while Griffith is looking down.
And THIS is either Guts thinking Casca is wrong about how Griffith feels about him, or (more likely imo) being moody because he thinks Casca deserves her place at Griffith’s side more than he does, because she has a dream to live for.
It leads to the 100 man fight, which he spends thinking about how pointless it is because he’s swinging his sword for no other reason but to swing it, and gets Casca to escape because she has something more to live for than he does. Which then leads to campfire of dreams, where he concludes that everyone has a dream except for him, says compared to what Casca and Griffith have to live for nothing he does is important, so he’d better leave to find one so he can be worthy of standing beside Griffith.
Casca and Guts have been rivals for Griffith’s affections, that’s their main relationship up til now. But this is the point where Guts concludes that he’s lost the fight, and starts throwing them together while he prepares to bow out, at least til he can come back feeling worthy of Griffith.
actually that post reminded me of a quick thing i was gonna write a while ago and forgot about
so i’ve mentioned before a few times that Guts and Judeau’s conversation here is kind of weird because Guts swivels from ‘what the hell are you talking about’ to ‘actually yeah I should totally fuck Casca, I just need to become Griffith’s equal first’ within about a minute
In other posts I suggested that this was an awkwardly written way of bringing a romance with Casca to the forefront. This seems to reframe Guts’ motivation for leaving as at least in part to become worthy of Casca, despite this never occuring to Guts before.
Now I’m thinking that this scene isn’t actually about complicating Guts’ motivation for leaving at the last minute – I’m thinking it’s set up for Guts’ motivation for romancing Casca.
Meaning, he doesn’t want to become Griffith’s equal so he can feel worthy of Casca’s love, he wants to win Casca to feel like Griffith’s equal.
And I’m js, that reading fits with the way the Guts/Casca “romance” is written throughout the rest of the story, ie, as secondary and serving the relationship between Guts and Griffith, and often falling by the wayside next to it, rather than vice versa.
Like when Guts says he can accept the fact that Casca is still obsessed with Griffith because he’s even more obsessed. Like how (as I thoroughly explained in the post linked above) their sex scene revolves around their relationships to Griffith. Like how Wyald almost raping Casca is treated as an opportunity not for compassion or comfort but for one-liners by Guts (his reaction is to tell her to go away because she’s distracting with ripped clothes !!! like !!! fucking hell). Like how Guts is focused solely on Griffith during the Eclipse, up to and including a moment where he looks down, sees the Band being eaten by monsters, and goes right back to trying to hack Griffith’s egg open, without even sparing a thought for Casca. Like how he abandons her in a cave for two years while hunting Femto down. Like how he only realizes that was a bad decision when he compares it to leaving Griffith kneeling in the snow. Like everything the Hound says. Like Miura’s direct statement that Casca only survived the Eclipse to keep Guts pissed off about it. etc etc etc
Basically I’m not saying it’s better writing this way, but it’s bad in a different way. It’s not clunky so much as plain old misogynistic, but hey p much everything regarding Guts and Casca’s relationship is misogynistic either way, so at least if the romance with Casca was never an end in itself but rather a means to the end of being Griffith’s equal, it’s consistent. At least it means we’re not supposed to read this bullshit and think “aw true love,” yk?
It’s… so confusing though, a close friend of mine watched the series based partially on my rec and him wanting to see it for ages and he misunderstood… basically… everything??? HOW DOES BERSERK FANDOM OUTSIDE TUMBLR FUNCTION???
honestly same, I really don’t get it. Like I can see general homophobia making ppl desperately want to downplay the gay vibes leading to as little emphasis on Guts and Griffith’s relationship, and especially Guts’ (extremely and wholly positive) feelings for Griffith as possible. Like describing Guts’ decision to leave the Hawks as “he does not want to be caught up in Griffith’s dream anymore” is technically accurate, and yet completely downplays the fact that the reason he doesn’t want to be caught up in Griffith’s dream is because Griffith is “dazzling” and he wants Griffith to “look at [him]” and he wants to feel like his equal and be regarded as a True Friend. In the terrible episode description it’s instead framed like Guts is pissed off about having to assassinate people lol.
And idk I think it might also be partially this weird desperate need to have a Hero and a Villain and have Guts prevail over the villain and ride off into the sunset with the Rescued Love Interest, because a lot of people are frankly boring and like boring stories and can’t conceive of good stories outside those basic parameters. So they twist the narrative in their head until it fits that shape, despite Guts and Casca not having anything like a traditional true love romance and Miura saying he only had Casca survive the Eclipse to keep Guts focused on revenge, despite Griffith not being a pure evil villain even after the Eclipse and certainly not before (like Miura’s directly talked about NGriff’s moral ambiguity and the way he’s not a traditional evil antagonist), despite the clearly complicated emotions that still exist between Guts and Griffith/Femto/NGriff, etc.
At my most generous I think part of the reason people choose to believe Griffith was evil all along is because Femto’s defining act is rape and people are uncomfortable seeing any good in a character who eventually becomes a rapist, tho personally the fact that he magically transforms into a demon first kind of mitigates that for me lol. (And, and I’ve ranted about this before but still, it’s also a double standard when so many of the same people go out of their way to excuse Guts when he sexually assaults Casca.)
But still idk it’s weird. Like, eg there’s so much you have to ignore to believe that Guts leaving the Hawks was fine and dandy and a good choice and Griffith was just a dick who overreacted. Pages and pages of Guts fretting about it, Casca yelling it at him, Guts regretting leaving, Guts realizing he was wrong in thinking Griffith looked down on him, Guts comparing abandoning Casca to abandoning Griffith multiple times, Guts determined not to make the same mistake again, etc etc. You can support Guts’ choice and blame Griffith all you want, but the narrative clearly does not, and it’s honestly baffling how ppl can ignore that when it’s not only discussed many times in direct words, but the whole story revolves around the fact that Guts made a mistake when he left.
Like what do you think the Golden Age is about if it’s not about a stupid misunderstanding between 2 dudes who both rly like each other and fail to realize their feelings are reciprocated and overreact and make dumb decisions because of that misunderstanding? I don’t understand what most Berserk fans see, it genuinely feels like we’re reading 2 different stories lol.
u should learn to trust ur instincts guts, you literally figured this out the night after you left:
goddamn it dude
moments like these are depressing bc if i wasn’t supposed to find them cutely shippy i’d love them
like imagine guts and casca’s relationship without the veneer of slapped on romance. guts comforts her non-sexually after casca tries to kill herself, they renew their tentative friendship that began a year ago, they begin working in sync as comrades.
moments like these are, rather than romantic, symbolic of guts’ place as a hawk and the fact that he’s at his best with his friends – casca and guts are both badass warriors and part of a larger family which guts once abandoned.
imo without the romance berserk would actually be tighter thematically. casca would just be the last remnant of the hawks, because she was their leader in place of griffith – the way judeau said as he tried to rescue her. the whole pseudo ex girlfriend thing only complicates it and dilutes the theme of the hawks as guts’ family, and saving casca = atoning for leaving them.
like how many times post-eclipse does guts think of her as the last remnant of the hawks, the last ‘feeble flame’ left to him off the hawks’ campfire, vows not to abandon her after remembering leaving griffith, yadda yadda yadda? his sexual relationship with her is vastly de-emphasized (except when the beast of darkness starts throwing his feelings for griffith into the mix, hmmmm) bc it’s just not important to the point of the story.
Forgot to mention this when it comes to Griffith + Casca parallels (Guts leaves for a year/two years to pursue a dumb dream, abandoning someone who needs him, then he comes back, realizes he may have fucked up, and rescues them):
Im glad im not alone on this. Its so weird that casca was guts’s last chance to make the right choice but he still messed up in some way.
Ooh yk when you put it like that, what I find striking is that he did make the right choice, pre-Eclipse. He realized he shouldn’t’ve left and decided to stay with Griffith despite getting told multiple times to leave by Casca and Judeau.
It was Casca telling him to leave that fucked Griffith up lol, not Guts wanting to leave or being reluctant to stay.
Whereas with Casca he makes the same mistake again, and directly compares leaving Casca alone in a cave to leaving Griffith, but when he gets Casca back he’s his own worst enemy when it comes to sticking to his resolution to stay with her.
First he plans to leave her in the cave again anyway
and when it caves in he knows he’s not just gonna abandon her in a field somewhere but he’s reluctant af to postpone his revenge quest for her
and then when he decides taking her to Elfhelm is the thing to do he does it still fully intending to return to his revenge quest eventually. (Plus, yk, the fucked up Beast of Darkness shit that happens before he gathers some extra babysitters.)
I don’t really have a point other than Guts taking one step forward with Griffith and ending up like five steps back when the situation is repeated with Casca.
And I mean yeah a lot of shit went down in the interim and he has a pretty good reason to be obsessed with revenge, but the comparison between leaving Griffith and leaving Casca is made over and over by both Guts and the narrative so when you sit down and actually compare them it’s striking that Guts is still like, struggling to rise to the level of caring about someone over his “dream” (fighting stronger and stronger enemies/vengeful rampage) that he’d already reached once with Griffith right before the Eclipse.
I just noticed the parallel with Guts putting his cloak around both of them.
It’s so … quaint.
Also you’re absolutely right. While he sort of makes the decision to stay in both cases. In Griffith’s case it was a final decision he came to after going over his ‘this is where I belong after all’ and consciously admitting to himself that his dream side quest was stupid and unnecessary anyway. And he sticks by that realisation even after Judeau and Casca’s speeches. Casca telling him to leave wasn’t significant because it made Guts’ reconsider his decision, if I remember correctly we aren’t even shown Guts’ face in that panel- it’s significant for Griffith to hear and believe .
If anything Guts had already made the subconscious decision to stay waay before the raiders ran to him.
In the tent/wagon with Griffith he talks about the future once Griffith heals. “ We’ll be able to see that soon enough” he says we.WE.
Whereas with Casca his decision to stay always seems to be in lieu of there either being no other choice or in response to someone else’s prodding. Staying with Casca seems to be a means to an end where he can leave her in a safe and wholesome place and state and move on with a clear mind.
The only time there seems to be a real resolve behind his decision to stay is when he’s directly substituting the situation with already having failed at it with Griffith.
Even his “even if you put something back together piece by piece it may never be the same.” Dialogue ties in with this. He says this after his Griffith fueled Casca endeavor has sort of failed.
And yeah.
After Casca tells him “if you’re Griffith’s friend and equal… you have to. Even if it’s alone… you have to go” we get the “why do I always see these things… after they’re done and gone?” line. It seems p clear to me that that Guts is referring to his realization that he had his “dream” in the palm of his hand and threw it away by leaving to pursue it, ie he broke Griffith’s heart by leaving, though granted it’s not the plainest of statements.
But anyway yeah to me that sounds like Guts is absolutely unwavering in his resolve that he’s going to stay and he thinks leaving in the first place was a great big fuck up.
tbh I do wonder what Guts is thinking will happen when Casca gets her mind back, considering his brooding about the warnings he got. “She went to pieces because she can’t fully cope with it. What will she do if she does get her sanity back?” Like is he hoping she’ll join the trail of revenge with him? Is he planning to just play it by ear – take her with him if she wants to go, leave her in elfhelm if she wants to chill somewhere safe, etc? Cross his fingers and hope she doesn’t do something drastic?
I was kind of wondering if he’s hoping that getting her back the way she was will be enough motivation for him to take Godo’s advice and stay with the “irreplaceable things” instead of going back for revenge, but like I said, even on the ship he was still doing his “when this journey’s over, I’ll [not actually be able to finish this sentence]” thing, so I don’t think there’s much indication of that.
idk i’m just thinking outloud. it all comes back to griffith’s pull being like, the strongest force exerted on him lol, for both good and bad. devote himself to griffith, or leave to become griffith’s equal, or stay with griffith, or ditch casca to chase griffith, or stay with casca while comparing the situation to one with griffith, gritting his teeth, and anticipating being able to chase griffith again.
i wonder if it’s not so much that he’ll overcome the pull of griffith on him as the nature of it will shift again, from revenge to maybe realizing that his desire isn’t actually for revenge, but still to be griffith’s equal. maybe he’ll actually untangle some of his feelings at some point, considering things like “the instant I saw him… I forgot my urge to kill.”
“If you’re Griffith’s friend and equal” with the larger than life beautiful and noble image of Griffith dwarfing them, to “Why do I always see these things… after they’re done and gone…?” with what Griffith has become, tiny and weak, because Guts broke him by leaving to become his equal, itself proof that leaving was unnecessary.
Griffith as the image Guts wanted to rise up to join, whose love and affection and respect he craved vs Griffith as the human Guts was already equal to, who craved Guts’ love and affection and respect in kind.
“You should have known. This is the man I am. You of all people.”
NeoGriffith’s “you of all people” imo is a reference to “ain’t this part of the path to your dream? You believe that, don’t you?” The moment the Godhand shows Griffith to convince him to make the sacrifice, because Guts was prioritizing his dream more than Griffith was and telling him to do whatever’s necessary to achieve it. And the moment that made Griffith believe that Guts saw how dirty/cruel/etc he was and decided to leave him because of it.
That’s what Griffith thinks. NeoGriffith seems a little bitter about it, probably thanks to that beating heart making him less unemotional than he’d like.
Guts doesn’t actually think that. To him the kind of man Griffith was was someone who cared about people, who did some fucked up shit for his dream but felt bad about it and needed reassurance, and who was driven to a point of desperation where he’d sacrifice his friends bc Guts left him and he was tortured for a year (”[Was I] the one who drove you…? Was I the one who brought all this upon you?”)
I find it rly curious that “You of all people,” leads directly, on the same page even, to Guts thinking about NeoGriffith saving Casca, and looking like he’s wondering about it.
It’s obvious that Guts still sees NeoGriff as a monster, given how pissed off he was about his ‘lol idgaf’ attitude towards the Eclipse and the fact that it’s still a struggle not to slip back into revenge mode. But he did watch NeoGriff save Casca from falling rocks for no apparent reason, and now he’s thinking about it while thinking about NeoGriffith saying he should’ve known what kind of man he is.
I mean if you go along with my explanation that part of why Griffith was so devastated when Guts left is bc he was convinced that Guts saw him the way he saw himself,
as a cruel and filthy monster climbing over corpses to get to a castle,
then what Griffith did when he made the sacrifice is choose to transform into and fully embody that version of himself, wiping away everything about him that belies it (or trying to). “You should have known. This is the man I am. You of all people.”
tl;dr Guts left because he admired and loved Griffith, Griffith thought he left because he was disgusted by him, and NGriff is referencing his belief here.
In that final page I think Guts dismisses the issue and decides to focus his attention on Casca – after this as far as I remember he doesn’t think about NGriff’s weird contradictory behaviour again. But I have to wonder if it’s going to come back with a vengeance, alongside the fact that Guts and Griffith both have very different perceptions of what kind of man Griffith was.
i was browsing thru all the pages i have saved looking for smthn to talk about and this one here hit me with the sudden thought:
what if those scratch marks aren’t from that day, but earlier?
idk the way we’re in the midst of the sex scene and then Griffith’s first startling, intruding memory isn’t Guts leaving but Guts saying “you believe that, don’t you?” back after the assassination, followed by the reveal of the marks on Griffith’s shoulder made me go hmm.
Last time I talked about those scratches I mentioned that Griffith showed up at Charlotte’s window in the same clothes he was wearing during the duel so if the marks came from that day you have to imagine him holing up in his room, taking his clothes off, self-harming, and then redressing – which is fine, but it’s an extra step you have to add yourself as a reader, and therefore a little counter-intuitive.
Whereas the placement of panels here feels like cause and effect to me.
Last time we saw Griffith self harming it was while talking about his “blood-soaked dream,” after doing something that makes him feel dirty for the sake of that dream. This time we see SI marks after a panel in which Guts reminds him about that dream and calls his resolve into question, after doing something that makes him feel dirty for the sake of the dream (the assassinations).
Why does Guts question his resolve? Because Griffith needed emotional reassurance from Guts – he needed Guts to tell him he wasn’t cruel for involving him, for “dirtying” Guts by proxy, essentially (”I involved you in this filthy scheme… and I didn’t even get my hands dirty.”) Like I think he needs reassurance that he isn’t dragging Guts down or making him feel dirty himself by virtue of being close to him, and involving him in the darker aspects of his rise to the top. And Guts’ response to that is only to remind him that it’s necessary.
So my point is that “do you think I’m cruel” is another version of “is it… too dirty?” Is he dirty, are people going to feel disgusting too if they get close to him, if they know about what he’s done?
So imagine: Guts tells Griffith, hey, w/e man all this fucked up shit is necessary for your dream. You believe that, don’t you? Griffith does this:
And then he thinks about Guts’ words while he’s getting ready for bed that night or bathing the next morning, thinks about what he’s done and what he’s had Guts do for the sake of his dream, thinks about Guts asking, “you believe that, don’t you?” and tears up his shoulder, convincing himself that he does believe it, the same way he tore up his arms in the river as he talked himself through how necessary it is to dirty himself for his “blood-smeared” dream.
(And it’s been a month since then but lbr if he’s scratching as deep as he did last time those marks would still be very visible here.)
And then Guts leaves. And Griffith thinks it’s because he feels dirty by proxy, because Griffith revealed too much of himself and Guts didn’t like what he saw, because of his dream.
Griffith remembers, “you believe that, don’t you?” and he remembers Guts walking away.
He’s remembering when he hurt himself and why, he’s telling himself, “yes I believe it, it’s necessary, even if it’s why you left my dream is worth it. This is the evidence.” He traces those marks but this time he doesn’t scratch himself.
He’s finally lost his conviction, because losing Guts isn’t worth it and there’s no way he can convince himself that it is.
(this is kind of built on a lot of stuff i wrote here lol, hopefully it makes sense without that but just in case there’s a pseudo part one.)
ps if griffith already had those self-inflicted marks on his shoulder when guts won the duel a hair’s breadth away from wounding griffith exactly on that spot… well griffith self harms as an expression of his feelings of guilt and to drive himself towards his dream. feels symbolic of guts obliterating that dream and being a stronger force than griffith’s guilt, at least for a while.
The fact that Guts decides to pursue an equal
relationship with Griffith after hearing the speech is what singles his
relationship with Griffith out as unique. Everyone else in Griffith’s life is content to
either look up at or down on him.
Even the Princess, his future wife,
just marvels at the speech while literally looking up at him, rather than showing any desire to find a
dream herself and become “worthy” of calling herself his equal.
Because Guts is the only one who wants to genuinely connect with
Griffith – who wants to stand beside him by achieving something of his own – Guts is Griffith’s only “true” relationship, the only
relationship he has based on real affection and genuine desire for the
person, and not just what he represents, either as a symbol of hope and achievement (for the Hawks), a symbol of security and happiness (for Charlotte) or a symbol of corruption and loss of power (for those plotting against him).
Which just makes it so wonderfully ironic that Guts is the only one who made Griffith forget his dream.
Guts has always been so hungry for love and somehow, I think this has always been his dream from the start – to have someone want HIM, not necessarily his fighting skill whatsoever, but someone to appreciate him as a person, to trust him, to care for him, to watch his back, to just give a damn. I think Guts too had to make himself strong (just like Griffith), so he could survive in a world, where nobody gave horse shit for a young unfortunate boy. He sought love and attention in Gambino, he so much longed for the affection of his so called father, but he only ever got the opposite. Once Gambino died, Guts sort of lost himself, he belonged nowhere, so he would fight his way through the lands of the world and live day for day.
But then Griffith came along – a boy who knew nothing of Guts, yet was ready to fight to make him his. And even if Guts was irritated by it (and in his ears, none of what Griffith said probably made sense), I think in the end, we wanted to feel as if he actually belonged somewhere – and Griffith became this ‘somewhere’. Hell, it took one gesture to render Guts speechless and make him ‘obey’ (because I can’t believe he would have stayed, only cuz he lost a duel if he hated the idea of it)- it was a chance to finally get, what he wanted the most in the world – someone, who actually cared for him.
And after the Zodd encounter, we see him watch the moon, remember Griffith saying he has put himself in harm’s way for his sake and he is pondering if this is the answer he has been looking for all along. And the question is stated few chapters back, when we see the little Guts lie on the ground, after having killed Gambino – where is he going if the world has nothing good to offer? But maybe Griffith’s care and affection is this ‘good’ he longs for.
So he eventually leaves – because he wants to EARN his place by Griffith’s side – he isn’t simply aiming for a home, for warmth, he wants more – just like Griffith. Guts’s dream is, in a way, to stand by Griffith’s side and to be worthy of the care and affection Griffith has given him and not be eventually ‘left behind’ by the hawk, who always aims so high. Because by Griffith’s side is where he wants to be the most.
Another thing I would like to add is, that I don’t think Guts was unaware of Griffith’s feelings, I think in a way, he always knew. Which is I think he is rather shown to feel guilty, whenever Casca confronts him about it, than actually deny it. I think he felt guilty to be a special person to Griffith, even though he didn’t do anything to deserve it, while Casca made this her dream and fought for it. And when she told him about her life and how she came to fight for Griffith, the realisation hit even harder. He didn’t feel as if he would lose Griffith’s affection if he stayed, I think he believed he had already lost it and had to gain it back by becoming his equal.
This is amazing meta and actually makes perfect sense.
The point you bring up about guilt seems so fitting. It would explain why when Guts was leaving, he was trying so hard to convince himself that Griffith would recover from it, that it was nothing more than a stumbling stone, and imo the heightened emphasis on that really made it seem like he was convincing himself rather addressing his internal monologue to Griffith.
Also the reason why Guts refuses to look at Griffith after defeating him. (and okay from Griffith’s point of view that must have hurt like hell) I think it is because he already knew what kind of expression Griffith might be making. He just didn’t want to look at the hurt and trauma he at least subconsciously knew must be there because he knew that if he did turn around and see the slightest bit of genuine vulnerability in Griffith’s face he’d never be able to leave.
And leaving was necessary for his bigger goal of having Griffith ” look at him”.
In my opinion Guts at this point wasn’t just looking for affection anymore. As unworthy as he might have believed himself to be of it at that point, Guts knew that his friends cared about him, he knew Griffith cared too. He acknowledges as much when he says “Atleast this confirms that to you I’m still worth spilling blood for.”
I think Guts was looking for admiration here. Infact very specifically admiration from Griffith.His words along the lines of “I’m tired of always looking up at him….I want him to look at me too.” The words ‘look up at me’ are not said but at least to me they seemed heavily implied.
Somehow I got the vibe that Guts desired to have some sort of power over Griffith here. “Make him look’ ‘compelled to’ these are power words. Guts isn’t just trying to improve his chances here, he’s trying to initiate a shift in power dynamics.
Griffith effectively said that he wants to have someone who can stand up to him or put him down and Guts fully intends to be that guy. There’s actually also a shift in Guts character from this point.
It’s an arc we don’t pay as much attention to but the one year after Guts leaves, his behavior has shifted. It seems more traditionally ‘masculine’ . He seems more confident, nearly complacent , powerful, calm almost playful.
…Almost a little like the Griffith we were introduced to in the beginning of Golden Age.
And this is fairly interesting to me.
iirc the official translation goes for more of an equals feeling with Guts saying that he’s sick of looking up at Griffith from within his dream and he wants to stand beside him by achieving something of his own.
But I still get the same vibe you do tbh despite that. And I think it’s because Berserk’s take on equality, at least between Guts and Griff, isn’t that neither has power over the other, but that they both have an equal amount of power over the other. Because for them, emotional attachment is power. (”When did someone I was supposed to have in hand… instead gain such a strong hold over me?” eg).
I totally think Guts wants Griffith to love him/admire him/etc and that comes with an implicit understanding that it gives Guts power over Griffith, the same power Griffith already has over him.
Like look at this page right after Guts leaves.
“I got this idea in my head from hearing Griffith’s words. If I hadn’t… so… can I say I’ve set out by my own will?”
I rly get the sense that Guts’ immense sense of admiration for Griffith is something he desperately wants returned because it makes him feel insignificant. Contrast this to the post-Zodd scene where he pledges his sword to Griffith after the reveal that Griffith saved his life “for his sake” – there Guts is holding his sword up, looking up at the sky, open body language, determined expression and monologue, meeting Griffith’s imaginary gaze, powerful. Here Guts is curled in on himself, no sword, second-guessing himself, looking down and away from imaginary Griffith, and Griffith dwarfs him.
He needs to return to the point in time where he believed (knew) Griffith had strong feelings for him and it made him feel powerful and limitless.
Add the way he keeps himself detached from the Band when he gets back and still plans to leave right up until they rescue Griffith, and I feel like his aloofness is both a) totally very similar to Griffith, parallels which delightfully continue for the rest of the manga, and b) defensive because he wants to prove that he’s not dependent on Griffith’s feelings towards him. Well, defensive is a strong word. But I do think he’s keeping himself detached on purpose because he’s cautious against Griffith’s “hold” over him, his own (he believes unrequited) emotional attachment to Griffith, yk?
And one step further, I feel like Griffith post-torture could’ve been kind of a wake up call that this line of thinking is a little silly. That Griffith was just a person, and Guts was just a person, and they wanted an emotional connection, and all these thoughts of Griffith looking down on Guts and Guts wanting to stand by his side as an equal and believing that he wasn’t there yet etc just got in the way.
The fact is that Guts went out to become Griffith’s equal and when he got back, by any metric these two dudes employ to measure power and equality, Griffith was no longer even on the playing field. And Guts was just realizing that he threw everything away for a dream that ended up not even mattering in the end… when everything went to hell, Griffith leveled up by becoming a demi god, and they ended up back at square one playing the sequel game, mortal enemy edition.
you're the only one 