Tag: convo

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these two pages are the most strongly visually conveyed theory -> rebuttal i’ve ever seen

like i’m sorry i can worry all i want over ominous fetus-y portents and casca’s narrative, and i am, but i just can’t believe the same guy who wrote this scene is going to skimp on the emotional resolution to guts and griffith’s relationship

he went to see guts to test if anything would shake his heart! and then failed that test! while watching a fight extremely reminiscent of his very first sight of guts! this is just so good

#literally like i hope the man who wrote this iconic scene is still with us   

i mean ngl i’m gonna be maintaining this hope until the epilogue of
this story no matter what shit miura pulls because i’m just that
invested in these stupid characters

i’m gonna be like those sherlock fans convinced the season 4 finale was a secret hidden message and there’s a real ending just waiting to be released

I mean, no pressure to answer this but what would be your predicted possible Worst Case ending(/griffguts emotional conclusion) and your Best Case one that you could actually see happening in canon either way?

kissing-monsters:

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WORST CASE ENDING

all plot, no substance. any heart bthumpy emotions NeoGriff is feeling are actually the fetus’ feelings. it’s his weakness™ and if Guts and Casca defeat NeoGriff they’ll be able to magically separate it out and fuse it with its soul, the Moonlight Boy, achieving a Happily Ever After™ as a Picturesque Family™

Or possibly if they defeat NeoGriffith they free their child’s soul to go to swirly soul heaven, and the ending is bittersweet™

Miura retcons Femto letting Guts go, and all the hints that NeoGriffith feels things that are entirely unrelated to whatever tf the fetus might care about are red herrings/misdirection.

In a flash forward we find out that Rickert and Erika are happily married in a terrible Guts/Casca parallel.

ummm what else… NeoGriff is defeated through a power-up/Elfland magic after a volume long physical battle.

Guts bones Casca and thus conquers his obsession with Griffith and is finally able to move on™ but NeoGriff attacks Elfhelm, forcing the final battle.

possibly the other godhand are there too, what with fusing the physical and spiritual worlds and miura hinting that void’s gonna be important yadda yadda yadda. it turns into Good Spirit Elemental Guardians against Evil Godhand in the most boring fight ever while Guts and NeoGriff fight.

Oooh Casca experiences some strong negative emotions upon regaining her sanity, but the Moonlight Boy appears to her and her maternal feelings™ soothe her.

Guts kills NGriff, rides off into the sunset with casca.

oh also there’s undertones of falconia being a naive fantasy while guts’ ‘just struggle your way through everything instead of finding/creating a safe happy paradise’ philosophy is touted as more mature and better

ok that’s enough dwelling on the negative

BEST CASE ENDING

the fetus is affecting Griffith only insomuch as being fused with its physical flesh makes his heart start beating because he’s corporeal and thus subject to those worldy emotions he’d thought he’d left behind.

The shot of it at the end of this chapter shows that Casca is kind of obsessed with it, and therefore when she wakes up with all her sanity and memories she demonstrates that her wishes were not Guts’ wishes and falls into despair and sacrifices that little fucker. I mean, half the apostle sacrifices we’ve seen have been parent/child, it’s possible right?

this destroys Moonlight Boy, aka the essence of the fetus, and whatever hope the audience had for a happily ever after family with Guts Casca and child. it’s meant to be seen as a tragic low point. I cackle gleefully.

I wouldn’t actually enjoy this but i think it would make sense: along with that low point Miura hints that NeoGriff’s feelings are gone thanks to Casca’s sacrifice – oh no, his one weakness! now he’s unstoppable! etc – but psych later on it turns out the feelings were his own all along.

casca, now an apostle, leaves to get revenge on neogriff. guts goes after her to either help or stop her, he’s not sure which. also if casca steals guts’ armour, i will die of happiness, but that + being an apostle might be overkill.

we get casca’s point of view, and it’s quite similar to black swordsman guts and full of parallels. guts has now achieved some character development which is why he’s torn between helping casca get revenge vs trying to just save her because she’s no match for neogriff (vs deep down wanting to save neogriff and/or stick his own sword in him because his feelings are still all fucked up. undertones of guts and casca’s old griffith-related romantic rivalry but dark)

thematically, Elfhelm is soured – the whole magical therapy for Casca thing turned out to be a terrible idea, the people there are unwilling to help clean up their mess because they’re isolationist dicks, AND maybe there are hints that the four spirit guardians schierke calls on for protection are other forms of the godhand?

however it happens, ultimately the thematic takeaway is that rather than there being a good vs evil thing going on in the spirit world, good and evil are two sides of the same coin and what you perceive really depends on what you’re calling on the spirit world for, and most things are both at once. yk, aren’t gods and devils the same thing?

i’m skipping over plot stuff and more theme stuff because i’m willing to accept a lot of possibilities and i really don’t care much.

the important thing is that guts and griffith have a final emotional confrontation after the dust of the big action climax settles, and it comes in the form of a 3rd duel.

also at some point in the lead-up to it, they figure their shit out. possibly this involves schierke’s or sonia’s or both’s magical mind exploration magic. we see griffith’s unemotional facade starting to crack. we see guts’ ambivalence towards griffith – does he want to kill him or plead with him or fuck him or reject him entirely?

and guts realizes that griffith’s heart is beating again for him, and everything he wanted – griffith’s respect admiration and love is still there, residing in his worst enemy. and griffith realizes that guts admired and loved him and never once saw human him as the monster he saw himself and allowed himself to become.

tragically idk how you could depict both without looking really silly, but either guts’ residual guilt for his part in the lead up to the eclipse gets the better of him and he lets a still-repressed griffith kill him, the way he always lets himself get stabbed when he feels bad about something, OR neogriffith’s irrational love gets the better of him and he lets guts kill him – guts ends up sticking him in the throat in a mirror of how he killed gambino.

either way there’s a lot of crying and cradling a corpse.

tbh i’m leaning towards griffith killing guts for that devilman ending, and this way casca gets to play the role of angry god by swooping in and killing him. if that’s the case griffith lets her because his irrational emotions have finally truly burst free and taken hold over him after he kills guts. his crying is a call-back to his ‘last tear shed.’

(maybe casca becomes zodd 2.0, living for battle and becoming a sword just for herself. kind of a darkly fucked-up “happy” ending for her lol.)

BEST CASE ENDING WITH NO FUCKS GIVEN FOR PLAUSIBILITY

all of the above but after finally understanding each other they make out instead of dueling and then casca kills neogriff and an adult theresia kills guts, and they both ride off into the sunset with their respective girlfriends, farnese and jill.

A) I’m with you pretty strongly on the Do Not Want for the Happy Family parent/child relationships are the Be All End All thing, and I really hope that Miura doesn’t fall into that one (he’s pretty good with not idolising family relationships at least??? Augh).

and B)

Oooh Casca experiences some strong negative emotions upon regaining her sanity, but the Moonlight Boy appears to her and her maternal feelings™ soothe her.

I am screaming this is the darkest timeline oh my GOD do not WANT and yet THIS I can see potentially happening? That is SO grim. Like the idea of Casca’s story being even further reduced to a set of cliches about female characters kills me.

however it happens, ultimately the thematic takeaway is that rather than there being a good vs evil thing going on in the spirit world, good and evil are two sides of the same coin and what you perceive really depends on what you’re calling on the spirit world for, and most things are both at once. yk, aren’t gods and devils the same thing?

This is one of the things I love about Berserk and I hope it plays a part in the ending in some context. If it doesn’t somewhat play out in a way that emphasises this then Miura’s played himself.

neogriffith’s irrational love gets the better of him and he lets guts kill him – guts ends up sticking him in the throat in a mirror of how he killed gambino.

!!! You have killed me. This would actually make me cry if it happened.

(I mean the make-out ending is good too).

Ahhh I fully expect one or both of them to die– I’d honestly be shocked if either of them lived tbh.

It’s true every single family in Berserk, from blood relations to adopted, has been awful. The only exception I can think of is Godo and Erika. I kinda like that about Berserk, I’m not big on stories about happy families. So I do have hope that Miura might tease the concept of a Guts and Casca and baby happy family before fucking it all up and ending that prospect in weird tragedy.

Honestly though Casca being obsessed with the fetus – possibly even mentally regressed and insane not because of the rape or not just because of it but also because the fetus was corrupted and miscarried, now that I consider how Miura portrayed Shizu – just makes me lose hope that Casca’s going to get to be anything ever other than a projection screen for Miura’s fucked up thoughts on women. Like are we really going from her narrative being all about rape and her relationships to men to her narrative being all about motherhood? It’s so depressing to think about.

And lol yeah, tbh I kind of want them both to die? Idk I like a good death scene and these have the potential to be epic and extremely satisfying. Give or take the whole afterlife thing, I tend to think that actually seeing Guts and/or Griffith’s souls being carted off to whichever whirlpools they end up in would ruin it, but yk, Miura could leave that in implication.

kissing-monsters:

bthump:

kissing-monsters:

please look at guts facial expressions as he fights then thinks of griffith waugh

lmao can i just say i love that in the black swordsman arc miura was obviously thinking: well guts is pissed off about being sacrificed and stuck fighting ghosts and causing ppl’s deaths just by hanging out with them. that’s a reasonable reason to want revenge

and by the end of the golden age he was like ‘lol that’s not even close to enough to make guts hate griffith. all his friends dying horribly? nope. griffith offering him up for sacrifice and making his life an unmitigated hell? nope. better go above and beyond in the worst way possible for this one.

and guts still doesn’t hate griffith lmao. he hates femto and wants revenge but every time he thinks about human griffith he still just feels regret and sadness lol.

#lol i hope it’s ok to use your posts as springboards sometimes

I literally love it when you do that!

also the way guts acts through the entire eclipse is insane– he can’t hate griffith, at first he won’t let himself comprehend what griffith has done and when he DOES he STILL looks like this towards him. it’s just sadness and regret. there’s no hate there. 

also speaking of the worst way possible: boy did I not quite realise just HOW long the rape portion of the eclipse went for. wow. 

oh good!

and lol god ikr it’s like you could find that scene in the dictionary next to the word gratuitous

kissing-monsters:

there’s a lot in this scene and tbh it’s one of the things in the story I have trouble with– why does griffith do this? is he grasping like he was with charlotte when guts left? that’s my best interpretation, but there is A Lot here, including some pretty grim foreshadowing.

i can think of like so many possible explanations for this depending on what u want to be emphasized, it’s frustrating lol

eg

griffith seeing sex as transactional + emphasizing his vulnerability/fear of being tossed aside = trying to get casca to stay with him by offering her something he knows she wanted at one time

emphasizing griffith’s desperation and irrationality = trying to return to the status quo by returning casca’s attention to him

griffith overhearing casca saying to guts ‘i just wanted someone to be near me’ + casca reflecting on how griffith used to be able to comfort her at the start of this scene + casca clumsy and shaking + casca comforting griffith at the end = griffith trying to physically comfort casca, emphasizing his patheticness when he’s the one who needs to be comforted and held instead

or maybe it’s a combination of everything, idk. i think the eclipse foreshadowing works best as a contrast – here he’s helpless and weak and maybe offering himself in desperation or unable to even comfort or entice casca or whatever, w/e it is it’s humiliating, whereas when he becomes femto he establishes his power and control thru rape.

kissing-monsters:

bthump:

seisans
replied to your post “I read a random comment where sb said that Miura was asked once about…”

see i told yall … it’s always like this, they use gay subtext to ~deepen the story~ lol

i missed this yesterday, but yeah lol. like idt it even matters what miura’s intentions are, if the gay subtext is only there to make the story feel deeper and more intense then it’s still there to be picked up on and enjoyed.

I would add to this added to the story to deepen it, as opposed to what? that’s what all story elements of any kind are for. so what he essentially said it “yea, it gay as fuck.” tbh.

not to be disappointing lol but miura didn’t actually acknowledge the gay subtext at any point afaik, this is just speculation on why it’s there

kissing-monsters:

bthump:

I think there’s a strong argument to be made that, rather than being
depicted as burgeoning true love ruined by the Eclipse for the
sake of extra tragedy, Guts and Casca getting together is depicted as a mistake from the start.

Keep reading

I love a lot about this post but especially thanks for putting the panels of guts saying he can’t stand griffith looking down on him next to the panel of how griffith pictures guts in his own mind’s eye. aaaahhhhhhhh!

like doesn’t that just say it all?

prettykitten123:

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yesgabsstuff
replied to your post “yesgabsstuff
replied to your post “yesgabsstuff
replied to your…”

I mean, if you want my two cents on the regression, I don’t buy it? Like she would have been 100% entitled to lose her shit but I don’t think she would have I guess? I was talking to @berserkerlover221​ and I was just thinking that if that was the response women had every time a man they trusted raped them there would be a hell of a lot more completely regressed people.

like i’m no psychiatrist but i’m pretty damn sure casca’s reaction is 100% unrealistic fictional bullshit miura threw in to remove her from the narrative. you could argue that no one irl has ever been gangraped by monsters and an immortal demon god with powers of evil so maybe it’s fantasy magic at work, but then again miura also did the exact same thing when guts’ mother had a miscarriage so…

idk how one dude can write some traumatized characters so well and others so badly lol. like there is such a world of difference between guts griffith casca farnese and serpico’s reactions to their childhood traumas, and current casca’s generically ~wacky and childish insanity that it floors me that one guy wrote it all. i mean casca is a funny cartoonish background event throughout most of the last couple arcs. it’s just incredible.

All of that being
said, that seems to be something that he’s returning to thematically so
it might not be 100% sexisim and not knowing what to do with her. Maybe
just 90% 

yeah i’m hoping he plans to do something with her after she gets magical elfhelm therapy, and hopefully that something is awesome and epic and relevant enough to justify even a fraction of how she’s been reduced for 20 years. idk, cross my fingers I guess.

Idk I feel like Casca’s response to the trauma was realistic in my opinion.

I’ve spoken to my sister who has a degree in psychology as well as my cousin about it and they both agreed that a situation where a person experiences severe trauma would have very damaging results.

Ignoring the fantasy element of the manga, let’s focus on the part of her witnessing the brutal massacre of the people she loved along with being raped while it was happening, something like that would mess up someone’s mind. She would have developed extreme anxiety, paranoia, night terrors, or repression or regression amongst other psychological responses.

Her mind regressed as to protect her from the memory of the trauma. And her developing a mental scar to something that horrific is a very realistic response.

But that’s just my personal viewpoint.

I definitely don’t mean to suggest that Casca wouldn’t’ve been severely traumatized by the events of the Eclipse, just that as far as I’m aware trauma doesn’t manifest this way in real life.

To be fair calling it 100% unrealistic bullshit was fairly harsh of me because the closest real life equivalent would probably be a dissociative fugue state. Based on only casual research those don’t seem to go along with regression to an infantile state – people who’ve experienced fugue states seem to retain things like language skills and generalized knowledge of how the world works despite the amnesia – and regression as a reaction to trauma is more along the lines of returning to comforting childish habits, and things like wetting the bed and more child-like speech patterns in more extreme cases, rather than literally regressing to the mentality of a child.

But you could maybe argue that Casca’s reaction is extra extreme because of the extra extreme fantastical nature of her trauma.

So yeah, you have a fair point, and that’s just based on my half assed google research lol so I’m more than happy to defer to the greater knowledge of your sister and cousin if it seems possible to them.

chaoticgaygriffith:

chaoticgaygriffith:

fa and i were talking the other day about certain people who (imo) misinterpret griffith’s character to be all about power & control … i think that’s a very stupid but also very interesting character analysis and i think i understand where it comes from lol

what baffles me is how people miss all the not so subtle hints that griffith actually cares. but i guess when you’ve already adopted a point of view, your brain shifts reality to fit it. no one’s exempt from that, really

so griffith is the commander (? idk these titles, sorry if i got it wrong, i’m gay) of the band of the hawk, clearly likes being in control, i won’t deny that. ‘claimed’ guts at least partially due to his strength and fighting ability, schemed behind the scenes a lot, eventually when guts tried to leave he wouldn’t let him, all true. but did he break because he wasn’t in control anymore? well, in a way, i guess, i say with my voice going really high. the real conflict of his character was the contest between his dream, motivated by childish desires and guilt, and guts, the only man who made him forget all about it. guts made him lose his reason, lose control, and he fell apart completely. his raw feelings for guts made him feel so weak and vulnerable it was unbearable.

but even so, what griffith really wanted was guts. the problem was it was already too late. too many people had died. too much time had been wasted. on top of that, guts was no longer a certain and stable presence in his life. he could leave at any moment, again, and griffith wouldn’t be able to stop him, and would have to go through another emotional breakdown.

i don’t know, like. if what you get from that is “griffith is a control freak who throws a fit when he can’t puppet master everyone around him” then i applaud you because that’s an

inconceivable

perspective for me. to me, griffith’s character is about guilt, repression, and an unspeakable love, so strong it made him lose sight of everything else, so intense it shattered him into a million pieces. griffith claims he does things for Logical Reasons, but do you really buy that? when he sold his body to a paedophile, do you really think it was because he just wanted more money? when he decided to throw away his humanity, to bury his fragile heart, do you really think he was doing it strategically? i don’t know, must be nice to not care about anything that truly makes griffith compelling as a character, i bet reading berserk is way less painful then

also a couple of points:

  • as someone has pointed out already, griffith didn’t force guts to join the band of the hawk. he invited him, guts refused, griffith was surprised but didn’t really say anything. and then guts was like, we’ll duel for it, and griffith saw his opportunity and accepted
  • this one’s important: griffith ….. didn’t want to become a king so he could have power and money lol. he wanted to create his own society, where things like class, race, and gender wouldn’t matter, just like they didn’t to the hawks. and that’s clearly the type of kingdom falconia is now.

SAME I feel like the aspect of control and whether Griffith has it or not is completely incidental to his character. I don’t think having control is a priority for him, I don’t think it’s a source of anything or a motivation, I think at most it’s a side effect of the enormity of his dream and the fact that to achieve it he has to be a leader.

Like, he is a leader, he sends people to his death and he owns that fact (partially in a denial of his guilt over that fact imho), he wants to be king, and he has a breakdown when Guts leaves that involves claiming ownership of him, but none of those stem from a place of control-freakiness.

When it comes to Guts Casca gets angry because Griffith doesn’t control him as much as he should as a leader and lets him basically do whatever the hell he wants and plans around it. Griffith is the one who tries to ask Guts to help him as a friend by killing a guy rather than ordering him as a soldier, and Guts is the one who wants it to be an order. Griffith makes a point of letting his Hawks choose to follow him because it’s another way he can deny his guilt for their deaths. (”I guess it’s because… they themselves chose to fight.”) Casca follows him after Griffith tells her “do what you wish” (do whatever tf you want is practically a griffith motto, he says it to corkus in the beginning, p much says it to guts wrt battle tactics, etc.)

Idk I don’t get any sense of needing to be in control from Griffith’s personality, I almost see the opposite in the way he denies responsibility for the Hawks’ deaths, his calm interest when discussing the fact that monsters exist even though Zodd almost killed them, his belief in – and more than that, his strong desire to believe in – fate, etc. “We are all at the mercy of a great tide, fate or whatever you want to call it.”

Refusing to let Guts leave came from emotional desperation and falling back on a previously established dynamic that Guts himself suggested and reinforced because he couldn’t communicate his feelings any other way. Imo.

Oh and also like +1 I think Guts fucked him up partially bc to achieve his dream he has to remain in control of himself and when Guts is involved he totally loses it, but I don’t think he really allowed himself to accept the fact that Guts makes him irrational until the torture chamber. I could see an argument that his emotional repression/denial is a way to remain in control of his feelings, but again I don’t think he lives in denial and repression because he’s a control freak, I think it’s because his dream necessitates it.

“Griffith had to make himself strong.” He doesn’t intrinsically desire to be in control of himself or others, he forces himself to be to achieve his dream, which itself is motivated by guilt.

hey just wanted to say, for me, it feels like Femto is obviously the epitome of evil but also Griffith’s bad side yk the ugly side we all have, but taken to the extreme? I feel like a lot of ppl who hate on Griffith, especially golden age Griffith for what happened at the eclipse don’t get it. Femto is not him, at least that’s the way I see it. idk if this make sense, what do you think? me thinks griffith would have taken Guts back bc he cant really stay mad but shit happened and now we all cry

chaoticgaygriffith:

bthump:

Yeah, I’d say whether Femto is a different person from Griffith comes down to semantics and what someone considers personhood, but to me undergoing a magical transformation that augments the “evil” in your heart (which, in Berserk, exists in the hearts of all people) and removes the “goodness” or w/e, as visually depicted by literally losing fragments of himself:

makes you different enough that I have no problem mentally separating human Griffith and Femto, and definitely don’t hate Griffith for Femto’s actions, same way I don’t hate Guts for trying to murder his friends when the armour takes over.

If you (general you) wanna hate Griffith for agreeing to sacrifice his friends, or challenging Guts when he left, or w/e, I’ll disagree but I think that’s fair game. But hating him for Femto’s actions after we’re taken step by step through his magical transformation into an entity made out of evil really doesn’t make sense to me.

Also, do you mean Griffith would’ve taken Guts back if he’d returned, say, a year after the duel, like in canon, but Griffith hadn’t gotten caught fucking Charlotte and therefore hadn’t spent that year in a dungeon?

I think Griffith probably would take him back, because he’s desperate and needy and irrational and in love, but I could see an argument where the duel is a big wake-up call to how emotionally compromised he is by his love for Guts, which could make him view Guts as a huge threat lol, and he might refuse to let him return to try to protect himself from his own destructive, dream-endangering feelings.

Though I think it’s also likely that Griffith isn’t that self aware even after the duel, and would still manage to deny his feelings. Like Guts would come back and Griffith would somehow logic himself into returning to their close relationship without admitting to himself that he just really needs Guts in his life. Like, “it’s not because I desperately want him back at my side, it’s because he knows I assassinated the queen and co and therefore I need him as my ally and not my enemy.” Or something along those lines. Though of course his feelings would be that much harder to deny now, and eventually something would have to give.

Or he could be aware of his feelings now, but too far gone to refuse Guts, a la “if I can’t have him, I don’t care!” Like, “ok Guts’ existence could clearly ruin me, but fuck it, he came back and I’ll be damned if I’m letting him leave me again ever.” Which would open its own associated emotional can of worms lol.

lol sorry I love thinking about Griffith’s stupid feelings and how he deals or doesn’t deal with them.

(And now I’m wondering what if Guts turned around and walked back two minutes after leaving Griffith in the snow. I feel like if that was the case Griffith would be incapable of anything but genuine emotional expression, either in the form of being overwhelmed with relief that Guts came back and immediately taking him back, or rage followed by a sobbing breakdown or smthn.

This is a great topic to muse on lol)

I wonder if, if Guts turned around and walked back, if Griffith would be too vulnerable for relief/rage? Like, Guts just almost left, and Griffith made a fool out of himself by completely letting his emotions get the best of him. I feel like anger, pride, and just plain exhaustion might stop him from acting up again, although … they also might not, damn, I don’t think we can know for sure.

Idk the way he falls to the snow and stares into space, unable to even pretend he’s okay for the Hawks who are just standing there awkwardly, personally has me thinking it’s a v rare moment where he’s not capable of self-control. I’d give it maybe a few minutes before he smiles, stands up, and pretends “it’s nothing,” but if Guts caught him before that point I think his reaction would be raw af.

though there’s def some wishful thinking here because it’s a reaction I’d love to see even if I don’t think I can completely picture it.

If Guts caught him after he put the mask on again I think his reaction could be very different. Maybe angry and prideful, maybe something like, “you won your freedom, so gtfo,” something indicating an “i don’t want your pity” kinda feeling, idk. but i’m just throwing headcanons at the wall lol, like I could see a lot of different reactions as ic depending on how it’s depicted.

kissing-monsters:

bthump:

kissing-monsters
replied to your photo “kissing-monsters: look most of the time a sword is just a sword, but…”

@bthump I can’t copy your tags on mobile to reply but omg you could write literally a novel on the subject of phallic symbols in berserk holy shit (I’d read it)

lol honestly there’s so much material. and when you’re talking about a story where the main character gives a goddess an orgasm by stabbing her with his giant sword i feel like everything is fair game

And it’s like, I get it, Guts basically is his sword and the text that it’s “part of him” is mentioned 45 times but even when you go so okay that’s the subtext

That subtext just lends itself to further IT’S HIS DICK readings

Also TBH I’ll never get over when he’s alone on the roof and swears himself to griffith– it’s the way he’s holding the sword. I literally laughed at that when I watched the anime tje first time because holy shit. Miura must know what he’s doing. He must??

no one can draw this accidentally

image
image
image

it’s just beyond the realm of plausibility

Godhand and the Cenobites Hellraiser are the same I wonder if Griffith’s Femto is going to oppose them all or they fight Guts if he join so since Slan seems to want him so badly to join? I don’t know if this sounds stupid, but do you think NeoGriffith will disagree with Femto is it alter ego, I’m reading Berserk for the 2 times and he’s not easy to figure out. Griffith is a tornado in a glass of water ready to burst he’s constantly fighting his own demon (Femto) is he the one repressing him.

kissing-monsters:

bthump:

I feel like I remember seeing confirmation that Miura was inspired by Hellraiser, tho it could’ve just been speculation I guess, but either way yeah big similarities there lol.

tbh I think we’re supposed to think the possibility exists for Guts to become an apostle, but not a Godhand, since a new member only joins up once every 200 something years. But I personally don’t think it’s going to happen.

But Femto/NeoGriff opposing the rest of the Godhand, now that’s something I think is a possibility. Void is sketchy as fuck, he seems to know more than the rest of the Godhand, and he’s got ultimate big bad written all over him. Plus Miura hinted that he’s going to be really relevant. Add in the fact that theoretically there must’ve been 5 other Godhand members 1000 years ago (since one of them can only incarnate every 1000 years, and this must’ve happened more than once to be a recognized cycle) so Godhands don’t last forever, and ngl I do wonder if there’s going to be a conflict between NeoGriff and the Godhand.

And that’s not a stupid question. Like, I don’t think Femto and NeoGriff are in conflict, but I absolutely wonder if NeoGriff has some inner conflict going on with his reawakened emotions, whatever they are. So if that’s the case I wouldn’t really describe that as NeoGriffith vs Femto so much as the last vestiges of human Griffith vs Femto/NeoGriff, but hey that’s just semantics, no one knows wtf is going on with NeoGriff internally or whether he’s distinct from Femto, etc. So I guess “maybe” is my actual answer to that, haha.

Thanks for the ask, idk there’s lots to think and wonder about. I can’t wait til Miura starts actually like, revealing stuff and getting the plot going again lol.

As much as canonically I’d not enjoy Guts as an apostle, fanfictionally I’d be all the fuck over that (AND he’d be EVEN MORE focussed on Griffith oh delicious).

this is the thing that gets me about apostle guts:

a story where guts became an apostle and neogriffith’s feelings can all actually be blamed on the fetus would be a story about two dudes in love, who both became monsters to escape their self-destructive feelings for each other, and through wacky happenstance ended up magically compelled to love each other anyway

and honestly i’d read tf out of it

Hi! I was just rewatching the first movie because I am not ready yet to re-read the manga. I think Guts’ feelings of heartbreak in the end of the first movie are very palpable. After the assassination he wanted to see Griffith immediately (my heart!), but he had to hear that speech which fucked him up worse. So why did Griff say all that? He really values Guts, and maybe he sees him only romantically and that’s why he doesn’t see him as a friend. He’s possessive but sees him as an equal 1/2

chaoticgaygriffith:

bthump:

2/2 So I’m a bit puzzled and I am wondering about your
interpretation, if you’ve already written a meta about that scene. What I
think is that Guts definitely sees Griffith romantically so he was
doubly heartbroken after hearing that he doesn’t see him as a friend or
equal, so he wanted to leave in order to make him care about him
seriously. But Griffith already loves Guts and respects him, so his
speech is a bit contradictory. Sorry for the long ask btw I love your
blog 🙂

Hi there 🙂 Yk, I don’t think I actually have really talked about this scene in much depth.

My general default reading of Guts and Griffith’s relationship is that they are both romantically in love with each other but neither of them actually realize that they are. (Well, I don’t think Guts has ever quite realized it, at least not consciously, but I do think that Griffith figured it out during his year of torture.)

So in my opinion, Griffith meant his friendship speech.

I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that the conversation that comes right before the assassination attempt and then Griffith’s speech in the narrative included this exchange:

image

Griffith asking Guts to assassinate Julius was, in a way, a gesture of friendship. It was a request for Guts to do this for him, as a favour for a friend rather than an order from a superior, and Guts picked up on Griffith’s careful phrasing and accidentally rebuffed him. I think Guts meant this as a lighthearted joke, but while we don’t get to see Griffith’s reaction to it, I’m willing to bet he took it as a rejection.

Maybe not even a purposeful rejection – but certainly a sign that Guts doesn’t see him as a friend, but sees him as a superior first. I think this leads directly to Griffith’s speech to Charlotte where he proclaims that he has no equals. Like, it’s completely accurate, whether or not it’s arrogant as well – people either look up at him as a saviour or symbol of their ability to rise in the world, or look down on him as a symbol of corruption in the system.

I also think there’s another important aspect to his speech.

What he describes to Charlotte as a friend is someone who has his own dream, separate from Griffith’s, and would pursue it even if it meant clashing with him.

To Griffith, whose life revolves around his dream and who frames things like that because it’s how he sees the world, what this translates to is that a friend is someone who won’t die in service to his dream.

I think he tries to keep an emotional distance between himself and his Hawks because, frankly, they tend to die in battle, and it fucks him up (as we see in Casca’s flashback to the dead kid and the morning after Gennon.)

So he says the Hawks aren’t his friends because he can’t think of them that way. They see him as a perfect leader, he sees them as people who he will one day send to their deaths, simply by ordering them into whichever battle eventually kills them.

So when Guts re-establishes that he sees Griffith as a leader and tells him to order him to do things instead of requesting favours, it’s a reminder to Griffith to distance himself.

Of course, it doesn’t actually work. He can’t turn off his feelings for Guts even if he tries to ignore and downplay them (also see: I had no reason at all for risking my life for you. He can acknowledge that yeah, he did do that, but he can’t acknowledge why – because he loves him – not even to himself.) Guts is still the only person who Griffith allows to see and participate in the shady shit he does to rise to the top, the stuff that makes him feel dirty. He still risks his life for Guts. He still sends a search party after Guts and Casca despite going against the wishes of the nobles he’s supposed to be sucking up to, and then ditches an important meeting to see them in person. He still expresses concern for Guts’ safety before the Battle of Doldrey. And he crashes and burns harder than anyone has ever crashed and burned after Guts leaves lol.

(Now there is an obvious contradiction in that Griffith wants to be Guts friend and equal rather than the superior who will send him to his death eventually, but also won’t let him leave the Hawks, but that’s plain old fear of rejection imo, and not understanding Guts’ reasons for leaving, and an irrational emotional implosion lol.)

AND I think there’s a third aspect that ought to be explored: Griffith can only call an equal who would fight for his own dream a friend because this definition allows him to continue prioritizing his dream. To save Guts’ life at the risk to his own, rather than let Guts be killed for his dream, is, at its core, a betrayal of his dream, and the thousands of people who’ve died for it. But if his “friend” was an “equal” with his own obsessive dream, then in theory he’d never have to choose between his friend and his dream – it would be understood that their respective dreams would be prioritized. Another reason for the “and should anyone trample that dream he would oppose him body and soul… even if that threat were me myself” clause.

At the end of the day Griffith already loves and respects Guts, of course – he has from day one – but he can’t admit that yet, not even to himself, imo, because it’s a serious, serious threat to everything he’s built his life around.

Tbh I feel like there’s a lot more to say on this topic, especially how and why Griffith represses and denies his feelings for Guts, and what his dream means to him, etc, but I think I’m definitely going to end up writing a long ass analytical post about him soon because I’m really feeling all this nitty gritty Griffith stuff at the moment lol. But yeah when it comes to Promrose Hall I think this is pretty much my thoughts on what Griffith’s speech is about.

Anyway, thanks for the message, I love talking about this kinda stuff 🙂 And ty I’m glad you enjoy my blog.

I love love looooooove Griffith’s immediate reaction to finding out Guts intends to leave. At that point I don’t think he had forgotten about Guts boss-zoning him, and him wanting to just … leave without a goddamn word only rubbed salt into that wound. In my opinion, along with impulsive irrationality fueled by pure fear, this is one of the reasons he so quickly resorted to basically saying “You can’t leave because I own you.” It’s spiteful out of hurt–if you’re going to treat me like a stranger, then I’m going to treat you like one too.

Yessss ia! And I also think that along those lines, while Griffith might not have been like hugely devastated Guts’ apparent rejection of his attempt to lower that barrier of commander/soldier between them at the time (yk he might’ve taken it as the light joke it was meant to be as well as just an incidental reminder that that’s not their relationship), after he learned that Guts wanted to leave I’ll bet he replayed that moment in his head and it turned into Guts asking to be ordered because he wouldn’t do it as a friend.

Like a judgement – I won’t voluntarily do this abhorrent dirty work for you, but I’ll do it if you order me to because I’m a soldier.

Griffith asking him instead of ordering him imo had another level of wanting Guts’ acceptance of his “dirty side.” It was a show of trust.

So I could def see “wrest yourself away by your sword,” coming from a place of spite + desperation from that angle too. You’ll only stay by my side if I order you to? Then that’s what I’ll do.

kissing-monsters:

bthump:

yesgabsstuff:

bthump:

Password: Enough

Happy New Year everyone, I’m ringing it in by finally posting the fruits of me getting way too into a vid that was only supposed to be a fun evening of playing around on Premiere.

It’s set to an Avril Lavigne song and it’s earnest about it. Enjoy!

This hurt my feelings. Thank you for making it.

thank you! i’m glad it succeeded in its intended purpose lol

Me: I’d LOVE a super painful griffguts vid oh man

Me, getting exactly what I wanted: no but this hurts???????????

my absolute favourite shot was post-torture griffith held by guts, when his hand strokes over his arm oh my god idk why but that hit my right in my stomach with the flippy feels your timed it with the music perfectly f

also excellent choice of griffith pov, I didn’t expect that exactly

Thank you! that shot was one of the few I threw in at the start and never changed over the course of editing, I’m v glad it worked for you <33

lol i listened to this song for the first time in like a decade a few months ago and had this idea percolating ever since. the lyrics are so weirdly perfect. and i obviously love griffith so there might be a few more griffith pov or centric vids in the works. i have ideas at least. (and most of my guts centric song ideas are black swordsman-y so they won’t work sadly)

(Source: https://player.vimeo.com/)

kissing-monsters:

bthump:

kissing-monsters:

okay further on this point which is also in the blurb on the back of this volume, “brought to his knees by his first defeat” isn’t saying he’s so wounded that guts physically won their duel– I give griffith more credit for knowing guts strength– the defeat is guts leaving and griffith being unable to stop that/not having planned for it at all

right like this is one line out of like 20 of casca and others saying griffith was fucked up because guts left – this just underscores that Guts leaving was a defeat. Yk, like he’s defeated emotionally by this turn of events, not that he’s devasted just because he lost a duel lol. Guts leaving happens along with his first ‘defeat in battle’ to emphasize the emotional significance of Guts leaving and how unprecedented Griffith’s feelings here are, it doesn’t contradict the million other times ppl described him as totally gone to pieces because Guts abandoned him

but berserk fans always take this one line out of context and ignore everything else 😡

it’s even in the official summaries because if you take ALL the other lines, and don’t ignore them it changes the meaning of this one line and people are apparently TERRIFIED in any official berserk summaries (as well as a significant chunk of the fandom) to admit a) griffith has any feelings for humans and b) that he’s IN LOVE WITH GUTS jesus chrimmeny it’s practically textual. the barest critical reading of the kind you need to actually comprehend fiction shows that.

it’s sad how the official stuff can’t even be vague about something being a bit gay?

That’s so ridic, like you’d think they can say “Griffith was devastated by Guts’ decision to leave,” or something, after all the manga says it over and over again in unambiguous words lol. tbh the fact that even official summaries dance around that just means it’s obvious how gay the story is I guess. Don’t want to accidentally turn away the dudebros reading for the big sword by suggesting there might be some heavy + suggestive emotional content inside.

kissing-monsters:

okay further on this point which is also in the blurb on the back of this volume, “brought to his knees by his first defeat” isn’t saying he’s so wounded that guts physically won their duel– I give griffith more credit for knowing guts strength– the defeat is guts leaving and griffith being unable to stop that/not having planned for it at all

right like this is one line out of like 20 of casca and others saying griffith was fucked up because guts left – this just underscores that Guts leaving was a defeat. Yk, like he’s defeated emotionally by this turn of events, not that he’s devasted just because he lost a duel lol. Guts leaving happens along with his first ‘defeat in battle’ to emphasize the emotional significance of Guts leaving and how unprecedented Griffith’s feelings here are, it doesn’t contradict the million other times ppl described him as totally gone to pieces because Guts abandoned him

but berserk fans always take this one line out of context and ignore everything else 😡

I’ve been re-reading the last few chapters and I keep recalling Skull Knight’s words that Casca regaining her sanity might not be what she wishes. On the other hand we have a Guts who smiled, who enjoys having reliable comrades and has prioritized Casca over his revenge. Things are eerily calm in this group. The story’s focal point is Griffith/ Guts and the latter’s revenge, and seeing him calm rn makes me wonder what will occur to fuel his revenge. What do you think this event will be?

bthump:

Idk if this is a prediction or wishful thinking lol, but if I had to lay down a bet I think she’s going to wake up, have all the Eclipse related betrayal and despair and trauma hit her, and use the behelit, then go for revenge herself. I’ve been theorizing this for a while and tbh I haven’t come up with anything better yet so I’m still going with it.

My hopes for her getting a happy ending away from Guts are essentially zero, especially since reading in an interview that Miura only had her survive the Eclipse so Guts wouldn’t be able to fully move on.

And I’m assuming that Skull Knight’s warnings are going to come to something other than Casca being prickly for a while before hooking back up with Guts or w/e, then getting killed to make him want revenge again. Dramatic shudder.

So what I really want is for her to finally, finally react to what happened to her, and for that reaction to be epic as fuck.

 I also think it’s plausible because:

  • there’ve been a lot of ominous shots of the behelit recently
  • flora specifically suggested guts might be carrying it for someone else
  • guts revenge quest was bad for him partially because it wasn’t his right to avenge the hawks after abandoning them, but if anyone earned some vengeance it’s casca
  • griffith instinctively acted to save casca once, giving him a huge weakness against her
  • “What will she do if she does get her sanity back?” Just sounds so delightfully ominous and suggests Casca actively doing something Guts wouldn’t like.
  • guts’ revenge quest is played out imo, time for something new. also seeing casca decide to go full monster in her rage would probably fuck him up and wake up the beast of darkness, so it would still motivate him to do something
  • honestly there’s some great stuff with morality and apostles just waiting to be explored and seeing a beloved character turn into one would be really interesting
  • Casca’s strong, badass, and her anger manifests in violent lashing out making her a perfect candidate to take over the revenge stuff.
  • also more reasons i made a big list ages ago here

I think Guts hasn’t really given up on the idea of revenge yet – he was still fantasizing about going back after Griffith while on the boat – but it would be pretty anticlimatic if Casca just stuck around in Elfhelm to recover while Guts went “ok side quest over, back to the main quest now,” so I’m sure there’s going to be something more to it.

And I like the idea of Casca taking over the revenge quest and Guts maybe re-evaluating himself, his motives, etc, while fucked up once again because things went south and he did something with mostly good intentions and everything got all fucked up anyway.

Like tbh I think that the conflict as it’s set up now, ie revenge = bad, helping Casca = good, is much, much too simplistic for a story like Berserk. It’s boring lol, whether it ends up tragic and Guts backslides back into revenge, whether he continues doing the “right” thing and chooses Casca over it, it’s still black and white. In the Golden Age there were no easy right or wrong options – eg Guts thought he was doing the right thing by leaving, turned out to be a huge mistake that fucked everything up, and I really liked that. I think the current arc has the potential to be similar which would be great imo.

Guts isn’t helping Casca solely out of the goodness of his heart, he’s doing it because he wants the old Casca back despite misgivings and warnings that he might be going about it the wrong way – and he’s doing it to distract himself from revenge, and also from the fact that he’s not so gung-ho about revenge now that Griffith looks human again. Imo. It doesn’t have to be as simple as revenge = bad, magical therapy = good, and looking closely at Guts’ motivations makes me wonder and hope that, like the Golden Age, a seemingly positive choice could have negative consequences, and the secret actual right choice is dealing with your many issues, Guts, instead of running off for a dream, or revenge, or to “force” someone’s sanity back.

so if casca were to sacrifice someone with the Bad Egg who would it be???. farnese?.

@metalbutter​ that’s the going assumption but i have an extremely unlikely pipe dream that maybe she could sacrifice moonlight boy

it
would feel more symbolic of losing whatever romantic family potential
w/ guts there theoretically was, whereas sacrificing farnese just feels
like the only possible choice available and therefore not significant
enough on a narrative scale, since Guts can’t be sacrificed twice. plus
there’s this sequence of panels way back when:

image

i mean that’s kind of ominous right?

plus apostles sacrifice some weird shit sometimes, like eggman sacrificing “the world.” a ghost kid doesn’t seem like too much of a stretch after that.

kissing-monsters:

bthump:

kissing-monsters:

the thing with berserk is I’d love more fan content and there is stuff out there in the non-tumblr portion of the internet that’s mostly discussion, which would be great but I don’t think I could be more scared of cis-male opinions on berserk tbh

I’ve barely read any and but I feel like I can… picture it based on what little I’ve seen and I do not want. strongly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4JVtQwWHBk

this is the only thing that springs to mind as something from straight dude-centric berserk fandom that i mostly agreed with. it’s been a while since i watched it and i’m sure i’ve refined my own opinions since then so idk if i’d still be going ‘yeah you’re not wrong’ at most of his points, but it’s probably still worth a watch

but yeah in general i avoid everything outside my little tumblr circle, greater berserk fandom is the absolute worst

a) oh hell yeah, thank you! the title of that video is even interesting and it’s actually come up recommended on youtube for me a few times and is one of the ones I was scared to click on and

b)

#like from the looks of it he has a video dedicated to calling griffith’s feelings more profound/incomprehensible than romance and attraction#so yk it’s that kind of no homo vibe

that’s the kind of thing I want to avoid but at the same time if it’s a downplaying or an alternate explanation I can live with it– I think the only thing I’d come close to accepting is that there’s something more “profound” that motivates him, or well. no accepting, but I can fully understand why people would take that view while also completely disagreeing? there’s at least justification for that in some ways. (although I think that view in itself is as you said, no homo-ish, but also accepts something the narrative pretty explicitly explains is a Bad Idea: making griffith into something “more than”, or someone on a pedestal, who is incomprehensible in nature, is one of the deepest reasons for griffith doing what he does imo).

 and c) I’ve now had like my first ever unexpected negative anon (a transphobic one to boot! wow amazing) from this fandom. oh. dear.

(also just watching now and “the less you look at griffith, the worse he seems” is a pretty observation though. yes good).


but also accepts something the narrative pretty explicitly explains is a
Bad Idea: making griffith into something “more than”, or someone on a
pedestal, who is incomprehensible in nature, is one of the deepest
reasons for griffith doing what he does imo 

yk this is a great point actually. part of the point of griffith’s narrative is that he’s only human. like, i do think his feelings are incomprehensible to him, at least until he spends a year doing nothing but being tortured and examining those feelings, but they’re not particularly grandiose or more-than.

I actually really dig that as a thematic thing now that you’ve brought it up – Griffith’s feelings for Guts should be plain old ordinary human love and sexuality, because Griffith is an ordinary human who just like… sucks at recognizing/accepting that he is, and sucks at being recognized as an ordinary human.

and the same goes for femto/neogriff since despite being a demigod demon in berserk all these monsters and gods originate in recognizable ordinary human feelings.

like damn that just neatly tied one of my favourite berserk themes to griffith and guts’ love, that’s perfect.

(also tbf I may be misrepresenting what he says about griffguts since I don’t remember the one i linked very well and I haven’t actually watched his video about it, I’m just going off a few comments on it that I read while trying to figure out if it was worth watching lol)

ps lol i went for a good like 8 months without getting any anon hate
despite regularly posting controversial opinions, but now there’s one
anon blowing up my inbox, and it’s def the same person who sent you
those messages lol. sorry about that, she probably found you thru me.

kissing-monsters:

the thing with berserk is I’d love more fan content and there is stuff out there in the non-tumblr portion of the internet that’s mostly discussion, which would be great but I don’t think I could be more scared of cis-male opinions on berserk tbh

I’ve barely read any and but I feel like I can… picture it based on what little I’ve seen and I do not want. strongly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4JVtQwWHBk

this is the only thing that springs to mind as something from straight dude-centric berserk fandom that i mostly agreed with. it’s been a while since i watched it and i’m sure i’ve refined my own opinions since then so idk if i’d still be going ‘yeah you’re not wrong’ at most of his points, but it’s probably still worth a watch

but yeah in general i avoid everything outside my little tumblr circle, greater berserk fandom is the absolute worst

kissing-monsters:

bthump:

kissing-monsters
replied to your post “psa to any of my followers potentially interested in making amvs or…”

do you make amvs/vids then? any berserk ooones?

noncommittal handwave

i sometimes have creative streaks where i vid nonstop for a while and then never actually reach the point where i feel comfortable declaring it done, so they all end up 90% finished on my harddrive instead of posted anywhere.

but I’ve also gotten much better at participating in fandom in the last year or so so there’s a much higher chance now of maybe finishing something and posting it at some point in the future. and if I do it will probably be berserk related lol.

I would be so interested to see any vids you do finish! I’m big on vids in fandom and it doesn’t seem to be as common to find them anymore for whatever reason in live action stuff, but berserk just seems like it could be amazing for vids. (I guess also amv’s are a slightly different culture to live action vids, hrm– sidetracked sorry). 

also please don’t be shy to share, this fandom needs all the guts/griffith content it can get and you have such an eye for their subtext(/text) that I feel like you must have something to say in a vid 🙂

hey thank you so much for the encouragement 🙂 ikwym i’ve also been a big fan of vidding and vids for most of my time in fandom but on tumblr the live action vid side at least seems less centralized and harder to find.

and ok full disclosure: i actually have a (very self indulgent and kind of ridic fair warning) berserk vid i’ve been working on for the last week or so and it’s just about done so i’ll probably post it in a few days. i didn’t want to say b4 bc i wasn’t sure i was going to finish it lol. but ngl this and @seisans reply kind of spurred me on a bit so ty both :))

kissing-monsters:

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anime dub adventures continued

“Stay away from me… if you touch me now… if you so much as touch my shoulder… I’ll never be able to… you and I will never be…”

you know how much i love that the moment of despair that opens the behelit is the moment guts touches him but man, preceeding it with “you and I will never be…” is one hell of a choice

like the manga translation of “I’ll never… I’ll never…!” is functionally meaningless as far as I can tell. Maybe I’ll never forgive you? But it’s not the point, the point is Guts’ touch sending Griffith into despair. Griffith’s words just draw attention to it. Despair + touch.

“You and I will never be…” on the other hand, like, that’s nothing but a statement on Griffith’s abject horror of being touched in that moment by a man he can’t have, right? How else can I interpret that? Add “I’ll never be able to” and all I’m getting is something along the lines of, “I’ll never be able to let you go but I’ll never have you either.”

anyway how do ppl interpret Griffith’s horror at being touched by Guts and subsequent despair, regardless of specifics of translation? I’ve always kind of wondered but I don’t think I’ve seen any meta or interpretations or anything about it at all.

I didn’t know the manga version was so different, that’s interesting. Maybe the reason the dub extrapolated to “I’ll never be able to…” is close to what the manga intended. “I’ll never be able to… have you again,” maybe?

I think you’re bang on with never be able to let you go/have you either, because that’s pretty clearly what happens. all of griffith’s despair is essentially that at that point, he can never keep guts and he wants to get away from everything he’s ruined but at the same time he’s clearly still got the same old horror of guts leaving/not being able to hold/own him anymore

I guess it also has a question of how much he instinctively knew what the behelit would do or not?

@chaoticgaygriffith said:

i can’t remember the original japanese phrasing so just based on the
manga translation i interpreted it as “i’ll never get over you” though
fully knowing that i’ll probably NEVER get to find out what he actually
meant. i mean, we can intuit the basic meaning, but still. god damn it
miura

Yeah regardless of how the sentence might’ve technically ended, I think the meaning of “I’ll never be able to get over you/let you go/that kinda sentiment” makes the most sense and is definitely my favourite interpretation lol.

And yeah since in that moment he believed Guts wanted to leave again, honestly I feel like a visceral emotional understanding of Griffith’s despair at being touched by him (which tbh is rare for me in fiction lol). Like as a response to these circumstances – he’s so consumed by love for this dude that he spent a year thinking about him while being tortured to stay sane, but he thinks this dude is going to leave him, and then Guts’ physical touch as like the final proof of how vulnerable Griffith is to this love and how he can be destroyed by it – the behelit screaming representing Griffith’s despair as Guts touches him just feels so damn right.

Also I tend to think Griffith doesn’t know anything about how the behelit functions, but imo it still works super well narratively with Griffith’s resulting decision to basically cut that love out of him by sacrificing Guts.

lol sorry I’m just so into this scene rn I had to go on another spiel about it.

kissing-monsters:

bthump:

 replied to your post “madchen
replied to your post “the berserk episode synopses on…”

“the only woman guts ever loved” as if guts has ever come within breathing room of any other woman since the only one he knows personally is on account of her being his coworker and thus forced to share space with his smelly b*tch ass….

lmao true

also luv that w/ het ships ppl can declare shit like this with utter conviction despite guts never speaking or thinking of casca in terms of love, and despite the writer saying that casca and guts hooked up for extra eclipse drama and casca’s only around now so guts can keep being bitter.

but anything gay? clearly fake and just reaching

so it’s been stated that casca didn’t die literally to fuel guts angst (which, let’s leave aside how disgusting THAT is for a second) and bitterness, which leads me to believe that basically

without casca there as a very heavy reminder

guts would have 100% just forgiven griffith pretty much asap after seeing him again? ha

lmao right?

I mean yeah if Casca died with the rest of the Band during the Eclipse then sure Guts absolutely 100% would forgive Griffith/Femto immediately because it’s pretty clear that he never blamed him for sacrificing everyone in the first place lol. He was sad, sure, but he wasn’t angry about Griffith choosing to make the sacrifice. If anything he’d’ve blamed himself. But if say Casca died during the Conviction Arc, should we assume Guts would’ve gone ‘ok w/e fuck it idc anymore’ and moved on?

Actually yk what considering his “forgot my urge to kill” moment and how sad he was about NeoGriff ditching him it’s actually not that hard of a sell.

But damn either way I wish Miura would do something with Casca’s character other than continue making her an accessory to Guts’ desire for revenge.

kissing-monsters:

bthump:

bthump:

Browsing through the rebirth chapters and it just leaps out at me how utterly sexualized Griffith is, especially in comparison to Casca, who is (at least by Miura’s standards) totally desexualized.

Guts’ internal conflict is essentially desire vs responsibility, ie revenge vs escorting Casca to Elfhelm, ie Griffith vs Casca, and the visual depiction of that conflict is straight up, extremely loud and clear, naked sexy Griffith vs Casca all childlike in a shapeless cloak

Keep reading

yk what I was partly wrong here and over simplifying things

image

it’s not that Guts’ desire for revenge is sexualized through Griffith, it’s that Griffith’s sexualization is actually at odds with Guts’ desire to kill him. You can’t rly ignore “the instant I saw him… I’d forgotten my urge to kill.”

Revenge and sexual desire aren’t rly equated yet. Guts wants to kill faceless masked bird boy with great prejudice

image

he does not want to kill sexy naked Griffith.

image
image

Now that he’s actually reachable I’m having second thoughts oh no what the fuck.

So when the hound says he’s longing for Griffith and tells him to give him a heap of raw iron, what’s actually going on is less sexualization of revenge, and more… revengalization of sex, yk?

Sexual desire and violent stabby revenge are being equated by the hound to encourage Guts to pursue Griffith. Guts wants to stick something in him all right, and he should still want revenge, so it’s best if that something is a literal sword. As opposed to his desire for revenge becoming sexualized, the inherent sexualization of Guts’ desire for Griffith is what the hound seizes on and twists to lead Guts back to revenge.

Anyway basically Griffith’s desirability is still hardcore contrasted to Casca’s lack thereof, but honestly I think it’s less a metaphor for wanting revenge vs being stuck babysitting and more plain old straightforward gay subtext which is then utilized to give an added layer of complexity to Guts’ desire for revenge (and desire to desire revenge.)

ik this comes across as fake jokey analysis and/or giving the subtext too much weight so I can reach super hard, but tbh idk how to read this part without it. i mean you could just say that Guts fantasizing about Griffith’s pretty hair and ass and forgetting his urge to kill and whining about being stuck with Casca and Griffith abandoning him and the hound’s many innuendos are all unrelated or accidental but

l
b
r

I’d actually love to see a dead serious analysis of this like you’ve done but deliberately disregarding any gay subtext just to see if it could make anywhere near as much compelling sense? I don’t think there’s a way this makes sense without at least some gay subtext– nor does basically the majority of berserk in general, which makes me curious but also scared to branch outside of tumblr for people’s meta on it.

tbh i’m kind of curious too lol. i’ve seen bits and pieces of non gay meta/opinions/etc on brief forays onto reddit and skull knight etc but nothing involving Guts and Griffith’s characters/relationship that I didn’t immediately think of counterpoints to.

and like for a thought experiment i tried wracking my brain to come up with a heterosexual explanation for one of the most homoerotic moments

image

and the best I got is that Guts is picturing NeoGriffith like that to serve as a strong contrast to Femto, yk all naked with flowing hair as opposed to the exoskeleton + helmet look.

and it still doesn’t explain why an image meant to convey a sense of humanity is the most sensual image of a person we’ve seen in 176 chapters of Berserk give or take actual sex scenes, and that’s including Griffith’s resurrection (in which he’s described as “the desired”) a few chapters earlier.

like idk at the end of the day I think Berserk does mostly make sense if you assume Guts and Griffith’s feelings for each other are 110% platonic, at least the plot does, but i def think the homoeroticsm adds more depth and richness, plus it’s a simple cohesive explanation for a lot of stuff that is otherwise pointless or weird, from Casca’s jealousy to a bunch of images of Griffith to their intensity-at-first-sight vibe to why Griffith didn’t answer when Guts asked if he was gay, etc etc, and it’s disingenuous to ignore it imo.

I don’t really have a theory, but as you said Sonia might be a self taught witch. But to use the witch powers doesn’t she have to connect with spirits? Her thing reminds me more of the elves, but idk, it’s probably not important in the end.

inablackmirror:

bthump:

inablackmirror:

bthump:

hmm yeah it is kind of inconsistent with the whole schierke calling on spirits thing, the rituals, etc. good point!

maybe she will have a surprise backstory, like only being half human or something. or at least it’s a worthwhile headcanon, if we never learn anything more about her.

I sort of feel like she’s just…different. As she says, alike to Griffith.

Legit tbh. It wouldn’t surprise me if we never got more of an explanation than this, and I’m ok with that.

I like to think of her as girl!Griffith and someday I want to see her grow up to be a horrifying beautiful world ruler of a utopia or something via sketchy supernatural powers too.

lol I could see this, and I’d be into it. tbh I actually really hope we get to see her as a powerful adult after the theoretical Elfhelm timeskip. I could easily see her as Griffith’s second in command, or ruler of a sub kingdom or something. Also assuming she matures a bit and doesn’t just turn into a drusilla-esque wacky psychic.

I don’t really have a theory, but as you said Sonia might be a self taught witch. But to use the witch powers doesn’t she have to connect with spirits? Her thing reminds me more of the elves, but idk, it’s probably not important in the end.

inablackmirror:

bthump:

hmm yeah it is kind of inconsistent with the whole schierke calling on spirits thing, the rituals, etc. good point!

maybe she will have a surprise backstory, like only being half human or something. or at least it’s a worthwhile headcanon, if we never learn anything more about her.

I sort of feel like she’s just…different. As she says, alike to Griffith.

Legit tbh. It wouldn’t surprise me if we never got more of an explanation than this, and I’m ok with that.

interesting question….

berserkerlover221:

since Shisu was not in her right mind…who really took care of Guts as a baby?? cus that boy need to learn to talk, walk, eat…i know damn well it wasn’t shisu. i mean she probably played and talked to him but didn’t teach him to walk and all the other stuff. i think it was the handmaidens…now all i want is a chapter dedicated to them taking care of guts

@yesgabsstuff @bthump @mastermistressofdesire

I never thought about this, good question. Yeah the handmaidens or whoever they were seems like a reasonable explanation. Guts probably learned a lot through imitation too, even without direct instruction, but yeah I’d fall back on the women with Shisu probably pitching in.

And I guess we don’t really know how out of it Shisu was – could be that between finding Guts and dying 3 years later she recovered mentally. It would make more sense for her to be in a depressed dissociative state for a few days rather than totally driven insane by a miscarriage imo, though Miura is kind of weird about trauma and mental regression with his female characters.

mastermistressofdesire:

mastermistressofdesire:

Yes Griffith looks pretty here.
Like he always does.

And we’ve talked about how cute he looks from Guts perspective.being a symbolic indicator, perhaps of his feelings .

Except this is directly a Guts perspective shot and we also get this

Look at Guts expression as he looks at aforementioned cute Griffith. Look at that expression and tell me it isn’t full of affection.

yes!

And this is his first memory of Griffith post Eclipse right, so it’s so bittersweet too bc it’s not just Guts remembering Griffith (and how hot he was), he’s remembering his own love and affection and admiration of him.

berserkerlover221:

maybe i’m looking to deep in this but farnese dialogue on the top remind me of a certain someone…idk if im trippin but..when i read her dialogue it reminded me of Guts little talk about the campfire of dreams

@bthump @craigslost @yesgabsstuff

i’ve totally thought this too actually! idk i think it fits in with the vibe of guts’ new rpg group being a chance to not repeat the mistakes of the past maybe?

like guts didn’t get a second chance until it was too late, but farnese did. it’s kinda heartwarming.

yesgabsstuff:

bthump:

yesgabsstuff:

mastermistressofdesire:

buhserk:

i was thinking about griffith’s parents earlier, what they might’ve been like, what happened to them, etc. and i thought about griffith’s mother and nearly burst into tears

I’ve thought about this too like.

Damn who was that lady.

Also i had this dream like she was a single lady and stuff and then she got sick and she had these really assholish lovers and thats were griffith gets his….

And griffith saw her getting murdered or something and ran away proper.

My thoughts are not very coherent about this.

@jillresia @griffithsgaymom @yesgabsstuff @bthump any ideas?

I always assumed he was some kind of out of wedlock birth and that his mother was very young. I kinda feel like she had some kind of job that was “respectable” before getting pregnant and after that had to hustle for her money either by prostitution or thieving. (Probably some combination of the two.)

I mean what would be more distracting and seemingly harmless than a very pretty young woman with a baby? She could pick a lot of pockets that way. I feel like he ended up wanting to help in some way when he got older but I feel like she didn’t let him get too involved in the worst of it. She had some holdovers from her old life, maybe even a book or two and she tried to cobble together some education for him. (This may have led to her putting her trust in people she shouldn’t have and Griffith suffered for it. He never wanted to see her sad so he never told her.)

I feel like she used to get into self destructive moods too but never let herself take it as far as Griffith would grow to. Despite her best efforts to hide these feelings, Griffith still internalized the idea that it was his job to keep her happy.

He gets his looks from her. She died young. I feel she probably died from disease rather than violence because I think that really solidified his desire to never live in poverty again. She always told Griffith that his father was someone important (which might go a long way to explaining his absence regardless of what kind of person his father actually was.)

I could see his father being anyone really. A part of me wonders if his father actually was wealthy or possibly even noble because it would be easier for someone like that to abandon their child. I could also see him equally being a product of love or of violence. It’s like this huge blank slate.

Also who were Guts’ biological parents? It always makes me sad to think that but for fate he could have been raised by someone who loved him.

i have few ideas of my own but i love all these. esp griffith’s mom being a part time thief, i really dig that for some reason.

i guess one thing i can add is that i really dig the idea of griffith’s parents having been in love, and both common, before dying young

it’s a good contrast to griffith’s dream of a marriage of convenience with charlotte. and maybe his mother waxing poetic about his dead father griffith never knew, hearing about love but only ever seeing the sad aftermath, is part of why he’s kind of disconnected from the concept

I totally agree about the blankness there making them both more mythic. The romantic in me wonders if Griffith’s father died in the war? Like his parents intended to marry but he was conscripted before they could and she found out she was pregnant after he died. I wonder if his father was actually someone like Guts.

i kind of like the idea of his father being guts-like, at least in a born soldier (or some other trade), happy just doing his thing kind of way. it wouldn’t really make a difference to griffith as a character necessarily or inform his relationship w/ guts in any way as he never knew him, but it adds a level to griffith’s choice between guts + dream, and how by choosing his dream he throws away part of his humanity and changes into something else.

relatedly i was thinking about griffith’s mother being a dreamer who longed for more, but what if she was actually relatively content? at least before dad dying. idk i’m liking the idea of his parents being symbolic of what griffith throws away in pursuit of his dream.

yesgabsstuff:

mastermistressofdesire:

buhserk:

i was thinking about griffith’s parents earlier, what they might’ve been like, what happened to them, etc. and i thought about griffith’s mother and nearly burst into tears

I’ve thought about this too like.

Damn who was that lady.

Also i had this dream like she was a single lady and stuff and then she got sick and she had these really assholish lovers and thats were griffith gets his….

And griffith saw her getting murdered or something and ran away proper.

My thoughts are not very coherent about this.

@jillresia @griffithsgaymom @yesgabsstuff @bthump any ideas?

I always assumed he was some kind of out of wedlock birth and that his mother was very young. I kinda feel like she had some kind of job that was “respectable” before getting pregnant and after that had to hustle for her money either by prostitution or thieving. (Probably some combination of the two.)

I mean what would be more distracting and seemingly harmless than a very pretty young woman with a baby? She could pick a lot of pockets that way. I feel like he ended up wanting to help in some way when he got older but I feel like she didn’t let him get too involved in the worst of it. She had some holdovers from her old life, maybe even a book or two and she tried to cobble together some education for him. (This may have led to her putting her trust in people she shouldn’t have and Griffith suffered for it. He never wanted to see her sad so he never told her.)

I feel like she used to get into self destructive moods too but never let herself take it as far as Griffith would grow to. Despite her best efforts to hide these feelings, Griffith still internalized the idea that it was his job to keep her happy.

He gets his looks from her. She died young. I feel she probably died from disease rather than violence because I think that really solidified his desire to never live in poverty again. She always told Griffith that his father was someone important (which might go a long way to explaining his absence regardless of what kind of person his father actually was.)

I could see his father being anyone really. A part of me wonders if his father actually was wealthy or possibly even noble because it would be easier for someone like that to abandon their child. I could also see him equally being a product of love or of violence. It’s like this huge blank slate.

Also who were Guts’ biological parents? It always makes me sad to think that but for fate he could have been raised by someone who loved him.

i have few ideas of my own but i love all these. esp griffith’s mom being a part time thief, i really dig that for some reason.

i guess one thing i can add is that i really dig the idea of griffith’s parents having been in love, and both common, before dying young

it’s a good contrast to griffith’s dream of a marriage of convenience with charlotte. and maybe his mother waxing poetic about his dead father griffith never knew, hearing about love but only ever seeing the sad aftermath, is part of why he’s kind of disconnected from the concept

mastermistressofdesire:

Also about the duel in the snow

I find it really cool that Griffith was the one thinking about using a move which would most probably kill guts if he lost the slightest control, but ends up completely missing the mark.

Whereas Guts is the one who ends up winning by using a move which would have most definitely killed Griffith if he had an iota less control over his monster blade than he did.

And he doesn’t even consider the possibility of what could happen if it goes south. There’s no- “Oh god how can I do that, it might kill him” moment.

Which is

ALSO incredible because Guts is actually not at all used to holding back his hacks in any way. He’s never had to before. His fighting style is kind of the reason the manga is called ‘Berserk’

So there was more precedent for him to lose control than Griffith, whose style is ALL about precision and control.

I may also be implying that sure, Griffith’s ‘I’m willing to risk your death if you don’t stay’ reasoning is messed up.

But so is Guts ‘im willing to risk your death if you don’t let me go.’ reasoning.

Of course it’s subconscious for him.

But STILl

man there’s so much to love about the duel. the contrast between Guts and Griffith’s states of mind, both between each other and their usual selves in battle, is so good.

and now that you mention it it’s rly striking that Griffith is the one considering the possibility of killing Guts and… not exactly waffling, but talking himself into going for it anyway, while Guts is like, “it’s Griffith so I can’t let my guard down, but I’m weirdly super chill rn, nice.”

I think Guts’ confident control is partially bc his strike was basically that drill he does where he swings his sword and stops it level 200 times in a row, but it’s still interesting to me that he didn’t even consider the possibility of accidentally killing Griffith.