Holy shit so that’s what she used to look like. I couldn’t pin down what was wrong with her face, but it just unsettled me.
Maybe muira just needs a sec to get used to drawing Casca as Casca with~sanity~ (personality) again?
casca’s face in this chapter was seriously so jarring. i don’t think
it’s even really the proportions so much as the more feminine angle of
her eyes maybe?
this
vs
Wtf it doesn’t even look like the same person. It’s the angle and shape of the eyes and brows that’s doing it I think. Her eyebrows got done at a hella nice salon.
(she looks sort of elfish. Maybe elf magic is to blame, or (probably) he’s just forgotten how to draw her.)
lol yeah the eyebrows are super conspicuous too
i guess to miura’s credit he got a lot better at shading her lips, thankfully. so you win some you lose some.
yk i think guts is supposed to seem chill and confident and generally changed in a positive way after his year long vacation but since every moment that emphasizes his cool chill attitude makes me want to punch him i’m not 100% certain lol
like i generally take as read that guts leaving the hawks is one of those things that’s overall bad but had some positive effects, like guts being more confident and cool, since yk the moments that indicate that are things the target audience of dudes would generally agree is cool, like calmly grabbing casca’s tit while she’s yelling at him and then saying, ‘come with me’ in a nonchalant non-commital way, or like telling casca she’s too naked and distracting during the wyald fight, or constantly being a smartass dick during the competition, that kinda thing.
but then again since i generally argue that leaving the hawks was a bad decision, maybe those moments are actually meant to be off-putting. like i don’t really think so, if i was a betting person i’d place money on miura thinking they make guts cooler, but i kind of want to believe.
I dont agree with this tbh. Guts leaving the hawks was a good thing. One of the most difficult and traumatic experiences is gaining independence and discovering your own way i life. The hawks were a home for guts but learning to leave to find his own way was special for me. I used to think that him leaving was sort of “cool” and used to set the whole tough lone wolf trope, but because of how guts felt inferior to his peers, and especially griffith, leaving the hawks was the most endearing action he couldve done. Its not played for a trope or for a demographic but rather to show the journey of a man who wants to be someone he can love. Ik ur a hige guts x griffith fan and i see the obvious undertones and interactions but when i see how guts feels when he seew his own journey next to griffiths i cant blame him for leaving.
I respect your opinion and I don’t mean to reblog this just to be like ‘nah you’re wrong’ because like, I do think Miura was trying to convey both good and bad effects of Guts leaving. Like I said, though I personally think that Guts’ more confident and independent attitude is shown in insufferable ways, I feel like Miura intended it to be a positive change for him.
And in general the idea of someone leaving a place to be more independent is a perfectly valuable and potentially a very positive narrative depending on the circumstances, and I don’t want to suggest that if you found Guts’ decision to leave the Hawks to be valuable then you’re wrong, there are plenty of reasons to appreciate it.
But, because this is one of those readings that tends to inform a lot of my other posts and meta etc, I just want to kind of explain where I’m coming from and what I mean by “mistake.”
It’s not a mistake you can blame Guts for at all, because his reasons for leaving are perfectly understandable and sympathetic, but it’s a decision Guts made based on misinformation (from Griffith’s stupid speech) and his own issues – largely desperately wanting to be loved and respected and believing all too easily that he isn’t thanks to his fucked up childhood.
And like this is also something Griffith shoulders blame for, for being an emotionally obtuse idiot who doesn’t recognize his own feelings until he’s spent a year in a dungeon. But again, like Guts’ issues, I find this sympathetic and understandable too.
(And like, while yeah I obviously ship them lol, this isn’t necessarily shippy, it’s kind of just a fact of Berserk that it, and the Golden Age especially, revolves around Guts and Griffith’s relationship, platonic or otherwise. Guts chose to leave because he wanted to be Griffith’s friend – before overhearing the speech he didn’t feel inadequate at all.)
Basically it’s not a mistake in the sense that Guts should’ve known better or that Guts choosing to leave was stupid and reflects badly on him, it’s a mistake because if Guts and Griffith were less terrible at communication Guts wouldn’t’ve wanted to leave in the first place, and once he realizes that he left because of misinformation he feels a lot of regret.
I think I’m going to write a full post on this soon because it would be nice to have something to link back to when I casually throw the idea that Guts leaving was a mistake out there, because I know it’s actually pretty controversial in fandom as a whole. So if you’re interested in my further thoughts with more like, textual evidence lol, I’ll get on that, and if not then no worries and I’m more than happy to agree to disagree 🙂
I would love to see a post on this. I always love seeing different takes on berserk and i do understand where ur coming from and it would clear up ur opinion because ur right it does sound controversial at face value.
Awesome, in that case I’ll tag you when I post it. And ftr I get where you’re coming from too, like tbh I always find Guts’ speech about sparks and how his sword is a part of him really moving eg, and I don’t want to dismiss that side of Guts leaving the Hawks, just like, complicate it a bit lol.
yk i think guts is supposed to seem chill and confident and generally changed in a positive way after his year long vacation but since every moment that emphasizes his cool chill attitude makes me want to punch him i’m not 100% certain lol
like i generally take as read that guts leaving the hawks is one of those things that’s overall bad but had some positive effects, like guts being more confident and cool, since yk the moments that indicate that are things the target audience of dudes would generally agree is cool, like calmly grabbing casca’s tit while she’s yelling at him and then saying, ‘come with me’ in a nonchalant non-commital way, or like telling casca she’s too naked and distracting during the wyald fight, or constantly being a smartass dick during the competition, that kinda thing.
but then again since i generally argue that leaving the hawks was a bad decision, maybe those moments are actually meant to be off-putting. like i don’t really think so, if i was a betting person i’d place money on miura thinking they make guts cooler, but i kind of want to believe.
I dont agree with this tbh. Guts leaving the hawks was a good thing. One of the most difficult and traumatic experiences is gaining independence and discovering your own way i life. The hawks were a home for guts but learning to leave to find his own way was special for me. I used to think that him leaving was sort of “cool” and used to set the whole tough lone wolf trope, but because of how guts felt inferior to his peers, and especially griffith, leaving the hawks was the most endearing action he couldve done. Its not played for a trope or for a demographic but rather to show the journey of a man who wants to be someone he can love. Ik ur a hige guts x griffith fan and i see the obvious undertones and interactions but when i see how guts feels when he seew his own journey next to griffiths i cant blame him for leaving.
I respect your opinion and I don’t mean to reblog this just to be like ‘nah you’re wrong’ because like, I do think Miura was trying to convey both good and bad effects of Guts leaving. Like I said, though I personally think that Guts’ more confident and independent attitude is shown in insufferable ways, I feel like Miura intended it to be a positive change for him.
And in general the idea of someone leaving a place to be more independent is a perfectly valuable and potentially a very positive narrative depending on the circumstances, and I don’t want to suggest that if you found Guts’ decision to leave the Hawks to be valuable then you’re wrong, there are plenty of reasons to appreciate it.
But, because this is one of those readings that tends to inform a lot of my other posts and meta etc, I just want to kind of explain where I’m coming from and what I mean by “mistake.”
It’s not a mistake you can blame Guts for at all, because his reasons for leaving are perfectly understandable and sympathetic, but it’s a decision Guts made based on misinformation (from Griffith’s stupid speech) and his own issues – largely desperately wanting to be loved and respected and believing all too easily that he isn’t thanks to his fucked up childhood.
And like this is also something Griffith shoulders blame for, for being an emotionally obtuse idiot who doesn’t recognize his own feelings until he’s spent a year in a dungeon. But again, like Guts’ issues, I find this sympathetic and understandable too.
(And like, while yeah I obviously ship them lol, this isn’t necessarily shippy, it’s kind of just a fact of Berserk that it, and the Golden Age especially, revolves around Guts and Griffith’s relationship, platonic or otherwise. Guts chose to leave because he wanted to be Griffith’s friend – before overhearing the speech he didn’t feel inadequate at all.)
Basically it’s not a mistake in the sense that Guts should’ve known better or that Guts choosing to leave was stupid and reflects badly on him, it’s a mistake because if Guts and Griffith were less terrible at communication Guts wouldn’t’ve wanted to leave in the first place, and once he realizes that he left because of misinformation he feels a lot of regret.
I think I’m going to write a full post on this soon because it would be nice to have something to link back to when I casually throw the idea that Guts leaving was a mistake out there, because I know it’s actually pretty controversial in fandom as a whole. So if you’re interested in my further thoughts with more like, textual evidence lol, I’ll get on that, and if not then no worries and I’m more than happy to agree to disagree 🙂
that makes perfect sense. he has low self-esteem so he projects his feelings onto guts and kinda living the relationship vicariously.. i don’t think this was in any way good because he completely disregarded both guts and casca’s feelings tbh (and griffith’s). guts did the same thing, like you said, but i don’t think he did that to such a detrimental degree iirc. i still don’t see why cishets love him so much tbh. thanks for the detailed reply!
lol i’ll take any excuse to go on and on about something, ty for your reply + giving me an opening 🙂
Yeah I have a lot of mixed feelings about Judeau. I’m still fond of him and I kind of like that he fits the “tertiary friend who gives the protag wise advice” slot except that a lot of his advice is terrible and makes things worse because he has his own issues too. it gives him a nice little bit of dimension. But lol I still resent him a bit for being the resident het cheerleader, and he’s far from the super good bro who gives great advice that a lot of Berserk fandom treats him as.
Yea…but if he had been a wise, old guy knowing basically everything and explaining “the truth” to our characters it would have been less exciting since this guy would have been right.
Even though Judeau knew a great bunch of things, he was completely unaware of some things and was one of the main drivers for the eclipse. I am not sure if Guts would have started a relationship with Casca…and that the two people important to him were a “thing” played a significant role in Griffith s deeds….
Yeah absolutely. lol imo one great thing about the golden age was that no one had all the answers, no one was “right,” at least not consistently. Even Godo’s brief flashback appearance where he helped inspire Guts’ sword swinging dream by being a blacksmith was not shown as totally right, and he’s the archetypal wise old dude.
Yeah I think his heart was in the right place, it seems like he genuinely just wanted what was best for everyone even if his methods were a little… underhanded and dishonest. Like towards the end eg, he probably thought Griffith would be better off with him and his thieves than with Guts and Casca as well as vice versa (and if Guts and Casca stayed together while taking care of Griffith he might’ve even been right, bc lbr that would’ve been a shitshow lol.) He’s likeable, and fun, and he has some great moments, like telling Guts he’s sure he’ll find what he’s looking for with the Hawks. Ngl his death scene always makes me cry lol, I do def like him overall, in part because he makes mistakes too.
Also I wonder if there isn’t a subtle indication from Miura that Judeau and Casca should’ve gotten together instead of Guts and Casca, and it’s its own little sub-tragedy based on stupid self-esteem issues that they didn’t. The way during the Eclipse Judeau does his best to save her and defends her with his own life while Guts is up on the hand still trying to “save” Griffith lol feels kind of starkly telling. I don’t ship them myself, I like their friendship and I kind of wish Judeau hadn’t had a crush the whole time lol, but it fits into the whole missed opportunity vibe of the Golden Age.
It is kind of a shame that the Golden Age side characters got way less backstory and development than the current RPG group, but the current group has so much more time. Like 200+ chapters vs 70. I did love the little enriching hints we got about the Hawks though, like Judeau feeling inadequate as a jack of all trades, the hints that Corkus is bitter about his own lost dreams. I’d say ‘etc’ but actually that’s about it really. Wish we got more on Pippin too.
Holy moly, what have we even been doing for the last 200+ chapters?? As much as I love the rpg group, nothing beats the original Hawks for me.
I definitely think that the Golden Age was all about people missing what was right in front of them, and losing their chances, or screwing them up on purpose. I mean, it can’t just be Guts and Griffith in this crapsack world that do it.
You mentioned how during the eclipse Guts was focusing of Griffith while Judeau was focused on Casca. Got me thinking about how his final acts were to be a literal shield over her body, and how he fell from her arm as he died. I don’t have the scans, but it reminded me of how Guts and Casca always compare themselves to swords. A sword and shield go mighty well together.
Lmao right? It really puts it into perspective when you realize the Golden Age was less than 100 chapters and we’re on 354 now.
Yeah that really sums up the Golden Age in a nutshell lol. And Judeau’s thoughts at the end do include, “I missed my chance to say it,” which fits.
tbh good call with the sword/shield imagery. Like yeah he does literally use himself as a human shield against that one weird apostle, and then Casca leaps up and kills it with her sword. I could def see that being purposeful. Also like… Judeau is Casca’s last real human interaction with someone before she’s driven insane. I’d love to see that acknowledged when she wakes up tbh.
You found the image I was talking about! I already put it on the post itself, but the way he fell off her arm reminds me of how shields are worn on the arm and get dropped when they’re broken!
This chapter was pure badassery on so many levels. I really hate that basically every female character is subjected to assault tho. All of them. (Sadly, I guess it’s not so different from the world we live in.)
On a GriffGuts note, I wonder if the reason Guts focuses so much on casca’s assault is because it drives home for him what Griffith has become. Griffith being his singular focus and all.
Whereas in the last chapter that got released, Casca’s memories encapsulate the whole Eclipse.
Yeah it’s genuinely fantastic, badass and touching and emotional and then it ends… like that
tbh ia. It’s like the way Guts wasn’t angry at Griffith, just sad and regretful, even while all his friends were dying and he was being attacked by a hoard of monsters, up until the rape scene. In a way it makes sense for Guts to focus on that since it’s like, the source of his violent rage that keeps him going and keeps him wanting to kill Griffith/Femto, as opposed to the rest of the Eclipse which is probably more a source of guilt (”was I the one who drove you…?”)
the beast of darkness pretty much suggests that this is why Guts was keeping Casca with him, basically so he could brood. (As did Miura in one interview :/)
Idk I wish it wasn’t so utterly manpain-y, with Guts being so focused on something that didn’t even happen to him, to the detriment of the person it actually did happen to, just so he can stay angry. You’d think his missing arm would be enough of a reminder. But it is what it is, and at least it’s not really portrayed in a positive light I guess.
Ye, the manpain is rlly intense. Muira basically fridged her and Farnesca is my only solace. And the hope that she gets badass again and bitchslaps N.Griffith and Guts tbh.
Personally the way I read it is that Guts put Griffith above acts like that, and what he did to Casca is a display of how corrupted Femto is compared to HIS Griffith. Guts would have gladly given an arm for Griffith under any circumstances, but to see him attack Casca was unthinkable from original Griffith in Guts’ mind.
I definitely don’t agree with the fact that it happened in the narrative, and even less with how she was treated as a character afterwards. (I feel like I’d be more ok with her insanity if the assault had been left out.) But considering I don’t buy the idea that Guts and Casca were “meant to be together”, my only conclusion in terms of Guts’ character is that it demonstrated how far the Godhand had perverted the man he loved. I’m really crossing my fingers that the upcoming chapters don’t focus too much on that part of her narrative.
yeah pretty much agreed on all counts.
While Guts accepted that Griffith made the sacrifice and even seemed to understand to an extent, raping Casca was like a harsh dividing line, and I’m sure that was the whole point from a writing perspective. Griffith saved her from rape, Femto destroys her through it, contrasts, yadda yadda yadda.
tbh it’s very telling that while Guts’ feelings towards Femto/NeoGriff are “tainted” by his love for human Griffith – eg still wanting his attention, still can’t stand to be looked down on by him, forgets his urge to kill when NGriff sheds the evil exoskeleton, acts like he got dumped when NGriff flies away on Zodd, etc – his feelings towards human Griffith haven’t changed. He doesn’t think back on him and hate him, he only feels longing/regret/loneliness/guilt/love/friendship/etc when he thinks of him.
Like it really does seem to show that Guts hates Femto/NGriff because he’s not his Griffith. When he reminds him of his Griffith, ie, when NeoGriff shows up, he suddenly finds it a lot harder to hate him.
Yeah I think his heart was in the right place, it seems like he genuinely just wanted what was best for everyone even if his methods were a little… underhanded and dishonest. Like towards the end eg, he probably thought Griffith would be better off with him and his thieves than with Guts and Casca as well as vice versa (and if Guts and Casca stayed together while taking care of Griffith he might’ve even been right, bc lbr that would’ve been a shitshow lol.) He’s likeable, and fun, and he has some great moments, like telling Guts he’s sure he’ll find what he’s looking for with the Hawks. Ngl his death scene always makes me cry lol, I do def like him overall, in part because he makes mistakes too.
Also I wonder if there isn’t a subtle indication from Miura that Judeau and Casca should’ve gotten together instead of Guts and Casca, and it’s its own little sub-tragedy based on stupid self-esteem issues that they didn’t. The way during the Eclipse Judeau does his best to save her and defends her with his own life while Guts is up on the hand still trying to “save” Griffith lol feels kind of starkly telling. I don’t ship them myself, I like their friendship and I kind of wish Judeau hadn’t had a crush the whole time lol, but it fits into the whole missed opportunity vibe of the Golden Age.
It is kind of a shame that the Golden Age side characters got way less backstory and development than the current RPG group, but the current group has so much more time. Like 200+ chapters vs 70. I did love the little enriching hints we got about the Hawks though, like Judeau feeling inadequate as a jack of all trades, the hints that Corkus is bitter about his own lost dreams. I’d say ‘etc’ but actually that’s about it really. Wish we got more on Pippin too.
Holy moly, what have we even been doing for the last 200+ chapters?? As much as I love the rpg group, nothing beats the original Hawks for me.
I definitely think that the Golden Age was all about people missing what was right in front of them, and losing their chances, or screwing them up on purpose. I mean, it can’t just be Guts and Griffith in this crapsack world that do it.
You mentioned how during the eclipse Guts was focusing of Griffith while Judeau was focused on Casca. Got me thinking about how his final acts were to be a literal shield over her body, and how he fell from her arm as he died. I don’t have the scans, but it reminded me of how Guts and Casca always compare themselves to swords. A sword and shield go mighty well together.
Lmao right? It really puts it into perspective when you realize the Golden Age was less than 100 chapters and we’re on 354 now.
Yeah that really sums up the Golden Age in a nutshell lol. And Judeau’s thoughts at the end do include, “I missed my chance to say it,” which fits.
tbh good call with the sword/shield imagery. Like yeah he does literally use himself as a human shield against that one weird apostle, and then Casca leaps up and kills it with her sword. I could def see that being purposeful. Also like… Judeau is Casca’s last real human interaction with someone before she’s driven insane. I’d love to see that acknowledged when she wakes up tbh.
You found the image I was talking about! I already put it on the post itself, but the way he fell off her arm reminds me of how shields are worn on the arm and get dropped when they’re broken!
This chapter was pure badassery on so many levels. I really hate that basically every female character is subjected to assault tho. All of them. (Sadly, I guess it’s not so different from the world we live in.)
On a GriffGuts note, I wonder if the reason Guts focuses so much on casca’s assault is because it drives home for him what Griffith has become. Griffith being his singular focus and all.
Whereas in the last chapter that got released, Casca’s memories encapsulate the whole Eclipse.
Yeah it’s genuinely fantastic, badass and touching and emotional and then it ends… like that
tbh ia. It’s like the way Guts wasn’t angry at Griffith, just sad and regretful, even while all his friends were dying and he was being attacked by a hoard of monsters, up until the rape scene. In a way it makes sense for Guts to focus on that since it’s like, the source of his violent rage that keeps him going and keeps him wanting to kill Griffith/Femto, as opposed to the rest of the Eclipse which is probably more a source of guilt (”was I the one who drove you…?”)
the beast of darkness pretty much suggests that this is why Guts was keeping Casca with him, basically so he could brood. (As did Miura in one interview :/)
Idk I wish it wasn’t so utterly manpain-y, with Guts being so focused on something that didn’t even happen to him, to the detriment of the person it actually did happen to, just so he can stay angry. You’d think his missing arm would be enough of a reminder. But it is what it is, and at least it’s not really portrayed in a positive light I guess.
Yeah I think his heart was in the right place, it seems like he genuinely just wanted what was best for everyone even if his methods were a little… underhanded and dishonest. Like towards the end eg, he probably thought Griffith would be better off with him and his thieves than with Guts and Casca as well as vice versa (and if Guts and Casca stayed together while taking care of Griffith he might’ve even been right, bc lbr that would’ve been a shitshow lol.) He’s likeable, and fun, and he has some great moments, like telling Guts he’s sure he’ll find what he’s looking for with the Hawks. Ngl his death scene always makes me cry lol, I do def like him overall, in part because he makes mistakes too.
Also I wonder if there isn’t a subtle indication from Miura that Judeau and Casca should’ve gotten together instead of Guts and Casca, and it’s its own little sub-tragedy based on stupid self-esteem issues that they didn’t. The way during the Eclipse Judeau does his best to save her and defends her with his own life while Guts is up on the hand still trying to “save” Griffith lol feels kind of starkly telling. I don’t ship them myself, I like their friendship and I kind of wish Judeau hadn’t had a crush the whole time lol, but it fits into the whole missed opportunity vibe of the Golden Age.
It is kind of a shame that the Golden Age side characters got way less backstory and development than the current RPG group, but the current group has so much more time. Like 200+ chapters vs 70. I did love the little enriching hints we got about the Hawks though, like Judeau feeling inadequate as a jack of all trades, the hints that Corkus is bitter about his own lost dreams. I’d say ‘etc’ but actually that’s about it really. Wish we got more on Pippin too.
Holy moly, what have we even been doing for the last 200+ chapters?? As much as I love the rpg group, nothing beats the original Hawks for me.
I definitely think that the Golden Age was all about people missing what was right in front of them, and losing their chances, or screwing them up on purpose. I mean, it can’t just be Guts and Griffith in this crapsack world that do it.
You mentioned how during the eclipse Guts was focusing of Griffith while Judeau was focused on Casca. Got me thinking about how his final acts were to be a literal shield over her body, and how he fell from her arm as he died. I don’t have the scans, but it reminded me of how Guts and Casca always compare themselves to swords. A sword and shield go mighty well together.
Lmao right? It really puts it into perspective when you realize the Golden Age was less than 100 chapters and we’re on 354 now.
Yeah that really sums up the Golden Age in a nutshell lol. And Judeau’s thoughts at the end do include, “I missed my chance to say it,” which fits.
tbh good call with the sword/shield imagery. Like yeah he does literally use himself as a human shield against that one weird apostle, and then Casca leaps up and kills it with her sword. I could def see that being purposeful. Also like… Judeau is Casca’s last real human interaction with someone before she’s driven insane. I’d love to see that acknowledged when she wakes up tbh.
now i can’t stop looking for hands on shoulders but these are devastating ‘cause griffith is tiny
the fact that griffith is accepting guts’ comforting touch thoooooo
like there’s no special attention drawn to these panels or guts’ hand, but considering the emphasis on touches, particularly shoulder touches, i don’t think it’s an accident
same in the dungeon, with more emphasis:
resisting Guts’ comforting hand on his shoulder – his own vulnerability to his feelings for Guts – because Guts abandoned him, that vulnerability is why he’s been tortured for a year
immediately switching to acceptance when Guts expresses his feelings for Griffith in turn
Griffith lets himself love Guts even with all the vulnerability that brings, until he’s lead to believe it’s one sided and he’s about to be abandoned again
it’s because he’s weak and he couldn’t resist it if he tried
idk he couldn’t strangle guts but that didn’t stop him from placing his hand on his throat.
like the panels you posted aren’t exactly spotlighted as meaningful but if we were meant to see that Griffith was uncomfortable in Guts’ arms we’d probably see it in his expression or in some action. the fact that it’s so casual and matter-of-fact and not a moment of discomfort feels telling to me i guess.
ia that if griffith could resist he might (tho he pointedly didn’t resist the shoulder touch in Tombstone of Flame so idk) but if so then i’d say he’s using his own weakness as a convenient excuse to accept Guts’ comfort.
oh i was mostly just trying to be funny and basically saying that when guts gives him the slightest bit of attention griffith becomes unable to resist again because he’s so damn in love
oh lmao, yeah that went over my head. oh well i guess taking things seriously is a good excuse to write another three paragraphs about my griffguts feelings.
now i can’t stop looking for hands on shoulders but these are devastating ‘cause griffith is tiny
the fact that griffith is accepting guts’ comforting touch thoooooo
like there’s no special attention drawn to these panels or guts’ hand, but considering the emphasis on touches, particularly shoulder touches, i don’t think it’s an accident
same in the dungeon, with more emphasis:
resisting Guts’ comforting hand on his shoulder – his own vulnerability to his feelings for Guts – because Guts abandoned him, that vulnerability is why he’s been tortured for a year
immediately switching to acceptance when Guts expresses his feelings for Griffith in turn
Griffith lets himself love Guts even with all the vulnerability that brings, until he’s lead to believe it’s one sided and he’s about to be abandoned again
it’s because he’s weak and he couldn’t resist it if he tried
idk he couldn’t strangle guts but that didn’t stop him from placing his hand on his throat.
like the panels you posted aren’t exactly spotlighted as meaningful but if we were meant to see that Griffith was uncomfortable in Guts’ arms we’d probably see it in his expression or in some action. the fact that it’s so casual and matter-of-fact and not a moment of discomfort feels telling to me i guess.
ia that if griffith could resist he might (tho he pointedly didn’t resist the shoulder touch in Tombstone of Flame so idk) but if so then i’d say he’s using his own weakness as a convenient excuse to accept Guts’ comfort.
now i can’t stop looking for hands on shoulders but these are devastating ‘cause griffith is tiny
the fact that griffith is accepting guts’ comforting touch thoooooo
like there’s no special attention drawn to these panels or guts’ hand, but considering the emphasis on touches, particularly shoulder touches, i don’t think it’s an accident
same in the dungeon, with more emphasis:
resisting Guts’ comforting hand on his shoulder – his own vulnerability to his feelings for Guts – because Guts abandoned him, that vulnerability is why he’s been tortured for a year
immediately switching to acceptance when Guts expresses his feelings for Griffith in turn
Griffith lets himself love Guts even with all the vulnerability that brings, until he’s lead to believe it’s one sided and he’s about to be abandoned again
griffith thinks he’s cruel for letting someone – guts – in and hence dragging him through the dirt with him; guts thinks he’s cruel for /only/ letting guts in… i don’t have a conclusion but hmmmm
that’s a really good observation tbh
my guess is that it highlights how much they see what griffith is doing as dirty? guts like, let’s be honest, doesn’t really at all. griffith asks him to kill a man and he’s like pshh just order me like you always do 😉 hey why don’t you tell the rest of our pals about this?? meanwhile griffith thinks he’s a filthy monster
Yeah it shows how non judgemental Guts is about it, and that he expects everyone else to be similarly non-judgemental. Maybe indicates that Guts thinks Griffith is only keeping them in the dark for… convenience or whatever, and subtly shows that he doesn’t realize it’s because of shame. Griffith explains afterwards, sort of, in his prevaricating way (”they need only feel as though they’re rising up”). Idk but it’s another sign of the gulf of misunderstanding between them for sure.
ugh it just kills me how griffith comforted casca here, even though he must have been sick to his stomach as well
and then later. you know
agh a while ago I was going to post about how the fact that Griffith’s hand on Casca’s shoulder bookends this chapter, except the second time he is very clearly repressing his feelings to seem like a strong perfect person and reassure Casca, sheds a whole lot of light on how he was probably feeling the first time he put his hand on Casca’s shoulder in chapter 17 here.
and then I forgot and this reminded me and now I’m sad again.
@bthump i just wanna add that “i will decide the place where you die” can be read 2 ways: 1) i will tell you where to die and you will die there, and 2) you will not die until i’ve decided it’s the time and place for that
either way it’s a distancing tactic, yes, but i think most people read it as the first thing, which sounds creepy, instead of the second thing, which is just so clearly a hilariously bullshit way of saying “i won’t let you die”
like, considering the fact that griffith risked his own life to save guts and guts then confronted him about it, this is the perfect, cool-sounding cop-out. “i saved you because you’re my best soldier and you weren’t supposed to die yet. i’ll decide when it’s your time to die”
I actually hadn’t thought of that before! But damn you’re completely right, and it makes so much more sense to read it as the second when you read it as a continuation of him trying to justify saving Guts’ life. Fuck lol, I mean my point still works since yeah it is still a distancing tactic, and it’s still Griffith kind of owning the fact that he sends people to their deaths, but this is a much more natural way to read that part.
This started as an attempt to explain my take on why Griffith is so utterly dedicated to his dream, and then it evolved into a monster when I decided to apply that reading to the rest of Griffith’s narrative. This is basically an examination of the dream, and how Griffith’s relationship with Guts comes to not only take precedence over it, but functionally replace it.
Now, while this is essentially a Griffith character study, I’m coming at him from a very specific angle so this is by no means definitive or all-encompassing. There’s so much to say about Griffith, his role in the story, his characterization and motivation etc that I just can’t fit into the purview of this meta – like, hell, I don’t even talk about class issues lol – but hopefully this serves as a thorough exploration of the aspects I did choose to focus on.
And, of course, it goes without saying that this is just my own interpretation. I’ll make the best case I can, but at the end of the day so much of Griffith’s story is left in subtext that there’s plenty of room for other interpretations.
Also, I want to lead off with a warning/advertisement:
I fucking love
Griffith. I think he’s a
fantastic character with a ton of depth and humanity who gets reduced to
a two dimensional caricature in fandom way too often, I’m sympathetic towards him, and I take
it as read that he’s blatantly in love with Guts, and indeed, that his
narrative is almost entirely about being in love with Guts. I’m also writing this for a presumed audience of people who don’t need to be convinced first that Griffith is more complex than “conniving sociopath,” but if that’s your starting point you’re more than welcome to read anyway and see if anything I have to say resonates despite that.
Basically, if you’re into really really long, really gay character analyses, enjoy!
I’m ALL for this. Griffith was never a character I found much of an interest in honestly, which is weird for me considering I love “villains”. He just seemed so complex and at the same time boring that I never really wanted to put forth much effort into breaking down his character or motivations. He was always just there, like a background character in my mind. And some other analysises (not all I’ve seen some good ones) seemed either biased or are about just how terrible of a person he is. I’m really looking forward to this.
Thank you for your interest! Tbh Griffith as a character type was always going to be one of my faves, but without that immediate interest I can definitely see why it wouldn’t be worthwhile to delve into him as a character. There’s a lot going on under the surface but it’s so murky and subtextual. Hopefully I do a decent job sussing him out in the rest of this. I can’t promise I’m unbiased, but I try to keep everything rooted in the text at least lol.
that and the fact that he sold his body so less of his men (or children ..) would have to die, and then comforted casca when she was trying to comfort him
those are the two things that stand out in my mind and cement his personality as very giving, though it may not seem like it to some because he tries to cover it up with varying levels of success
“a dream is something a man must achieve for no one else’s sake but his own” or w/e
five chapters later: “if there’s something i can do for their sake, for the sake of the dead, that thing is to win.”
he so does try to cover it up lol, i was just writing about this earlier too (because I actually didn’t even think to address Griffith’s dream speech in my meta about Griffith’s dream… and had to go back and add it in. yeah)
but yeah I mean like NGriff becoming “the desired,” the achiever of humanity’s dream is such a good encapsulation of his human life. (also the fact that he became a monster first is a gr8 encapsulation of griffith’s distorted by self-loathing perception of his life.)
Also speaking of Casca and Griffith this is a great little underappreciated moment:
Casca moving defensively in front of Griffith and drawing her sword to protect him from Zodd, only for Griffith to tell her to run with everyone while he decides to personally be the one to leap directly into near certain death to try to save Guts.
This. This. This
Parallels. It’s always the parallels.
The look on her face when she realizes its because of Guts… She seems quite… sad?
Idk if you wanted an explanation or if you were just making an observation, but I’ll seize any opportunity to post this part lol.
i love these kinds of questions! but please prepare yourself because this is going to be long and incoherent
so, to be perfectly honest, i know this is a cop out but all griffith scenes are my favourite scenes?
if i had to pick a few that stand out the most, however, i love griffith & guts’ first and last duels so much
these panels especially, but also:
i also LOVE:
this whole entire thing. all of it, every panel, every word, i love it.
then there’s the entire sequence starting with him overhearing casca telling guts to leave again and ending with him sacrificing everyone. love all of that, especially: his suicide attempt which breaks my heart whenever i re-read it, the moment when guts is approaching him and he’s thinking “stay away!!!” and his thoughts leading up to the sacrifice, about how guts outshone his dream.
this obvious parallel
also, needless to say, i have a complicated relationship with his nightmare wherein he is in a lifesucking heterosexual marriage with casca .. lol.
another big scene for me is, obviously, the bthump scene. i love it so much. i love how he came to guts to check if he still had feelings. very subtle. and then he was like “ok sweet i don’t have feelings bye” and then he had a feeling. I LOVE IT.
OH and allllllll of those femto + black swordsman interactions from the nonnumerical chapters. kisses fingers like a chef.
those are the first few scenes that come to mind, honestly. but there’s a lot of other gems too, like his and guts’ very first meeting when he tells guts that he wants him, that moment when he shows guts the behelit smiling like a little kid, that time he was talking to guts about their duel and how fun it was and just looked really fond, every time he risked his life for guts and every time he lied about his reasons, that time he gave julius a dangerous smile (and every time he talked shit about the nobles), when he asked guts to do him the favour of killing julius, these two scenes god
the scene with casca in the lake, that moment when guts’ sword broke in the middle of their important fight and he looked like … idk what that emotion even was, probably fear? that moment he told gennon he meant nothing to him, god that scene when he sets the room with the queen inside on fire and takes off the ribbon tying his hair …… all of his little smiles and glances @ guts. all of his little 😮 moments.
i’m not fond of the fuck scene with charlotte for obvious reasons, but i do like how he was thinking about guts and also afterwards when he just … curls in on himself and starts crying. that destroyed me.
this isn’t a scene people talk about a lot but i love when he tells charlotte’s gross father off? he just knows … exactly which buttons to push. and we didn’t even know he had all this dirt on the king until that scene, i just love it so much
i love that moment when they find him in the torture chamber and he wakes up and sees guts. puts his hand on his neck, but then guts starts crying, and his hand slides down to guts’ instead. fuck me.
AND ok you already know about this ‘cause we’ve talked about it but:
this moment of clear, undeniable jealousy. love.
obviously i love his little private moment with guts in the carriage. i love neo-griffith’s mind-numbingly boring tea parties, and his talk with rickert. … like i said, i love pretty much any scene where griffith showed up in the manga lol.
if you ask me why … i apologise ’cause this isn’t going to be anything profound, really, but i just love him as a character, literally everything about him. looking at this array, i seem to prefer scenes where he loses control and shows some kind of intense emotion, generally directed towards guts. but i also love the scenes of clear emotional repression, be it him telling guts he doesn’t really have a reason for risking his life to save him, or him telling himself and everyone else that he doesn’t feel guilty for all the lives that were lost for his cause. i love his messy emotions, whether he tries to hide them or they take over him completely and cause him to make his disastrous decisions. i love his impulsivity, i love his jealousy, i love his guilt. i just love him so much.
i feel like i already know a few of your favourite scenes but still wbu? feel free to ramble @ me like i just did @ you
Yesss, ngl I asked because I’ve been craving some pure certified organic griffith positivity and I read this post with just a big grin on my face lol. so ty for the long and awesome answer ❤
Like, other than going ^^^^all of the above^^^^ I guess right now I really want to ramble about like… the genuinely good stuff. I never shut up about Griffith’s flaws, his self loathing, his guilt, his emotional repression, the way he lashes out in interesting yet horrifying ways when he can’t just repress his feelings, the sacrifice, etc…
But yk what despite how fucked up he is as a person he has a lot of good aspects that always get downplayed for the sake of villainizing him, and I want to talk about those.
Like dude wanted to create a socialist, non-discriminatory paradise in the middle ages? His goal was literally to become king so he would have the power to carve out a place where people’s bodies and lives wouldn’t be bought and sold. I’d side-eye the shit out of Miura for making that the antagonist’s motivation if it wasn’t for the fact that it’s consistently portrayed as a good thing. Still keeping my side-eye on hold tho for when we find out exactly where Miura’s going with Falconia.
And he walked the walk in addition to talking the talk. His second in command was the only woman we ever see fighting in an army in Berserk, and she joined him because he saved her from a noble who bought her. Then he got her, and a bunch of other former peasants, knighted. If Griffith had become king the normal way rather than taking the magical god route, the… idk military command. Head General? Whatever, the commander of his armies would’ve been Casca.
Like yeah there’s some ye olde sexism in the mix but that comes from every dude we see, including beloved ones like Guts and Judeau (especially Guts, yeesh).
He was a beloved commander for a reason. His strategies aren’t just brilliant, they’re a way of minimizing casualties as much as possible. Despite always having to project an image of perfection, he was able to be personable too, making the Hawks feel valued. He partied with them after victories, all he said to Casca when she was full of guilt for going into battle with debilitating cramps was “welcome back,” he got Casca to rescue Corkus from Guts and then came over and rescued Casca when that wasn’t enough, he had a personal recollection of the kid who died in the flashback who Casca didn’t know anything about, remembering the way the kid looked at him.
He hides the dark underside of his rise to power not just because he doesn’t want anyone (except Guts) to see it and judge him for it, but also because he doesn’t want the Hawks to have to worry about it.
Guts thinks it’s cruel to not let them in on the plan, but Griffith thinks it’d be cruel to burden them with the knowledge of some of the fucked up things getting them those knighthoods.
The way he says, “But for hundreds, thousands of lives to hang in the balance and myself alone not to be unclean…” which completely fails to acknowledge that his life is on the line exactly the same as everyone else’s since he leads his army at the front, but he thinks that doesn’t count, he has to do something extra basically as penance.
And like, sorry but that extra thing is literally selling himself to a child rapist, as a child, to prevent as many soldiers from dying in battle as possible. I’m like, so done with watching fandom downplay that at every turn. Also while I’m listing good deeds, personally murdering that dude.
How being in love with Guts makes him automatically do things from little stuff like asking Guts to assassinate Julius instead of ordering him to, to huge things like basically straight up dying for him w/ Zodd. I mean, Zodd won, if it wasn’t for fate Griffith would’ve died right there while running to Guts to grab his hand.
And this is after ordering the rest of the Hawks to retreat and running in alone to try to rescue Guts.
Also not just doing good things, how about being awesome? Like taking five thousand people and winning a battle against thirty thousand. Like the way it’s set up with Casca thinking that Griffith might be being reckless by volunteering because his rapist is head of that army, but it turns out that he knew he could win entirely because of his history with Gennon, basically using his predatory lust against him. Like burning a bunch of murder-plotting conservative nobles alive while doing this:
Like going through at least two days of torture without making a sound. And coming out the other side after a full year still sane because his feelings for Guts kept him going. And then saving everyone during the escape attempt despite being helpless and voiceless. Wanting desperately to be able to grab a sword and help Guts fight a giant terrifying monster.
I just love him so much and I talk about his stupidity and self loathing and emotional fucked up ness and how he succumbs to his flaws all the time and have been especially focusing on it recently due to this thing i’m procrastinating on still writing, but he has a lot of genuine virtues too and sometimes u just wanna sit back and be a Griffith apologist.
oh these panels makes me think of that interview(?) with miura where he says that nagais expressive linework was a huge inspiration to him and it obviously informs how he incorporates emotion into his work
YEAH absolutely
lol this exchange is so timely, I was just re-reading part of the Eclipse last night and this page just leapt out at me as pure Nagai:
like moreso than any other pissed off Guts I can recall off the top of my head, it kind of slapped me in the face with devilman vibes.
you know i wonder if at least one part of griffith’s heart bthumping here is the fact that zodd and guts are dueling, as opposed to just the fact that guts is there
for one, their duels should be very significant to him both because he won guts with their first one (and guts won him over: “that fight was enjoyable. that’s how fights should be.”) and because he lost guts with their last one (and that destroyed him)
but also, and i’m aware this is a bit of a stretch, but though griffith always believed in guts’ fighting ability he also never stopped worrying about him
i’m not saying he’s worried about guts here necessarily but he’s watching him fight, duel, something he used to do with him, something he used to watch him do a lot. if he remembers everything (except, i assume, how it felt?) … you know.
I totally agree! imo Guts vs Zodd here could echo a lot of significant moments in their relationship. Like Griffith’s first intrigued sight of him when he dives into danger to kill Bazuso, the first time they met Zodd and Griffith risked his life for Guts and couldn’t rationalize it afterwards, Griffith worrying and watching Guts from a distance while he fights Boscogne, watching the Wyald fight while removed from it and feeling isolated from Guts.
Like yeah I don’t think he’s feeling any of those things directly, but if we’re going to see his heart beating while Guts is around this is a v appropriate situation that reflects a lot of their past and makes it feel extra significant.
“You bled so much for me. These are wounds from the hundred man battle, right? Even the wound I gave you…”
“I too want a wound… that I can say you gave me.”
When it comes to Guts’ guilt issues surrounding Griffith’s tragic narrative, and the highly sexually charged nature of the scene where the Beast of Darkness suggests this, and the fact that the Guts and Casca sex scene is already chock full of references and parallels to Griffith, I’m feeling like this is a legit comparison, at least from Guts’ guilt-ridden and Griffith-obsessed point of view.
(brought to my attention by therainykitty here, ty! also s/o to this post)
Very nice and I think Guts wants to feel as hurt as Griffith does, with Guts trying to engage Griffith as an enemy. For Griffith to attack him, hurt him back anything to make Griffith feel towards him again.
But Griffith is burying his scars underneath that frozen heart (except Guts can still make it beat).
And for more scar comparisons because why not
Guts words to Casca “Nobody lies their way into a body with this many scars.”
Griffith buries his emotional pain pretending it doesn’t affect him but always still that sorrow and how he cares is shown with his scars
Guts leaving and the flashback to asking Guts is he a horrible person
Guts in danger and Griffith harming himself again (clenching his teeth so hard they bleed) because he can’t reach Guts to protect him
His suffering and the fracturing of his soul
And Femto the armor over Griffith’s scarred soul
Femto acts as the personification of Griffith’s suffering and the armor to protect Griffith’s wounded inner core.
So I guess it is Griffith’s body that express the scars in his soul but no one ever sees them. They are hidden from all but Casca (at least at first) and Guts.
i don’t wanna rb that post bc het sloppy makeouts but wrt guts not protesting to casca touching him
i mean, he does–until he wakes up and realises she’s a woman. that means her touch isn’t ~magical~ – it’s just that his trauma is specifically tied to men
so what’s more impressive than him not freaking out about a naked woman clinging to him is him not freaking out when griffith takes his head in his hands and brings his face intimately close to his own
he doesn’t protest, he doesn’t flinch away. he looks enchanted
“only your touch didn’t offend me” isn’t just a bullshit lie, it’s moot
why would her touch offend you? she’s a woman lol
tbh I feel like Miura started with one narrative before he had the idea of hooking Guts and Casca up and then tried to mildly retcon it to make it seem more romantic. But since he didn’t have future g*tsca in mind back then the only thing Guts’ nightmare and brief panic does is
a) remind us that he’s traumatized and it’s still affecting him
b) tell us that trauma is tied specifically to men
c) specifically highlight the way griffith totally bypasses it in the next chapter
like there’s no reason for that scene to exist except to make Griffith winning him in a duel with sexual stakes and then grabbing his face and saying, “now you belong to me” stand out as shockingly dazzling to guts instead of traumatic.
I honestly think Guts is kidding himself with Casca and denying his deeper feelings for Griffith. I find it hard to believe that a person he basically never got along with for years suddenly is his everything in a couple of months. Compared to Griffith whom after the three year time skip they seem joined at the hip. Things look to be going great until the fountain scene and Guts doesn’t feel good enough for Griffith (due to his own issues. Not Griffith’s).
Then you have Casca telling him about Gennon and the boy and Griffith self-harming and all that and is basically Griffith needs someone to be there for him, so cop on to yourself Guts (because for Guts, Griffith lets himself be vulnerable, he puts himself in danger for you). And through Casca, Guts figures out “hey Griffith does need someone to stand beside him like yeah I can be that person” but first I need a dream.
And when he returns to the Hawks a year after.Griffith is being tortured and for Guts everything crashes. Someone he loves, someone he cares for is going through hell and he can’t be with him. Guts can’t take Griffith out of that. He just settles for what little comfort Casca gives (and Casca settles for what comfort she can find in Guts). It must of been hell not only their own personal demons but just not being able to reach Griffith when he needed them the most. So they keep that comfort-seeking relationship going after Griffith gets out but well they are always testy around each other again.
Now after the eclipse Guts can’t reach Griffith in any way physically, spiritual,emotionally,nothing.(Just like he was powerless to reach him in torture and the eclipse)
And to me the whole healing Casca for Guts while great Casca gets her mind back, but it’s like I couldn’t save him, I couldn’t help Griffith get his mind back. Maybe I can save you.
Trying to assuage some guilt/remorse.
But again Guts continues to hurt the people around him.
Yeah! Have you ever noticed how every time Guts starts thinking of Casca as a romantic prospect it’s because Judeau is directly telling him to lol?
Also gr8 point – I’ve kind of wondered if Casca telling Guts all about Griffith’s vulnerabilities and how he needs him in the cave maybe partially inspired him to leave. Like, before hearing that he might’ve thought becoming Griffith’s friend was hopeless, but after hearing that he might’ve seen it as a distinct future possibility as long as he finds a dream first. You nicely put that into words!
i don’t wanna rb that post bc het sloppy makeouts but wrt guts not protesting to casca touching him
i mean, he does–until he wakes up and realises she’s a woman. that means her touch isn’t ~magical~ – it’s just that his trauma is specifically tied to men
so what’s more impressive than him not freaking out about a naked woman clinging to him is him not freaking out when griffith takes his head in his hands and brings his face intimately close to his own
he doesn’t protest, he doesn’t flinch away. he looks enchanted
“only your touch didn’t offend me” isn’t just a bullshit lie, it’s moot
why would her touch offend you? she’s a woman lol
tbh I feel like Miura started with one narrative before he had the idea of hooking Guts and Casca up and then tried to mildly retcon it to make it seem more romantic. But since he didn’t have future g*tsca in mind back then the only thing Guts’ nightmare and brief panic does is
a) remind us that he’s traumatized and it’s still affecting him
b) tell us that trauma is tied specifically to men
c) specifically highlight the way griffith totally bypasses it in the next chapter
like there’s no reason for that scene to exist except to make Griffith winning him in a duel with sexual stakes and then grabbing his face and saying, “now you belong to me” stand out as shockingly dazzling to guts instead of traumatic.
basically, except i’m a little more optimistic and i think that miura purposely had guts lie there
not super intentionally of course, i don’t think guts’ inner monologue was “let me conveniently blur the gay truth so i can sound romantic” or anything like that. but yeah. miura’s a really good writer and though he has introduced stupid plot elements like a forced heterosexual romance into berserk plenty of times, he has imo always managed to make it make some sort of sense, whether intentionally or not ig. and since i enjoy coming up with excuses as to why whatever we’re talking about was “totally his intention all along,” i see that lie there as fitting considering it happens during a scene where guts is using casca as a substitute for griffith
in a way, it makes their romance seem like a parody. which i enjoy
i don’t wanna rb that post bc het sloppy makeouts but wrt guts not protesting to casca touching him
i mean, he does–until he wakes up and realises she’s a woman. that means her touch isn’t ~magical~ – it’s just that his trauma is specifically tied to men
so what’s more impressive than him not freaking out about a naked woman clinging to him is him not freaking out when griffith takes his head in his hands and brings his face intimately close to his own
he doesn’t protest, he doesn’t flinch away. he looks enchanted
“only your touch didn’t offend me” isn’t just a bullshit lie, it’s moot
why would her touch offend you? she’s a woman lol
tbh I feel like Miura started with one narrative before he had the idea of hooking Guts and Casca up and then tried to mildly retcon it to make it seem more romantic. But since he didn’t have future g*tsca in mind back then the only thing Guts’ nightmare and brief panic does is
a) remind us that he’s traumatized and it’s still affecting him
b) tell us that trauma is tied specifically to men
c) specifically highlight the way griffith totally bypasses it in the next chapter
like there’s no reason for that scene to exist except to make Griffith winning him in a duel with sexual stakes and then grabbing his face and saying, “now you belong to me” stand out as shockingly dazzling to guts instead of traumatic.
this is a pretty glaring omission. we saw zodd and the king’s griffith dreams but not guts’, our protagonist with a “profound connection” to him???
i’m not saying guts’ canonical dreams about griffith are too gay and revealing for berserk’s general readership but that’s exactly what i’m saying
But that’s the thing, Guts probably didn’t have prophetic dreams about neo!Griffith because Femto/n!Griff is not what he desired. Everyone who dreamed of The White Hawk desired him for the sake of absolution or social change or w/e, Guts just wants back the dork he had naked water fights with.
good point tbh. idk I was kind of just assuming everyone in the world had them regardless of their personal desire for a saviour bc the ~collective desire~ was that strong, but this makes sense too, and it’s nicely angsty so I’m into it.
There are two important parallels during the waterfall scene, when Guts and Casca fight, then fuck.
The first is this parallel to Guts and Griffith’s second duel.
Casca is the new leader of the Hawks, replacing Griffith’s role. She
challenges and fights Guts when he returns, in a mirror of Griffith
challenging and fighting him before he leaves. Then she falls to her
knees and has a self-destructive
breakdown. The last time the leader of the Hawks had a breakdown after
fighting him, Guts walked away. The scenario has presented itself again,
and this time Guts makes a different choice, one that might have
changed everything a year ago: he comforts her.
Sex with Casca is Guts subconsciously (from a character perspective) or symbolically (from a narrative perspective) trying to fix past mistakes, imo.
Throughout the fight by the waterfall, Casca is screaming at him that he broke Griffith by leaving, that it’s his fault. This scene is all about Griffith and their feelings towards him. For Guts, it’s the beginning of his eventual revelation that leaving was a mistake because Griffith didn’t look down on him after all – because Griffith’s “no good without” him.
The fact that Guts lets Casca stab him as she screams this tells us that her words hit home and he feels guilty, even as he denies it. It’s a pattern of behaviour for Guts that we’ve seen before and will see again, eg, when he let the zombie child stab him in the second chapter because he blamed himself for her death, and then denied feeling responsible to Puck afterwards (”If you’re always worried about crushing the ants beneath you… you won’t be able to walk.”)
He represses that guilt and doesn’t manage to acknowledge his mistake until about five minutes before the Eclipse, unfortunately, but this is how we know he feels it regardless, and this is how we know it’s informing his choices now – specifically, his choice to comfort, kiss, and have sex with Casca.
Guts’ denial of guilt while clearly feeling it is reminiscent of another character too:
This is the second parallel, to Casca finding Griffith in the river.
Casca eventually yanks her sword out of Guts, admits to him that she’s romantically in love with Griffith, proceeds to list all the ways Griffith is wholly unavailable (he needs to marry Charlotte, Guts took the place she wanted at Griffith’s side, and now he may not even be alive), bequeaths Griffith to Guts, and tries to kill herself. Griffith Griffith Griffith – the lead-in to sex revolves around him. Guts thinking about how he abandoned him in the snow, Casca thinking about how Griffith doesn’t need her, and Guts beginning to realize that Griffith needed him.
So Guts saves her from her suicide attempt, then comforts her through sex.
And Casca does the same in return:
She couldn’t comfort Griffith, she couldn’t be Griffith’s “woman,” she couldn’t be be something indispensable to Griffith’s dream, but she can comfort Guts, she can have sex with Guts, she can help Guts achieve his dream.
The situations requiring her comfort are even v similar – Guts has just had a flashback to his rape, and Griffith was calling himself “unclean” after selling himself to a pedophilic rapist. Griffith buries his feelings and refuses to be comforted, but Guts pours his heart out to Casca and lets her hold him.
My point is that Guts and Casca having sex is not about the other for either of them – it’s about their respective relationships to Griffith. Guts is presented with a similar scenario to the morning he left the Hawks, and after being told by Casca that he fucked up then and broke Griffith, he chooses a different course of action this time, and comforts and has sex with Casca. Casca is presented with a similar scenario to finding Griffith in the river after Gennon, but instead of being shut out she’s able to comfort the man in emotional turmoil this time.
tl;dr they’re both on the rebound from Griffith here, giving to each other what they didn’t or couldn’t give to him, and there are deliberate visual and situational parallels to illustrate this.
This is what I have thought for years. Casca and Guts whole “relationship” came about because they are in love with the same man. Griffith. Every time they are together conversation turns towards Griffith and lets face it they were both most likely thinking of Griffith during the sex.
Btw I want to say thank you for this post.
In a fandom as vitriol as most of Berserk’s western “fans” are they don’t allow for any kind of insight or discussion like this. But when I read things like this post it reminds me that I wasn’t just fucking seeing things because I swear certain types of people had me believing I was crazy.(I guess that is what those people wanted me to think).
It is posts like yours that make me want to get right back into everything that I love about Berserk.
Edit: Oh yeah I just remembered the all these talk about scars
and how the beast say that Guts basically only holding on to Casca because she is the scar Griffith give him.
Kind of like all the scars Guts indirectly gave Griffith due to his time in torture.
A nice reminder of how Guts subconscious won’t let him forget and how he really doesn’t want to let go of Griffith.
Also Guts looks fucking board after he and Casca had sex
Not to mention he out right lies here
Because
and with Griffith
There is no shoving away or telling him to not to touch him (like with Casca).
So Guts is really forgetful about whose touch it is he didn’t mind or unless you know he is projecting on to Casca that he is talking/being with someone else, a particular someone else.
Oh man I know what you mean. I’ve written so much about my interpretation of Berserk by now and sometimes the rest of the fandom still makes me wonder if I’m just seeing things or making things up. That’s one reason it’s important to find like-minded people imo, especially in a fandom that can be as hostile as this one.
Luckily I’ve managed to find a good place on tumblr where I don’t really have to deal with the majority of the fandom that hates griffith and griffguts lol.
And ty for the addition! That point about the scars and the Beast of Darkness referring to Casca as the wound Griffith left him, like damn I never thought of that but holy shit it’s perfect and fits into that scar discussion between Guts and Casca like a puzzle piece.
And lol yeah, I’m not sure whether that’s Guts fudging the details or Miura conveniently forgetting that moment with Griffith, but either way Guts’ statement that Casca was the only one who could touch him is demonstratably false.
@bthump Oh I agree, I think Guts’ dreams on Griffith after the eclipse would be a mix of longing,sorrow,mourning,regret, happiness,joy and dreaming of the good times as well as things he would have liked happen, anything romantic or otherwise.But I like to think Guts never gets a damn moment of rest without his dreams always going back to Griffith one way or the other.
lol poor guts, fighting ghosts all night, having confusing + painful dreams about griffith all morning and walking all afternoon, for months.
i’m fully on board with this concept.
Hehe No rest for the wicked 😉
Love Guts but sometimes I want to shake him by the shoulders and go “What were you thinking in leaving, you could have had it all”. Except it was because he wanted just that with Griffith,he left to try and get it. Silly Guts, Silly Griffith they really need to just hug it out and allow for each other to heal.
“They could’ve had it all” is a perfect summary of berserk lol. sigh.
i feel like the double standard stems partially from the fact that guts “feels bad” about what he did to casca
but griffith would fucking feel bad too if he had the ability to feel anything lol. he is literally the king of feeling bad about fucked up shit he’s done, please
griffith:
berserk fans: i am shocked, shocked and absolutely appalled that neogriffith said he has no regrets
griffith:
those same berserk fans: griffith has clearly been an evil unfeeling sociopathic monster from the beginning
i keep trying to read this chapter while keeping at the forefront of my mind that this is casca’s dreamscape. so like. assuming mr miura wants to write with that perspective, things should play out like how casca’s internalized it, right?
which means what it comes down to is griffith/femto and guts, both having hurt her so deeply, are still entirely caught up in each other before they give a shit about her
like you’d think otherwise birdy femto would like easily be able to destroy the casket. but like. once dogguts was freed and the chain binding him to it was broken, it was all bird vs hound. sure u can take this as guts occupying him while farny and schierke get down to business, but lets be real here.
casca’s ultimately being saved (hopefully) by FARNESE (and schierke) and that feels Good
but also the emphasis in this chapter on dog guts being in berserker mode now makes me nervous, because if this IS all written from casca’s internalization, that puts casca, farnese, and schierke at risk. from like, GUTS. thats making me nervous.
after reading the translation there was more of an emphasis on guts just fucking off to fight femto while being a potential danger to the coffin in berserk mode than i was expecting, while schierke and farnese do the actual important shit
tbh i’m glad the risk guts poses is being acknowledged bc imo it’s infinitely better than casca’s dreamscape just portraying him as the noble protector, which i was worried about
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