Tag: convo

xoxoannimuxoxo:

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also new low-key horrifying detail i just noticed while grabbing that panel from chapter 39, which i can’t believe i hadn’t noticed before when like i read this stupid chapter a million times for my giant griffith meta

p sure the thing he’s holding that isn’t pliers is a fucking speculum

Wait but didn’t you recognize the speculum in previous posts?

lmao god this post must’ve gotten flagged and unflagged or w/e tumblr’s doing, i just checked and yeah it’s on the first page of my blog but it’s actually from 7 months ago.

what do you think of griffith smiling when he hears julius and adonis are dead? i see lots of ppl use it as proof that he was ~evil~ all along

berserksideblog:

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Fucking love that moment lol.

image

glorious.

Like, this is a moment of Griffith’s inner darkness shining through. It’s perfect because it comes right after his long dream speech to Charlotte, as he’s learning that he’s achieved a particularly horrible step on the path to his dream. His dream just caused an innocent kid to be killed, and he’s smiling about it.

It’s a very strong way to equate dreams to darkness early on – and it’s great foreshadowing for Guts’ own descent too. This speech that ends with Griffith smiling over the death of a child – that causes that smile – is the very thing that inspires Guts to leave to pursue his own dream! Which ends up being the Black Swordsman arc.

image

Like compare Griffith’s evil smile to Black Swordsman Guts’ slasher smiles as he’s, yk, fighting “stronger and stronger opponents,” ie pursuing his own dream. Dreams are terrible all around for everyone and I love it.

This is also part of Griffith’s set up that’s very soon knocked down in a subversion of the reader’s expectations. Like I’ve talked about how Griffith’s narrative begins with an image and eventually peels that away to the truth – we start with Femto, then we get early larger-than-life knight in shining armour Griffith who would do anything for his dream, here w/ the assassination we get the darker aspects of that emphasized, and then only five chapters later we get our first full pull-back of the curtain style reveal of the real Griffith, in Casca’s flashback.

Compare Griffith smiling when a child dies on the path to his dream up there to:

image

and

image
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It’s Griffith burying his guilt – getting much better at burying it through consistent practice lol – and demonstrating his willingness to do so in order to achieve his dream, which, ironically, he’s pursuing because of that guilt. It’s perfect.

I think I’ve phrased it before as like, after learning about Griffith’s dead child related guilt issues in Casca’s flashback shortly after, that smile when he finds out Adonis is dead can only mean one of two things:

either in the intervening years he’s changed so fundamentally that he no longer has those guilt issues, and therefore Casca’s flashback chapters are functionally meaningless and unnecessary to an almost comedic extent.

or it means he’s successfully buried his guilt so thoroughly in this moment as he’s pontificating to Charlotte about his dream that his reaction is pleased – he’s kind of like, becoming the mask, doing that good a job of convincing himself it’s all necessary for the sake of his dream.

And we see Griffith’s guilt issues crop up again in Tombstone of Flame
and again when Ubik’s convincing him to make the sacrifice, soooo we
know it’s not option one lol.

idk it’s a great example of the fucked up duality that comes from living in denial and eventually leads to choosing to become a monster because you already see yourself as one, basically, and it’s something I absolutely love about Griffith’s character.

tl;dr griffith isn’t evil, he’s interesting.

the end of this post also gets into my take on this scene, and it’s probably better said there lol.

also this post kind of illuminates more of my thinking wrt dark sides in berserk

Is it possible also that on one level he’s smiling specifically because Guts killed a child for him? Because he can take that as pretty strong evidence that Guts is loyal to him and more importantly won’t turn away from Griffith’s dark side or judge him for his darker actions? Like, on top of everything else that’s happening in his fluffy head in that moment.

Huh, interesting idea, I never thought of it that way before.

I’ve gotta give this a solid maybe, because I could see an argument either way. Like, I guess I don’t think it would be an intended reading on Miura’s part, mostly because of how completely sinister and creepy that smile is lol. Like I feel that if Miura wanted to convey a sense of Griffith being relieved in a way by Guts going the extra mile and killing a kid, his smile might seem more like… emotionally complex? Kind of tender?

I’m feeling a little deprived now because I’m imagining Griffith smiling in a more fond way rather than an evil villain way after hearing the news and I’m really loving that idea lol.

Anyway regardless of potential authorial intent, I really like this suggestion, in part because of how emotionally vulnerable and insecure he is in Tombstone of Flame, after another round of comparatively justified assassinations. I like the idea of Griffith maybe wanting to believe that Guts killing Adonis means he’s ride or die for him and won’t judge him for what he does to get to the throne, maybe letting that knowledge make him a little more secure in his relationship with Guts between Promrose and Tombstone, but still being terrified that it’s like, a really fucked-up example of Griffith dragging Guts down with him, and something that makes Guts want to run.

It adds another little layer to the rug being pulled out from under him when Guts does leave. Another action to add to his own self-loathing – it’s not that Guts killed a kid for Griffith, maybe indicating that they share a certain darkness, it’s that Griffith caused him to kill a kid, Griffith dragged him into the darkness, and Guts presumably hates him for it.

(Also there is something absolutely delightful about Guts hating himself after killing Adonis and seeing himself as a monster and unworthy of Griffith’s friendship, even as it makes Griffith feel more secure, more able to open up to Guts, and then later makes Griffith feel more like a monster dragging Guts down. Like, it fits right into the rest of their giant misunderstanding, and it’s the kind of fucked up scenario I live for.)

what would you say to someone arguing that griffith sacrificing guts is proof that in the end he cared more about his dream than he did about guts + that fact he had to sacrifice the hawks too means guts wasn’t that important to him after all?

freewilllife:

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I’d say that argument is directly and unambiguously contradicted over and over again in the story, including by Griffith himself.

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And like, literally the last thing Griffith thinks before sacrificing Guts is that Guts is more important than his dream. That’s why he’s sacrificing him. “You’re the only one who made me forget my dream.”

The main point of the Golden Age is to hammer home the concept that Guts is more important to Griffith than the dream, and it does it over and over and over lol. Everything revolves around that fact. And the sacrifice is a really clever (imo) culmination of that theme, not a weird last-minute contradiction of it.

Also I might try to add a quick explanation of my reading of the dream, ie it’s a defense mechanism/way for Griffith to escape his feelings, both guilt and the feelings for Guts that make him vulnerable and essentially destroyed his life, “the life of the person you loved the most and hated the most! you gave it to us so that you could bury your fragile human heart!” all that jazz. Which explains why Griffith chooses his dream over Guts even though he cares about Guts more (because he cares about him more). But idk if I could manage that without writing an essay, or more likely, linking one I’ve already written lol.

Wrt the second bit, idk what the fact that he had to sacrifice the other Hawks too has to do with it, it’s pretty clear to me that Godhand sacrifices are bigger and more epic than apostle sacrifices, but Guts still gets the spotlight even though there’s 30-40 others in the group. He’s the one Griffith’s last thoughts are directed to, he’s the one Slan singles out as a particularly excellent sacrifice, he’s the one Zodd directed his “prophecy” to and even makes sure to save so he can be sacrificed later (when he threw him a sword during the battle of Doldrey), while Rosine and the Count and Wyald killed a bunch of Hawks before the Eclipse without causing any issues. He’s the one Skull Knight singles out to give a warning to. 

I like that the rest of the Hawks are included because it proves that Griffith does in fact care very much about all of them. I mean Casca’s flashback already proved that, but yk, it never hurts to underline Griffith’s capacity for caring about others, because Griffith himself downplays it as much as possible lol, to say nothing about the fandom. But I don’t think it detracts from Guts as the most important sacrifice either. He’s still above and beyond. He’s the one who caused Griffith’s behelit-opening despair, and he’s the one Griffith sacrifices to escape that despair.

Idk man, the sacrifice is like half the reason I ship griffguts, so I definitely don’t think it downplays or diminishes Griffith’s feelings for Guts in any way, imo it emphasizes how they’re front and centre as Griffith’s number one priority and central motivation in an immensely satisfying way.

Yup! Guts is so important mainly because he is the one person that was able to get behind Griffith´s defense mechanisms…

I think that Guts own fragility also plays a role in it…Guts doesn´t approach anybody…but soon he found himself being drawn to Griffith, but he also fought that urge…making him appear in Griffith´s eyes as somebody special…somebody who fought not just against the “perfect image” of Griffith, but also wished to be near the person…They were comrades at the beginning…before Promerose…

Then he succumbed to the image of Griffith…but for Griffith himself…nothing had changed…

On the other hand…Guts did perceive Griffith as a person of higher standing, that is clear when he says to Griffith, he should just order him to go and
kill that person when Griffith wished to ask him on a more personal
level…, simply due to his abilities…Griffith was oblivious to his own feelings for Guts (romantically or not…Guts was important for him)

The relationship is so fascinating because it is neither entirely fire nor water, but both…just at different times.

Yeah totally! It’s one of those relationships that could’ve been perfect for them, but they didn’t quite manage to set aside their false perceptions of themselves and each other in time, and that’s what ruined everything. I like how you put it, both fire and water but at different times. They’re fundamentally compatible but they miss out on that ultimate connection because they each prioritize the wrong thing at the wrong moments.

Like I maintain that if Guts had never heard the Promrose Hall speech, Tombstone of Flame would’ve been the scene that sealed the deal. Guts seeing Griffith’s vulnerabilities and being put in a position where his reassurance is what Griffith needs, demonstrating how human Griffith really is and how necessary Guts is to him. And Guts being able to be there for him and provide that reassurance.

But yk Guts overheard the stupid Promrose Hall speech, took it to heart, and prioritized dreams instead of human connection.

what are the things you like and dislike about the ’97 anime and the films?

freewilllife:

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ty for asking, i’m just gonna write a few long lists lol

Keep reading

It´s interesting that you liked the movies…I prefer the anime every time. There is more flesh to the bone, while Griffith seems to be a cold-hearted guy in the movies…Also their relationship ( between Guts and Griffith) isn´t explored so nicely.

That is why I disliked the movies immensely.

i prefer the anime overall too for sure, but i can still enjoy the movies despite their massive failings lol. my expectations are already p low for any berserk adaptation i guess, especially a film adaptation which by necessity is always going to have to cut stuff, which makes it easier to enjoy the positive aspects.

morgiah:

I’ve been wanting to write my own analysis of Locus for a
while, but I figured I’d wait for the guidebook to come out and potentially
give me interesting new info on him. Now, since one of those has happened, I
might as well make the post!

My goal is to highlight a great character that gets
overlooked and misinterpreted a lot, understandably since Berserk has so many characters, but also because people tend to be biased against the ones on Griffith’s side and simplify them.

This will touch on guidebook content only

for

a bit, specifically
my problems with it, then go right back to the manga for an overview of Locus’
scenes and context for my interpretation of him. Since it’s very text and image
heavy, it’s going under a cut. Enjoy, and feel free to add stuff, as I’m always open to discussion!

Keep reading

like i said b4 i love all of this, but in particular the way you talked about the apostles and their relationship to griffith was super like, intriguing and sad. it makes me wish we saw other apostles join ganeshka in rebelling.

and like describing locus as kind of rationalizing that demon instinct to himself. like he’s maybe one of the lucky ones because due to his ideals he would’ve joined griffith anyway, but it’s still kind of quietly messed up that he doesn’t really get a choice.

and even ganeshka at the end got that pre-death moment of fulfillment when griffith came to kill him.

and also while it is a literal like instinctive, irresistable attraction that affects the apostles deeply, it’s also a symbol of human connection in general, i’d say. well, love. It’s an echo of Guts and Griffith’s relationship, a lot of that torch in the darkness stuff in the conviction arc leads into it. it’s another example of yk that whole true light, people shining in other people’s eyes stuff we get a lot of. and now you’ve got me thinking about possible implications and stuff lol. people embracing that feeling, rebelling against it, changing their lives because of it, destroying their lives, wanting to better themselves and live up to that feeling or wanting to escape it entirely, etc, and how that could be echoed in the apostles.

Idk like now I really want to see more apostle variety in how they respond to griffith in particular.

also from this angle it’s extra fitting that the new band of the hawk is made up of apostles.

bthump:

suddenly had the realization that we didn’t really get to see much of Griffith post-torture. Like yeah, he was there, we saw him, we got a great monologue about how in love with Guts he is, but what I mean is that like, all his trauma and all the pre-eclipse emotional devastation revolves around his permanent injuries rather than, yk like, ptsd.

We aren’t shown at all how the fact of being tortured constantly for a year might have traumatized him. Like everyone’s fucked up by the fact that he’s no longer physically capable of leading the Hawks, but like, even if he was, would he have been emotionally capable?

I mean a year of torture is huge, for any other character that would be the defining event of a narrative, whether he could physically recover or not. But Miura just kind of bypasses it entirely to focus on his physical dependency and his feelings for Guts. And I mean I love those feelings, I’m not complaining about the focus on that, but the lack of trauma wrt a year of experiencing extreme pain is kind of conspicuous.

Idk it feels like the torture was just kind of Miura’s convenient lead-in to the Eclipse and way to destroy Griffith’s dream, and it feels a little unfortunately shallow overall. Like he could’ve even just had a reference or two to how being tortured for a year might have affected him – like say Ubik using it to help convince him to make the sacrifice: doesn’t being an incorporeal being who can’t feel pain sound p tempting right now?

Also relatedly, consider this:

NeoGriffith isn’t just Golden Age Griffith transformed into a demon transformed into a mysterious wildcard. NeoGriffith is Golden Age Griffith + a year of torture transformed into a demon transformed into a wildcard. Like his “base” isn’t the Griffith we came to know and love over however many chapters of the Golden Age we got before Guts left, his base is, theoretically, an incredibly traumatized version of that Griffith we know.

Idk I just suddenly found myself wishing for more emotional/psychological exploration of the effects of that year of torture, and it made me wonder about NeoGriffith’s memories of being human. I feel like there’s potential there. I feel like there’s some thematic follow-through, along the lines of him being “beyond the reach of man” and Ganeshka’s empty threats, but some hints of emotional follow through would be v interesting.

#i’m torn on this bc you’re right but also#griffith’s like ONLY concern ever being guts is. my everything fsdjkfjkfjkhsdf#like the implications of this are so wild homeboy was being tortured for a year and ALL he thought about constantly. was guts#how much he loved and hated him#and THAT was what kept him like mostly sane and just. pulled out of the experience enough to not get scarred mentally#i GUESS?????????????#like ITS WILD 

you’re so right.

honestly this is actually like a best of both words kind of thing because the canon switching focus to ptsd would have diminished some of the focus on his feelings for Guts, and I absolutely don’t want that lol, because that is seriously just, everything. “now he’s the sole sustenance keeping me alive” like holy fuck I wouldn’t trade a thing for that.

like keeping the narrative on his feelings for Guts vs the dream by focusing on how Griffith only thinks about Guts after losing both was the right choice for the story even if it might not be the most realistic possible reaction lol.

but it’s definitely something I kind of want to keep in mind when it comes to like, fic/headcanons/just thinking about characterization etc, bc the more realistic aspects of being tortured for a year are still worth exploring imo.

(griffith hate anon) yeah the post said griffith is a misogynist bc his promrose hall speech is masculine in language, eg “a man must come upon another precious thing (…) to accomplish it for him, for himself”, “to me a friend (…) would determine and pursue his own reason to live” etc. which apparently means he thinks women can’t have dreams just duties and they can’t be his friend/equal lmfao (this is dumb as it is to me but also iirc in the jap/og version he uses gender neutral terms??)

chaoticgaygriffith:

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Ohhh right.

Huh now I’m actually curious if that speech is gender neutral in Japanese, because honestly the focus on men in that speech did seem like… pretty typical of Berserk in general lol. Like Miura really elevates same-gender relationships over opposite-sex relationships which are almost always romantic by default, and generally treated as lesser, or as stepping stones to that most important relationship (eg nina leaving with a dude so she can one day feel worthy of being luca’s friend) and the speech fits that pattern perfectly, so I always assumed it was deliberately gendered – not so much as a reflection on Griffith (tho again in the context of being repressed but desiring that all-important relationship with a man specifically… I’m still okay with it) but bc of Miura’s own biases.

But it’d be nice if it was actually gender neutral bc the focus on men men men, especially that first “but for a man he must first come upon one other precious thing” or w/e the line was, was pretty annoying.

sorry to bring bad news but that convo was anything but gender neutral. like, griffith started it by mentioning that charlotte asked him why /men/ love spilling blood so much so the men vs women divide was there from start to finish

actually the official translation was completely consistent with the original in terms of levels of gendering:

(男, otoko, officially translated as “man/men”)

(者, mono, officially translated as “one”)

(人, hito, officially translated as “people” and then 男, otoko, “man/men” again)

and then griffith ends the conversation like “sorry that must have been a boring topic for a lady (女性, josei)”

so like yeah japanese is a mostly gender neutral language in that its verbs and adjectives are not inflected by gender etc. but that doesn’t mean that all japanese conversations are completely gender neutral. far from it actually

Thank you! Yeah like I said, the way this convo is gendered fits the story to me and imo still reflects more on Miura than Griffith, but like, it doesn’t not fit Griffith imo. It still serves my interpretation of him so I’m cool w/ this.

Also yeah very good point about the abbreviation, ty for mentioning it. JP is definitely preferable if you’re going to shorten the word “japanese,” even if it’s just intended as shorthand and not a slur.

chaoticgaygriffith:

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Anon who sent me the Griffith-hate ask, I accidentally deleted your second message while trying to delete a different one lol, sorry about that. Once again I hope you see this and sorry about the lack of notif again.

But basically what I wanted to say is that yeah sure that “warming a man is a woman’s duty” bit is misogynist (and I think you mentioned the Promrose Hall speech too? as another example the person you’re hatereading gave?), but yk, so is Judeau’s “she’s our woman and we want her back” statement while rescuing Casca, so is 90% of everything Guts says to her ever, and so is 90% of the narrative voice honestly.

Idk man this is another instance where I’d say if they’re going to judge other fans for liking something w/ offensive elements, they should probably just put down Berserk and find something else to enjoy.

not to mention how that particular statement coming from griffith smells suspiciously of like heteronormativity and intense repression moreso than i think it says anything about how griffith sees women

how griffith sees women is clear from the fact that he didn’t rescue casca, he gave her a sword to rescue herself, and then let her join his band of mercenaries. imo anyway

ia.

yk i was going to say something like, “in fairness I wouldn’t use it as an argument against ppl saying that line makes Griffith misogynist bc that’s giving Miura way too much credit” but lol I’m actually torn because it’s so easy to ascribe that line to repression, especially because, like you say, it contradicts what we’re later shown and told about what Griffith thinks women are capable of, and it’s at odds with his general existence in the GA narrative as the progressive dude who scares the conservatives lol.

So either it’s a deliberate contrast to show that Griffith has a particular blind spot when it comes to physical intimacy between people, which also fits in nicely with the fact that he has trauma related to same sex desire and Casca lays all that out at the same time she tells Guts that she admires Griffith because he threw her a sword and gave her a blanket and generally treated her with respect, and expresses her jealousy of Guts because of Griffith’s feelings for him. Like, basically Casca’s flashback ties everything together in a neat little repression bow.

OR it’s a mildly ooc moment because Miura needed some kind of plot contrivance to give Casca a reason to hate Guts and potentially to get her naked in bed with him for the sake of future sex, if he was thinking along those lines this early.

I still wouldn’t use it to try to shut someone down in an argument I guess lol, but I mean, I would say “okay fair enough but here’s how I take that line and why” and consider that a fairly strong interpretation.

Reading the dark horse berserk translation for the first time and I’m cringing so hard at those ultra edgy backside cover descriptions (the vol.6 one also seems to imply that charlotte’s attraction to griffith is mutual? ew) and the pop culture references (“groovy”,”you shall not pass” etc.). Berserk truly attracts the worst crowd and it baffles me because it’s anything but a macho manga.

chaoticgaygriffith:

this is actually extra funny because the original japanese summary for vol. 6 doesn’t mention charlotte at all and (apart from the boring “it’s the middle ages and there’s war” stuff) just says that 1) guts thought the band of the hawk and griffith himself could become his “place of belonging” (lol) and also that 2) guts had never experienced such trust and kindness before (.. but shit’s about to go down, ofc)

bthump:

lol you know i’ve never actually read most of them, i always just skip past. tho i just checked out volume 6′s and yeah lol @ growing attraction between the king’s daughter and griffith. like it doesn’t really surprise me that the summaries are aimed at a straight dude demographic + emphasize the macho manly action/horror, but still, that’s p egregious.

but i gotta say, using the phrase ‘callow beauty’ to describe griffith is kinda interesting. i’m so used to seeing everything about him described as calculating and machiavellian that it’s almost refreshing to see a summary of part of berserk that paints griffith as earnest and naive lol, even if it’s completely inaccurate.

also i kind of assumed they’re translated from the japanese covers instead of dark horse writing their own summaries but maybe they are straight from dark horse if they’re including like lotr references lol. or maybe it’s just creative license with translating.

本編の主人公・ガッツも本来一匹狼的な剣士ながら、自らの居場所を探し、「鷹の団」とグリフィスこそは、その居場所になると思っていた。

「不死のゾッド」との死闘で傷ついたガッツにねぎらいの言葉をかけるグリフィス。これまでの人生にはなかった信頼とやさしさにふれたガッツだが！？

aw man don’t tell me the original summaries are actually relevant to the story lol

guess we got ripped off

I’m in love with that fanart of Femto holding Guys’ broken sword. Would be so neat to have a broken sword come back sometime, like when his sword broke in the battle of Doldrey. Thoughts?

a-girl-named-chester:

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yeah i was also super into that fanart. probs not the artist’s intention but made me think of casca holding guts’ sword after he left lol

mm on the subject of broken swords in general, ng ia,l i like the idea of the dragonslayer breaking

like if guts dies that would be an appropriate af prelude to it. a nice subtle rebuke of living your life by the sword.

actually it could also be a gr8 prelude to guts sorting out his feelings properly. you know like how i say that i want to believe guts’ current sidequest is a distraction from his conflicted feelings towards revenge/griffith/etc and what he should actually be doing is trying to untangle the emotional snarl that happens when your “true light” is also your nemesis lol. well the point is guts’ sword shatting could be a nice symbol of his distractions failing him and leaving him no choice but to confront his own feelings. maybe say something.

like it would go nicely with a third duel that has a strong emotional core

This is all great and I’m sorry I don’t have anything intelligent to add to it, but imagine his sword breaking during a third duel bc NGriff and/or Femto is “the absolute”.

Like the Griff/Femto breaking the sword that gets uncomfortably close to striking him, and then having to deal with the possibly-not-so-frozen heart issue, bc suddenly Guts is v vulnerable and killable.

NICE

griffith’s brain suddenly scrambling for an excuse not to kill him lol.

long game: decides to keep him locked up in his cellar dungeon, won’t stop visiting and talking to him to guts’ consternation

eventually something gives and gay conversations happen

freewilllife:

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@freewilllife I’m c/ping this bc that post is really long to reblog imo lol

I half-wonder if this is an issue with Miura writing some of Berserk
while depressed lol, considering how utterly cynical the Conviction arc
is.

I think this is the case.Depending on the real life issues of the author…and yes I think it somehow is fitting…

Because
sometimes a relationship even an unequal one is better than being
alone, however it can turn out worse if the dependent state doesn´t
develop…

Somehow I think ( I know what a  thought…most
Griffith/Guts fans do know that I suppose) that Griffith and Guts had a
dependency on each other that could have turned into a nice
relationship, but fate and their own insufficient communication skills
prevented it.

Guts wished to be the equal of Griffith…he
wished to acquire it…The way he chose was…It would have not been bad if
he had somehow come to another realisation than committing murder is his
“dream” ( That is just my priority maybe?).

Casca on the other
hand wished to maintain an unequal relationship at all cost…she wished
to be near Griffith, later Guts. It is depicted as if Casca only wished
to be Griffith´s sword since she wished to stay in his shadow…Whereas
Guts wished to obtain an own dream in order to be his equal…

Yeah there’s something to be said for Guts and Casca’s (and Charlotte’s) respective reactions to hearing Griffith’s dream speech. Even if it was a stupid speech and Guts’ decision was misguided, he’s still the only one who was like, well I’d better go out and achieve something so I can be his bff.

And it’s also very telling that Guts invited Casca along on his dream adventure – it shows that Guts is not thinking of her as an equal, he’s thinking of her as support for him, the way she was support for Griffith, rather than someone who could achieve her own dream and become an equal w/ him and Griffith.

(This probably says more about how Miura sees romantic (het) relationships as opposed to All-Important Bonds Between Men, but yk.)

Like imo the whole notion of dreams + equals is stupid as fuck, but it’s what Guts is basing his life around at that point and Casca just doesn’t figure in as a potential equal as far as he’s concerned.

Also of course I completely agree that Guts and Griffith’s relationship could’ve been exactly what they both needed, and could’ve been (and was for a time) a hugely positive influence on both of them, but fate and their own issues interfered and ruined it. Like I don’t think they were ever not equals – regardless of their stupid arbitrary standards, their feelings for each other made them equals, and I s2g the water fight is symbolic of that fact.

Like, not literally but symbolically, Griffith won the first fight, Guts won the second – the waterfight. So when Guts won a third – the second duel – it fucked up the balance and resulted in Griffith losing everything, and demonstrated that Guts was leaving based on a false premise.

(also lmao yeah the dream Guts landed on is kind of hilarious in how terrible it is. i love that you describe it as ‘committing murder’ bc it’s not exactly far off)

Like I don’t think they were ever not equals – regardless of their
stupid arbitrary standards, their feelings for each other made them
equals, and I s2g the water fight is symbolic of that fact.

Yeah…When you express it like this. I mean that would mean that equal, mutual relationships would just be possible between men…I don´t mean that you said that, but the narrative seems to point to such a belief. Or maybe men are supposed to have “a woman”, but the “real relationship” is just with their comrade(s)?

Since Casca is treated by both men as a woman, a mutual, equal relationship doesn´t seem to be possible….I don´t know what that is supposed to mean…As if the sex would determine a persons every character and dreams…

Yeah honestly that is the vibe I get from Berserk. I mean honestly that’s the vibe I get from a lot of media in general. I mean, that’s the vibe I get from society lmao. Relationships between men and women are for sex and for the dude’s self-esteem and sense of completion as a man, relationships between men are the meaningful ones with nuance and intrigue and significance, that reflect upon them as individuals. And relationships between women barely exist.

Obviously there are exceptions, but let’s be real here, this is just how relationships are portrayed in media most of the time due to misogyny, and Berserk is… well the main relationships are no exception. To Miura’s credit some of the side relationships between women are interesting + significant (eg Jill and Rosine, Nina and Luca, can’t really say Farnese and Casca yet but there’s potential there), and Farnese and Serpico have an interesting relationship by these standards. Though the fact that it’s non-romantic is probably related.

@freewilllife I’m c/ping this bc that post is really long to reblog imo lol

I half-wonder if this is an issue with Miura writing some of Berserk
while depressed lol, considering how utterly cynical the Conviction arc
is.

I think this is the case.Depending on the real life issues of the author…and yes I think it somehow is fitting…

Because
sometimes a relationship even an unequal one is better than being
alone, however it can turn out worse if the dependent state doesn´t
develop…

Somehow I think ( I know what a  thought…most
Griffith/Guts fans do know that I suppose) that Griffith and Guts had a
dependency on each other that could have turned into a nice
relationship, but fate and their own insufficient communication skills
prevented it.

Guts wished to be the equal of Griffith…he
wished to acquire it…The way he chose was…It would have not been bad if
he had somehow come to another realisation than committing murder is his
“dream” ( That is just my priority maybe?).

Casca on the other
hand wished to maintain an unequal relationship at all cost…she wished
to be near Griffith, later Guts. It is depicted as if Casca only wished
to be Griffith´s sword since she wished to stay in his shadow…Whereas
Guts wished to obtain an own dream in order to be his equal…

Yeah there’s something to be said for Guts and Casca’s (and Charlotte’s) respective reactions to hearing Griffith’s dream speech. Even if it was a stupid speech and Guts’ decision was misguided, he’s still the only one who was like, well I’d better go out and achieve something so I can be his bff.

And it’s also very telling that Guts invited Casca along on his dream adventure – it shows that Guts is not thinking of her as an equal, he’s thinking of her as support for him, the way she was support for Griffith, rather than someone who could achieve her own dream and become an equal w/ him and Griffith.

(This probably says more about how Miura sees romantic (het) relationships as opposed to All-Important Bonds Between Men, but yk.)

Like imo the whole notion of dreams + equals is stupid as fuck, but it’s what Guts is basing his life around at that point and Casca just doesn’t figure in as a potential equal as far as he’s concerned.

Also of course I completely agree that Guts and Griffith’s relationship could’ve been exactly what they both needed, and could’ve been (and was for a time) a hugely positive influence on both of them, but fate and their own issues interfered and ruined it. Like I don’t think they were ever not equals – regardless of their stupid arbitrary standards, their feelings for each other made them equals, and I s2g the water fight is symbolic of that fact.

Like, not literally but symbolically, Griffith won the first fight, Guts won the second – the waterfight. So when Guts won a third – the second duel – it fucked up the balance and resulted in Griffith losing everything, and demonstrated that Guts was leaving based on a false premise.

(also lmao yeah the dream Guts landed on is kind of hilarious in how terrible it is. i love that you describe it as ‘committing murder’ bc it’s not exactly far off)

chaoticgaygriffith:

bthump:

xiyyh
replied to your post “miura is really good at drawing facial expressions and there’s this…”

i’ve always thought it looked like guts wanted to kiss him here too lmao … and like … ha i know it’s completely impossible but look at griffs face tho. he’s like “NOW?? now guts? really?” then the behelit opens cause griffs just “OH /NOW/ YOU’RE GAY?”

hmm lol it’s likely total crap but it’s quite an interesting thing to ponder. cause imo miura is/was preettttyyy clear in his portrayal of expressional intent�� i don’t want to allow myself to believe this but to me it rly looks like that lmao
this is hot on the heels of guts fully
accepting his role in griffith’s (insert everything here) … i can only
imagine what would’ve happened if guts had an opportunity to say
something to him. he is probably at a loss for words, and all that
emotional buildup is trying to escape through his eyes lol .. god, griff
has no idea why guts is so emotional right here now that i think of it
🤔🤔🤔 guts showing emotions for him during this breakdown is a very
plausible thing to push him over the edge 😮

i like it lol i think i’ll keep it

good content

ok for real the way i see griffith’s moment of despair being guts’ touch is that it’s griffith’s final moment of understanding that he is never gonna get unfucked by his feelings. he desperately, desperately needs guts and there’s no possibility of living without him anymore. if guts left, griffith would mentally waste away like in his nightmare, if guts stayed griffith would exist entirely for his presence.

so like the way griffith shifted from wanting to strangle guts to holding his hand in the torture chamber when guts started crying for him, when guts touches him with that emotion on his face griffith is like, fuck i can’t hate him, i can’t separate myself, and the behelit opens.

i mean more powerfully than i’ve written lol, but that’s like, the gist imo.

so basically i completely agree.

ALSO wrt the possibility of Guts wanting to kiss him, I’m just gonna say:

idk Guts what did you do last time someone attempted suicide in front of you?

parallels everywhere.

i’m just gonna say recently when i was collecting panels of guts looking at griffith for my stupid joke post i thought about that exact panel and how it looks really fucking weird and how guts is way too close to griffith’s face and how i didn’t understand why or what he was even planning to do at that point

the thought of a kiss never occurred to me somehow but you know what? tbh.

alternatively THIS was the moment where guts was going to stop pretending that he wasn’t the reason all this happened to griffith and start apologising for it like he should have long ago. but unfortunately before that could happen griffith had his breakdown and, well, you know

press his forehead against the hawk mask and break down and cry while throwing out vague but heartfelt apologies

is the image that popped into my head

also wonder if guts would’ve transitioned to ‘i’m sorry’s if the torturer hadn’t interrupted them while they were holding hands and provided a handy distraction from his burgeoning guilt.

Re: griffith’s torture chamber monologue do you happen to know what’s the original japanese word they translated as “hunger”? I wonder if it has any particular connotation in japanese

chaoticgaygriffith:

bthump:

I do not, but this is a good question and one I’m also curious about. I can say that the anime replaced it with “love” (whether the word itself changed or the translation, idk) so it wouldn’t surprise me if it sounds just as suggestive in japanese as in english, or more so.

@chaoticgaygriffith no pressure to answer this, but do you have any insight on the word? (i’m sure you know exactly the page we’re talking about but just in case, chapter 49)

And actually while I’m wondering about this I’ve always been curious, is it the same word Ganeshka uses on this page? (chapter 282)

the word used is 飢餓感 (きがかん／kigakan) which can mean either hunger literally or hunger as in a strong desire/wish for something

and seeing as how griffith was listing emotions here, moreso than physical sensations (although some emotions–like pain, or you could say even all of them ig–are at the same time physical sensations), i would argue that he meant the latter

though it’s probably unclear on purpose, or it’s like clever wordplay of sorts since he’s literally in pain and starved and also additionally emotionally in pain and starved

and no sadly it’s not the same word ganishka used (he used 飢え渇く／うえかわく／uekawaku) but i don’t think that means there’s no parallel to be drawn here

tyvm for the response! sounds like it basically has the same connotation of saying you feel hunger while thinking about someone in english.

i def don’t think he meant literal hunger since he’s listing feelings specifically for guts, but i like the idea that it could be deliberate wordplay (along with pain) to yk compare the torture to being without guts/his feelings for guts. which would be very fitting imo.

cut for people who don’t want to see discussion of monster sex lol

@chaoticgaygriffith​ said:

#oh man come to think of it this is WHY his apostles didn’t get to have an orgy with him yet#this is so unfair to me specifically#i love griffith’s ‘sexualized untouchability’ ngl but then there’s something so alluring about#the idea of ngriff having sensual bonding sessions with his monsters yknow what i mean

i feel like there’s still room for this though! like this is one of those concepts i keep coming back to and i always envision it as neogriffith using sex as a way to keep the apostles in line and not preying on humanity, yk like, one taste of yr god and you realize that humans just aren’t worth risking getting kicked out of falconia for

except it’s actually completely unnecessary and more low-key a convoluted ott expression of his self-destructive streak while telling himself it’s just another rung on the ladder to his utopia dream, because griffith is a dramatic disaster in all incarnations

or you want it less fucked up and weirdly angsty then maybe it actually is just part of how he keeps them tame (a la Ganeshka’s “if he touches me I’ll sacrifice all -”) and he’s lowkey into it. or he lets his loyal generals gang bang him as a reward bc they’re apostles and apostles respond better to base lust than bags of gold, and in this scenario he’s getting fucked from a position of power as a show of generosity and knows he can’t be truly harmed bc fate, so it’s still a contrast to sex when he was human

chaoticgaygriffith:

chaoticgaygriffith:

chaoticgaygriffith:

look at guts trying his damnest to be casual with griffith and make him feel even a little bit better about his situation (and also to distract himself from his guilt)

i’m honestly willing to think this wasn’t just a stupid, slightly insensitive naive moment from him but, in fact, an actual pathetic attempt at re-establishing their intimacy which he fucked up by leaving

he doesn’t look hurt when griffith kinda sorta refuses (i.e. changes the subject) but he’s still in the trying to act casual/make him feel better/distract himself mode

# i feel like griffith asking for his armour instead of taking off the mask kinda marks a switch for guts from the attempt at intimacy # and beginnings of real acceptance of griffith’s like… vulnerable humanity and the fact that he isn’t a god # to kinda following griffith’s lead and piling on more denial lol # like guts is a dumbass but he almost got it right here

ia i just think the elephant in the room is too big for guts to try to be this casual to start off? like it’s so transparent? and i get that what went down isn’t something he can just dive into without prepping either of them, especially considering the consequences it had for griffith and the guilt he feels over that, but like the way he handled it (following griffith’s lead like you said and all that) they didn’t get to talk about it* at all, which is imo so much worse

*of course it would have been one-sided bc griffith can’t talk but you know, better than nothing

tbh yeah true actually, at this point Guts falling to pieces and just screaming some real genuine words like the rambling guilt ridden monologue that’s been occasionally running through his head for a few days would probably be a step in the right direction more so than more dancing around everything

yk I think the number one reason Griffith had to lose his tongue, narratively, like you were talking about the other day, is because in the lake when Guts was running towards him if he could talk he would’ve finally broken and said everything. like I think to that point he would’ve kept repressing and not actually started the relevant conversation, but there is a breaking point when it would’ve come out then

but Guts, who could talk, never reached that breaking point

eastern-lycanthrope:

bthump:

I think there’s a strong argument to be made that, rather than being
depicted as burgeoning true love ruined by the Eclipse for the
sake of extra tragedy, Guts and Casca getting together is depicted as a mistake from the start.

Keep reading

This is really cool and all but, if Guts didn’t love Casca in the true sense of the word, why did he travel half the world to rehabilitate her?

Well canonically there are a few alternative motives suggested:

That’s the darkest one. Incidentally it’s also the reason Miura gave for not killing Casca off – because Casca keeps Guts angry and prevents him from fully moving on – so it’s not just the Hound spinning his wheels, it’s a legit factor.

There’s also making up for past mistakes:

Longing for a piece of the good old days:

Which I suggest because almost every time Guts thinks of the old Casca it’s as a Hawk commander, rather than as a lover. Plus his insistence on “forcing” Casca’s sanity back despite warnings suggests to me it’s not really selfless on Guts’ part.

And honestly I think partially it’s because:

Prior to NGriff’s dismissal Guts still planned to go after him:

Erika suggests making the cave homier and staying with Casca, so Casca will be content and won’t run off again. Guts is like, yeah that’s true, and then:

Then he goes into his “the instant I saw him, I’d forgotten my urge to kill” internal monologue, raging at himself for his lack of desire to kill Griffith (”and that can’t be!”)

He’s still planning to go after him again, but then NGriff completely refuses to even give him the time of day, mysteriously saves Casca, and fucks off, and that’s when Guts decides to stick with Casca this time.

So imo it’s also partially because “I’d forgotten my urge to kill” + NGriff “deserting” him = losing his drive for revenge. Now he’s emotionally capable of trying to move on, so he’s seizing on that because revenge was a big self-destructive mess and he totally failed in his goal of either killing Femto or getting his attention, and Godo + Rickert etc all kept hammering it into his head that he’s better off taking care of the last remnant of the Hawks.

And bc Griffith’s apparently successfully moved on from him, so he wants to move on from Griffith and he’s focusing on Casca to do so.

I mean if you ship Guts and Casca and think love is Guts’ strongest motivator then go for it, it’s also one potential explanation, and maybe it’ll end up unambiguously confirmed as true love, but I honestly don’t get the impression that Guts is in love with her at any point myself. I think Guts’ actions make perfect sense even if romantic love isn’t a genuine factor, and some of his actions make very little sense if he’s truly in love with her (like leaving her in a cave for two years and then needing to debate with himself before he actually decides to take a time out from revenge and rescue her in the conviction arc.)

Like I think he’d make the same choice to go to Elfhelm if his relationship with her had remained platonic the whole time, or if it was Judeau who survived but lost his sanity, etc.

ninjabelle:

bthump:

Oh actually I do have one thing I can add about NeoGriffith, that I’ve been kind of thinking for a while but haven’t posted because it’s potentially controversial lol

But I think you could make an argument that NeoGriffith is… Griffith. As though transforming from Femto back into a flesh and blood body returned his whole range of emotions as well, basically if NGriff has the same emotional and psychological make-up of human Griffith.

Like, imo he is exactly what Griffith would be if:

  • he talked to god and god told him he’s not responsible for anything and everything he chooses to do is the correct fate-sanctioned thing to happen and he’s basically just a pawn
  • he spent a few years as a demonic embodiment of the dark side of himself and humanity, with the rest of his humanity stripped away
  • while he was that demon, he committed an unforgiveable and unjustifiable act of evil for no reason but spite
  • he is removed from the rest of humanity because he has another level of awareness/partially exists on another metaphysical plane
  • he made the choice to sacrifice everyone he loves both to achieve his dream and to cut out his heart because his feelings for guts ruined his life and sent him into suicidal despair

Like, basically NeoGriffith as Griffith in deep, deep, deep denial lmao, and finding it really easy to stay in denial because god gave him a thumbs up and he’s extra detached from his human emotions due to being a godlike entity with intimate knowledge of fate/the astral plane/his place in the world/etc.

I say this as someone who genuinely believes that human Griffith was more or less a good person. But I still think it would absolutely be in character for a Griffith who remembers being Femto to tell Guts he regrets nothing and then leave to do his thing.

So in this way you could say that NeoGriffith is the extreme fantasy story version of a dude who deliberately detaches himself from his own emotions for the sake of achieving a goal.

But to be clear I don’t think this is actually the case in canon.

I think NGriff probably actually has magically dampened emotions due to the sacrifice, and due to having magically transformed a few times most of human Griffith is genuinely lost, like we see him losing pieces of himself, and I don’t think he got those pieces back.

But like, I think NGriff kind of works on another level as not just the embodiment of the image Griffith portrayed, but how he maintained it, ie, by denying all his feelings. And I find the idea of NGriff as Griffith-in-extreme-denial really like… interesting and fun lol, in a headcanon way.

@kanade1111

@bthump whew it’s been a while since ive talked berserk w/you but i had to reply cause this. this is so much more than a hc to me because i’ve always felt it HAD to be (at least semi) canon that neogriff HAS feeling but that he chooses to bury/ignore them instead.

‘it seems i’m finally free’ MY ASS.

femto was the emotionally distant one, or at least the ‘complete monster’ version of griffith that (could) truly rise above his mortal feelings and he still was acting out of spite over guts and casca and all that hurt he had to endure (partly/MOSTLY over them) when he was still human.

it blows my mind when people argue griffith now has no feelings when the whole driving force of the entire golden age and after when everything went to shit was because of the sheer depth of his emotions for guts because let’s be real that’s all we’re here for) and the fact that he tried (in vain) to bury them- which then caused them to come out later in uglier ways.

(there’s that quote by Freud right…)

“Unexpressed emotions will never die. They are buried alive and will come forth later in uglier ways.”
     

AKA berserk: a summary.

I agree 100% with neogriff being in denial tho, like wouldn’t he love it to be free of his obsession with guts? wouldn’t the old griffith who had his heart more or less cut to pieces over his doomed love for guts give anything to be free of those feeling so he could pursue that dream of his that killed thousands? OF COURSE HE WOULD. but that’s not the reality of it. not even now that he’s gained this new body and his new kingdom.

like there is no doubt in my mind that consciously or subconsciously everything neogriff does or will do plot-wise is not going to at some point be overshadowed by his eternal longing for guts.

and anyone who disagrees can fight me.

If he did lose parts of himself that’s only right, like a dark reflection of guts who continuously tries to rid himself of whatever’s left of his love for griffith that could stand in the way of him absolutely destroying him. (i mean- counting the parts before the happy boat trip from hell. like- when things were still, yknow, good.)

and yeah maybe there is ancient demon magic sealing griff’s heart from unwanted emotions that could stand in the way of HIM achieving HIS goals but like- didn’t it throb tho- bthump– when he saw guts again? even if it’s at 0.01% capacity I’LL TAKE IT. It’s enough, even if it’s a sorry remnant of everything there used to be i’m sure eventually it’ll be enough to fuck up all his plans, i mean with his invulnerability now honestly what else could cripple neogriff now other than his heart itself? SO POETIC.

(also i remember when ppl used to send you song recs?? they were so good man i made an entire playlist. here’s another one: say it right by nelly furtado ‘oh you don’t mean nothing at all to me’ ugh so perfect for this little piece of meta, i listened to it on repeat typing this lmao)

Oh yeah I mean like, I 100% believe that NeoGriffith still has some emotion lol, I’d be willing to bet real money that we’re headed straight to a reveal that he’s not nearly as over Guts as he wants to be. But I think that canonically he’s somewhere between “Griffith in turbo denial mode” and “totally emotionless shell.”

Like, dude is going to do something irrational when Guts shows up again. That’s just how narratives work man, it’s gotta happen. I’ll join you in that fight lol. So I completely agree with you.

Also ty for the rec, it totally works for me. and lol ikwym the recs ppl sent me made my berserk playlist like twice as long, it’s gr8.

griffithsgaymom:

tbf i think zodd would be capable of being romantic wrt griffithbut it’s obviously not the same since he’s actively placing griffith in a pedastal and only sees him as a divine being or really hot if this is modern au lmao. on the other hand he would absolutely fuck griffith hard on his hands and knees every time, no exceptions.

suddenly i’m considering a modern au where the cool apostles are all part of a rebound disaster sex tour after griffith and guts break up

imo

zodd is a stoic service top type (and ia definitely puts him on a pedestal)

locus is more the lovey dovey romantic one who thinks they’re dating after one night

idk why but i feel like grunbeld would turn griffith down

raksas is an actually scary sadist type but griffith returns multiple times for reasons he refuses to examine

irvine is casual chill hookups once a month

actually this could also be canon

chaoticgaygriffith:

bthump:

chaoticgaygriffith:

bthump:

@raseng0th I erred on the side of not reblogging your post just because I don’t want a giant unblockable slur on my blog lol, but yeah ia with the other commenters, I’ve seen that translation referred to a lot, mainly in the context of translators adding slurs which aren’t there in the original, so I assume the homophobia is a fan addition.

Here’s the official translation if you’re interested and don’t have it handy:

image

in the original he says てめェらバケモン共 which basically means “you (fucking) monsters,” 

てめェら being the male, vulgar plural version of “you,” and バケモン共 being the plural of “monster”

lmao seriously? i was at least kind of assuming the word used might be one that’s sometimes aimed derisively at lgbt people in particular (yk kind of the way “freaks” is in english, where it doesn’t automatically have that connotation but maybe moreso than something super generic like “asshole” would) so yk it’d be an offensive reach-y translation but not completely invented.

guess not, yikes

(i wonder if the context of ganeshka just having asked if guts is one of griffith’s captains has anything to do with that. like an attempt to cram in a no-homo)

@raseng0th there’s a solid answer for you

to be fair idk if this word is used against lgbt people in japan, it might be?? but it’s otherwise a pretty standard word for monsters and generally creatures (yōkai) who have undergone a transformation in japanese mythology (known also as obake). so the only thing that really stands out to me here is that guts is being rude

and god i wouldn’t be surprised if you were right about that lol

oh hm yeah if it’s used for monsters specifically then i could see that being the case, i was assuming it was a v generic intensifier you could tack onto anything

but still if it’s related to monsters and guts is currently talking about monsters then come the fuck on scanlators

chaoticgaygriffith:

bthump:

@raseng0th I erred on the side of not reblogging your post just because I don’t want a giant unblockable slur on my blog lol, but yeah ia with the other commenters, I’ve seen that translation referred to a lot, mainly in the context of translators adding slurs which aren’t there in the original, so I assume the homophobia is a fan addition.

Here’s the official translation if you’re interested and don’t have it handy:

image

in the original he says てめェらバケモン共 which basically means “you (fucking) monsters,” 

てめェら being the male, vulgar plural version of “you,” and バケモン共 being the plural of “monster”

lmao seriously? i was at least kind of assuming the word used might be one that’s sometimes aimed derisively at lgbt people in particular (yk kind of the way “freaks” is in english, where it doesn’t automatically have that connotation but maybe moreso than something super generic like “asshole” would) so yk it’d be an offensive reach-y translation but not completely invented.

guess not, yikes

(i wonder if the context of ganeshka just having asked if guts is one of griffith’s captains has anything to do with that. like an attempt to cram in a no-homo)

@raseng0th there’s a solid answer for you

@raseng0th I erred on the side of not reblogging your post just because I don’t want a giant unblockable slur on my blog lol, but yeah ia with the other commenters, I’ve seen that translation referred to a lot, mainly in the context of translators adding slurs which aren’t there in the original, so I assume the homophobia is a fan addition.

Here’s the official translation if you’re interested and don’t have it handy:

image

bscully:

Volume 16:

12 volumes later:

We yet have to see keeping his own promise to himself:

I think that is fulfilling his promise to himself. I always saw that statement of Guts’ as ominous, especially considering the pointed shot of the behelit in the full thing.

image

He is what he is, and what he is is a dude getting a little too monstrous for comfort. His inner beast is part of who he is, and Guts reasserting his revenge quest “I will make my way to him” strengthens it.

very similar to this from the black swordsman arc:

image
image

“You and I got nothin in common” is blatant denial, immediately undercut by Guts continuing on his monstrous revenge quest. He’ll do it with his own flesh and blood, but that doesn’t actually make him much different than the revenge-obsessed ghosts trying to possess him.

chaoticgaygriffith:

chaoticgaygriffith:

there’s something to be said about how this turns into a “men vs women” type of conversation where griffith takes men’s side with his bullshit dream spiel and pretends like it’s this profound thing women will never understand

and by that i mean that it comes off as trying too hard, the same way him talking about what a ‘friend’ is to him comes off as trying too hard. before i was a little hesitant to believe that griffith feels forced into masculine roles rather than choosing to take them bc it’s the fastest way to achieving what he’s trying to achieve, but after re-examining this scene i think i feel a little differently about that

#other ppl’s meta #totally it’s posturing – more for himself than charlotte too #the image that goes with the dream which is (how does this always fit so perfectly) an attempt at a heteronormative masculine ideal #the men are like this stuff fits that so well as does charlotte suggesting ‘family or a sweetheart’ which ofc sums up what griffith #is torn between (‘family’ if you don’t want to be saccharine and include the rest of the hawks he sacrifices) and what guts ends up #abandoning for /his/ dream

@bthump what you said here, “more for himself than charlotte,” that’s exactly what i mean, somehow it didn’t register to me, until today, that the part of this where he puts up a masculine facade is ALSO for himself, and not just for charlotte. you know, when i think @yesgabsstuff and i talked about how griffith would be more feminine without all this bullshit weighing on him, i said i didn’t think his choice to present and act more masculine was one he made out of fear. and i still think that, to an extent, but there’s no denying that he felt forced into that masculine role bc …………… it’s so tightly woven together with his dream. and since it’s something he has to do for the sake of his dream, then fear also has to be involved, even if in a sort of roundabout way. that is to say, i don’t think griffith is afraid of like, getting punched or called a faggot if he wears a dress or w/e. but i think there’s no denying that he is afraid of letting this image falter, and that’s what this is really about

I feel this tbh, like imo Griffith wouldn’t really have a visceral fear for his physical safety, he’s been the best w/ a sword since he was like 10 from all appearances lol, and honestly I feel like as a peasant mercenary with the force of personality he has he would in theory be able to get away with some gnc presentation and attraction to men if all he wanted was to fight and make money. Same way Casca could lead the Hawks even though she’s a woman in the world of Berserk lol.

but his fear of failure is a major aspect – he needs the correct image while climbing higher in society, to achieve his dream.

and also i think he needs the dream to justify hiding behind the image, which is partly what i get out of that speech to charlotte. it reads to me like he’s justifying his dream to himself as worthwhile in and of itself, in a contrast to how he justifies it to himself in the river w/ casca a few chapters later, as something he owes the dead.

idk it all goes into how his dream is a defense mechanism from his self loathing and a way to justify his existence, but he doesn’t think of it that way 99% of the time, he has to see it as inherently worthwhile to avoid acknowledging the actual reason (self-loathing) he’s pursuing it.

and some of that self loathing is guilt, some is a belief of his inherent worthlessness, but some is also connected to his sexuality, both in his traumatic experience with Gennon after which he called himself dirty, and his love for Guts, which is especially shown through how Guts is pitted against his dream and how Guts “made him weak” and his feelings for him led to him losing everything. Griffith’s feelings for Guts are connected to his belief of his inherent worthlessness, because they exist in opposition to his dream. (this is thematic moreso than literal)

So part of his reason for pursing the dream is to bury those parts of himself – like it goes both ways, basically, imo. He has to be a heteronormative masculine ideal for the sake of the dream, but he obsesses over the dream partly as a way to bury the parts of himself that aren’t that ideal?

um i feel like this doesn’t really make sense lol sorry. it’s hard to explain how my brain makes connections sometimes.

murdersounds:

i’d like your thoughts on this please! i’d forgotten about this singular instance of guts clawing at his skin in the black swordsman arc. i have my own ideas, but i don’t have time to thoroughly analyze them right now with all the packing and moving—but basically—(and tumblr somehow didn’t save my previous wall of text about this) i’m assuming, that this is guts either/or/a bit of both;

1. guts dealing with his internalized grieving and rage, coupled with sleep deprivation, and even more sleep deprivation and rage driven by survivors guilt. not to mention all the tough guy posturing and denial of his true nature, he needs to stay angry. he wants to keep that anger burning at 1000% because anything less, i don’t think he’d be able to justify. his guilt is overwhelming. griffith does this for much the same reasons imo (compounded by his other awful reasons of course) … guilt over the fallen, while he/they remain/s “clean”/alive. lots of other parallels and reasons i’m sure too. maybe the physical pain feels better than the mental anguish, which guts clearly isn’t able to parse yet.

2. is it this particular scar though? the ellipses are definitely suggesting that looking at that scar triggers something within him. does anyone know what scar this is from, in particular? or could it just be a memory of seeing griffith’s own self-harm scars, giving him this idea even? miura might not have even written griffith’s self mutilation into the story yet though, who knows. maybe this is his way of showing characters dealing with trauma and ptsd in terrible ways.

if i weren’t in the middle of moving i’d look into it myself, but alas, i’m out of time. this scene is very intriguing, though. and please take my half baked analyses with a grain of salt, i often miss very basic stuff because i tend to hyper-focus on details rather than broad ideas … but i didn’t want to forget this.

Totally agree with #1. I think it’s partly guilt over the Eclipse (or whatever Miura was imagining this far back, but as early as Guts blatantly comparing himself to Vargas we know he lost loved ones), but also guilt over the people he gets killed just existing around them while ghosts show up to fuck with him every night lol, which we see in the 2nd chapter when he tells himself he doesn’t care what happens to the people he travels with, then they die and he’s sad.

Yk, he tells himself other people don’t matter because they’re weak (”If someone can’t live their life the way they please… they might as well die.”) but the self-harm is a v quick way of showing the audience that Guts doesn’t actually believe that, and he kinda hates himself for trying to convince himself of it.

Just like Griffith saying “I don’t feel responsible for my comrades who’ve lost their lives under my command. I guess… because they chose to fight. It’s just the way I am.” while he’s simultaneously tearing his arms open lol.

I think #2 is really interesting and something I never noticed actually. ihni where Guts got that scar, and since Miura never drew Griffith with si scars on his arm I doubt it’s actually a memory of Griffith, tho that concept is amazing and I’m about to just adopt it as headcanon regardless.

One thing that just occurred to me wrt that scar is that Guts looking at it before self harming over it ties Guts’ self harm to, yk, swinging his sword at giant monsters and groups of a hundred men. Miura maybe suggesting it’s all variations of self-harm? And foreshadowing Guts’ particular style of fighting, ie leap into danger, get his ass kicked, and maneuver himself close enough to exploit a big monster’s weakness.

babygriffith:

bthump:

babygriffith:

i’ve talked about these lines before but let’s examine them again

image

グリフィス(あいつ)への執着を振り切って
ここまで辿り着いたはずが･･･

I’ve come this far by letting go of my obsession …

i’m gonna gloss this in an unconventional way just to make it easier to understand what’s going on here grammar-wise

[griffith (him) – particle for direction – possessive particle – obsession (noun)] – object particle – [shake off/break off (verb in -te form)]
[here] – particle for destination – [arrive (verb in past tense)] – suffix (?) that means sth like “should have” – particle that means “but”

or, simpler,

obsession with griffith – object particle – shake off/break off (te form)
to here/this far – arrive (past tense) – should have – but

the key here is the -te form of the verb 振り切る, which is used for a number of things, among which are: connecting phrases, listing successive actions, and uhhh idk how to explain this but doing something by doing something else first. you know, sentences like “taking off my clothes, i entered the bath” and similar.

that last function of the -te form i mentioned is, i believe, the one used here. “i let go of my obsession with him, and i came this far,” or, more accurately, “letting go of my obsession with him, i came this far.” then there’s the はず part too, where guts expresses his uncertainty (meaning that he hasn’t really let go of his obsession and moved on), but that’s a little hard to translate accurately without it sounding weird in english. 

the other thing is, 辿り着く is in past tense. so i really don’t understand what in the world the translators of OP’s photo were thinking. he’s come this far, and he did it by letting go of his obsession. there’s nothing that indicates this was his past hope or whatever, at least from what i can see.

So what I understand is that this translation includes the uncertainty but in doing so basically changes the overall meaning, whereas the version I have “I’ve come this far… by letting go of my obsession…” gets the tense right but misses the uncertainty? Which yk seems fair because it does sound hard to convey without losing the flow of the sentence, plus it’s kind of… infused into the panel just from the fact that Guts is thinking about that glimpse of Griffith on the hill, but obviously that’s the most intriguing part to me lol so I’m glad it’s there somewhat in the original text.

honestly that’s a good way of putting it, that might be what they were trying to do. they just kind of made it sound like this was a past goal of his, which is not really the case. はず is like a … an expectation, but with certainty. expectation that something took place/is going to take place/is currently the case etc. you would use it to say “the shop should be open right now” if it’s like 8 pm and you know that the shop works until 9. it’s like, based on everything i know/have seen, this is how it should be … but it might still not.

that’s the sort of uncertainty guts is expressing here. “i should have let go of my obsession with him by now, but … (did i?).” there’s nothing in this line in original japanese that indicates that he set that as a goal for himself and then failed to achieve it. honestly i have to say i really feel like rather than choosing to focus on the uncertainty, this translator or translation team simply wildly misunderstood the grammatical structure of the sentence, and in doing so accidentally achieved something that the official translators weren’t able to. but who’s to say.

According to @murdersounds apparently this is the official translation lol. I hadn’t realized it’d been released, but I guess so. The one I was quoting is a scanlation, but one of the more reputable ones afaik.

So… ?? not like I’m going to complain much about dark horse either accidentally or purposefully helping push my griffguts agenda lmao, but this does make me wonder what the translator’s thought process was.

murdersounds:

bthump:

xiyyh
replied to your photoset “murdersounds: expository yelling at the count from puck, though it…”

mmmmmh really tho i don’t think griffith was fragile, not before he was broken at least

oh no you gave me an opening to talk about griffith. tbh it depends what you mean by fragile, like I might not even be disagreeing with you at all, but I have Strong Opinions on Griffith being a hot mess all his life and I can’t not take the opportunity to talk about them lol.

Basically overall I feel like this kinda sums it up:

image

I don’t think Griffith was fragile exactly – when Casca says he made himself strong, it’s not just a facade, he genuinely has the confidence to take 5,000 men and conquer an undefeatable fortress guarded by an army of 30,000, burn a queen to death while looking her in the eye, etc. Griffith is badass, and the fact that he basically deliberately chose to be as hardcore as he could to achieve a goal makes him extra badass imo. So if it’s a case of faking it til you make it he’s definitely made it.

But he makes himself that way by not just hiding but denying his vulnerabilities. Casca says Griffith had to make himself strong the first time after telling Guts about how he pretty much had a breakdown in front of her before smiling and telling her he’s fine.

imo Griffith is a giant self-loathing mess of guilt issues that he just almost never ever reveals or admits to himself, and while he uses his dream to help bury his weaknesses, Guts brings them out. It’s like, the dream is his emotional crutch, how he denies his guilt and self-loathing by telling himself it’s all necessary. But then Guts becomes an alternative to that – by the time they’re assassinating queens together Griffith wants Guts’ to assuage his guilt by telling him he’s good more than he wants to prove he’s doing the right thing by succeeding in his goal lol

And imo his emotional reliance on Guts starts as early as when he first met him, but we see the self-hate that he needs to build his defenses against even before that, during Casca’s flashback.

Oh also I say all this but I feel like Puck’s statement here is kind of a more universal statement on humanity than specifically calling the Count extra fragile. Everyone’s got issues, and got defense mechanisms to help deal with their issues, and everyone’s heart is fragile when they lose that armour.

image

Tho I def think Griffith has more than his fair share of issues.

(i promote this big griffith meta thing at every possible opportunity lol but it’s extra fitting for this topic so if anyone feels like reading this exact same point but in a whooooole lot more words, i got you covered)

oh!! absolutely, you’re right on all of this, i didn’t want to get too wordy on a reply to my own post then spiral into an incomprehensible analysis before dinner, but i know both of my statements were flawed. i got too thinky and offered no explanation to back up because i was in a rush 😭

i didn’t want to discredit the amount of strength it took to hold himself together more than anything else. i don’t know how he made it as far as he did honestly, knowing how thin that veneer was that kept him from shattering. i imagine he was mythologizing himself just to survive. the ~concept~ of griffith was his alone to bear. he’s ABSOLUTELY fragile. and i wouldn’t call it strength per se (in opposition to this fragility idea) but perhaps living up to the mythologized idea of himself was easier to focus on than unpacking even the smallest bit of mental baggage. i’m sure he would’ve unraveled if he’d started honestly addressing any of it.

maybe i was thinking in a … “could i possibly deal with this?” kind of mindset. i couldn’t, for sure. i’d have to be an extraordinary actor, at worst (as you mentioned, fake it till you are it, basically). even with his mountain of issues and posturing he somehow managed to pull through (until it was too much, obviously) and it’s very admirable (to me, a very fragile person, lol), and very, very sad. i feel like the guilt alone would’ve killed me. but i know he’s a master of compartmentalization and appearing strong to anyone looking up to him (maybe aside from guts, who i think he was fairly comfortable being honest with, maybe because guts treated him like a real person and not an idea/ideal, among other things.)

i’m sure you’ll agree with some of this! and i absolutely do subscribe to and understand these things you’ve pointed out, i’m just … very clumsy at cobbling together my thoughts together coherently or in order sometimes 🤧 i very much appreciate your deep analyses 💖 i could think and talk about this stuff all day, but i digress, because somehow it’s 4am???

Oh yeah I absolutely agree with all of this! and like yeah I didn’t think one off the cuff sentence encompassed all your thoughts, it’s why i was like idek if I disagree with you bc the word “fragile” is so nebulous, but yk genuinely if someone says something about Griffith to me I’m immediately like LET ME TELL YOU WHAT I THINK lol. And ty for your response, this is all so good!

Like everything you’re saying is something I really, really love about Griffith. it’s a contrast that highlights both sides – the severity of how he cracks in those vulnerable moments, like the self-harm, up to burning his life down around himself when Guts left, really shows how fucking impressive it is that he goes from back-alley peasant to nearly royalty while containing all of that in him. And his sheer self-control and the perfection of the image he portrays shows how intense the dark negative feelings are when they do break through.

Like eg Casca’s flashback makes the scene where he tells Gennon he gives zero fucks about him before killing him that much more powerful, because we know some of what he’s holding back.

Like I wouldn’t really say he’s admirable because his way of dealing with his issues by completely ignoring them is not great and causes many problems to put it mildly lol, but it’s impressive and pretty awesome, and like I would also crumble immediately in Griffith’s shoes lol. So I can see why Casca watches him bury his breakdown behind a smile and calls it strength and decides she wants to be his sword.

also

perhaps living up to the mythologized idea of himself was easier to
focus on than unpacking even the smallest bit of mental baggage. i’m
sure he would’ve unraveled if he’d started honestly addressing any of
it. 

yesss i love this. I never really thought of it like this but yeah the idea that he’s focusing on being this ideal image of himself not just because he has to to achieve his goal, but because it’s practically a distraction from looking at the darker, guilt-ridden, fucked up real him buried underneath.

and that makes the “do you think I’m cruel” conversation that much more heartbreaking, because it was Griffith opening himself up to starting to address some of it, maybe able to with Guts as emotional support, but instead he gets shut down.

griffiths-huggybox:

bthump:

image

i actually kinda like how unconcerned griffith is. he’s just like, welp what can you do casca, naked man + naked woman = acceptable, naked man + naked man = bad, that’s just the natural way of things and I got way too much internalized homophobia to fight it. (“warming a man is a woman’s duty, he said.”)

lol i seriously cannot read griffith’s narrative as anything but dream/heteronormativity vs guts/living ur gay truth.

like i’ve seen this scene described as just tone-setting casual ye olde sexism, but it feels too significant for that. it just fits their whole messed up love triangle dynamic so perfectly, it’s like, an ideal establishing action that just sums it all up.

I was actually a bit pissed when I found that out, but it’s one of those things that’s infuriating at first and then it makes sense later. It had nothing to do with sexism and everything to do with knowing that people would want Guts killed. No one would dare do anything to Guts while Casca was there. Griffith doing it himself would cause a lot of raised eyebrows for sure and he was shrewd enough to know that.

She’s right to be angry though, but Griffith doing it himself/leaving Guts alone would have been a bad idea.

this explanation has never occured to me but it does make a lot of sense logically.

but then i have to ask, why wouldn’t griffith/miura give that as the explanation then? there’s no in-story or out of story reason to keep it secret that i can think of, and it would make more sense for griffith to use that as his reasoning since it would presumably piss casca off less. plus i guess in the same vein griffith could’ve theoretically asked some dude to cuddle with guts while casca stood guard, but it had to be casca herself.

so tbh while it works as an explanation, I don’t think this is what Miura was intending. I def think it’s supposed to be basically an introduction to the way Casca’s narrative is all about misogyny and being a woman.

(I don’t think Miura necessarily intended the internalized homophobia thing btw, it just fits so well and reading it that way improves the story imho, and I can’t help but see it everywhere throughout lol)