madchen
replied to your post “guts and griffith’s hetero relationships during the golden age are…”

i need to write or say something more about how casca is always the symbol/connection between guts and griffith (bc she is a woman etc) bc i feel like its generally ignored and dismissed for bad men do bad things or whatever.

lmao one time i wrote 5k words on this topic and i still feel like it only scratched the surface, like it seriously feels like every single moment of casca’s screen time that involves romantic feelings is suggestive of this. and you should def write something about it if u feel inspired because I want to know other ppl’s opinions, it really is one of those things that isn’t really talked about much. maybe because it gets so fucked up and it’s so unfair to casca and lbr it’s a fairly depressing and dark subject.

plus yk it kinda kills the central het ship

madchen
replied to your post “though actually while i’m on this subject, I do kind of have a big…”

i think berserk is walking that “revenge will destroy you” route and im not against a kind of emotional catharsis here but that would ideally be between guts and griffith and like that kind of reconciliation (given thats the angle were taking here) would leave an awful taste in my mouth bc of the eclipse rape lol.

tbh this is why i hope berserk isn’t so much going for a ‘revenge is bad and futile’ thing as it’s going for a ‘guts getting revenge in this particular case is bad and futile because it’s not his right to get revenge for the eclipse and also he wants revenge for the wrong reasons, ie bc it’s an easy outlet for his very complex feelings, but casca’s the hawk representative who never abandoned the band and also the person who suffered most so she’s the one who should get revenge.’

kind of suggested in part here at least:

image
image

and yea youre right about the
railroading thing ughhgh that really gets me (im a broken record but it
reminds me of vriska and like that shit gets me). it feels pretty hallow
when you have to acknowledge this in the context of the whole story
especially bc griffiths helplessness to the waters of fate and destiny
isnt emphasized as overtly tragic as it really is. which is a valid
storytelling choice ic it just, again, gets me.
also femto is the consequence of guts actions and its clearly framed that way idk what people get out of insisting otherwise.

yeah i feel you, griffith’s narrative is so sad to me, but a lot of what’s tragic about it isn’t in your face.

and yeah it’s like, you can say guts didn’t deserve to experience the eclipse, which is obviously true bc v few people deserve that shit, and def not for making a mistake based on low self esteem lol, but narratively it’s the consequence of his actions bc berserk is a very dark story. guts is the main character who actively made a choice which set all the tragedy dominos falling. it’s even ironically fitting – his choice to “abandon” the hawks and griffith resulted in losing everyone permanently.

like i think ppl equate saying the eclipse/femto/griffith’s breakdown/etc is a consequence of guts’ actions to saying either a) guts deserved to suffer and/or b) if this happened in real life it would be right to blame guts for everything lol, neither of which are statements that necessarily follow the first one, and are clearly untrue. but fiction operates by different rules than reality.

madchen
replied to your post “aight… hopefully ill stop bugging you after this but like in any…”

omg i love all this ive been busy tonight w work and i have to get up early so ill respond better tomorrow but the war lord/captive role play is so true and good and the added touch of it contradicting his dream is yea… it isnt dubcon rp as much as guts flaunts his power over griffith and both griffith and his warlordsona are eyelash batting hoes tbqh and i love him

lol yeah p much exactly the vibe i was thinking, like part of the appeal of the fantasy to griffith would be that fantasy!griffith is Into It.

and awesome i’m looking forward 2 more of your thoughts and hope you have a good evening and morning w/ work and whatever else 🙂

jaeger-der-nacht
replied to your photoset “@madchen said:
i literally just went
to see if i could finally see…”

I remembered this post after looking through the movie artbook just now. If y’all want to see a fully nude (almost) canon Griffith you should read the Berserk Theatre Edition Artbook. Naked Griff is on page 73.
I found the scans here
http://forum.anime-fall.com/manga-artbooks.40/thread/berserk-theatre-edition-artbook.472145/

thank you v much for the link! I encourage ppl to buy the thing if they have the means, etc, but w/e this is handy.

Here’s the page:

@madchen you wanted a clear image and it doesn’t get clearer than this

madchen
replied to your post “what are your thoughts on the reunion at the hill of swords? why do…”

i think the /only/ thing the fetus has that could be considered strong narrative coherence would be the irony of the “product” of the evil that femto did coming back to bite neogriffith in the the ass lol. but that doesnt sit well with me for a million obvious reasons + i dont get the vibe that berserk is that kind of revenge story. like you said the emotional resonance would be absent; itd fir the demise of like a comic book super villain more than anything.

completely agree, and lmao it does feel like, campy and convoluted in a comic book way

and ok i could still see miura going for it if casca’s the one who gets revenge. like fine, make the fetus his weakness against her that gives her the chance to kill him (tho i’ve said it b4 and i’ll say it again, casca swooping in to kill him while he’s crying over guts’ corpse would be way better).

idk i do think it would be cheap and a matter of prioritizing plot convenience over emotion, but i could see it happening and at least w/ casca’s story the irony is v direct. if the fetus is affecting him wrt guts tho? narratively nonsensical.

madchen
replied to your post “idk why i’m cutting this now but idk it’s an ongoing discussion that…”

wow upset about repressed gay canon griffith now
but like i just am
very sure that the idea of being restrained while guts jerks him off or
blows him or whatever turns him on hes like been Into and Fascinated
with the heady thrill of being “defeated” or dominated by guts since
their sword duel turned into a fist fight

oh man you’re so right, it’s all there in the manga. also haven’t you talked about like… not quite fighting for dominance but like pseudo roleplaying where guts has to force him into submission a while ago? bc tbh that rly fits.

like bondage is v v good but guts physically holding him down might be even better.

also shit like ignore this bc it’s totally beside the main subject, but now i’m thinking about neogriffith and beast of darkness guts. like i mean it’s hard not to apply this to the epic enemy ship versions of them, one of whom pretends he doesn’t gaf but is seriously emotionally affected no matter how much he denies it, and one of whom loses himself to base urges periodically in high emotion and then comes back to himself and has to deal with the consequences, yk?

idk why i’m cutting this now but idk it’s an ongoing discussion that mb not everyone is into so it seems polite or smthn lol. more bdsm griffguts stuff

madchen
replied to your post “more griffguts bdsm headcanon talk under the cut[[MOR] madchen
…”

like i think griffith would just flat out have mixed feelings and shame about losing control/falling into sub space or whatever and like imho i think its realistic to work there slowly bc if hed be comfortable with anyone it would be guts?

yeah and it being another thing that Only Guts gets to see is another reason it’s so good imo

also like griffith would be so gung ho about guts tying him up right away. hed be so into it you dont need to ask twice.

yk what yeah i can see this. it would be a good starting point too, i could see even canon griffith suggesting it himself. well like, some versions of canon griffith lol. i think he could range anywhere from being relatively open wrt sex to being super repressed and unable to even recognize what turns him on, but yk, the former is better for stuff like this.

madchen
replied to your post “more griffguts bdsm headcanon talk under the cut[[MOR] madchen
…”

*rubs my eyes* i want to write something but i already have like ten other things to write aaaaaa also if i ever did id want it to be a series that would. build up to less awkwardness and ease into being comfortable showing vulnerability wrt griffith… also i love modern au obviously which i always feel like is a bit of a cop out but itd take soooo much more time to work with this in canon au….

if u ever did i’d be so there

and yeah like i think modern au is great bc you can just cut out all the shit that gets in the way of everything in canon while keeping true to the core of the characters.

i guess there’s something extra satisfying about more directly canon griffguts stuff (or yk like, a canon au where only one thing is different, eg guts never overhearing griffith’s friendship speech or w/e, bc obviously in actual canon it’s all irreparably fucked) but yeah you have to spend way more time getting them anywhere and a lot of the time it’s probably not worth it.

phydia63
replied to your post “Neo Griff’s eyes look a bit more demon/animal like in some scenes, or…”

Yes, I meant the reflective pupil 😀 It really looks unnatural, which I guess is the point

yeah totally, it’s a detail i really like bc it makes ngriff look subtly otherworldly

i think @chaoticgaygriffith made a compilation of other characters who have similarly reflective eyes tho i can’t find it rn, and they’re all like magical or monstrous iirc

i think schierke gets it too sometimes when she’s doing magic

seisans
replied to your post “i keep having Thoughts about guts and fear and his relationship w/…”

i would love this bc i personally don’t understand guts as well as i do griffith

lol honestly same tho, i actually basically wrote this in the tags of that post and then deleted it bc it was getting rambly lol. but like, when it comes to griffith i’m super confident about my take but when it comes to guts it feels more like guesswork. you’d think it would be the opposite considering he’s the main character and we see inside his head way more often, but idk lol.

wingsfreedom
replied to your post “the end of the lost children arc fucks me up because i find rosine’s…”

Their mothers weren’t abusive though. In Berserk most fathers were abusive to the kids AND their wives. What often hold these poor girls from escaping is their loving mothers, even though the core problem is their dads. (Dads in general are either too nice or assholes, there’s no in betweem. But I don’t remember any nice dad in berserk)

godo is the closest we get to a good father in berserk i think lol.

but i mean yeah it’s true that the abusive fathers in the lost children arc also abuse their wives, but jill’s mother has nothing to do with why she decided to stay, she’s basically a non-entity. rosine sacrificed both her parents, but it’s not like she only regrets sacrificing her mother, she regrets sacrificing both, and no distinction is drawn between them.

their more sympathetic mothers don’t really have any effect or impact on the narrative from what i recall.

smo108

replied to your post

“This is about Falconia, bodies and lives being bought and sold, the…”

@bthump i Guess that being founded by Griffith a man who betrayed his comrades, among other things shows that Falconia is based on a lie, and tragedy will come.

this response to you basically just became an excuse to disjointedly ramble about this subject more, sorry for how unnecessarily long it is lol

tbh the main point of that post was to demonstrate how personal the stakes are, and how falconia is essentially a response to the child abuse all three of our main characters have gone through, thematically. so if it does boil down to ‘welp the dude who enabled the existence of a utopia where lives aren’t bought and sold and more people aren’t traumatized the way our faves were is an asshole so throw out the whole thing’ i will find that very unsatisfying.

i think falconia poses a lot of interesting moral questions. is it worth griffith’s mountain of corpses? is granting humanity’s dream worth also granting their nightmares? was it worth the sacrifice? and those moral questions only work if falconia is portrayed as positive, which it has been so far (and as long as those negatives happened with the intention of creating the positive, hence why most of that post turned into complaining about the eclipse rape lol.)

i think miura could also go down a route where he portrays falconia more negatively in the sense that humanity shouldn’t wish for a saviour/escape, but should instead struggle through an uncaring universe. a la the lost children arc, essentially, which seems like a potentially very strong parallel.

though again, considering how personal the stakes are – always the child abuse, come on – i would find that message… sucky, to say the least. i mean honestly the message of the lost children arc basically boiled down to ‘child abuse happens, dwi kids bc running away is bad.’ i kind of hope that miura is either still going to complicate that at some point down the line (lol pipe dream) or at the very least that he does something different with falconia than he did with rosine’s land of the elves bc dear god i couldn’t stand a repeat of that shit lol.

I mean here’s one way of looking at it:

Guts, Griffith, and Casca all have experiences with csa. Guts’ way of coping is to lash out and kill everything that scares him. Casca’s way of coping is to latch onto a saviour. Griffith’s way of coping is to change the world.

Like, of the three, Griffith’s coping mechanism wins lol, and I’m not down with an overall message that says, you shouldn’t try to change things, you should just struggle your ass through life like Guts here, and fuck everyone else. I mean tbf I don’t think Guts’ method is shown in a great light, so it’s already a bit more complex than Griffith’s dream bad Guts’ dream good, but yk, I worry lol.

Again, like, the moral question shouldn’t be “is this place where people are free to live their lives without being exploited a good thing,” it should be “is this good thing worth all the bad things that led to its existence,” and I don’t want the story to answer that question for me, I want to be presented with the evidence and decide for myself. Do the ends justify the means narratives are only interesting as questions, not answers, imo.

so idk basically my response is yeah maybe some kind of tragedy will come to demonstrate that falconia was a doomed venture from the start, and/or that wanting to create a place without exploitation is an inherently flawed or immature desire, but if that happens i will be unimpressed lol. If falconia does end up being destroyed, ideally for me there would be negative consequences to that too, because there are no easy black and whites in Berserk (or there shouldn’t be.)

and like, the whole thematic connection to child abuse could be coincidental, but facts are that falconia is explicitly a place where the strong aren’t given free rein to exploit the weak, and our central and most emotionally resonant examples of strong given free rein to exploit the weak are the nobleman who bought casca, donovan, and gennon. Plus the apt Lost Children parallel. so if miura didn’t intend this he shouldn’t’ve filled berserk so full of thematically on the nose depressing backstories lol.

robbffs
replied to your post “madchen
replied to your post “robbffs
replied to your post “It…”

Damn that some hard stuff to swallow, but i agree. In the eclipse he didnt even remember about her until the end.

lol sorry I don’t mean to rain negativity down or anything, and I don’t want to sound like I’m saying you shouldn’t enjoy their relationship. But yeah for me these are some of the reasons I personally don’t see them as all that romantic or particularly good for each other – and yeah the way he didn’t think of her at all during most of the eclipse was pretty telling as well.

madchen
replied to your post “@a-girl-named-chester I’m not reblogging that post to talk about it…”

oh my god mood… the people who actually say that were misogynist for not liking her being put in a dress are on a whole other level of galaxy brain

but have you considered… that it is you who are misogynist for denying this made up fictional construct’s right to freely choose to wear a dress (that someone else magicked her into as she protested)

madchen
replied to your post “madchen
replied to your post “what do u think is canon guts deep…”

guts gets so deep sometimes and i love it bc its usually only in reference to griffith and it exposes how thoughtful he really is…. in some of their conversations guts does most of the talking and griffith just listens enraptured bc he loves guts sm
bonus if guts eventually reaches out while talking to tuck a loose strand of hair behind griffs ear… dare i say uh gay?

it’s so true. guts is actually really self-reflective for like… a manly dude protag imo lol, he contemplates his emotions a lot, and pretty much always wrt griffith. like that monologue to judeau and corkus about how dazzling he is? guts having second thoughts after leaving griffith and wondering if he’s leaving something irreplacable behind? guts dedicating his sword to him on that rooftop? 15 yr old guts thinking about how ridic it is for griffith to try getting his own kingdom but deciding that ‘for now…’? guts having an existential crisis during the 100 man fight? the campfire of dreams convo? etc etc etc.

i’m trying to think of examples where he’s sitting around sorting thru his feelings and griffith isn’t involved. and my memory for moments that don’t relate to griffith is admittedly bad, but i can hardly think of anything. maybe some of his cynical religious commentary during the conviction arc. he’s got a few about casca, eg montage monologue about how hard it’s been to travel with her, thinking about how “this shell of who you used to be” reminds him of the good old days, thinking it’s better for farnese to “save” her because guts would only hurt her… but griffith tends to pop up in most of his contemplative moments, including the casca related ones.

also yes. guts gently tucking a strand of hair behind griffith’s ear = high tier content. actually can i just take a sec and be like

image

this could’ve happened if the king hadn’t interrupted their moment. they got the romantic breeze blowing and everything.

madchen
replied to your post “what do u think is canon guts deep repressed gay fantasy for romantic…”

no these are really good!!! i think itd take forced/necessary contact and intimacy for guts to realize his feelings ™ and yes hard agree to wanting to feel protected and reciprocate that feeling.
i like to think once he realizes this in
a better situation hed want to be alone with griffith more and like.
insist griffith come walk with him away from everyone else or something
and is really gruff about why when griffith asks and all bc hes too shy
to admit that he just wanted to spend time alone with him… fucked up.
they sit at the edge of a lake and hold hands and griff puts his head on
guts shoulder.

ty! and yess this is so good and sweet.

tbh in any kind of Guts didn’t hear the Promrose Hall speech AU I could see this.

also this kind of makes me wonder how much time they do spend alone together in those 3 years, bc i could see it being a lot tbh. they’re always going off on their own during important moments – from the first duel where griffith took him out to a scenic hill and made sure no one would interfere, to the waterfight, guts trying to visit griffith while he’s recovering, the staircase zodd convo, that flashback we see during the black swordsman arc where griffith says guts is the first person he’s ever spoken to like this, tombstone of flame’s vulnerable conversation, guts ‘it’s just the two of us’ in the wagon when he tries to get griffith to take off the mask… they just seem really comfortable being alone together.

and i could just see them sitting somewhere like, watching a sunset, hands held, head on shoulder, or having a philosophical yet romantic conversation while watching the stars, or w/e

griff-guts
replied to your post “madchen
replied to your post “madchen
replied to your post …”

guts choice to leave to prove himself worthy of griffith (thru adventures and physical feats in battle) is classic high medieval knight errant stuff. all he needs to do is slay a dragon and present its head to griffith in offering and then he’s got chivalric courting down pat

this is so good to know

and it’s now canon that he’d present griffith with zodd’s head