God it’s just the fucking worst isn’t it? And it’s so constant, both pre and post Eclipse, and so shitty, and often straight up tonally jarring lmao.
I actually recently wrote out a whole rant about how the depiction of Casca during the Eclipse isn’t just incredibly offensive but straight up objectively, qualitatively bad writing and bad art, but then I never posted it bc I got uncomfortably specific lol. But man, and it’s not just the Eclipse either, it’s everywhere.
Actually can I just (not cut for anything particularly triggering, just me going on a brief rant anyway lol. also tits)
imagine drawing this. You’re an artist and writer, you’re trying to depict a thematically resonant, significant moment that’s also very sad and emotionally touching, and this is how you choose to do it. Look at those metallic looking nipples. Do you think Miura even knows that nipples usually aren’t hard?
Why does he want the het male portion of his audience to be turned on during a sad moment that takes place after an attempted rape?
Or, conversely, why are so many men so awful that it doesn’t even occur to Miura or the majority of his audience that the image accompanying this sad text is inappropriately eroticized? That a mostly naked woman with those ridiculously (and kind of racistly lbr) bright, eye-catching nipples and gravity-defying tits actively fucks with the emotional tone you’re theoretically trying to convey? Because it’s just default to them: woman = naked and sexy as often as possible no matter what the context is.
Honestly it’s infuriating, and this example is nowhere near as fucked up as the Eclipse, or even the way Miura continues to eroticize Casca’s body when she’s traumatized and regressed to like mental infancy, etc.
The backgrounds and details are very nice but the characters seems too cutesy for my personal taste. Even the monsters in Casca’s dream world lacked a visceral feeling besides being dick monsters. I am glad we didn’t see any rape but at the same time I think the drawings could of been rougher. I also wasn’t a fan of Casca’s magical girl dress. But maybe the translation will help… *Goes back to read Golden Age Arc*
@laraskadi said:
indeeeeeeeeeeeeeed I
feel this so much! I NEED her to look like Casca and act like Casca,
otherwise it just looks like a random person…? And in that dress no
less… Put her in some armor with a normal face and I’ll cry my eyes out
(putting this in one post bc it’s all about art)
Yeah mte. Like I won’t deny that Miura’s always drawn women with exaggerated eyes and tiny mouths, but she seemed so much more expressive before and idk, the exaggerated faces seemed less jarring with the flatter/cartoonier style of the golden age, as opposed to the current mix of hugely exaggerated features and realistic details? Plus the shape of her eyes makes a difference, she’s so feminized now the dress is just the cherry on top of that really unpleasant sundae tbh.
And more for the first reply:
Yeah the art is a lot like, heavier and darker, thicker lines (more lines holy fuck) but it lacks the fluid visceralness we saw during, eg, the actual eclipse, in moments like this:
and like the sheer business of the art now means we don’t get evocative and terrifying contrasts like this:
And yeah the style in general seems less suited to monsters now. compare above to
like man I want to see the monsters, not just suggestions of them.
yk the anime is a good guide to how to copy really gay scenes shot for shot and suck the homoeroticism right out of them
more examples bc i’m bored and bc the contrast also rly illustrates how well the manga sells it
consider: Berserk Armour vs Femto designs
versus
I just rly like how Femto’s exoskeleton can be drawn to either emphasize
Griffith’s face underneath the helmet or obscure it. It’s such a
good way to either depict Femto as a godlike otherworldly demon or a
petty asshole who can taunt Guts but can’t bring himself to kill him – or
like the bottom pic where after several epic godlike shots from
Ganeshka’s awed point of view, we see his face when he’s doing something
much more Griffith-esque: predicting what Skull Knight will do based on
logic and tactics rather than magic knowledge of fate.
Guts’
armour is more literal – when his face is hidden beneath the helmet,
he’s lost himself to his darkness. Femto’s is symbolic as his helmet
doesn’t change, only the angle we see him from changes, but imo it’s
really well-utilized to emphasize or de-emphasize whatever remains of
Griffith. And I think it’s definitely a trend – not 100% the case in
every panel, but overall when we see Femto’s whole face, it tends to be
in moments of weakness or pettiness, in moments where he’s demonstrating human feelings, however twisted they’ve become, and when either his eyes or his
mouth or both are obscured, it tends to emphasize his distance from
Guts, his godliness, his monstrosity.
Also, and tbf this I’m
less sure about bc I can’t remember every moment where Guts thinks about
Femto, but in general I think it holds true: Guts tends to picture
Femto with face partially or entirely obscured when he’s feeling the distance/difference between them and/or murderous rage
and face very visible in moments that emphasize Guts’ similarity to him, and danger of becoming him
Okay, onto the Golden Age. This part is going to go up to Promrose Hall, because that’s when Guts’ image of Griffith shifts dramatically. But from their first meeting til then, Guts’ sexual attraction to Griffith is like, painfully clear to me.
This is largely focused on visual chemistry and eroticized shots of Griffith specifically from Guts’ point of view, because there’s a lot in these first few chapters – it’s the main lens through which we’re introduced to their relationship and chemistry up close, rather than through the vague implication of their dynamic and how it ended which we saw last arc. I’ve limited myself to contextually relevant moments and really blatant shots that go above and beyond just showing that Griffith is objectively attractive, to showing that Guts feels the attraction. If I took every image of Griffith looking pretty while Guts looks at him I’d be posting half the Golden Age here.
There’s also going to be some step by step analysis of Guts’ giant boner for Griffith and how their relationship screams romance, but (hopefully) less overly detailed than chapter 7 was.
So, Guts kills Basuzo while Griffith watches intently. We know immediately that he’s the god we saw a few chapters ago because of his helmet, so we’re primed to be excited to find out how they’re going to meet and become close. We can already see that Griffith is interested in Guts, so how will Guts feel back?
It’s a bit anticlimactic actually – Guts kills Corkus’ crew, then Guts fights Casca, and finally Griffith, bored, shows up and perfunctorily stabs him.
But then Griffith takes off his helmet and Guts is treated to two and a half pages worth of sexy hair reveal, complete with two panels of tantalizing teasing first:
Note that this isn’t to tease a reveal, say, that he’s the same demon Guts was
really pissed off at in the Black Swordsman arc, and it’s not to tease his human appearance for the sake of the audience – we already know exactly who he is thanks to the helmet that keeps getting centre stage in panels, and people calling him “Griffith,” and we’ve already seen his face and hair in Guts’ flashback and while he’s lounging in the grass. This slow, sensual reveal is for Guts and only Guts. It illustrates and sets the tone for his first glimpse of Griffith, not ours.
And lbr everything about this screams love interest. The tantalizingly slow reveal, complete with long hair blowing in the wind, and two full pages worth of Guts looking at him. Guts’ first sight of Griffith illustrates exactly what he told us: he’s beautiful, noble, and larger than life. And there’s no skimping on the beauty part of that.
Then when Guts wakes up three days later and remembers he’s been stabbed the image of Griffith he first flashes to isn’t a helmeted soldier stabbing him, it’s Griffith letting his hair down.
This is what made the biggest impression on him. The sexy hair blowing in the wind.
The look on Guts’ face is a lot more complicated than “grr I’m mad bc I got stabbed.” He looks like Griffith blew his mind a little. Look how bright Griffith is too compared to the shadows over Guts’ hair and face, look at the light reflected in Guts’ eyes – it’s a nice visual set up for Guts’ later admiration of him, but right now Guts has nothing to go on but the fact that Griffith stabbed him and is also hot, so the fact that he’s shining in his mind already is more than a little suggestive.
Now comes the first duel, and man. Let’s just take a moment to look at the way the characters draw attention to the fact that things are getting pretty gay. “Because I want you, Guts.” “Are you a homo?” [gay silence.]
I can think of three reasons to have your characters come out and say, “hey that sounds gay. Are you gay?” when your story isn’t textually a gay romance. One is to follow it up with reassurance that nah it’s ok, they’re totally straight and we’re just acknowledging that yk we can see why you may think it’s gay, dear reader, and shutting that down. Two is ‘ha ha gay jokes are funny.’ And three is to plant the idea in the reader’s head and help contextualize what we’re seeing without actually confirming one way or the other.
This isn’t a one. It’s not shut down, it’s left hanging. And while it’s a lightly humourous moment due to the awkwardness, it’s not really a joke, especially because this is likely meant to reference Guts’ rape trauma, and all the gay content in the manga is played for drama, not comedy, both text and subtext. This feels like a very solid three to me.
And look at how Griffith is looking at him right before Guts asks if he’s gay. Like, no wonder the question is brought up. This is top tier visual chemistry right here. So it’s certainly worth noting that the homoeroticism inherent in intense, sultry gazes like this is acknowledged and commented on right from the start, because we’re going to be seeing a lot of intense, sultry gazes.
And speaking of Guts’ trauma, at the start of this chapter Guts wakes up from a nightmare about it, implied to be caused by the fact that there’s a naked person lying on top of him (in that his monstrous attacker melds into the form of the person on top of him as he wakes up). His panic subsides when he realizes that person is a woman, and therefore doesn’t feel like a threat to him.
Later on when he has sex with Casca he references this moment, saying to her, “When you first saved my life. For some reason… at that time… [your touch] was fine. But only with you.” I assume this is meant to be taken as romantic, an early sign that they’re ~right for each other. But it’s a re-write of what actually happened, which is that Guts was on the verge of panicking until he realized she wasn’t a man. “A woman…?”
“Only with you” is also factually incorrect.
Guts and Griffith’s exchange here before they start fighting is loaded with both sexual innuendo and direct statements. “I want you, Guts.” “Are you a homo?” “You can have what you want, my sword or my ass.”*** “I don’t dislike doing things by force.”
The duel is full of visual innuendo, and tbh I was going to avoid getting into sword imagery because while phallic symbols are an extremely well-worn literary device they’re still the lowest common denominator of gay subtext, but the stage is set so perfectly, through sexually charged dialogue and intense gazes from Griffith, for us to read the duel as a substitute for sex that the innuendo is lent a lot of extra weight for this scene.
Behold:
To summarize: Griffith gives Guts bedroom eyes, says he wants him, Guts awkwardly asks if he’s gay, Griffith doesn’t answer, Guts says Griffith can fuck him if he wins, there’s rapey undertones to the whole thing given Guts’ offer of like sex slavery and Griffith’s “doing things by force” line, the duel involves Guts neutralizing Griffith’s threatening sword by biting it, Griffith wins by dislocating Guts’ arm ie destroying his site of phallic physical power ie symbolic unmanning (and like I said, normally I wouldn’t pull out the freudian analysis but this scene fucking begs for it) which fits right in with the sexual stakes of the duel, and then Griffith does this:
And Guts is fucking dazzled. Guts looks like Griffith just swept him off his feet. That’s not disgust, or fear, or rage, or hate, or bitterness, or resentment, or humiliation, that is the Guts who describes Griffith as “beautiful, noble, and larger-than-life.”
Like what I’m saying is that, if Casca being able to touch Guts this early without him freaking out is considered romantic, what’s Griffith being able to grab Guts like this and declare that he belongs to him after literally winning his ass in a homoerotic fight considered?
Ok that’s that on the fucking gay duel. Moving on.
Imo the first really blatant instance of Guts feeling sexual attraction to Griffith as conveyed through visuals is here:
It’s not just Guts’ pov shot of Griffith’s ass – that’s pretty neutral by itself – it’s the over-the-shoulder wet and sensual look beside it, background fading to black as Griffith takes his full attention. It’s totally unnecessary and conveys zero information other than that Griffith is wet and sexy and Guts needs to take a second to focus on that fact.
For reference, there’s another very similar depiction of Griffith later on (combining the nakedness and the over the shoulder profile into one image) from another character’s point of view:
I’m not comparing Guts to Gennon at all, but I am saying that Miura is consistent in using this type of image of Griffith to portray someone’s sexual attraction to him.
Here have one more particularly iconic instance of naked back, ass, and sensual over the shoulder profile:
There is nothing not blatantly eroticized about this. And remember: this isn’t even Guts looking at NeoGriffith and NeoGriffith looking seductive, this is Guts remembering seeing a glimpse of him after he hatched on a distant hill lmao, this is Guts’ goddamn imagination, and it’s almost identical to Gennon’s memory (naked Griff with flowy hair, light, left, dude imagining him, dark, right) except that Griffith’s blushing sex face is given much more erotic detail in a second panel. Like, I can’t. This page is a QED by itself.
Plus Guts’ awkward sweat drop in the panel immediately after the naked ass shot lol.
Notice these are p much the same expressions we saw when he asked if Griffith was gay.
Which
a) tells us the homoerotic vibe here is almost certainly intentional, as if that
wasn’t obvious and b) makes it really, really easy to read this as
repression at work. Guts looks at Griffith’s naked body, zeroes in on
how hot he is, then gets uncomfortable.
And, as another aside, I just want to note that there’s no reason for their first playful and friendly bonding experience to happen while Griffith is naked. It tells us nothing about him except that he’s not self conscious (unless you think he’s trying to seduce Guts), it adds nothing thematically or symbolically or tonally beyond the homoeroticism. His nakedness doesn’t do any of the things nakedness usually does in a story like make him seem vulnerable, it doesn’t make him seem particularly human or down-to-earth (hell his most dazzling moment yet has him naked with the sun at his back telling Guts he’s gonna get his own kingdom while Guts looks up at him in awe).
The most Griffith’s nakedness here accomplishes is the above image of Guts springing an awkward boner while walking in on him, and making a bunch of Guts’ flashbacks to Griffith = Guts picturing him naked.
Thanks for that, Miura.
So now we flash forward to our first sight of them three years later:
Griffith during the battle:
Griffith as the other army retreats:
Our first look at older Griffith, unhelmeted is at the bottom of a page. The pose he’s in, drawing his helmet up, gives off cutie pulling hair behind their ears vibes, at least imho. He’s even got that under-eye blush for extra appeal here. It’s very pointedly at-odds with the helmeted conqueror of a battlefield we just saw; his beauty is deliberately emphasized in juxtaposition to his role as the leader of the “grim reapers of the battlefield.”
The next page reveals:
It’s Guts’ view of him. Our first glimpse of Griffith after three years have passed is intended to emphasize his surprisingly un-grim-reaper-like prettiness with a reveal that it’s from Guts’ perspective as he quietly watches him. After this we abruptly shift to a victory procession a few minutes later, making this brief moment stand out a little bit more. (And correspondingly our first glimpse of Guts’ face after three years is while he’s focused on Griffith.)
Then later this chapter we have Griffith looking ridiculously hot when he interrupts Guts and Casca’s argument.
Knowing what we learn later about Casca feeling jealous of Guts and the whole love triangle scenario, showing him here with that extra sensual lighting as they both turn to look at him – Guts and Casca in shadow, Griffith in the light – handily serves as a visual set-up for the concept of Guts and Casca as romantic rivals for Griffith. He’s shown here as an object of desire to them to an almost ridiculous extent, like, look at that picture.
Now I’m skipping ahead to the post-Zodd staircase scene, aka the most romantic goddamn moment in the manga.
“Tell me… do I need a reason each time… I put myself in harm’s way… for your sake?”
In that one panel where we see Griffith from Guts’ shocked point of view, Griffith is drawn more beautifully than any of the surrounding pages in the chapter. Sultry eyes, gentle breeze blowing a few leaves around and his hair back with a few sexy strands in his face, background faded away again. Hell, I’d say it’s the prettiest image of a person Miura’s drawn so far lol, including all the women. It’s not just indicative of Griffith’s attraction to Guts (yk the bedroom eyes), it’s indicative of Guts’ perspective, how he sees him, especially considering Guts’ taken-aback, dazzled expression in the panel following.
This is what Guts sees when, pressed for an explanation for his “hot-headed”ness from Guts, Griffith declares that he risked his life for him for no reason at all.
This moment is pretty objectively romantic.
To compare, here’s Charlotte looking at him in the next chapter when Griffith approaches to charm her and add to her burgeoning crush during the hunt:
Clearly showing us Charlotte’s attraction, still with the romantic floating leaves in the breeze, plain background, and extra pretty, sensual eyes. It’s romanticized using the same visual tools, but this is less sexually charged, by far. It’s bland in comparison.
And I mean later on Guts places that image in the damn moon in a moment of contemplation right before he dedicates himself to him in return:
(btw if you need a citation for “himself” rather than “his sword,” Guts’ sword is an extension of himself and his life, this is explicitly stated in chapter 48 but it’s also an obvious metaphor throughout the story. Not that it rly matters, the meaning is clear imo, but yk I’m trying to be as thorough as I can and cover all my bases.)
Ok that’s about it for part 2. We’ve gone through the particularly relevant moments that signify sexual attraction with a clear contextual reason to do so, up to around Promrose Hall. You’re gonna have to buckle in for the next part because it’s looooooong and it’s largely about how Casca and the hetero subplot figure into this.
But I’m going to play you out with a few shots of Griffith from Guts’ perspective that I couldn’t find room for and are much less contextually relevant, and yet still ott attractive, because it’s fun, and like I said, this kind of point of view image does actually stop appearing after Promrose Hall, so I think it’s worth depicting how Guts sees Griffith before and after he becomes a distant figure to him. Enjoy the sultry gazes:
But after accidentally killing a kid during an overenthusiastic assassination and then overhearing the Promrose Hall speech, Guts sees himself like this:
And views Griffith like this:
And subsequent images of him from Guts point of view just look less deliberately eroticized now that Guts has placed Griffith on a pedestal high above him, rather than seeing him as someone within reach:
He’s still beautiful, but these images convey other information first and foremost – Griffith’s pride, his delight, his vulnerability, his rage. There’s a distinct lack of the sultry vibe we used to see all the time.
This is of course just the largely subjective impression I got while re-reading from (the first) chapter 12 to the second duel, but hopefully others see it too.
*** This is the one translation I’m using that isn’t the Dark Horse version bc I’ve heard on the grapevine that it’s more literally accurate and also it’s just so good lbr.
While I’m looking for moments that demonstrate Guts’ attraction to Griffith I might as well post a few outtakes.
Like, what the fuck is this about?
I’m not including it bc Guts is wtfing at the behelit here, not (presumably) swooning over Griffith, but look at his collagen-injected lip, the forced contrast of his hair to shadowed skin, the shining eyes.
Like Griffith is supposed to be pretty, but Miura’s Golden Age art often makes certain images of him stand out as Extra compared to the rest in a scene, and when that image is from Guts’ point of view it’s a little eyebrow raising regardless of the context.
And it’s not just cause it’s a closeup either:
same scene, same distance from the ‘camera,’ same level of detail, v different vibe.
Nngh yeah. This.
I kinda noticed a little bit of a trend of Griffith looking kinda softer from Guts POV shots.
Even in the ‘inferno’ panel or that time after Guts leaves when he’s thinking of him. (The mobile app won’t let me attach pictures rn)
His features look rounder, softer. His hair is always extremely stylised, eyes exceptionally bright( bordering on the 70’s sparkly eye shoujo image) and looking away from Guts and lips are always darker, prominent and idk how else to say this but…juicier?
You mean these panels?
bc ia. I’m going thru the golden age now looking for this stuff specifically lol and tbh I’m skipping a lot that could be coincidence (like the outtake above) but in general it rly does look like Griffith gets some extra glamour when Guts is looking at him. It’s a little hard to separate bc he’s supposed to be really pretty but like, there are several scenes where the notably prettiest image of him is from Guts’ point of view.
consider the following:
tbh tho griffith’s second expression here fucks me up so much
i mean, cover his smile, and he looks almost like he’s holding back tears. there’s so much emotion in that one fucking drawing like… he’s hurt, but not really by guts’ words so much as the reminder of his dream. and it’s not like a sudden reminder of the weight of guilt on him or w/e, it’s like
idk like it reminds me of the moment griffith asked guts to kill julius and guts was like ‘just order me to do it’ and we didn’t see griffith’s expression then, and it probably wasn’t this intense, but i imagine guts’ answer was a disappointing reminder of the artificial distance between griffith and guts based on status and now class etc. and i feel like this is the same – this is griffith treating guts like the only friend he has and opening up in a vulnerable moment and guts returning that distance between them by reminding griffith of his dream.
and in this moment the reminder of his dream hurts not for all the reasons it should, but bc it’s a barrier between him and guts, yk?
idk this is such a crossroads moment imo and ugh this scene is so perfect
just based on guts’ first look at them, who would you guess is the love interest?
casca:
griffith:
Yes yes yes. This Exactly. I’ma little slightly not well I am excited right now so this might not make sense. But. They do this visual chemistry thing, the angles Griffith gets, the way his eyes are drawn, how they stand together, the light breeze running through their hair. How they fit together in the frame, bodies turned in. And you do this for 10 volumes almost with these characters and then suddenly do the same with Guts and Casca for one damn chapter and now we’re supposed to have that superimpose 50 chapters of the same thing with a different set of characters. Like chemistry. Where was this.
It’s like buying a bag of m & ms and finding Cheetos inside Like I don’t hate the Cheetos. But that’s not what I signed up or paid emotional investment for .
This makes perfect sense and ia, when it comes to visual language Griffith is pretty straightforwardly romanticized and eroticized from Guts’ perspective.
like look at Guts’ point of view shot right here
first thing he thinks of when he wakes up after sensing a naked woman in bed with him:
griffith looking vulnerable and in need of rescue with his hair splayed out
this which is even more eroticized than those first panels
actually don’t quote me on this bc i’d have to re-read to make a real judgement call here, but I think these kinds of shots (from Guts’ perspective specifically) actually peter out after the Promrose Hall speech?
which, if so, makes it even more likely to me that it’s purposeful bc that’s when his view of Griffith shifts from him being a guy he likes who likes him back to being a distant goal.
though Griffith remains beautiful, noble, larger than life, dazzling, pretty, etc just to throw a few words guts has used to describe him, in Guts’ mind:
and then all bets are off once guts starts thinking about neogriff.
(the waters get a little muddier once miura starts drawing griffith like a wet dream every time he’s in a panel but honestly this shot of guts thinking about him goes above and beyond to a ridiculous extent)
oh also i was gonna say that it blows that casca gets super diminished and girlier once she ends up slotted into the love interest role, like judeau even comments on it ffs.
just based on guts’ first look at them, who would you guess is the love interest?
Was I the only one who thought they might actually kiss in this scene the First time you ever saw/ read it? Because I did . I was ready to react. I was about to go on all those sites and say. “ YOU THOUGHT YOU COULD FOOL ME INTO THINKING THIS WAS NOT GAY. I WAS NOT FOOLED. I ALWAYS KNEW!! “
But it never happened.
And I was like “oh” as I calmly shut the page I’d just opened to rant and go nuts on.
So, I thought Griffith would go for a kiss after taking Guts’ face in his hand and saying he belonged to him forever and ever. This scene also is a good place for it.
If this were a man and a woman everyone and their mother would be making gif sets of this and saying how they were so close to kissing after having the “what is this relationship” talk only to be interrupted by the plot. They would be doing this even if they never verbally said their feelings and everyone would accept it as a fact because straight people.
i never thought they’d kiss because I never expect anything I really want to happen lol. but like, this scene is as romantic as you can get without a kiss. if one of them was a woman people would call you delusional for suggesting their feelings are platonic lmao, like:
gentle breeze wafting griffith’s long hair across his face? check declaration of feelings while looking away followed by a turn and hard eye contact? check awkward, surprised response? check inconvenient interruption? checkmate
going back to the manga but you cannot look at these panels and then tell me with a straight face that we’re supposed to think their feelings are brotherly or whatever:
and yk what while i’m on this and since yesgabsstuff brought up the duel, you don’t have your characters ask each other if they’re gay, fail to confirm or deny, and say things like, “if you win you can have my sword or my ass,” if you’re not trying to point the audience in a certain direction.
it’s subtext, but it’s like, Merry Christmas Mr Lawrence style subtext, where it’s not just a nice bonus if u recognize the symbolism or the gay audience reaching bc we’re desperate, but it’s the clear intended reading.
In fact, I’ll go one further – the very first parallel we have for Guts and Griffith, the first example we’re given to contextualize the mysterious, intense relationship between Guts and Griffith/Femto and the nature of the sacrifice – which we already know is what happened between them – is the Count and his wife. “The person you loved the most and hated the most!” Cue that shot of Femto looking slightly over his shoulder so there can be no doubt who also buried his fragile human heart.
(like i just re-read this scene and i love it so much because everything leading up to these panels exists to make the audience go “what the fuck is their deal?” like puck even directly asks “what happened between those two?” And then we get the Count’s story and it’s like, ohhh ok i guess they were in love at one point and then betrayal and despair followed and now one’s a demon and one’s really pissed off. gotcha. And then nothing in the golden age disabuses you of that notion.)
(ps “That’s right… you couldn’t do it. You couldn’t cut away half of yourself.” The Godhand to the Count. “[…]And that unkingly half of yours shall all be gathered then in that place.” Skull Knight to Guts.)
the dress is just the cherry on top of that really unpleasant sundae tbh.
you're the only one 