I’d say that argument is directly and unambiguously contradicted over and over again in the story, including by Griffith himself.
And like, literally the last thing Griffith thinks before sacrificing Guts is that Guts is more important than his dream. That’s why he’s sacrificing him. “You’re the only one who made me forget my dream.”
The main point of the Golden Age is to hammer home the concept that Guts is more important to Griffith than the dream, and it does it over and over and over lol. Everything revolves around that fact. And the sacrifice is a really clever (imo) culmination of that theme, not a weird last-minute contradiction of it.
Also I might try to add a quick explanation of my reading of the dream, ie it’s a defense mechanism/way for Griffith to escape his feelings, both guilt and the feelings for Guts that make him vulnerable and essentially destroyed his life, “the life of the person you loved the most and hated the most! you gave it to us so that you could bury your fragile human heart!” all that jazz. Which explains why Griffith chooses his dream over Guts even though he cares about Guts more (because he cares about him more). But idk if I could manage that without writing an essay, or more likely, linking one I’ve already written lol.
Wrt the second bit, idk what the fact that he had to sacrifice the other Hawks too has to do with it, it’s pretty clear to me that Godhand sacrifices are bigger and more epic than apostle sacrifices, but Guts still gets the spotlight even though there’s 30-40 others in the group. He’s the one Griffith’s last thoughts are directed to, he’s the one Slan singles out as a particularly excellent sacrifice, he’s the one Zodd directed his “prophecy” to and even makes sure to save so he can be sacrificed later (when he threw him a sword during the battle of Doldrey), while Rosine and the Count and Wyald killed a bunch of Hawks before the Eclipse without causing any issues. He’s the one Skull Knight singles out to give a warning to.
I like that the rest of the Hawks are included because it proves that Griffith does in fact care very much about all of them. I mean Casca’s flashback already proved that, but yk, it never hurts to underline Griffith’s capacity for caring about others, because Griffith himself downplays it as much as possible lol, to say nothing about the fandom. But I don’t think it detracts from Guts as the most important sacrifice either. He’s still above and beyond. He’s the one who caused Griffith’s behelit-opening despair, and he’s the one Griffith sacrifices to escape that despair.
Idk man, the sacrifice is like half the reason I ship griffguts, so I definitely don’t think it downplays or diminishes Griffith’s feelings for Guts in any way, imo it emphasizes how they’re front and centre as Griffith’s number one priority and central motivation in an immensely satisfying way.
Yup! Guts is so important mainly because he is the one person that was able to get behind Griffith´s defense mechanisms…
I think that Guts own fragility also plays a role in it…Guts doesn´t approach anybody…but soon he found himself being drawn to Griffith, but he also fought that urge…making him appear in Griffith´s eyes as somebody special…somebody who fought not just against the “perfect image” of Griffith, but also wished to be near the person…They were comrades at the beginning…before Promerose…
Then he succumbed to the image of Griffith…but for Griffith himself…nothing had changed…
On the other hand…Guts did perceive Griffith as a person of higher standing, that is clear when he says to Griffith, he should just order him to go and
kill that person when Griffith wished to ask him on a more personal
level…, simply due to his abilities…Griffith was oblivious to his own feelings for Guts (romantically or not…Guts was important for him)
The relationship is so fascinating because it is neither entirely fire nor water, but both…just at different times.
Yeah totally! It’s one of those relationships that could’ve been perfect for them, but they didn’t quite manage to set aside their false perceptions of themselves and each other in time, and that’s what ruined everything. I like how you put it, both fire and water but at different times. They’re fundamentally compatible but they miss out on that ultimate connection because they each prioritize the wrong thing at the wrong moments.
Like I maintain that if Guts had never heard the Promrose Hall speech, Tombstone of Flame would’ve been the scene that sealed the deal. Guts seeing Griffith’s vulnerabilities and being put in a position where his reassurance is what Griffith needs, demonstrating how human Griffith really is and how necessary Guts is to him. And Guts being able to be there for him and provide that reassurance.
But yk Guts overheard the stupid Promrose Hall speech, took it to heart, and prioritized dreams instead of human connection.
I’d say that argument is directly and unambiguously contradicted over and over again in the story, including by Griffith himself.
And like, literally the last thing Griffith thinks before sacrificing Guts is that Guts is more important than his dream. That’s why he’s sacrificing him. “You’re the only one who made me forget my dream.”
The main point of the Golden Age is to hammer home the concept that Guts is more important to Griffith than the dream, and it does it over and over and over lol. Everything revolves around that fact. And the sacrifice is a really clever (imo) culmination of that theme, not a weird last-minute contradiction of it.
Also I might try to add a quick explanation of my reading of the dream, ie it’s a defense mechanism/way for Griffith to escape his feelings, both guilt and the feelings for Guts that make him vulnerable and essentially destroyed his life, “the life of the person you loved the most and hated the most! you gave it to us so that you could bury your fragile human heart!” all that jazz. Which explains why Griffith chooses his dream over Guts even though he cares about Guts more (because he cares about him more). But idk if I could manage that without writing an essay, or more likely, linking one I’ve already written lol.
Wrt the second bit, idk what the fact that he had to sacrifice the other Hawks too has to do with it, it’s pretty clear to me that Godhand sacrifices are bigger and more epic than apostle sacrifices, but Guts still gets the spotlight even though there’s 30-40 others in the group. He’s the one Griffith’s last thoughts are directed to, he’s the one Slan singles out as a particularly excellent sacrifice, he’s the one Zodd directed his “prophecy” to and even makes sure to save so he can be sacrificed later (when he threw him a sword during the battle of Doldrey), while Rosine and the Count and Wyald killed a bunch of Hawks before the Eclipse without causing any issues. He’s the one Skull Knight singles out to give a warning to.
I like that the rest of the Hawks are included because it proves that Griffith does in fact care very much about all of them. I mean Casca’s flashback already proved that, but yk, it never hurts to underline Griffith’s capacity for caring about others, because Griffith himself downplays it as much as possible lol, to say nothing about the fandom. But I don’t think it detracts from Guts as the most important sacrifice either. He’s still above and beyond. He’s the one who caused Griffith’s behelit-opening despair, and he’s the one Griffith sacrifices to escape that despair.
Idk man, the sacrifice is like half the reason I ship griffguts, so I definitely don’t think it downplays or diminishes Griffith’s feelings for Guts in any way, imo it emphasizes how they’re front and centre as Griffith’s number one priority and central motivation in an immensely satisfying way.
it’s been a while since i read any of the lost children arc but i looked over some of it the other day and lol, there goes my assumption that Guts doesn’t actually know that a sacrifice has to be someone’s most important person/people.
and tbh I like this way more than Guts being in the dark and regarding the sacrifice as maybe a sign he wasn’t as important to Griffith as his dream after all. It fits Guts’ attitude towards Griffith better post-Eclipse, like the way he still knows that he was as important to Griffith as he wanted to be.
And his pretty significant devastation when NeoGriffith claimed he didn’t feel anything anymore.
And while he was unconscious while the Godhand were discussing it during the Black Swordsman arc, and they didn’t really say anything that revealing that everyone could hear during the Eclipse iirc, it still makes sense for me to assume that Guts could put 2 and 2 together re: the sacrifice requirements based on what he does know. Like he missed “it must be someone important to you, part of your soul” but he heard “the life of the person you loved the most and hated the most” so, that’s still pretty indicative.
Plus it really adds a certain something to Guts’ revenge campaign.
Like with the sacrifice as active proof of his importance to Griffith, it makes me wonder about what kind of complicated feelings that, say, the brand hurting in the presence of monsters might invoke.
legit. even innuendos aside, the uniqueness of the fight is a good reflection of the uniqueness of yk the circumstances, the relationship, it’s such a gr8 scene in general. and i do love those innuendos.
suddenly had the realization that we didn’t really get to see much of Griffith post-torture. Like yeah, he was there, we saw him, we got a great monologue about how in love with Guts he is, but what I mean is that like, all his trauma and all the pre-eclipse emotional devastation revolves around his permanent injuries rather than, yk like, ptsd.
We aren’t shown at all how the fact of being tortured constantly for a year might have traumatized him. Like everyone’s fucked up by the fact that he’s no longer physically capable of leading the Hawks, but like, even if he was, would he have been emotionally capable?
I mean a year of torture is huge, for any other character that would be the defining event of a narrative, whether he could physically recover or not. But Miura just kind of bypasses it entirely to focus on his physical dependency and his feelings for Guts. And I mean I love those feelings, I’m not complaining about the focus on that, but the lack of trauma wrt a year of experiencing extreme pain is kind of conspicuous.
Idk it feels like the torture was just kind of Miura’s convenient lead-in to the Eclipse and way to destroy Griffith’s dream, and it feels a little unfortunately shallow overall. Like he could’ve even just had a reference or two to how being tortured for a year might have affected him – like say Ubik using it to help convince him to make the sacrifice: doesn’t being an incorporeal being who can’t feel pain sound p tempting right now?
Also relatedly, consider this:
NeoGriffith isn’t just Golden Age Griffith transformed into a demon transformed into a mysterious wildcard. NeoGriffith is Golden Age Griffith + a year of torture transformed into a demon transformed into a wildcard. Like his “base” isn’t the Griffith we came to know and love over however many chapters of the Golden Age we got before Guts left, his base is, theoretically, an incredibly traumatized version of that Griffith we know.
Idk I just suddenly found myself wishing for more emotional/psychological exploration of the effects of that year of torture, and it made me wonder about NeoGriffith’s memories of being human. I feel like there’s potential there. I feel like there’s some thematic follow-through, along the lines of him being “beyond the reach of man” and Ganeshka’s empty threats, but some hints of emotional follow through would be v interesting.
honestly this is actually like a best of both words kind of thing because the canon switching focus to ptsd would have diminished some of the focus on his feelings for Guts, and I absolutely don’t want that lol, because that is seriously just, everything. “now he’s the sole sustenance keeping me alive” like holy fuck I wouldn’t trade a thing for that.
like keeping the narrative on his feelings for Guts vs the dream by focusing on how Griffith only thinks about Guts after losing both was the right choice for the story even if it might not be the most realistic possible reaction lol.
but it’s definitely something I kind of want to keep in mind when it comes to like, fic/headcanons/just thinking about characterization etc, bc the more realistic aspects of being tortured for a year are still worth exploring imo.
nice tbh, I could see this as a purposeful parallel – marrying someone for political gain while being in love with someone else – or at least consider it p telling that the Golden Age is full of people being in love with people they theoretically shouldn’t be, whether that’s actually true or whether their feelings conflict with their goals or whether it’s their own issues and insecurity talking lol.
Guts and Griffith are surrounded by like, echoes of their relationship from various angles and I could see this as one of them.
yeah i was also super into that fanart. probs not the artist’s intention but made me think of casca holding guts’ sword after he left lol
mm on the subject of broken swords in general, ngl ia, i like the idea of the dragonslayer breaking
like if guts dies that would be an appropriate af prelude to it. a nice subtle rebuke of living your life by the sword.
actually it could also be a gr8 prelude to guts sorting out his feelings properly. you know like how i say that i want to believe guts’ current sidequest is a distraction from his conflicted feelings towards revenge/griffith/etc and what he should actually be doing is trying to untangle the emotional snarl that happens when your “true light” is also your nemesis lol. well the point is guts’ sword shatting could be a nice symbol of his distractions failing him and leaving him no choice but to confront his own feelings. maybe say something.
like it would go nicely with a third duel that has a strong emotional core
I genuinely think the authorially intended reading of Guts’ decision is that it’s complicated and there are multiple reasons Guts is choosing to take Casca to Elfhelm over revenge right now. It’s not a simple matter of Casca straightforwardly being more important to him or just choosing Casca over Griffith.
Hopefully this is the kind of answer you’re looking for, idk the subject is a little broad. I’ve kind of said this in some other posts too but I think it’d be handy to have a nice and orderly list to link to so I’m just throwing it all out in response to you.
So here are the various complicated reasons I think Guts has for going on his take Casca to Elfhelm quest:
1. He gives a fuck about Casca. He gave a fuck about her and saved her life even back when he hated her, because she was his comrade, and I’d certainly hope he cares about her now.
2. Elf cave is gone, and he’s not so shitty a person that he’s just going to abandon her in a field for ghosts to eat.
3. He is aware that revenging made him a worse person and he wants to be better. Guts at his best is someone who does not abandon his friends and family but rather stands by them in their hours of need, and he wants to be that person again.
Good Guts:
Bad Guts:
Good Guts:
Bad Guts:
Like, yk, abandoning people or staying with them is kind of Guts’ major thing throughout the story.
4. He is longing for a piece of his lost past, and Casca represents the Hawks.
Additionally suggested by how every time he pictures her from the past, after that last pic, it’s as a Hawk commander.
And statements like this:
And the general fact that he’s trying to “force” her sanity back despite forboding warnings and actually contemplating on page how awful it might be for Casca, suggesting that it’s less for Casca’s own sake and more Guts’ selfish need to regain some of his happy past.
5. Griffith looking human and sexy makes him forget his urge to kill, lessening the temptation of revenge and probably making Guts doubt his ability to follow through.
nuff said
6. Guts’ whole revenge campaign was less about revenge and more about making himself feel better and getting Griffith’s attention. Last time he saw Griffith the dude declared that he was completely free of his feelings for him and then “deserted” him in the snow lol. This has also lessened the temptation of revenge – now pursuing Griffith feels extra fruitless, because Griffith (claims he) doesn’t give a fuck.
7. He feels guilty for abandoning Griffith back in the Golden Age and refusing to abandon Casca (this time) is a way to make up for that mistake.
8. Like the Beast of Darkness says, Casca reminds him of “the wound Griffith left” because he wants to keep feeling the pain he caused him. Both because it helps simplify his conflicting and confusing feelings into rage, and because, harkening back to point 6, imho it’s a masochistic reminder that he meant enough to Griffith for him to be worth lashing out at.
I mean consider the context of some discussions of wounds in berserk. “I too want a wound… that I can say you gave me.”
Or Griffith tracing his shoulder where Guts’ sword failed to touch him, maybe:
Anyway regardless of how suggestively that statement can be taken in the greater context of Berserk and wounds, there’s definitely some truth to it because it’s what Miura gave as the reason he didn’t kill Casca:
9. He’s still planning to return his focus to Griffith eventually. He hasn’t so much given up his revenge quest as put it on hold. It’s probably easier to say “not now” to himself than to say “never.”
10. Narrative convenience keeps him on the straight and narrow. eg:
cue Guts literally passing right out ten seconds later. it’s pretty easy to decide to get on a boat instead of get revenge when you can barely stand and going for revenge would be literal suicide. and even then Guts needed Serpico to step in and tell him not to be a dumbass.
Soooo yeah I think that about covers the various reasons Guts has for putting aside his revenge quest to take Casca to Elfhelm, which add up to smthn a lot more complicated than choosing Casca over revenge. I contemplated adding another section that’s like… a giant list of Guts utterly failing to prioritize Casca or demonstrate that she’s “more precious than Griffith” lol, but I might just do that in a separate post next time I’m feeling salty.
@freewilllife I’m c/ping this bc that post is really long to reblog imo lol
I half-wonder if this is an issue with Miura writing some of Berserk
while depressed lol, considering how utterly cynical the Conviction arc
is.
I think this is the case.Depending on the real life issues of the author…and yes I think it somehow is fitting…
Because
sometimes a relationship even an unequal one is better than being
alone, however it can turn out worse if the dependent state doesn´t
develop…
Somehow I think ( I know what a thought…most
Griffith/Guts fans do know that I suppose) that Griffith and Guts had a
dependency on each other that could have turned into a nice
relationship, but fate and their own insufficient communication skills
prevented it.
Guts wished to be the equal of Griffith…he
wished to acquire it…The way he chose was…It would have not been bad if
he had somehow come to another realisation than committing murder is his
“dream” ( That is just my priority maybe?).
Casca on the other
hand wished to maintain an unequal relationship at all cost…she wished
to be near Griffith, later Guts. It is depicted as if Casca only wished
to be Griffith´s sword since she wished to stay in his shadow…Whereas
Guts wished to obtain an own dream in order to be his equal…
Yeah there’s something to be said for Guts and Casca’s (and Charlotte’s) respective reactions to hearing Griffith’s dream speech. Even if it was a stupid speech and Guts’ decision was misguided, he’s still the only one who was like, well I’d better go out and achieve something so I can be his bff.
And it’s also very telling that Guts invited Casca along on his dream adventure – it shows that Guts is not thinking of her as an equal, he’s thinking of her as support for him, the way she was support for Griffith, rather than someone who could achieve her own dream and become an equal w/ him and Griffith.
(This probably says more about how Miura sees romantic (het) relationships as opposed to All-Important Bonds Between Men, but yk.)
Like imo the whole notion of dreams + equals is stupid as fuck, but it’s what Guts is basing his life around at that point and Casca just doesn’t figure in as a potential equal as far as he’s concerned.
Also of course I completely agree that Guts and Griffith’s relationship could’ve been exactly what they both needed, and could’ve been (and was for a time) a hugely positive influence on both of them, but fate and their own issues interfered and ruined it. Like I don’t think they were ever not equals – regardless of their stupid arbitrary standards, their feelings for each other made them equals, and I s2g the water fight is symbolic of that fact.
Like, not literally but symbolically, Griffith won the first fight, Guts won the second – the waterfight. So when Guts won a third – the second duel – it fucked up the balance and resulted in Griffith losing everything, and demonstrated that Guts was leaving based on a false premise.
(also lmao yeah the dream Guts landed on is kind of hilarious in how terrible it is. i love that you describe it as ‘committing murder’ bc it’s not exactly far off)
this isn’t a complete thought here but i wonder/hope that there’s some narrative irony happening or going to happen if anything? idk like of course the ceremony and events leading up to griffiths reincarnation as a perfect image of his dream and ideal self would try to hammer home cynicism of not needing others enough. guts kind of well with the campiness of the arc too ig. i hope this makes a little sense i haven’t read conviction in a long time.
Yeah no I get what you mean, ngl I was kind of thinking something similar while re-reading those chapters, like, everything Egg says about relationships sounds like it could come straight from a Griffith who has been burned lol. And it is the lead-up to the creation of Griffith’s perfect world, which Egg is advocating for here. So in that way it does maybe make sense to be extra cynical, reflecting back on Golden Age stuff through a whatever the opposite of rose coloured lens is.
like, maybe that’s Femto’s perception of that relationship lol.
I mean honestly this is exactly how I think Griffith thought of himself after the second duel/even tombstone of flame, word for word. And again, that’s something that could’ve changed so easily if Guts had just told him how he actually felt.
So I can’t accept it as an objective statement, but a subjective statement filtered thru bitterness + self-loathing? Kinda works.
Also yeah the extremely campy tone of this arc does kind of lend itself to more meta (in the self-referential sense, not the fandom essays sense) stuff like this imo.
My misgiving is that this seems like more thought than Miura put into it lol. But idk I should probably re-read the whole arc before I say something like that, like maybe there are indications that we’re not meant to take some of the Conviction arc themes as objective truth, and I just don’t remember/never noticed them.
every time i re-read a bit of the conviction arc i want to say something about its depiction of relationships, whether that gels with the rest of the story, etc, but it’s always so hugely daunting
in part because it seems to contradict everything i get out of the golden age lmao
like according to conviction arc themes, the fatal flaw in griffith and guts’ relationship was that it was too intense and they needed each other too much
like, according to the conviction arc
the problem here isn’t that Guts failed to understand his own importance to Griffith and therefore left, the problem was that he was important to Griffith at all. Griffith should have been able to rely on himself and no one else.
look at this:
transcription bc the writing is hard to read:
But those threatened by the dark… can by no means ever let go of a torch. All they can do is stare in blank surprise at their illuminated, disgustingly cruel selves… and continue to suffer it… And to protect their stunted self-esteem they depend on it… all the while hating it. Cravenly… deceitfully…
(They’re even both on the giant hands, and Luca and Guts both let go self-sacrificially. It’s a very direct parallel.)
Of course, this statement is extremely cynical and delivered by an antagonist. But the narrative seems to fully support it regardless:
According to the Conviction arc, Griffith was right when he said this:
And Guts was right to leave. Guts and Griffith’s problem was that they were never equals, and they admired and resented and clung to each other in turn.
I absolutely cannot reconcile the themes of the Conviction arc with the Golden Age, because that is clearly not the point of the Golden Age.
Oh but bthump, you might say, the point is that Guts and Griffith were too obsessed wtih each other while not being equals and that was a bad thing, while Guts and Casca have an equal relationship and therefore they are an example of a good relationship, just like Nina and her shitty boyfriend up there.
Well, sorry to say, the Conviction arc is also gtsca negative, here’s Casca stating the theme right before saying it also applies to her:
Stop relying on other people, Casca.
There’s also “a person hurts someone just because they’re strong” as a prelude to Guts assaulting Casca. Like, they’re not a happy healthy equal relationship either lol, either pre or post Eclipse.
Of course, it’s worth noting that the Conviction arc is very Black Swordsman-y, and therefore its “most relationships are bad, actually” message may not be wholly sincere, but may be more a reflection of Guts’ current stupidity.
eg
Will you? Because to me it looks like you got caught up in trying to kill incorporeal images of the Godhand and trying to find Griffith and completely forgot about her, only remembering the whole “save Casca” plan once you realized you couldn’t kill the images you were swinging at.
Yeah Guts, at a time like this you’re.
Someone else’s strength, Isidro’s, saved her.
And of course, Guts’ “I can do everything myself” stupidity continues until he sexually assaults Casca and finally realizes maybe he needs some people to rely on. It’s all bookended by the Beast of Darkness, and it’s later contradicted by Guts’ rpg group. I mean, he gains them because they’re all fucking clinging to him and considering him better than them lol. Farnese calls him her saint, Isidro idol worships him, there are parallels drawn between Guts and the group and Griffith and his followers a lot.
But again, by Conviction arc logic, the rpg group is bad. Following Guts is bad. But that’s obviously not the case.
But like, man, the Conviction arc just hammers in this shit about unequal relationships and clinging to others, resenting the torches in the darkness, etc etc etc, over and over and over. Even the religious stuff feels like a statement on unequal relationships – people clinging to a God like Nina clung to Luca like Casca clings to Griffith then Guts, like Griffith and Guts clung to each other. Like it’s hard to dismiss it all as bullshit. But it’s so fucking awful lol, I absolutely loathe it.
And it is directly contradicted by stuff like the fact that this is portrayed as good:
I half-wonder if this is an issue with Miura writing some of Berserk while depressed lol, considering how utterly cynical the Conviction arc is. Or maybe this is all going to come back front and centre and we’ll find out the rpg group is also fucked up and about to tear itself apart. I mean if a person hates someone because they’re weak and hurts someone because they’re strong, everyone in the rpg group should be full of resentment towards Guts. Come to think of it, the Hawks should’ve all hated Griffith. Falconia should hate Griffith. It should be another Tower of Conviction, by this logic, full of resentful baby-eating heretics lmao.
OR – is that a statement on the world Griffith overturns? Silat saying tyranny will always exist, that’s the reason of man, and Jarif responding with, yeah well Griffith’s world lies outside of your idea of reason. Like, Egg’s wish, and therefore humanity’s collective wish, was for an ideal world where that shit he says about relationships doesn’t apply, right?
I just don’t fucking know what the point is man. Some relationships are good, some relationships are bad, and there’s no rhyme or reason to which we’re saying are good and which we’re saying are bad, or why.
I will tell you one thing tho: according to Conviction arc logic, Guts and Griffith are each others’ gods. So that’s fun.
Also… because Guts and Griffith’s power dynamics shift over the course of the Golden Age, my conclusion that their issue isn’t that they’re unequal but that they’re idiots who don’t recognize until it’s too late that their feelings for each other make them equals, isn’t necessarily contradicted by any of this.
This is a pretty strong conclusive statement to be casually contradicted by a parallel to Nina and Luca an arc later.
Like Nina and Luca may be a bad match because Nina cares more for Luca than vice versa – Luca tends to see her as a responsibility lol. But that’s clearly not the case with Guts and Griffith.
But did Miura think about that, one wonders, because the parallels are very direct. Idk idk idk. Fuck authorial intent, whatever the hell Miura was going for, my reading still makes the most sense, contains the fewest contradictions, and is the least fucked up message.
this is absolutely me projecting my own interp of griff but i feel like this reaction is an “i get asked this way too often and it bothers me bc i don’t want to have to answer it/bc i’m p sure i know the answer and i’m trying not to think about it”
tho to be more fun I could also see “shit was i that obvious?”
or “oh no, he’s straight.” (luckily he’s wrong)
also his reaction in the ova is more along the lines of “yes, dumbass.” or actually i think guts’ q there was ‘in what way’ so it could also be like, giggling when the hot person asks if you like them but playing it off bc you don’t want them to know you like them. I mean they are basically awkward teenagers lol.
and i guess on a more meta level i can say that the fact that griffith doesn’t answer is like, so telling. i have no idea what miura wanted me to think here if he didn’t want me to think griffith was gay. he could’ve easily had griffith say something like ‘no’ or ‘don’t be ridiculous i’m talking about your fighting’ or whatever. or, yknow, not brought up the question at all lol.
Like ok in response to that one ask yesterday I talked about how Guts is projecting his trauma here a bit, so in theory that’s why it’s brought up and why Griff couldn’t immediately shut him down, but honestly – it’s immensely unnecessary. Guts changes his tune immediately after losing lol and they become mutually pining bffs like a week later. As set-up to make Griffith seem more threatening before switching to portraying him as a good guy, it’s unnecessary bc we’ve already seen femto, he’s already imbued with a lingering senese of threat from the bs arc. Plus, yk, it’s homophobic and annoying, playing into that predatory gay shit.
There’s got to be more to it than that, or it’s like, plain old shitty writing. So that’s why it’s also an early indicator of the true nature of their relationship, and neatly foreshadows how trauma makes it impossible for them to see it. Because that takes it from bad writing to good, layered writing.
idk what miura intended but i like Good Berserk so idc.
honestly no, or at least, not in the way you probably mean. and this isn’t me being a griffith apologist and reaching to make excuses for him lol, this is me looking at each scene and getting a very different conclusion from them. like i really just don’t think they logically add up to griffith turning into a rapist demon when you examine each scene you mention, even though it’s admittedly a really really easy connection to draw at a surface level and I can see why people do draw that conclusion.
tho i guess the first duel is actually kind of a “sort of,” to be fair.
at this point the golden age stuff is really hardcore calling back to the black swordsman stuff in an excellent way, and making some v overt comparisons between Griffith and Femto, largely for the sake of… well, for the sake of establishing both similarities and eventual differences.
Griffith’s narrative is a gradual tearing down of our (and Guts’) expectations about him – we start with this larger than life mythical sort of figure who we already know eventually betrays Guts and becomes a demon, so we begin with showing his ambition, his drive, the deference his followers show him, his ability to take out Guts with one parry, etc.
He literally starts out as basically the same antagonist we saw a few chapters ago, at least in Guts’ eyes:
Like, this is meant to show the singleminded obsession that we’re led to believe is why he betrayed Guts to become a demon.
But it’s also a set up for a later revealing subversion of expectations:
In all fairness to Griffith, Guts is the one who gave him the chance to win his loyalty in a fight. Griffith didn’t demand he fight for his freedom or anything lol, he just asked Guts to join, was taken aback when Guts refused, and then leapt at the chance Guts provided to win him in a fight. He even offered to wait a while until Guts had healed more. That’s like, consent right there.
But by taking Guts up on his ridic offer he is definitely kind of pushing the limits of this whole need he has for people to freely choose to follow him, which is also an early sign that Guts is extra special.
Anyway the more overt rapey overtones to this fight, ie Guts basically offering sex slavery if he loses, say more about Guts from a characterization standpoint than they do about Griffith. Griffith is like, lol sure, clearly having no actual intention of taking him up on the sex offer.
But coming after a) the Black Swordsman arc, and b) Guts’ childhood, what this exchange does is draw a comparison between Griffith and the men who abused Guts as a child, both to the reader and in Guts’ mind. (I would argue that this is why Guts insists on fighting him – after Griffith one hitted him Guts is actually scared of him, and his rape trauma informs how he interprets and responds to fear. But I digress)
And again, this is both subverted and played straight. We should’ve already been able to draw comparisons between Femto and Gambino. We’re told about the sacrifice, told Griffith sacrificed Guts, then shown a flashback to Guts’ childhood in which his trusted father figure sold him to Donovan. That’s our explanation for Guts’ vendetta against Griffith/Femto. The sacrifice was a replay of his childhood trauma, and it fucked him up. And our introduction to Griffith here, with Guts projecting his trauma at him, plays off that.
The subversion is in the fact that Guts basically falls in love with Griffith, or insert some platonic phrase meaning essentially the same thing here, because I’m trying to be as objective as possible here lmao. It’s not another Gambino situation where Guts loved him because he was his father and the only family Guts knew, Griffith earns Guts’ love. Griffith is loveable, frankly. He risks his life to save Guts after a week, he‘s put together a merc group that behaves more like one big happy family than like a bunch of hired killers, and Guts spends the three happiest years of his life with him.
We also have Casca’s running commentary helpfully informing us that Griffith’s feelings for Guts are genuine because he’s acting very out of character around him already.
Like to bring this home, Griffith’s narrative is:
to
One reason it was so brilliant to start with the Black Swordsman arc is because it reverses the expected narrative – instead of being shocked when a character we love decides to sacrifice Guts to become a demon, we’re surprised over and over again when a character we were introduced to as a villain turns out to be motivated almost entirely by his intense, very human, very vulnerable, very sympathetic, love for Guts, rather than the expected sociopathic ambition. (And even that ambition has a very human, very vulnerable, very sympathetic source, ie, guilt.)
And, basically, the first duel starts this narrative off by emphasizing the qualities we expect to see in Griffith while simultaneously sowing the seeds of the qualities we end up surprised by. Hence the exchange that emphasizes Guts’ rape trauma – because it also foreshadows/calls back to the sacrifice.
tl;dr the first duel is rapey as part of a comparison between Guts’ childhood trauma and being sacrificed eventually, and it serves as a starting point on which Miura builds a shitload of complexity and basically immediately begins tearing down the image of Griffith as a haughty evil sociopath. Plus at this point idek if Miura had the Eclipse rape in mind – he’s mentioned he decided to have Guts and Casca get together for the sake of more Eclipse drama partway through, and this is pretty early on.
Okay, that’s one out of three. Now, as for scene #2
no I’m kidding, I’ve already written a lot about the other two scenes so I’m not going to reiterate it all here esp since my first answer was already way too long lol.
So I got a more thorough explanation here, but basically the narrative treats the night with Charlotte as consensual sex despite her “no,” and therefore I do too in my reading of the narrative, it’s shitty but so is Miura, the end. Like, I consider this scene the equivalent of Guts grabbing Casca’s tit during an argument. Yk, was that foreshadowing for Guts sexually assaulting her (again but in a dramatic scene next time), or was it Miura being a dumbass?
The super short version of that is that Griffith does have issues with consent – his own – and if you tilt your head a bit you can argue that it might inform the Eclipse rape as a reversal of power dynamics. But it’s not a preview of it, it’s a contrast.
One thing I’ll finish with, though, is that there is a scene that I think can arguably foreshadow the Eclipse rape better than any scene you mentioned, and it’s chapter 39.
This is my very very thorough explanation of it (in like the last 3rd or so of that post), but long story short everything Griffith calls the king out on is something he hates/fears about himself, and I would definitely argue that this scene shows the guilt + self-loathing Griffith feels after trying to keep Guts at his side by force, through a really unsavoury parallel to the King’s predatory lust for Charlotte, as well as the parallel between how their respective “rejections” destroy them.
So yeah, if there’s any scene that I think foreshadows Griffith’s inner darkness being rapey, it’s Griffith comparing himself to the King in a fit of self-loathing. But there’s a reason my explanation is like a million words long lol, it’s pretty subtle, and therefore kind of hard to state definitively.
Okay, and one very last thing to throw out there as a conclusion to this mess:
The Eclipse rape only has the shock value Miura wanted it to have if it’s a contrast. It’s there to demonstrate that new Evil Demon Griffith is a bad dude who does horrible things Our Griffith wouldn’t do, and draw a hard line between regular human Griffith and Femto, which is also what enables Guts to express his feelings thru murderous rage.
This is lost on a lot of fans because people are really, really eager to see Griffith as Pure Evil The Whole Time, but straight up, objectively, that is what the text is going for – the Eclipse rape is a defining character moment for Femto because it’s a harsh contrast to the Griffith we, and Guts, have come to know and love. It’s meant to shock the reader and make them – or remind them to – hate Femto lol, it’s not meant to give them a pat on the back and tell them they were right about Griffith being an evil predatory gay all along. That’s just a very unfortunate side effect.
There is really something to be said about the significance of physical contact between Guts and Griffith.
Like the fact is that this intense moment of Guts racing for Griffith, wondering what on earth he can possibly do, is a lead-up to a single touch that sends Griffith into despair. This touch is what causes the Eclipse.
A similar physical touch marks the moment Griffith thinks of when he wonders when Guts gained such a strong hold over him:
Their first duel is the only fight either of them ever engage in, as far as I recall, featuring direct physical contact rather than swords (or other weapons) clashing, and moreover, the scene depicts the sense of a gradual physical pull between them. Before the duel, Guts wakes up from a nightmare featuring his childhood trauma, falling into a near panic as he wakes up and feels a body on top of him, until he realizes she’s a woman, not a man.
Touch is highlighted as a concept to take note of here, particularly Guts’ aversion to it.
Guts remembers Griffith as the figure on a horse that he couldn’t reach before collapsing, gazing down at him:
Then they duel. The fight begins at a distance, with swords. Griffith nearly wins without touching him, and again while on a higher plane than Guts bc goddamn Miura gets a lot of mileage out of that imagery:
But then Guts bites Griffith’s sword, they lose those swords, roll down a hill, and Guts just starts punching. We get significant commentary from onlookers highlighting the uniqueness of this fight bringing Griffith down from his heights of untouchability:
As well as from Guts:
Griffith wins with a hold, and finally:
The sequence leads up to this intense moment of physical contact: Griffith pulling him up and gazing into his eyes.
Throughout the Golden Age there aren’t a lot of casual touches between them, but when we do see them touch (pre-torture) it’s usually during a very significant moment.
(Or once, casually, right after Griffith has reminisced about this particular fight:
Not particularly emphasized, but still during a nicely fitting and illustrative moment.)
Griffith remembers another moment of physical contact between them while thinking about how he loses his composure when it comes to Guts:
And this is the scene that leads to the highest point in their relationship, when Griffith admits he had no logical reason to save Guts and Guts dedicates his sword to him in turn. Plus Casca’s outrage also serves to highlight touch as a feature of the closeness of their relationship – and that relationship’s potential to destroy Griffith(’s dream):
And of course, at the climactic moment of the arc as a whole, we get this moment:
Griffith reaches down to pull Guts up to him at the beginning of the first scene we see between them (a contrast to Guts looking up at a distant Femto at the top of the stairs):
We get a nice close up of their handclasp the first time Griffith saves Guts’ life (again, pulling Guts up):
A full page the very last time Griffith saves Guts’ life:
And we get another panel of their hands when Guts lets him go and falls away from him:
Which brings me to the way there is also a particular emphasis given to the lack of
touch between them, compounding the impression that the physicality
between them is significant.
For instance, in contrast to their first fight where they lost their swords, swords – which each represent their respective dreams here – uh… come between them in chapter one, foreshadowing how dreams tear them apart and also highlighting Guts’ more immediate concern that Griffith is growing distant as he gets promoted and draws closer to attaining his dream:
(also i love having an excuse to post those 2 subsequent panels)
Eyes meeting across a vast ballroom and through a window as they smile at each other, after another reminder that Guts is planning to leave very soon:
Guts’ sword falling where we later see Griffith with self-inflicted scratch-marks:
I obviously can’t skip over Griffith thinking about Guts’ departure at the exact moment he
penetrates Charlotte, followed by Charlotte reflected in his frantic
eyes, emphasizing Guts’ absence here in contrast to Charlotte’s presence. All on the same page in 4 subsequent panels. While he’s fucking Charlotte.
Like, this is by far the gayest hetero sex scene I’ve ever seen.
Guts reaching for him fruitlessly here:
Frankly, and not fun but still unfortunately significant to the story, Femto raping Casca while staring at Guts, later compounded by the Beast of
Darkness telling Guts to do the same to get closer to him.
There’s also Femto’s use of telekinesis rather than physical force to keep Guts away from him in the Black Swordsman arc, and the aforementioned staircase of inequality between them.
And of course NeoGriffith’s distance. Both literally:
And symbolically:
Physical touch emphasizes their closeness. It punctuates the strong emotions between them. It pulls Guts up and brings Griffith down until they meet together in the middle, illustrating the fact that their emotions for each other make them equals despite their predetermined + false notions of what equality is.
Again:
It’s highlighted during the moments of their relationship that signify their emotional closeness:
It’s a contrast to the distance which signifies their relationship falling apart:
For instance, Guts holding Griffith throughout like half of the post-torture content shows us that he doesn’t want to leave again long before the story tells us that directly.
Griffith asking for his armour rather than taking off his mask, placing a physical barrier between them, shows us that he wants to keep some emotional distance from Guts, because their closeness is devastating to him. And that foreshadows his choice to sacrifice Guts to escape his vulnerability. His demon form incorporates his mask and, so far, they never touch again.
Basically physical touch is one of the tools Miura uses to illustrate their intense relationship, either through its presence or its pointed, painful absence, and I just wanted to take a moment to illustrate some of that, bc I dig it.
yeah absolutely. ignoring every ounce of subtext, the only characters who demonstrate textual same sex attraction are child predators and groups of heretics having hedonistic and like fuckin baby eating orgies before dying horribly.
As for the subtext, I like to interpret it in as positive a way as possible (ie Guts and Griffith’s relationship and lives are totally fucked up because they fail to recognize and act on the attraction between them, largely because of their past traumas), but as much as I think it fits the story perfectly and is the neatest and most resonant reading of Guts and Griffith’s relationship, it’s still only subtext, and possibly accidental, so that doesn’t really mitigate any of the actual homophobia inherent to the story.
And then ofc you have the evil gay subtext, yk like Femto staring at Guts during the Eclipse rape and the Beast of Darkness talking about Guts’ longing for Griffith and Guts assaulting Casca to feel closer to him. Hard to defend that lmao. I mean I can still read it as inoffensively as possible (the negative part comes when they redirect their feelings from each other to a heterosexual outlet, eg) but yk, that’s just me wanting to enjoy the story, that’s not a nuance I’m gonna give Miura credit for.
And also because this is all subtext it’s very nebulous and v open to interpretation.
Like for instance, another less forgiving interpretation of the subtext might be that Miura intended for Griffith and Guts’ relationship to be positive inasmuch as it is platonic, and for the implications of sexual attraction to be something negative that should have been overcome. I feel like that’s a much less valid interpretation, because it’s pretty contradictory overall, but yk there are still some pretty fucked up implications you can pick up in the subtext, and the context of all textual same-sex attraction being evil doesn’t exactly help that.
Oh also I suppose one can argue that in Berserk every expression of sexual desire is negative whether it’s hetero or not, give or take the second half of the gtsca sex scene (and i can still argue it’s negative), and therefore the fact that all textual same-sex desire is evil is more neutral in berserk than it would be in other stories. but we live in a world where predatory heterosexual desire isn’t a damaging stereotype in and of itself but predatory same-sex desire is, so it’s not actually neutral regardless, bc of real world context.
Tho that fact does make Berserk more fun for me to read at least.
At the end of the day basically I choose to read the subtext in as
positive a way as possible and it works for me and entertains me a whole
lot, but that doesn’t make the homophobic implications go away. but enh
I’ve kind of made my peace with enjoying a very offensive work lol.
UGH i hate how entirely plausible this all is because it makes everything that’s already terrible even more tragic 😦 … and running with it being a possibility, it’d give guts a really bad association with his very thoroughly thwarted near-attempt at being purposefully affectionate towards griffith, possssibly even an acceptance of his own gayness. i know this is all just wild speculation but, jesus. ughhhhhhhhh it hurts.
oh man i kinda want to explore that now
like i always say the eclipse puts everyone’s potential character development on hold/cuts it down in its tracks, imagine if it also slammed the door shut on guts’ potential realization that he’s not straight
i mean it’s all there – the parallels to casca realizing she was in love with griffith when she stopped seeing him as a god, the realization that he fucked up because griffith was in love with him, guts taking this away from griffith’s sacrifice:
Like ending up burying a burgeoning realization about himself and his feelings fits right in here
(idt i ever posted it but i remember thinking once that guts’ post-eclipse character development would work so well if there was an element of him coming to terms with his sexuality. i think i was thinking about a hypothetical “what would change about the story of Berserk if all the subtext was intentional and going somewhere” angle lol. i bet that half baked thought is in my drafts somewhere.)
i was just about to say basically the same thing @chaoticgaygriffith did here lol … he needs that constant reminder of why he SHOULD hate griffith because he’s still so emotionally invested in him and it’s too easy for him to slide into pining and sadness over him. and guts has never seen the griffith /he/ knew do anything awful, so i imagine he has a really hard time accepting that femto=griffith, but lbr so do i, griffith was not cruel and miura is an asshole
yeah i mean considering neogriffith’s effect on him:
I feel like it’s pretty heavily suggested that part of why Guts is able to drop the revenge quest to take Casca to Elfhelm is because NeoGriffith showing up all hot and non demonic threw a bucket of cold water onto his rage boner and replaced it with a regular boner.
Like I will never, ever, ever get over how fucking sad Guts is about NeoGriffith ditching him lmfao, idk how anyone can look at that panel and think Guts feels nothing but hate for him now.
And yeah like Guts also separates human Griffith from Femto in his mind, like when he tells Rickert “that’s not the Griffith you know anymore” while remembering Femto. Which is another reason NGriff’s human appearance fucks him up, because it makes it harder for Guts to separate NGriff from human Griff.
@xiyyh said:
all of this! i agree.
guts saying/doing ANYTHING at this moment could’ve pushed him over the
edge imo. also just, ugh, griffith conversely loving and hating him
because of his dependence on guts for stability. not only stability tho
he’s fucking in love with him lol. so yeah griffith coming to terms with
his absolute need for guts (whether he likes it or not, & he does
not) during the same moment of guts realizing how bad he fucked up,
re-igniting griffith’s value in his own mind, hhhhhhh
and these parallels! my god. somehow berserk is constantly mirroring itself, it’s endlessly fascinating and infuriating
ALSO WRT your tags; lol i agree and i
don’t understand how anyone could read it any other way if i’m being
completely fucking honest
ty! it’s so good isn’t it, like the fact that griffith’s moment of pure despair was guts touching him is beyond amazing and so fun to think about. i just want to second what you said here.
I do not, but this is a good question and one I’m also curious about. I can say that the anime replaced it with “love” (whether the word itself changed or the translation, idk) so it wouldn’t surprise me if it sounds just as suggestive in japanese as in english, or more so.
@chaoticgaygriffith no pressure to answer this, but do you have any insight on the word? (i’m sure you know exactly the page we’re talking about but just in case, chapter 49)
And actually while I’m wondering about this I’ve always been curious, is it the same word Ganeshka uses on this page? (chapter 282)
the word used is 飢餓感 (きがかん／kigakan) which can mean either hunger literally or hunger as in a strong desire/wish for something
and seeing as how griffith was listing emotions here, moreso than physical sensations (although some emotions–like pain, or you could say even all of them ig–are at the same time physical sensations), i would argue that he meant the latter
though it’s probably unclear on purpose, or it’s like clever wordplay of sorts since he’s literally in pain and starved and also additionally emotionally in pain and starved
and no sadly it’s not the same word ganishka used (he used 飢え渇く／うえかわく／uekawaku) but i don’t think that means there’s no parallel to be drawn here
tyvm for the response! sounds like it basically has the same connotation of saying you feel hunger while thinking about someone in english.
i def don’t think he meant literal hunger since he’s listing feelings specifically for guts, but i like the idea that it could be deliberate wordplay (along with pain) to yk compare the torture to being without guts/his feelings for guts. which would be very fitting imo.
i’ve always thought it looked like guts wanted to kiss him here too lmao … and like … ha i know it’s completely impossible but look at griffs face tho. he’s like “NOW?? now guts? really?” then the behelit opens cause griffs just “OH /NOW/ YOU’RE GAY?”
hmm lol it’s likely total crap but it’s quite an interesting thing to ponder. cause imo miura is/was preettttyyy clear in his portrayal of expressional intent�� i don’t want to allow myself to believe this but to me it rly looks like that lmao
this is hot on the heels of guts fully
accepting his role in griffith’s (insert everything here) … i can only
imagine what would’ve happened if guts had an opportunity to say
something to him. he is probably at a loss for words, and all that
emotional buildup is trying to escape through his eyes lol .. god, griff
has no idea why guts is so emotional right here now that i think of it
🤔🤔🤔 guts showing emotions for him during this breakdown is a very
plausible thing to push him over the edge 😮
i like it lol i think i’ll keep it
good content
ok for real the way i see griffith’s moment of despair being guts’ touch is that it’s griffith’s final moment of understanding that he is never gonna get unfucked by his feelings. he desperately, desperately needs guts and there’s no possibility of living without him anymore. if guts left, griffith would mentally waste away like in his nightmare, if guts stayed griffith would exist entirely for his presence.
so like the way griffith shifted from wanting to strangle guts to holding his hand in the torture chamber when guts started crying for him, when guts touches him with that emotion on his face griffith is like, fuck i can’t hate him, i can’t separate myself, and the behelit opens.
i mean more powerfully than i’ve written lol, but that’s like, the gist imo.
so basically i completely agree.
ALSO wrt the possibility of Guts wanting to kiss him, I’m just gonna say:
idk Guts what did you do last time someone attempted suicide in front of you?
I feel like this should probably be a harder question to answer because there are so many amazing scenes, but honestly it’s easy: Griffith’s torture chamber monologue.
It’s the absolute heart of Berserk and it’s everything I could possibly ask for in a ship.
Griffith starting off with the pages on his dream. The brightest thing he’d ever seen. Then darkness. And every single time I turn the page from this
to this
it takes my breath away lmao.
It’s a monologue about how Guts holds Griffith’s heart in his hand.
And like look at this shit!
The sole sustenance keeping him alive oh my god. Why just him? Why indeed.
And the monologue that begins with showing us the dream Griffith dedicated his entire life to pursuing ends with this:
I just fucking can’t handle it. This is seven pages of absolute perfection, and these seven pages are what Berserk’s about, both literally and thematically, and that’s why I’m stuck in this fandom no matter how many other aspects of the canon disappoint me lol.
Like, a few of my favourite ship tropes are: love/hate, someone ruining their own life because of love, power dynamic reversal due to desperately intense emotions, someone forced to choose between love and the thing they value most in life, betrayal and obsession/desperate need, two people who are singular to each other, etc and this scene hits every branch on the way down.
how bout you, if you have a favourite scene you want to talk about?
I just wanna say, there are 2 possible reasons Guts wants to keep feeling the pain Griffith caused him.
1. Because he wants to want to kill him, and it’s a reminder of why he wanted revenge in the first place. His rage needs fuel.
2. Because Griffith (Femto) deliberately wanted to hurt him. yk as opposed to NeoGriffith saying he doesn’t give a fuck and leaving him moping in the snow. He’d rather be looked at with hatred than not seen at all.
and imo it’s both.
i am so sleepy + i have no idea what i’m really going for here but like
i think trees and branches are like, symbols of connection or reaching for connection or smthn like that. or like, at least when they’re white
“since when was it that despite her bent shape lady farnese came to have feelings for me beyond those of a mistress for her servant?“
ok those branches aren’t white but i just like the similar phrasing lol
like i just glanced at a couple pages of serpico’s backstory and was like, woah that’s a lot of branch imagery lol. and there’s obviously the whole creation of the world tree, ganeshka’s loneliness breakdown, etc.
i am putting a pin in this for if i think of more significant seeming tree imagery. or yk pending how the whole fantasia arc goes. world tree fast travel system branches, casca having a breakdown beside danann’s cherry tree, yadda yadda yadda.
i mean it just seems to fit this whole idea i got where like half the fantasy content of berserk works as a metaphor for interpersonal relationships and all that jazz.
I think that’s a reasonable way of reading their relationship.
The Beast of Darkness is definitely pretty overt about suggesting that Griffith is Guts’ first choice, calling him his “true light” while Casca gets grouped in with the RPG group as “warm lights,” as well as suggesting that Griffith is more “precious” to him than Casca.
And ofc I definitely agree that Griffith is Guts’ number one choice. Casca I’m less sure about, I think she was more torn between them and maybe ended up prioritizing Guts by the end, when she told him to leave to pursue his dream. But that’s p ambiguous.
My own opinion on Guts and Casca’s feelings for each other is that they’re… complicated lol, but imo genuine romantic love doesn’t really enter into it. I don’t enjoy their relationship so I’m biased ofc, but I do think Miura was like, conscientious about portraying their relationship as a more low-key realistic hookup between friends, rather than burgeoning true love, and motivated by a number of complex feelings and factors other than straightforward romance.
Like both rebounding from Griffith, “licking wounds” and comforting each other after experiencing some extreme self-destructive feelings, genuinely liking each other as friends by now, the fact that Guts saved Casca and Casca feels like she owes him the same way she wanted to be Griffith’s sword after he saved her (Casca pointing out Guts’ scars from the 100 man fight when he saved her then, and asking for a wound in return), Judeau’s heavy-handed manipulations pushing them together, Guts inviting Casca along for sex while prioritizing his dream (”I don’t know whether you’ll get in the way of what I want to do or the opposite”), Guts letting Casca comfort him the way Griffith didn’t, etc.
Additionally I think that their hookup serves as a distraction for Guts, a way to continue repressing the realization that he fucked up when he left for as long as possible because accepting that he ruined everything because he was wrong about Griffith’s feelings is… not easy lol, and this is shown in how he invites her along and still intends to leave the Hawks again, rather than rethinking things based on new information and deciding to stay this time. It takes him like four days to finally accept that he shouldn’t’ve left.
And post-Eclipse I think Guts sticks with Casca in part because of what the Beast of Darkness suggests, that she’s a reminder of the pain Griffith caused, and in part because he wants to try to move on from Griffith now that NGriff has soundly rejected him, and in part because he’s longing for a piece of his happy past and that’s what Casca represents, and in part to atone for abandoning Griffith the first time, and in part because she’s his friend and comrade and he wants to help her.
So like, basically tl;dr I think they care about each other, but the romance aspect did end up being forced and I would’ve liked their relationship a lot more if they’d stayed platonic friends, and it probably would’ve been better for them too.
Also I headcanon them both as gay and repressed lol, and I think the story makes that fairly easy to do, which is nice.
i linked a few related posts under the cut if you happen to be interested
Judeau’s clear agenda in the back half of the Golden Age is hilarious to me because it’s like Miura couldn’t get Guts and Casca to fuck naturally, so he had to make it a side character’s sole mission in life to arrange their hook up.
But actually to be less cynical, I think it works very well with the overall tone and thematic takeaway from the Golden Age. Why was Judeau meddling? Well, it’s strongly suggested that it’s because he was in love with Casca himself, but didn’t consider himself worthy of her. He thought Guts would be better for her, and that Casca would be better off traveling with Guts than leading the remnants of the Hawks, so he shoved Guts at her until they boned.
And look how that turned out.
Moral of the Golden Age: tell people how you feel instead of just assuming you’re not good enough for them.
And like, something I really love about Judeau’s character is that he seems to fill that character trope of friend who gives good advice and lays out some of the story’s themes and nudges the protagonist in the right direction for the plot. But like everyone else in Berserk he’s more layered than that – he has his own reasons for saying the things he does and directing Guts the way he does, and those reasons are kind of based in low self esteem. He’s another factor that helps bring everyone to the Eclipse.
Sometimes he does give good advice, but sometimes he gives genuinely bad advice, because he’s biased.
And I think there’s a potential parallel between Judeau trying to set Guts and Casca up, and Guts trying to set Casca and Griffith up before he leaves. Guts feels unworthy of Griffith because he doesn’t have a dream, but Casca does, so he shoves her at Griffith to get her to take his place as his sword, but yk with added romance because heteronormativity.
It’s not unbiased-dude-trying-to-be-a-good-bro-for-his-friends advice, Judeau’s own issues are a factor in him trying to get Guts and Casca together.
Judeau feels unworthy of Casca because idk he’s insecure about being a jack of all trades, master of none lol, so he considers Guts, who is the best at least next to Griffith, more worthy of Casca and tries to get them together.
And in his dying moments, he knows he fucked up. That he should’ve just said something.
And yk what, he may think Guts is more worthy of Casca because he’s the best at something, but Guts was up on top of a giant hand trying to save Griffith long after that stopped making sense as a course of action while Judeau was down here trying to survive with Casca, and I think we all know who Casca appreciated more in this moment.
There’s something to be said for just being there with someone instead of leaving them in the snow/trying to convince a dude to sling her over his shoulder and run lol. Same with how Judeau was with Casca throughout the year of hiding and trying to survive while Guts was fucking off on his eat pray love vacation.
It wouldn’t surprise me if we’re meant to see Judeau/Casca as a tragic missed connection and the better alternative to Guts and Casca getting together.
(On a personal note I don’t actually like the idea of Judeau/Casca both bc it’s het lol but also since it’s just, yk, dude pines, wants the girl but meddles in her life for her own good, Casca’s feelings towards Judeau aren’t explored at all, etc. But the way Miura portrayed Judeau’s regret and his presence vs Guts’ absence makes me think that the takeaway is that in the best version of events Judeau would’ve told Casca how he felt and they would’ve got together. And thematically that fits imo.)
Also while I’m on this topic, I want to take yet another opportunity to point this great moment out:
hmmmmmmmmmmm
Judeau then immediately segues the conversation to the whole “Casca’s life sucks right now, you need to save her from it, etc” bit.
But I fucking love this moment specifically because it’s telling us that not only is Judeau overtly meddling to get Casca and Guts to hook up, but Judeau believes that Guts knowing how Griffith really feels about him will impede his plans.
And I mean it’s true, he wants Guts to leave with Casca and when Guts realizes how hard he fucked up and how much Griffith desperately needs him and always did he wants to stay. But it’s just such a nice touch to tell us that Guts and Casca… only work in the absence of Griffith. Guts gets with Casca when he falsely believes Griffith looks down on him. Guts chooses to stay with Griffith when he’s convinced he was wrong about that.
(And post-Eclipse, Guts abandons Casca for his revenge campaign, and chooses to stay with her when NeoGriffith says unequivocally that he’s over him now lol.)
It adds to the sense that Guts and Casca are both rebounding from Griffith, and they only work together as long as they both want to distance themselves from him. When he’s back in their life they get weird and jealous immediately, and then they both independently choose not to leave the Hawks together (Guts telling Judeau he wants to stay, followed by Casca telling Guts she can’t leave with him) and Casca tries to break up with him lol.
[insert more picspam here, we all know Guts is fixated]
let’s be real, it’s the hair.
Griffith’s favourite physical quality of Guts’:
I was gonna say something like his buff arms, or his strength in general, and I think that would also be a legit answer, but yk what I’m going with
I think I just wanna say Guts’ face in general. Like maybe this is just Miura failing to properly objectify his point of view manly man protagonist, but when he’s making Griffith’s heart flutter his heavy brows and intense focused stare tend to be pretty prominent.
Also I’d argue that Miura kind of emphasizes Guts’ rugged handsomeness this way during/after the rescue mission, when the love triangle’s rearranging itself to put Guts in the centre:
moreso than at any other point in the story. So yeah.
Guts’ favourite non-physical quality of Griffith’s:
Ok this one’s tricky because I want to say Griffith’s like, larger than lifeness. His respectability, leadership abilities, ambition, that whole package, because that’s what makes his attention that much more valuable to Guts. He doesn’t want just anyone’s attention, he wants Griffith’s attention, because Griffith is the coolest guy he knows lol.
But! Like the entire point of the Golden Age is Guts learning that he’s been prioritizing the wrong aspects of Griffith. And obviously I don’t think Guts only liked Griffith because of his image lol, just that Guts really valued that image because like… he wants to be admired by someone admirable.
But I’m also going to say Griffith’s playfulness, because there’s something there that grabbed Guts early on, not just something he admired but something he genuinely liked, and I always come back to the waterfight. Guts has never had a friend his own age before, and he’s never had a chance to be a kid in his life. The waterfight is I can only assume the first time Guts fought just for fun.
And despite all the smokescreens of status and admirability and godliness etc, at the end of the day they just genuinely like each other, they like hanging out and having fun together.
Maybe you can say it’s both in combination – the fact that he’s larger than life, but has this more human, real side of him that is reachable and that he can genuinely connect with. It’s what makes Griffith’s “superiority” something he loves and wants to live up to, rather than something he resents.
Idk.
Griffith’s favourite non-physical quality of Guts’:
His determination. Whether it’s used against him, like during their first duel (or post Eclipse), or to fight for him, or to protect him, I think Guts’ willingness to do anything in a fight makes him swoon. One reason he refuses to try to reign him in despite Casca complaining that Guts gets away with everything lol. And one reason his heart started beating while he watched him fight Zodd.
What do you think? I kind of just stuck really close to things basically stated in canon but I think there are better, and probably shippier/more fun answers lol. If you have alternative suggestions I want to hear them.
tbh yeah it does seem like such an over the top reaction, especially since in griffith’s nightmare of the future he’s pretty again so whatever happened to his face is probably not permanently disfiguring to a huge extent (yeah it was a dream sequence but it was deliberately meant to be a realistic one). but imo there’s also a legit answer.
Guts’ kind of extreme, omg this can’t be griffith, omfg, reaction is less “oh no he’s ugly now” and more “wow i’m being confronted by the extremely painful, horrific, and undeniable fact that griffith is actually not a god, he’s human and vulnerable and broken and it’s my fault.”
it’s putting an image to Casca’s words:
Guts being hit over the head with the fact that this image:
is bullshit.
And I love that it happens when Guts takes off the mask, not before when he’s checking out his cut tendons and cut out tongue, because the mask is such a strong consistent symbol for the image Griffith hides behind.
tbh it doesn’t really matter what Griffith’s face looks like, it’s the fact that Guts takes off the mask and sees the real, human Griffith, and it hits him how false his idea of him, the idea he based his decision to leave around, was.
And it’s a nice set up for this moment later:
Guts is symbolically accepting the real Griffith here, but Griffith isn’t able to drop the image and be vulnerable yet. Another tragic missed connection.
(And yeah like @chaoticgaygriffith has said, from a character perspective Guts is still dancing around reality here, and it’s not til another few chapters that he really fully acknowledges how immensely he fucked up (”why do I always see these things… after they’re done and gone?”) but yk. it’s a baby steps attempt lol. the tragedy is that they both suck at this.)
Also an additional detail because I love it
Guts’ eventual acceptance of Griffith’s humanity mirrors Casca’s realization that her feelings for Griffith weren’t just distant awe and respect, but actually romantic, I’m just saying.
I love getting questions! And I haven’t really discussed this as far as I remember.
But I think that moment makes a lot of sense tbh.
Griffith’s feelings towards Guts in his torture chamber monologue are incredibly intense, but not exactly positive. He’s all-consumingly in love with him, but he doesn’t want to be. Being in love with him is what lost him his dream and got him tortured for a year, which is a hell of an experience to resent someone for.
And the way his immediate response to Guts suddenly showing up is to try to strangle him seems like a very solid prelude to the sacrifice imo. Being in love is not fun for Griffith, it ruined his entire life, made him incredibly vulnerable, and made him emotionally dependant on a man who may very well leave him again and whose feelings Griffith has no reason to believe match his own.
If killing Guts can take the edge off those feelings and maybe return him back to factory settings when his dream was the most important thing and life made sense, in the irrational frame of mind he’s in after a year of torture, that would definitely seem like a good plan.
Add a side of plain old lashing out because he’s blaming Guts for the fact that he’s in that torture chamber, and I think it works very well that Griffith’s first act here is attempted strangulation.
What’s really incredible to me is that all it takes is Guts starting to cry and Griffith just welcomes him back, life destroying feelings and all. Like being in love is one thing, accepting that love and deciding to try to roll with it right after those feelings made him want to kill Guts is… wild.
This
to this
in a page.
So there’s also something to be said for extreme emotional instability after a year of torture, and a lifetime of repressing his feelings. He has no practice dealing with his feelings constructively, so when he can’t repress them he does some extreme, stupid things (like the duel, like the night with Charlotte, like self-harm, like reaching up to strangle Guts.)
OH AND ALSO it’s worth noting that Griffith is very aware that his hands don’t work anymore. He has no physical ability to kill Guts, and while in a moment of irrational overwhelming feeling he might try, I wouldn’t count this as a genuine murder attempt because somewhere in the back of his mind he knows he can’t actually strangle him. Like if, say, he had physical strength and access to a knife, I don’t think this moment would translate into suddenly slitting his throat without warning. Maybe more like holding the knife to his throat threateningly before dropping it and collapsing into his arms lol.
So tl;dr imo in this moment he’s spent a year hating Guts because he loves him and that ruined his life, so he’s lashing out and potentially trying to/wishing to cut those feelings off at the source the same way he does soon after during the Eclipse. But he just loves Guts so much he ends up holding his hand instead.
God I love this ship.
Anyway ty for sending this and your kind words, I hope you also have an awesome day!
i’ve said this before but still like, literally both g/c sex scenes began with the dude saying “hey here’s a great way to stop thinking about painful, painful reality” right after being devastated by their belief that they destroyed their relationship with the other dude, like they both seek out sexual connections in the face of losing their relationship with each other!
Like I don’t think anyone would deny that this is clearly what Griffith is doing.
But Guts does it too:
“The dead or broken” refers back to Casca’s “the almost broken dream of someone who might not even be alive” incidentally, so you don’t even need to make your own connections here, they’re delivered in a neat little bow. It’s about Griffith being in a dungeon right now because of Guts.
There’s a big empty space very clearly defined where Guts and Griffith should’ve fucked each other, and because they didn’t the Eclipse happened.
That’s the thesis statement of Berserk as far as I’m concerned.
look at guts trying his damnest to be casual with griffith and make him feel even a little bit better about his situation (and also to distract himself from his guilt)
i’m honestly willing to think this wasn’t just a stupid, slightly insensitive naive moment from him but, in fact, an actual pathetic attempt at re-establishing their intimacy which he fucked up by leaving
he doesn’t look hurt when griffith kinda sorta refuses (i.e. changes the subject) but he’s still in the trying to act casual/make him feel better/distract himself mode
# i feel like griffith asking for his armour instead of taking off the mask kinda marks a switch for guts from the attempt at intimacy # and beginnings of real acceptance of griffith’s like… vulnerable humanity and the fact that he isn’t a god # to kinda following griffith’s lead and piling on more denial lol # like guts is a dumbass but he almost got it right here
ia i just think the elephant in the room is too big for guts to try to be this casual to start off? like it’s so transparent? and i get that what went down isn’t something he can just dive into without prepping either of them, especially considering the consequences it had for griffith and the guilt he feels over that, but like the way he handled it (following griffith’s lead like you said and all that) they didn’t get to talk about it* at all, which is imo so much worse
*of course it would have been one-sided bc griffith can’t talk but you know, better than nothing
tbh yeah true actually, at this point Guts falling to pieces and just screaming some real genuine words like the rambling guilt ridden monologue that’s been occasionally running through his head for a few days would probably be a step in the right direction more so than more dancing around everything
yk I think the number one reason Griffith had to lose his tongue, narratively, like you were talking about the other day, is because in the lake when Guts was running towards him if he could talk he would’ve finally broken and said everything. like I think to that point he would’ve kept repressing and not actually started the relevant conversation, but there is a breaking point when it would’ve come out then
but Guts, who could talk, never reached that breaking point
On the more headcanony side I think that like, Guts would be possessive but he wouldn’t really think of it as possessiveness – it’d feel like a natural extention of their v exclusive, v intense relationship. Griffith would be possessive in turn ofc.
And it wouldn’t manifest in like, being jealous of Charlotte if Griffith still plans to marry her for power. I figure they’d talk about that and Guts would understand it’s business lol, he wouldn’t be threatened by Charlotte. But at the same time he would demand Griffith’s attention and time. Maybe not literally demand lol, but he’s really emotionally needy lbr and I think he’d get sulky if he didn’t get enough time with Griffith bc he’s busy being a king or w/e. We see that in canon even, when he tries to visit him after Zodd but can’t bc of the nobles.
But then like in canon Griffith would reassure him and go out of his way to give him that time and attention because well, he’s also needy and they’re both obsessed with each other and neither wants to spend time apart.
So things like Griffith putting off some king stuff to laze around in bed with Guts would be perfect for Guts. Or things like having sex on the throne at three am when the room’s empty lol, or leaving tea with Charlotte early because the Raider Captain has something important to “discuss” with him. Guts would want to make his claim on Griffith, and have Griffith show that he’s the most important.
But again like, he wouldn’t express that, and Griffith (unless something drastic has gone down) wouldn’t admit to himself that Guts is the most important aspect of his life. But it would still show through in little moments and Guts would notice them (yk assuming no Promrose Hall speech colouring his perception etc etc).
Sexually you got leaving marks under clothes, fucking him hard enough that he still feels it the next day, teasing and drawing it out as a way of focusing Griffith’s attention wholly on him. Like, considering how needy they both are when it comes to wanting the others’ attention and regard and desire, sex could get ridiculously intense lol. We’ve talked about this before a bit but yk it holds true. They just both want to be wanted by the other so badly lol.
On the more meta-y side, I’d argue that their relationship comes with a side of possessiveness from both – again, as a kind of natural byproduct of the singular intensity of it. They are each others’ only one, and they both want to be each others’ only one. I don’t think there’s a lot of like, canon elements that demonstrate Guts being possessive to the same explicit extent of eg Griffith’s “if I can’t have him, I don’t care,” but imo it’s there under the surface.
Guts wants to make Griffith look at him. At first that’s the whole quest for a dream thing, but after the Eclipse it’s his revenge quest. He wants to kill him because, more than anything else, he wants acknowledgement that he matters to him.
This hold on Griffith is exactly what Guts wanted, and still wants.
It doesn’t manifest as jealousy, like we see him trying to set Griffith and Casca up for a while, but it’s more like, yk, that need for attention. He’s possessive of Griffith’s priorities. The reason I think he’s ok with setting Griffith and Casca up is because lover isn’t a category he can see himself fitting into, and moreover, true friend and equal trumps lover anyway as far as he’s concerned. His competition is Griffith’s dream, not Griffith’s other relationships.
I mean you can split hairs on the definition of possessiveness and whether Guts’ feelings count if it’s less jealousy and more wanting to be the most important person to Griffith, but yk I think it’s an element.
you're the only one 