also somewhat relatedly i love the thought of all those little moments in their relationship that we know existed but never get to really see, at least not in detail, in like the 3-4 years they had before everything got all fucked

the little quiet moments pre and post battle, eating together, drinking together, chatting about nothing important, or griffith opening up to guts the way we’ve seen a few times but must’ve happened more than that, laughing together, sparring together, whatever. there’s just so much potential there.

but i’m glad that we got to see just enough of them to hint at the little chill unimportant-to-the-plot moments, just enough to get the sense of the casual intimacy of their relationship

like guts trying to see griffith after the zodd fight because why the hell shouldn’t he go visit him? or like corkus calling guts griffith’s favourite. or like guts casually reclining in griffith’s study paging thru the kama sutra while griffith talks about the assassination attempt.

or like owen’s memory

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and some of the official art is gr8 for this too

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and mb my favourite two examples:

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like, i love that after the eclipse guts’ mournful memory of griffith is one we never actually saw, nothing particularly important, nothing relevant to the plot – just one instance of griffith glancing back at him before a battle.

and griffith’s last memory before making the sacrifice is also nothing relevant to the plot, nothing particularly important, just the two of them limping away after one battle out of a hundred together.

because it’s those moments that really, really define their relationship, moreso even than griffith saving guts from zodd or guts dedicating his sword to griffith or griffith’s breakdown when guts left or guts realizing he fucked up when he left, etc etc.

+ it’s those little details that rly sell their relationship even when we don’t get to see all that much of the casual pointless in-between moments imo. like the big important moments are incredibly good and why i ship them, but it’s just nice to know that those moments aren’t the only ones that matter.

prettykitten123
replied to your post “prettykitten123
replied to your post “chaoticgaygriffith:

…”

I think Griffith is gay, even though I feel like he doesn’t know it(maybe after a while he came to realize it, especially after Guts left him) as for Guts his sexuality is a mystery to me. I know he definitely likes men(even though he probably definitely doesnt understand that or acknowledge it) attraction to women is debatable.
The way I see it we
cant really pinpoint what Guts’ sexuality is or his thoughts on women.
Griffith was the first to give Guts something that he never had and I
feel like his affection for Griffith is dominantly based on this. No one
else in the manga, both men and women, have yet to give Guts what
Griffith gave him thus why no one has yet to win over his affections.

ia tbh

for me I think Griffith is variable, like i could see him being either super repressed about being gay thanks to a) his dream revolving around marrying a woman and b) gennon being the only textually gay dude in berserk (thx miura) and griffith being taken advantage of at probably the age where he’d be just starting to realize he had feelings of attraction to men, like, that seems extremely likely to fuck him up.

But I could also see him accepting that he’s attracted to men – I mean he reads a lot, he seems fairly worldly, maybe gennon isn’t his only exposure to same-sex attraction, etc – but also not thinking it’s important because it’s incompatible with his dream.

Either way though I definitely can’t see him as anything but gay.

Wrt Guts I see him as gay too. He could be bi easily enough, but it’s just so easy for me to see his short-lived relationship with Casca as repression at work lol. Like saying she was the only person who could touch him back in the day, which was textually because she’s a woman (and also wrong bc Griffith also could) feels really suggestive of this to me. And of course the way their relationship screams rebound from their feelings for Griffith for both of them. And post eclipse, the only times he thinks of Casca sexually are when Griffith is also somehow involved, a la

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And of course the entire Beast of Darkness debacle.

But yeah sexualities aside, since I mean it still could go either way from gay to bi, so w/e, that’s a really good point about Griffith being the only person in the manga who’s given Guts what he’s so desperately wanted – ie affection and attention and respect from someone Guts respects. It’s Griffith who he wants to look at him. Not Casca, not any of his rpg group or any of the other Hawks, just Griffith. It’s Griffith whose respect he feels like he needs to earn, no one else’s. It’s Griffith who he needs to feel equal to, no one else. It’s Griffith who he’s been obsessed with, no one else.

It’s why their relationship is still so extra lol, it’s shown as singular in the story, whether Miura meant that to be sexual or not.

So yeah idk, good comment basically, I just wanted to ramble on the subject lol.

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i know i’ve talked about this before lol but i s2g every time i remember this moment i’m even more taken aback by how fucking… jaw-droppingly suggestive it is

judeau, the dude whose sole goal in the latter half of the golden age is getting guts and casca together, telling rickert to shut up about how much griffith loves guts right before he overtly shoves guts at casca, starting on the very next page when judeau changes the subject to her leadership

like there is absolutely no reason for that panel to be there; rickert could’ve stopped talking of his own volition, guts could’ve had his moment, and the subject could’ve naturally changed to casca. you could remove it and change nothing else and everyone still makes sense in this scene, the dialogue still works, etc etc.

what it tells us is that judeau is being manipulative here, that he has an agenda in hooking guts and casca up (not that that’s subtle), and, the actual hugely interesting part, it means judeau has to avoid conversation about griffith’s feelings so guts and casca will get together – ie
guts and casca can only connect in the absence of griffith.

this is followed through of course when they both brood over him afterwards, and in how their sex scene is framed as a rebound for both of them through parallels to significant moments they each had with griffith, and in how their relationship such as it it starts to fall apart when they rescue griffith and eventually come to accept that he needs to be taken care of, and in how post-eclipse guts abandons her to pursue femto/griffith for 2-3 years, and in how he’s able to stick with casca after ngriff “deserts” him, and how he’s “come this far by letting go of his obsession with him,” etc etc

and mb even more interestingly, it also means that they can only connect when guts falsely believes griffith doesn’t feel strong irrational life-destroying feelings for him. hence judeau telling rickert to shut up while rickert is telling guts a game-changing truth. guts knowing how griffith feels about him is incompatible with his relationship with casca.

hence guts denying any feelings of guilt and regret when casca stabs him and putting it out of his mind when they fuck, until those feelings start creeping back during the rescue mission

AND hence guts moping and walking away with casca in tow when neogriffith flies off on zodd after telling guts he’s “free” from his feelings for him – only finally choosing to stay with her instead of pursuing revenge after ngriff deserts him.

so once again it comes back to this question:

what happens if guts finds out neogriffith’s heart isn’t frozen after all?

madchen
replied to your post “though actually while i’m on this subject, I do kind of have a big…”

i think berserk is walking that “revenge will destroy you” route and im not against a kind of emotional catharsis here but that would ideally be between guts and griffith and like that kind of reconciliation (given thats the angle were taking here) would leave an awful taste in my mouth bc of the eclipse rape lol.

tbh this is why i hope berserk isn’t so much going for a ‘revenge is bad and futile’ thing as it’s going for a ‘guts getting revenge in this particular case is bad and futile because it’s not his right to get revenge for the eclipse and also he wants revenge for the wrong reasons, ie bc it’s an easy outlet for his very complex feelings, but casca’s the hawk representative who never abandoned the band and also the person who suffered most so she’s the one who should get revenge.’

kind of suggested in part here at least:

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and yea youre right about the
railroading thing ughhgh that really gets me (im a broken record but it
reminds me of vriska and like that shit gets me). it feels pretty hallow
when you have to acknowledge this in the context of the whole story
especially bc griffiths helplessness to the waters of fate and destiny
isnt emphasized as overtly tragic as it really is. which is a valid
storytelling choice ic it just, again, gets me.
also femto is the consequence of guts actions and its clearly framed that way idk what people get out of insisting otherwise.

yeah i feel you, griffith’s narrative is so sad to me, but a lot of what’s tragic about it isn’t in your face.

and yeah it’s like, you can say guts didn’t deserve to experience the eclipse, which is obviously true bc v few people deserve that shit, and def not for making a mistake based on low self esteem lol, but narratively it’s the consequence of his actions bc berserk is a very dark story. guts is the main character who actively made a choice which set all the tragedy dominos falling. it’s even ironically fitting – his choice to “abandon” the hawks and griffith resulted in losing everyone permanently.

like i think ppl equate saying the eclipse/femto/griffith’s breakdown/etc is a consequence of guts’ actions to saying either a) guts deserved to suffer and/or b) if this happened in real life it would be right to blame guts for everything lol, neither of which are statements that necessarily follow the first one, and are clearly untrue. but fiction operates by different rules than reality.

though actually while i’m on this subject, I do kind of have a big issue with how this frames griffith.

cut bc this probably doesn’t really make sense lol, i’m rambling and i’m not entirely sure how to explain my thought process lol

like, if pre-eclipse griffith was a symbol of guts’ potential to have fulfilling relationships and find a place where he belongs, that guts then totally fucked up by “abandoning,” and post-eclipse neogriffith is a symbol of guts throwing away his potential to have fulfilling relationships by pursuing a stupid self-destructive dream, then there’s a bit of an awkward contradiction:

during the golden age, guts distancing himself from griffith was a bad thing that caused all his problems. after the eclipse, guts distancing himself from griffith is the narratively correct choice. this makes technical plot sense because in between griffith transformed into a demon lol, but thematically i think it’s unsatisfying.

griffith has essentially been replaced with guts’ protective relationship with casca. he fucked up and abandoned her, just like he fucked up and abandoned griffith, but now he’s making up for it by sticking around and protecting her – something he never got a chance to do w/ griffith. like, there was no magical cure to heal griffith, no long journey of personal growth, nada.

ignoring who could be
blamed for what if berserk happened in real life, bc this has nothing to do with morals or literal interpersonal responsibilities, from a fictional
storytelling perspective guts destroyed griffith when he made the wrong
choice by leaving. griffith’s year of torture and then eclipse causing
despair is the direct consequence of guts’ narrative mistake, and femto/ngriff
is an antagonist of guts’ own making.

so to then say that the right
thing for guts to do is to try to forget about him rubs me the wrong
way. it’d be one thing if griffith was dead and there was nothing guts
could do except try to avoid repeating his mistakes, but he’s alive and
currently acting on the world in a capacity that is, at least by some
standards, negative lol. the way stories work, that’s guts’ problem to
fix.

so if the thematic takeaway is that guts should just ignore
neogriffith and move on, and if he goes back to obsessing over him
that’s bad, then… i’m not satisfied with that lol.

also like, if the manga
decided to draw a very clear and explicit dividing line between human
griffith and neogriffith, essentially declaring everything human
griffith represented to guts as dead, that would also be one thing, but miura deliberately muddies the waters both by teasing the audience about
his beating heart and by guts’ emotional conflict a la “the instant I saw him I’d forgotten my
urge to kill,” and “longing,” and by continuing to utilize the light/dark imagery for their relationship, and having guts reminisce about original griffith after seeing him, etc.

so there’s this sense to me that neogriffith is simultaneously a symbol of guts’ self destructive dream (revenge, fighting stronger and stronger enemies, becoming griffith’s equal) and a symbol of guts’ mistake in pursuing that dream the first time – a symbol of what he threw away by leaving – and to me it feels unsatisfyingly contradictory.

and then on a purely emotional level lol it frustrates me that if the moral of the story really is that guts needs to move on and forget about the past and griffith and focus on the relationships he does have, then that means griffith was essentially a casualty of guts’ one step forward two steps back style character development. a character, from the perspective of his relationship to guts, who existed to be a consequence of guts’ mistake and teach guts a lesson through his destruction. and that just strikes me as unfair lol. idt guts should get to move on when griffith never had the opportunity – OR when griffith did take his opportunity ie the sacrifice, if we’re counting that, because then griffith moving on is evil but guts moving on is good.

and yeah maybe it’s a statement about moving on by suppressing your emotions vs moving on by forming new relationships, but griffith was railroaded by the narrative lol, he never got the chance to move on by forming new relationships, he was irreparably fucked the day after guts left. so if that’s the case then it’s weak.

but idk maybe i’m looking at this from entirely the wrong perspective. idk i’m just thinking outloud again rly. and until we find out what happens when casca has her mind back, it’s too early to draw any real conclusions anyway.

guts and griffith’s hetero relationships during the golden age are both symbols of their dreams, and exist in opposition to their relationship with each other

charlotte as a symbol of griffith’s dream is painfully obvious, but lemme outline casca as a symbol of guts’ quick:

  • guts’ dream is to become griffith’s equal and winning casca’s affection is framed as a step on that path, since casca loved and admired griffith
  • casca metaphorically becomes guts’ sword after they sleep together, now supporting his dream instead of griffith’s
  • guts tells casca all about his dream, repeating a lot of what griffith said to charlotte at promrose hall
  • guts invites casca along on his dream journey as long as she doesn’t get in the way of what he wants to do
  • casca is the one who tells guts to leave to pursue his dream instead of staying with griffith
  • and overhearing that completely fucks griffith up much the same way overhearing griffith talking to charlotte about his dream fucked guts up

the question is does this change after the eclipse? and i think it does – casca without her character represents a responsibility distracting guts from his dream (plus she’s the last “feeble flame” of that campfire he abandoned when he left to pursue a dream, so she represents the Hawks) whereas now neogriffith represents his dream.

however – consistently sex with casca has still been connected to his dream. when the beast of darkness taunts him, and when he assaults her, it’s “to get closer and closer to Griffith.”

i don’t have a conclusion to this or a point rly, i’m just thinking outloud

well i guess my point is “the golden age can be interpreted as a cautionary tale about heterosexuality and that’s why it’s the best arc” lol

I think Guts can defeat Neo Griffith in his human form. But what about Femto? If Guts reached Neo Griffith I think Griffith will be forced to transform into his demon/god form to use his full powers. But Femto is so OP. Do you think of any possibility or scenario to defeat him?

tbh I don’t really think it’s a matter of NeoGriffith transforming into a more powerful Femto form. We saw him as Femto once, when he killed Ganeshka’s ascended form, and I’m pretty sure that we only saw him as Femto because we were seeing him from Ganeshka’s point of view. I don’t think he literally transformed, I think it’s like, his ~ethereal~ form that only other godlike beings can see. Maybe Skull Knight can see it too, idk.

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Miura uses a very deliberate point of view shot to reveal NGriff-as-Femto for the first time, which is why I’m thinking it’s not a literal transformation.

But like, when it comes to power levels, idk. It’s all down to whatever Miura makes up, right? If Guts needs to defeat NGriff/Femto who has Femto’s telekinetic powers etc, Miura will make it possible by revealing magic Elf deus ex machina power up thing or something.

My hope though is that it doesn’t come down to a physical might against might thing, but rather, an emotional confrontation.

At the end of the day, even if NGriff is as powerful as Femto and Guts is no physical match for him, he still has the same weakness that resulted in Femto finding himself unable to kill Guts, and letting him go after the Eclipse. And NGriff calling off Zodd while his heart was unexpectedly beating. And Guts has his own, “the instant I saw him I’d forgotten my urge to kill,” thing.

Like this is a protag/antag relationship where both are conflicted and reluctant to kill the other, and have therefore been avoiding each other for like 200 chapters lol, and when you think of it like that I don’t think power levels are going to factor in much.

So to actually answer your question, the scenario I see to defeat NGriff/Femto, assuming he is defeated/killed eventually, is that Griffith fucks himself over once again because of the resurgence of his irrational, life-ruining emotions for Guts, fails to kill Guts when he should or fails to defend himself when he should or possibly does kill Guts and then has a breakdown at which point Casca can freely kill him.

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not with that attitude

(like jesus this is such a false dichotemy. she could travel with guts for a week and get dropped off to make her own way somewhere else, or he could take her back to godo’s with him and let her learn to be a blacksmith or smthn. it’s not a choice between fighting ghosts every day vs enduring abuse. there are other options lol.

idk maybe this is supposed to say more about guts than it does jill lol, i mean this is one of the darkest points of his narrative. maybe we’ll see jill again and discover that guts’ “advice” here did her no favours.)

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I like that we get Griffith’s monologue just one chapter before Guts starts to put it all together for himself, neatly referencing the same moments, and nearly coming to the same conclusion.

Hello! I just wanted to drop by and say that I really enjoy your metas! I also wanted to know your opinion on the reasons as to why Griffith loves and relies on Guts so much (unless you’ve already talked about this then nvrmind lol). Thanks for reading this and have an awesome day! :)

Thank you, I rly appreciate you saying so ❤

I’ve probably touched on it before but hell if I can remember where or
how much lol, and I like talking about this so I’ll totally share my
thoughts here.

I think the main reason, which I generally come back to, is because Guts doesn’t treat Griffith with the same awe and reverence the rest of the Hawks tend to treat him with.

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Their relationship is very wrapped up in power dynamics – Guts joining the Hawks after losing a duel to him, Guts feeling inadequate after Promrose, Griffith stuck on a pedestal wanting someone to share in the aspects of his rise to power that he feels he has to keep hidden from the rest of the Hawks, Griffith proclaiming none of the Hawks are his friends because they aren’t his equals, “how long ago did someone I was supposed to have in hand… instead gain such a strong hold on me?”, Guts internally waxing poetic about how untouchable and perfect Griffith is until remembering moments where Griffith was extremely vulnerable w/ him, etc etc.

This is a moment when they both felt like they were equals. “Now we’re even.” Just two kids having a water fight.

Griffith distances himself shortly after this with his speech about his dream, but I feel like it kind of encapsulates them. There are all these artificial power dynamics standing in their way – leader/soldier, dude with a dream/dude without a dream, griffith trying to maintain an image/guts buying into that image after overhearing the Promrose speech – but at their core they’re just two people who have a strong connection.

This shows through when Guts treats Griffith’s orders as suggestions and gets chewed out by Casca, when Griffith asks him to assassinate Julius like a favour rather than an order, when Griffith risks his life and dream for Guts, when Griffith asks if Guts thinks he’s cruel, when Guts says Griffith can take off the mask since it’s just the two of them, etc. All these little glimpses of equality that can never last – and every time they fall by the wayside in favour of reinforcing the power dynamics, it leads to tragedy.

Like

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But someone has to win the duel they insist on fighting.

lol I think I kinda veered off topic. But basically Guts is the one person who comes closest to treating Griffith as a person rather than a figurehead, and this marks their relationship as different, and brings them closer than Griffith is with anyone else. It’s why Guts is the person Griffith chooses to help assassinate people. You can even see this in Guts’ decision to leave – Casca hears the speech too and pretty much resigns herself to playing second fiddle, but Guts decides to do whatever it takes to become Griffith’s equal, misguided as his reasoning was.

Yk, rather than upholding the artificial dream criteria of equality, ignore it and recognize that it’s just getting in the way of actual equality.

Buuuut that explains like, why Griffith came to rely so heavily on Guts, and let him be the only person to see underneath the mask of perfection. It doesn’t explain why he was so drawn to Guts in the first place, or why he risked his life to save him the very first time, after only knowing him like a week.

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Honestly idk lol. I think this was partially meant to be a little ironic, coming right after the Black Swordsman arc – showing that what fascinates Griffith about Guts is exactly those qualities Guts embodies to an extreme extent as the Black Swordsman, and which Femto claimed to have no interest in.

Overall I think it’s definitely the case that Griffith is enamoured of these traits of Guts’ – his stubbornness, his willingness to do anything to win, the way he faces danger head on, etc. I’m not entirely sure what that says about Griffith though, or even if it’s intended to reflect on Griffith’s character beyond that irony of how Guts is at his most “interesting” by this criteria when he’s Griffith’s enemy.

Though…

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I wonder if it still kind of comes back to that equality.

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The fight Griffith reminisces fondly about is the one where he got punched in the face and nearly lost because the other dude bit his fucking sword and pushed him off a hill lol.

Like it kind of comes down to Griffith being knocked off his pedestal, and Guts having the ability to do that?

Ooooh and that makes the second duel really interesting. Guts is the only person Griffith has lost a fight to, and that maybe straight up symbolizes his love. Like Guts walked away after demonstrating exactly what Griffith loves most about him.

Idk lol this has kind of devolved into me just like musing outloud, sorry.

And actually I do know I talked about the whole equality thing more here (this is the 2nd part of a very long analysis lol) if you feel like reading more of my thoughts on that lol. I kind of want to sit down and think about how the duels and Guts’ “struggler” thing fit in more now lol.

Anyway ty for the question and comments, and I hope you had a lovely day when you sent this lol, and are having another lovely day now!

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I love the Golden Age as a continuation of the Black Swordsman arc so much. Guts taken aback by Griffith’s interest in him when they first meet vs Guts absolutely fuming from Femto professing a lack of interest.

bthump:

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parallels

i can’t believe i’ve written multiple long posts about casca and guts trying to replace griffith with each other and i never noticed that visual parallel when they each save her til now

like i’ve been v vocally back and forth on whether casca becoming guts “sword” is intentionally negative or meant to be seen as a positive symbol of moving on from griffith, and noticing that last panel just put me way more firmly on the “negative” side lol

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I’m gonna block you, which is why I capped this message instead of responding directly, but I do actually want to take a sec and answer your questions first lol, because hey it’s an excuse to talk about this shit, responding to these basic attempts at takedowns can occasionally be useful as validation for other shippers lol, and the first one is actually kinda worth discussing.

first question

Guts and Griffith both ended up opening up to Casca about their respective traumas because she happened to be there at a point when they were both particularly vulnerable.

Guts didn’t sit down with Casca and consciously decide to tell her his life story, Guts had a violent flashback during sex, strangled Casca, and then rambled about his childhood in a daze while hardly even noticing she was in front of him until she touched him and he jumped and realized what he’d just said and done.

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If he’d been hitting Griffith from behind instead of Casca the exact same thing probably would’ve happened.

And if Guts had been around back then and happened upon Griffith in the river after seeing him with Gennon the previous night, the exact same thing probably would’ve happened then too, give or take Guts’ response to the “am I dirty” question.

And neither of these dudes would’ve brought these subjects up without a catalyst to anyone, including each other. Griffith because he’s repressed about it, and Guts because it wouldn’t even occur to him as something worth sharing until he’s mid-flashback.

And Griffith did have an equivalent conversation with Guts, when he asked, “do you think that I’m cruel?” That also had a catalyst, ie, they just carried out some assassinations together, but it was just as vulnerable and intimate a question as Griffith’s “am I dirty?” to Casca.

So basically the answer is: just because Guts has never had a flashback in front of Griffith doesn’t mean he’s not comfortable with him.

second question

well for a start, here are a few:

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Also the entirety of the Count’s backstory in chapter 7. And a bunch of panels I skipped because I’m lazy and I’ve already posted a million collections of Gay Berserk Moments.

third question

he hasn’t chosen to sleep with a man bc a) trauma, b) he doesn’t even consciously recognize his own feelings for griffith, his subconscious beast of darkness is the one telling him he’s longing for him etc, c) even if he did figure it out during the golden age he doesn’t think he’s worthy of griffith lol there’s a whole arc about that, d) he’s only had sex twice in his life give him a chance, e) most relevantly, he’s the protagonist of a story in a seinen mag written by and for presumably hetero men.

madchen
replied to your post “madchen
replied to your post “what do u think is canon guts deep…”

guts gets so deep sometimes and i love it bc its usually only in reference to griffith and it exposes how thoughtful he really is…. in some of their conversations guts does most of the talking and griffith just listens enraptured bc he loves guts sm
bonus if guts eventually reaches out while talking to tuck a loose strand of hair behind griffs ear… dare i say uh gay?

it’s so true. guts is actually really self-reflective for like… a manly dude protag imo lol, he contemplates his emotions a lot, and pretty much always wrt griffith. like that monologue to judeau and corkus about how dazzling he is? guts having second thoughts after leaving griffith and wondering if he’s leaving something irreplacable behind? guts dedicating his sword to him on that rooftop? 15 yr old guts thinking about how ridic it is for griffith to try getting his own kingdom but deciding that ‘for now…’? guts having an existential crisis during the 100 man fight? the campfire of dreams convo? etc etc etc.

i’m trying to think of examples where he’s sitting around sorting thru his feelings and griffith isn’t involved. and my memory for moments that don’t relate to griffith is admittedly bad, but i can hardly think of anything. maybe some of his cynical religious commentary during the conviction arc. he’s got a few about casca, eg montage monologue about how hard it’s been to travel with her, thinking about how “this shell of who you used to be” reminds him of the good old days, thinking it’s better for farnese to “save” her because guts would only hurt her… but griffith tends to pop up in most of his contemplative moments, including the casca related ones.

also yes. guts gently tucking a strand of hair behind griffith’s ear = high tier content. actually can i just take a sec and be like

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this could’ve happened if the king hadn’t interrupted their moment. they got the romantic breeze blowing and everything.

madchen
replied to your post “robbffs
replied to your post “It sucks that Casca is reduced to…”

someone keep men away from casca
like i know hes a gruff guy but this
isnt sweet or romantic its weird and their whole relationship was
pathetic

mood

but honestly tho guts isn’t even a gruff asshole in general (during the golden age b4 he went black swordsman), just mainly with casca.

like not to be so obviously on my gay shit but his interactions with griffith are always respectful, tender, protective, thoughtful, etc. I think he calls him an idiot twice, once while telling him to save his own life, once to diffuse tension in an attempt to reassure him. whereas even after he and casca bond he still belittles and insults her (remember when he went on a misogynist tirade about how women suck to ~inspire her~ to keep going on their trek back to the hawks and we were supposed to think it was sweet lmfao) and treats her as an accessory.

like to compare:

he finds griffith after being tortured for a year, weak, helpless, not at all what he was expecting, no longer the strong independant man guts respected, and he cries over him and cradles him and then goes on a rampage to rescue him. he deliberately takes pains to treat him the same as he used to, talks with him like nothing’s changed, and decides to forgo his “dream” to stay and take care of him.

he finds casca after she was traumatized into insanity, helpless, not at all the person he was expecting, no longer the strong independent woman guts respected, and he yells at her to snap out of it, forcefully grabs her twice after she flinched from his first attempt to touch her until she literally bites him to get away, terrifies her, then leaves her in a cave for two years.

(and this is a dude who has been raped and couldn’t stand to be touched for years afterwards, you’d think he’d have a bit of empathy, and yet)

save casca from men 2k18

It sucks that Casca is reduced to support for other people’s dreams at the same time Guts is absolutely determined to achieve a dream so he can be Griffith’s equal.

Like Guts inviting her along. It kind of randomly occurred to me that he would never have in a million years invited Griffith along on the road to his dream lol, because that would’ve defeated the entire purpose. Guts adopted Griffith’s view of equality as having an obsessive dream. Guts hugely respects Griffith’s dream and would never try to sway him or stand in his way. Guts wants to be like Griffith in that way and feel as though he has something as respectable to shoot for himself.

Casca? Guts never even begins to conceive of her as a potential equal.

Casca tries to kill herself because the strain of supporting the dream of someone who doesn’t love her and might not even be alive is too much, and instead of say, encouraging her to find a dream and live for herself, since it’s working so great for him and at this point Guts genuinely believes that having your own dream is the pinnacle of existence, Guts encourages her to come along on his journey and support his dream instead.

And while Berserk is overall kind of like, dream-negative lol, bc the whole achieving a dream to be Griffith’s equal thing was misguided from the start, Guts’ priorities are still all about Griffith – leaving to be his equal, or realizing that it was misguided and choosing to stay, both for Griffith.

And I mean, I like that Berserk blatantly devalues het romance compared to homoerotic + thematically resonant relationships between dudes, obviously lol, but it pisses me off that Casca’s character gets fucked over and over and over again because of it, because her character revolves around that devalued romance.

Like, basically the concept of pursuing a dream to feel like your bff’s equal is depicted as negative, but Guts inviting Casca along on his dream journey is never questioned by the narrative – it’s just assumed that Casca, as the romantic object of affection, defaults to playing support while the men are obsessed with the idea of equality and power dynamics. I’d like to believe this is also intentionally shown to be negative, but like, I don’t really think it is, I don’t think Miura really questioned this.

don’t you think it’s interesting that the godhand said they promised the count they would make him a “supernatural being who would never know sorrow or despair” yet we see many apostles (including the count) feel despair at some points?

Yep.

Like I think it’s a little ridiculous that the Count got a chance to make two sacrifices, and it’s probably a case of early installment weirdness bc I don’t think that actually makes sense wrt what we know about how sacrifices work (like what was going to happen if the Count did sacrifice Theresia? He’s already one of the more powerful apostles we’ve seen)

But I do think it’s definitely meaningful that the Count falls into despair, and not just an accidental contradiction lol. The further on we go the more depth apostles get, from pure evil snakeman to three dimensional count who still has loved ones to sympathetic rosine to zodd and irvine getting the same thematic inner beast vs man stuff guts gets.

Not to mention Femto letting Guts escape, and lbr I know we’re all hoping this is going to come full circle wrt NeoGriffith.

This is about Falconia, bodies and lives being bought and sold, the natural order of the world, etc.

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tw for csa (no graphic panels but still disturbing enough for a cut imo)

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The Conviction Arc shows us in broadstrokes the world humanity’s collective unconscious wants to overturn through starving crowds, dungeons filled with tortured ‘heretics,’ rampant plague and the desire for a saviour, and nobles terrorizing peasants using god as an excuse, but this is the up close and personal version. Lives and bodies as commodities, weak trampled by the strong, poor ruled by the rich, and everyone accepting it as the way things are.

Our three main protagonists during the Golden Age all have very personal formative trauma that revolves around being bought and sold as a matter of course.

And Griffith’s dream, as someone wracked with guilt for lives lost in his battles, someone who has sold himself to a rich and powerful predator to save some of those lives, is to overturn this natural order of things.

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And he does. Falconia is a place where children aren’t sold as sex slaves, where the powerful do not oppress the weak, where the rich don’t exploit the poor, where everyone is treated equally and with dignity, where Guts, Griffith, and Casca could’ve all had happy childhoods.

One of the important aspects of this theme re: societal power dynamics and exploitation is that these evil actions
are excused away. This is true of like, just about every abuser of power and
rapist in Berserk. Some think it’s okay because someone more powerful than
them told them they’re allowed (torturer, Wyald/probably the rest of
the apostles, Mozgus’ torturers, Mozgus and the inquisition in general
passing the buck onto God, Donovan because Gambino allowed it, etc),
some think it’s okay because that’s just the way things are (Donovan
again, Adon, Rosine’s got some of this, etc), some think it’s okay because
they’re powerful enough to do anything they want (implied with Gennon,
Ganeshka,

the Godhand, a lot of apostles, Casca’s attempted rapist nobleman), and finally some think it’s okay because the world wronged them (Gambino, apostles like Rosine again and Eggman, Jill’s dad, the baby eating heretics lmao, one could argue the King, Mozgus’ torturers again, etc).

Again, it all comes back to the “reason of the world,” the natural order of things that NeoGriff overturns. In the ordinary world these people with power can do whatever they want and justify it to themselves. In NeoGriffith’s world, they don’t. Apostles, our prime example of powerful preying on weak because they’re allowed to, no longer prey on humans, simply because of NeoGriffith’s existence.

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It seems safe to assume nobles no longer exploit people either, if nobility is even still a thing in Falconia. Like granted, I’m taking some of this as read based on what we’re told Falconia is, but I feel like the apostles (and the explicit focus on equality) are a good representative example of the point of Falconia, which is to essentially fix everything we see wrong with the world in the Conviction arc and, like I laid out above, in our protagonists’ lives.

The fact is that Falconia isn’t just a utopia on a distant macro level, where the readers can look at it and go, hm seems nice I guess but w/e. On a micro level it’s a place where these horrible things that happened to the characters we personally love and care about wouldn’t’ve happened. I, at least, am emotionally invested in that utopia because of this, yk?

But here’s where I get critical of the portrayal:

Femto and the Eclipse rape is the epitome of the harmful power structure. Like, Femto hits every branch on his way down this tree lol. During his transformation he met God, God absolved him of his guilt and responsibility by telling him he can do whatever the fuck he wants and it’ll be the right thing. He’s taking the place of the nobleman he saved Casca from and exemplifying existing power structures of strong preying on weak, and it’s petty revenge.

One can easily argue that the Eclipse rape is a distillation of every abusive power structure in Berserk.

So okay, you have Falconia, a utopia that exists to eschew these power structures and create a place of equality where no one is exploited, created by a dude whose defining act is the epitome of these abusive power structures.

And frankly it’s fucking pointless. This feels like the shallowest of shallow hot takes lol. Like, oooh what if this wonderful place where all the horrible things that traumatized our favourite characters are no longer an accepted given was created by an evil demon rapist???

Like… okay? And then what? The Eclipse rape has nothing to do with the social structure of Falconia, NGriff seems to have completely delivered on his/humanity’s dream regardless, he is now the higher power making the calls and he hasn’t told everyone to do whatever they want no matter who it hurts. From what we’ve seen he’s done the exact opposite, existing as a tempering influence on the apostles who no longer prey on those weaker than them, ending the Holy See’s reign of terror, ending wars in general, and uniting people in their differences.

So it’s just like, an arbitrary evil act which creates an artificial sense of moral greyness. It has no deep meaning. I mean I suppose Miura could address it in the future – I’ve mentioned that I think it could theoretically be really interesting for Casca to visit Falconia and see the dream she devoted her life to having come to fruition because of her rapist. But even so, that doesn’t have any like… deeper intrigue. That’s interesting for Casca’s character, not as an examination of moral relativity or w/e.

Similarly, if NeoGriffith turns out to be more human than he looks he could reflect on this contradiction in a potentially interesting way.

But I can’t think of a way to make it an interesting examination of morality. It’s boring at its core imo. I mean you could argue that it’s still worthwhile on that personal character level, but let’s be real here – no amount of potentially interesting character stuff in Casca’s future is worth removing her from the story for 20 years, and anything w/ NeoGriffith would be a retread of human Griffith’s guilt issues and frankly I don’t see it happening anyway lol.

So yeah ultimately this whole egalitarian utopia created by a rapist demon thing just does not work for me at all. There’s no reason the creator of this paradise /had/ to be a symbol of this abusive power structure it exists to destroy, again, that’s just an arbitrary happenstance, not a pre-requisite to utopia building, so it doesn’t say anything about the nature of Falconia. It doesn’t say anything about utopias in general, it doesn’t say anything about those power structures that we don’t already know (ie they bad, equality good).

It’s like, fake deep tbqh.

The actual interesting and morally grey aspect of Falconia is the way world peace was achieved by setting a bunch of fantasy monsters loose on humanity, and that has nothing to do with the Eclipse rape. Like, that’s literally all you need for the moral complexity. We have world peace and a growing utopia that everyone is welcome to join, but the price is monsters everywhere, and this could not have happened without those monsters to unite humanity in fear. Is the world better or worse than it used to be?

And NGriff being a rapist, or his demon alter ego being a rapist, or whatever the deal is there, adds nothing to that question, rather, it distracts from it and devalues the actual moral ambiguity.

In fact, it makes me wonder whether Miura regrets going with rape as his way of demonstrating Femto’s evil. Because it’s been such a non-issue to the whole theme of power structures, utopias, equality, etc, that it feels like Miura is sweeping it under the rug lol – it’s less of an attempt at dark irony and more the elephant in the room. I can’t even say with confidence that Femto was intended to be a symbol of exploitative power structures, despite how obvious it seems, because it just… hasn’t impacted the themes of the story at all.

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i love the detail of guts’ eye dripping blood here

it’s a symbol of despair that’s rly effective in illustrating guts’ feelings here (moreso than the run imho lol) despite not actually having any literal correlation to his emotions – yk bc it’s reminiscent of griffith crying blood after the behelit opened – and it’s gr8 that it comes right after that last memory of griffith.

it’s like a little mirror. each the source of the others’ despair.

contaminatedbreastcheese
replied to your post “Ok, this is my long and thorough explanation of how Guts’ decision to…”

While I agree that leaving behind the Hawks/his family in pursuit of proving his “worthiness” was misguided, I’m hesitant to call it a “mistake.” Living (and dying) as an accessory solely for the benefit of someone else isn’t particularly good or healthy.

I’d agree if Guts’ life with the Hawks was ever framed as “living and dying as an accessory solely for the benefit of someone else,” but it isn’t.

I assume you’re referencing this:

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Which is Griffith’s answer when Guts asks why Griffith risked his life to save him.

Basically Griffith denying any emotional investment in Guts by emphasizing his role as a military leader who sends people to their deaths regularly.

Guts calls him out on basically lying here three years later, in the post-Zodd conversation.

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So yeah, while this is nice foreshadowing for the Eclipse, it’s explicitly not how Griffith actually feels wrt Guts, and Guts figures that out.

Guts was never just an accessory to Griffith’s dream, and there was a point where Guts knew that perfectly well, before the overheard Promrose Hall speech fucked it all up lol.

And just to add a few more things:

even if Griffith really did see Guts as just another soldier who could help him achieve his dream, I don’t think it would necessarily be unhealthy for Guts to stay with the Hawks. Being a mercenary is a line of work, and being a mercenary with the Hawks is a line of work with much greater rewards, much greater camraderie and friendship, and a greater sense of purpose than being a mercenary with any other band. Guts comments early on about how the Hawks are different than any other mercenary band he’s fought with because they’re happier, because they have a personal stake in Griffith’s dream.

Guts doesn’t particularly care about being raised into the peerage, or even about the idea of Griffith becoming a King beyond thinking Griffith is “absolutely incredible” for having such a lofty dream and actually getting close to achieving it, but he does care about his friends, and during the three years in which he presumably felt like he was mainly just doing a job, he was happier than he’s ever been before or since.

So imo it would still be the case that Guts would find greater personal fulfillment in a mercenary band full of happy people who love him as a friend and respect him as a leader, rather than wandering around alone crossing swords with anyone who looks strong – specifically, it’s implied in a flashback during the Wyald fight, monsters like Zodd:

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Again, it’s another little piece of sad irony, knowing how Guts spent two years after the Eclipse.

And lol I know this response is getting long, sorry, but w/e I love talking about this shit so one more last little thing:

Griffith also doesn’t see any of the Hawks as just accessories to his dream, let alone Guts. He cares about the Hawks more than probably any other mercenary leader.
I mean this is a dude who prostituted himself to a pedophile to prevent
as many deaths in the line of duty as possible, and self-harmed in a
river while monologuing about how he has to win for the sake of the men
who’ve died for his dream.

He represses the hell out of his guilt and emotional attachment to them, because they die a lot and if he didn’t he’d be a wreck, but the very fact that he could offer them up as sacrifices means they were all extremely important to him:

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Ok, this is my long and thorough explanation of how Guts’ decision to leave the Hawks was ultimately shown to be a mistake.

I’ve been kind of meaning to write this for a while because I tend to take this statement as read in a lot of my meta and I wanted to have something to point to for the sake of clarification whenever necessary lol. Also jsyk this isn’t quite as long a read as it looks bc there are a lot of illustrative images.

And before I get into it I just want to make something clear: when I say it was a mistake I’m not saying that it’s a decision that reflects badly on Guts. It reflects many of Guts’ issues, and it stems largely from growing up with an abusive father figure, but based on the information Guts had at the time, and based on his personality and his values it was a reasonable decision to make from his perspective.

It’s just one that he ended up wholeheartedly regretting for very good reasons.

This basically rests on three premises:

1. Guts was happy and felt personally fulfilled with the Hawks.

2.
Guts chose to leave for one reason and one reason only: Griffith’s Promrose Hall speech made him feel inadequate.

3. Griffith’s speech absolutely didn’t reflect either his actual feelings about Guts or a particularly worthwhile life philosophy, and eventually Guts comes to understand this.

So let’s demonstrate the first part, starting from when Guts joined the Hawks.

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Cue the waterfight scene with Griffith. And afterwards:

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Then Rickert knocks him off the step and congratulates him on already having ten men under his command.

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Guts is happy with the Hawks. After only a week with them he’s already chilling out about being touched, he’s feeling accepted, he’s responsible for others and he’s rising to that responsibility. He reflects on the night he killed Gambino and fled his first home, thinks “I still don’t have an answer to that question [of where am I going?]…” but then when Rickert congratulates him he thinks, “for now…”

For now, he’ll make his home with the Hawks. He tells Rickert to call him Guts and their clasped hands get their own panel. He’s forging new relationships and bonds with people, beginning to heal from past trauma, and growing as a person. He’s no longer swinging his sword just to survive, but as part of a unit, to help his friends and comrades survive and thrive too.

Three years later, when Casca accuses him of not changing since he joined them, of not caring about his comrades, he’s incensed.

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He’s proud of having changed. He’s proud of his place in the Hawks, of being their raider captain, of Griffith’s faith in him. Casca’s words wound him because he has deep seated insecurities related to being an outsider.

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His rivalry with Casca draws these insecurities out but overall he is very happy with the Hawks, he does care about them, and Casca insinuating otherwise pisses him off for good reason.

When Griffith nearly dies saving him from Zodd and then says he did it for no reason and implies he’d do it again without question, Guts like, basically reaches the pinnacle of his life.

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And like, it is straightforward textual canon that this is everything Guts has desperately wanted all his life, thanks largely to his big pile of issues stemming from his fucked up childhood:

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That is exactly what he has, and more importantly, what he understands and recognizes he has, after this staircase conversation.

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When he first joined the Hawks we saw him remember that question he asked himself the night he killed Gambino and ran from his first (shitty) family: “where’m I going?”

After this conversation he remembers that night again:

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He’s chosen to replace that first family, the abusive father he killed, the first mercenary band he grew up with, with the Hawks and Griffith. He has an answer to why he’s swinging his sword, and it’s not just to survive – it’s “for his sake.”

For now…

That little “for now” is important. It’s what he thought when he joined the Hawks three years ago, and it’s what he thinks now, because frankly, he is terrible at committment. This is an important part of Guts’ character. He’s slow to trust that others care about him because of his terrible childhood, and he’s very quick to believe he is unloved and unwanted. That “for now,” sets us up for the way one overheard speech makes Guts decide to rebuild his entire life from the ground up.

But hey, for now, he’s happy. He knows he’s cared for, he knows people, particularly Griffith, love and respect and value him. That to Griffith he’s worth risking his life for. He’s ready to dedicate himself to Griffith in turn. This is huge for Guts.

So yeah, he’s content and feels personally fulfilled with the Hawks and Griffith at this point in his life.

But then comes the speech.

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This completely wipes away Guts’ assurance that Griffith loves, values, and respects him.

It changes everything for Guts and inarguably informs his choice to leave:

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The real question worth asking isn’t why Guts decided to leave the Hawks, but why did one overheard pretentious speech about how Griffith has no friends affect Guts so profoundly that he immediately stopped viewing Griffith as a fellow human who would happily risk his life for him and began seeing him as a distant and perfect godlike figure who Guts would do anything to reach?

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Like this speech comes after Griffith has literally died “for [his] sake.” In the encounter with Zodd, Griffith was dead because he instinctively ran into danger to grab Guts personally – it was only an unforseen twist of fate that allowed him to survive. And Guts knows this is significant, which is why he questions him about it, gets his answer, and dedicates himself to Griffith in return.

The speech erases that.

Afterwards, he has this incredibly unsubtle conversation with Casca:

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Casca is laying down some basic facts here that add up to a confirmation of everything Guts believed when he said “I’ll wield my sword… for his sake,” on that rooftop.

Guts is the first person Griffith has ever said he wanted. Casca
hoped it was for his strength as an aid for achieving his dream, but
that is clearly not the case since he has nearly sacrificed his life –
and dream, Casca specifies – for Guts twice.
Griffith values Guts even above the dream he’s dedicated his life to, as is thoroughly demonstrated by his actions.

But Guts
completely disregards this. Casca straightforwardly tells him that
Griffith feels some unique and irrational emotions for Guts, and his
actions are proof of that, but Guts never stops to consider that maybe
Griffith’s actions speak louder than his words. At the most, what Casca’s angry monologue might do is give Guts the confidence that he’s capable of becoming Griffith’s friend, and therefore inspires him to leave.

But it certainly doesn’t make him rethink the truth or the value of Griffith’s speech to Charlotte.

I’m not going to get heavily into Griffith’s point of view here, I’ve done that very thoroughly in the second part of this giant thing
for anyone rly curious, but suffice to say his Promrose Hall monologue doesn’t have a
damn thing to do with how Griffith actually feels about Guts lol.

Guts doesn’t fit his weird and narrow definition of friend, Guts is actually far more important to him than this definition leaves room for. A friend is someone who has his own dream and would prioritize it over friendship, allowing Griffith to prioritize his own dream as well – Guts, conversely, has already taken priority over Griffith’s dream when Griffith risked it for him twice.

Griffith isn’t about to consciously admit to himself that his dream is no longer his number one priority, but our trusty commentator of their relationship, Casca, knows the score, and explains it to Guts, and completely fails to get through to him.

And the reason Guts prioritizes the speech over actual evidence of what his relationship with Griffith actually is, both in the form of Griffith saving him and Casca explaining things to him, comes back to his abusive childhood:

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He is convinced that Griffith looks down on him because this is what he’s grown up expecting from people he respects and loves. He expects to be seen as worth nothing more than the money he can bring in and the fights he can win, he expects to be ostracized and seen as “cursed,” so Griffith’s speech overrides Griffith risking his life and dream to save Guts twice, it overrides Casca’s jealousy of their relationship, it overrides Griffith freaking out and refusing to let Guts leave without another duel, hell, for a while it even overrides both Casca and Rickert telling him that Griffith destroyed his life because Guts left.

He’s gone from feeling like a trusted, respected, and valued friend to feeling like nothing more than an asset to Griffith’s dream.

Remember, he did not feel discontent before the speech. In his three years with the Hawks before overhearing the speech, he felt like he’d found the place he belonged. He felt worthwhile, he felt valued as a person and not just as a soldier, and moreover, he was right to feel that way.

The Hawks do love, respect, and value him, and Griffith demonstratably values him even over his dream whether he’s able to admit that to himself or not.

And it’s only after overhearing the speech, overhearing that Griffith can only see someone as a friend and equal if they have their own obsession to pursue, that Guts starts feeling once again like he’s only fighting to survive, as we see him ponder during the 100 man fight, and here:

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Before the Promrose Hall speech he felt like he was fighting for his friends and comrades, for Griffith, and he was proud of that, but now he feels like he’s worthlessly fighting for nothing. It’s incredibly depressing imo. This is straight up a result of Guts’ low self esteem, thanks to his abusive childhood.

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This is Guts’ tendency to feel like an outsider rearing its ugly head. This is because he grew up being told he was cursed, used only as a source of income for Gambino, and turned on and nearly killed by Gambino and then the rest of the mercenaries. This is Guts feeling like he can’t trust any companionship to be genuine other than his sword.

Basically what happened is that Guts overheard Griffith’s speech in a moment of particular vulnerability. He’d just accidentally killed a kid and he was feeling like a monster about it. He was trying to find Griffith, probably to feel that same sense of acceptance and love he felt during the staircase conversation – he needed reassurance, and instead his world came crashing down around him and his feelings of worthlessness resurged hard.

And because of his outsider issues he extrapolates Griffith’s speech to his feelings about being part of the Hawks as a whole. Every Hawk has a dream except him, therefore he’s an outsider and doesn’t really belong.

And on some level, Guts knows this is bullshit.

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It’s been one day and, now feeling the full weight of being alone again and apart from what Rickert pointedly calls his family, he’s already having second thoughts, reflecting on the warm companionship he’s giving up and acknowledging that his goal is inherently contradictory.

He wants to find his own dream so he can live for himself, when his entire reason for wanting that is to become Griffith’s equal. He’s not going out to find a dream for the sake of his own sense of independence, or because he personally also believes that a person is only worthwhile if they’re pursuing something.

He’s doing it because he overheard Griffith say that’s the only way to be his friend.

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As he declares his independence from Griffith he is literally parroting Griffith’s speech here lol; it’s a giant contradiction and proof of what he mused on the night he left – he got this idea in his head by overhearing Griffith’s words, therefore he’s not actually doing it for his own sake.

Guts left for the sole reason of fulfilling Griffith’s weird and specific friendship criteria.

And after Guts comes back his whole narrative pretty much revolves around his slow and painful realization that Griffith’s speech was functionally meaningless, and yeah it turns out he did end up throwing away something irreplacable that he’ll never have again by taking off.

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Like, just to underscore how significant it is that Guts lets Casca stab him as he internalizes this information, this is a huge sign of guilt. We see Guts do the same thing when the possessed kid stabs him all the way back in chapter 2. He denies feeling responsible both times, but the fact that he let himself be stabbed contradicts those words.

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It takes him several days and several pretty huge anvils dropped on him before he finally accepts the fact that not only was leaving entirely unnecessary because Griffith did not actually look down on him or consider him unworthy, but by leaving he destroyed the thing he left to obtain in the first place: he left to become Griffith’s equal and when he came back, by any standards these two idiots would use to define power and worth, Guts is by far Griffith’s superior now. Entirely because Guts left Griffith is now disabled, helpless, voiceless, dreamless, powerless, and dependent.

And let’s be real, it’s a pretty damn harsh thing to accept that you not only rearranged the focus of your entire life and left your found family for no reason, but by doing so you lost the thing you rearranged your life and left your family to try to get. It’s no wonder Guts holds out for so long.

He keeps telling himself that Griffith is above the kind of emotion that would lead to him being declared a traitor one day after Guts left, that Griffith is untouchable, that Griffith has always had everything under control and always will. He insists to himself that Griffith is perfect and soaring distantly above him, because his reason for leaving is to become just like him. He has to believe it to justify his decision.

Since before he left:

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to after he comes back:

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But his ability to deny not just Griffith’s flawed humanity but also his devastatingly powerful feelings for him is growing weaker. Guts is beginning to realize that the fact that Guts was able to destroy him by leaving is itself proof that he didn’t need to leave.

Guts already had as strong a hold over Griffith as Griffith had over him. They were already functionally equals in this way.

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Then I’ve made a huge mistake.

To make a long story short (too late), this is why Guts left:

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And this is how Griffith really feels about Guts:

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These two monologues exist to play off each other. Guts monologuing about his feelings for Griffith, how dazzling he is, how he needs to leave so he can be Griffith’s equal instead of feeling like Griffith is looking down on him. And Griffith’s monologue about his feelings for Guts, how the dream he’s spent every waking moment of his life pursuing pales in comparison to him, how strong Guts’ hold on him is, how he’s the sole sustenance keeping him alive.

It’s a point/counterpoint. Griffith’s monologue directly states that Guts is wrong about his reasons for leaving.

And again, I don’t think Guts’ decision to leave was actually stupid, or that it reflects badly on him. Griffith himself didn’t properly recognize his feelings for Guts until it was too late, and Guts had good reasons, both internal (a history of abuse) and external (Griffith’s stupid speech), for believing Griffith looked down on him.

But nevertheless he was still wrong, and here’s where Guts finally, finally realizes it properly, without pushing that realization away and denying it some more:

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Unfortunately he realizes this about 30 seconds too late, which is what makes Berserk a tragedy.

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Anyway, that’s about it. It may be worth noting that his regret over leaving informs significant chunks of the rest of his narrative, such as realizing he’s been being a dick by leaving Casca in a cave for two years:

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And refusing to leave her again:

“Don’t abandon what you can’t replace. Weren’t those Godo’s parting words?”

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Guts realizing he fucked up and shouldn’t’ve left the Hawks informs his most significant moments of personal growth over the series. Realizing he’s repeating that mistake is what finally sways him from the self-destructive path of rage and revenge to putting his energy into protecting Casca.

The fact that companions and loved ones are more important and genuinely healthier things to prioritize than dreams is one of the central themes of Berserk, and Guts choosing to leave the Hawks, his family, to pursue a dream, thereby losing all of his friends and loved ones, is the main illustration of this theme.

Also worth noting: the dream Guts eventually landed on was to just keep swinging his sword, getting better and stronger and fighting better and stronger enemies, except alone this time, instead of among comrades and friends. You know what that describes to a tee? The Black Swordsman arc, as is neatly pointed out after the Eclipse:

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Guts would’ve been much, much better off staying with the Hawks and continuing to find personal fulfillment in his relationships and feelings of being loved and valued, but years of being told his only worth is as an asset, rather than as a person, blinded him to the truth and made it too easy for him to believe he’s looked down on.

Part of the tragedy of the Golden Age hinges on Guts’ low self esteem and inability to see that he’s loved because of it. This is what happens when you’re the protagonist of a really well-written, really tragic story: you make some wonderfully disastrous, character-revealing mistakes.

more light imagery

guts, looking up at the full moon and longing for a place to call home after killing gambino and fleeing:

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guts, looking up at the full moon and realizing he’s found that home with the hawks:

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guts, looking up into the sky a third time but there’s no moon and his home has just been completely obliterated:

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chaoticgaygriffith:

bthump:

chaoticgaygriffith:

bthump:

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1. This is another one of my favourite expresions in Berserk tbh

2. I’m not saying this is deliberate, I’m not sure it would even be in character, but I can’t help but imagine this as Guts taunting Femto/Griffith about the fact that he was in love with him, his life was destroyed because of him, Guts drove him to make the sacrifice by leaving him, and Guts knows it.

Like yeah logically it’s just Guts being pissed off over the fact that Griffith sacrificed him to become a demon, especially with the follow up “thanks to me who’s fighting an army of the dead because of you,” but man, I’m js that knowing how the Golden Age goes gives this line potential Layers. You’re where you are now because this petty existence had all that power over you.

On the other hand this whole scene exists to set up Griffith making the sacrifice to bury his fragile heart bc of whatever went down w/ Guts, so like, it could be that deep?

Plus Femto’s response:

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Just gonna reiterate that you mean absolutely nothing to me.

Whether that’s what Guts meant to say or not, I’m pretty sure he’s well aware of the irony of Femto emphasising his insignificance now, considering everything that went down between them. He might even stubbornly refuse to go back to post-Speech-to-Charlotte Guts, clinging to the fact that, no, I meant something to you and you meant something to me, and we both know that.

But then he would also have to know that it’s his fault that Griffith went this far. Which we know that he does, but idk, whenever I re-read the manga I feel like we should get to see more guilt from him.

Anyway, I don’t think Miura was fully taking all this into consideration while writing these first few chapters, but in retrospect you have to think about all the layers of meaning behind nearly every word Femto & Guts exchange. Like, this is off topic, but it’s in these chapters that Guts first finds out what sacrificing someone really means, and he doesn’t really react in any significant way, when realistically he should.

To be fair he’s unconscious when the Godhand actually explain the sacrifice and tell the Count that a sacrifice has to be someone you love so much it’s like they’re part of you. Which imo is kind of a hmmmm in and of itself, like there’s no reason Guts had to be unconscious at any point at all since he could barely move anyway, except to miss the explanation of who can be sacrificed. When he does wake up he just lies there and listens to the Count’s backstory before finally telling Puck to heal him. So I feel like it kind of suggests that Guts knowing that info might affect some things.

But otherwise yeah ia. I’m actually kind of rly into the idea of Guts stubbornly clinging to the knowledge that he was important to Griffith, hard earned as it was, now that you mention that. At least between the Eclipse and Griffith’s rebirth.

It’s like… idk I think there’s an argument that he left the Hawks because he knew he did mean something to Griffith, and that gave him the confidence to believe he could truly become his bff4ever if he changed his whole life lol. Whereas if he thought Griffith genuinely couldn’t give a shit about him he wouldn’t even try.

And then I think a similar way of thinking could be informing his behaviour during the Black Swordsman stuff. Like, I know I meant something to you, deny it all you want, I’m going to find you and force you to acknowledge me.

But after NGriff ditches him I think he kind of gives that up? Which is why he’s able to put his revenge thing on hold – it starts to feel futile when he genuinely believes NGriff feels nothing at all towards him. (Which is why that beating heart is a game changer in waiting js.)

idk lol I’m just thinking outloud.

And yeah like, it’s textual that he feels guilty for Griffith’s breakdown, from letting Casca stab him to:

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But I do wish we saw more of that post-Eclipse other than the recurring moments when he thinks about Griffith kneeling in the snow and mopes lol. It kind of makes sense to me that we don’t see Guts feeling guilty after the Eclipse because I feel like the point of the Eclipse rape was to piss Guts off enough that he’d basically channel his guilt into rage, but I feel like we should still see more inner conflict. Not that we don’t see any, but yk, I always want more.

Ohhh, man, I remembered he got knocked out but I thought we didn’t get to see the exact moment when he came to … so I thought, you know, we don’t know exactly how much he’s heard?

But I went to check and this is him twitching awake after all the juicy details have been laid out:

Which is honestly even better than him hearing all that and not reacting.

He does get to hear these parts though:

I honestly like to interpret his expression here as loathing directed specifically @ the God Hand sans Griffith/Femto, for waltzing in and ruining everything lol.

And I agree with everything else you brought up! Like, Guts can actually be pretty confident and even cocky, so it’s not like he’s constantly putting himself down. He’s just a little naive, bless his heart.

I can’t WAIT for Neo-Griff to finally snap lol

It’s gotta happen. Even if Guts’ storyline is wall-to-wall disappointment I know in my soul NGriff’s is going somewhere good.

And yeah I’m sure the parallels aren’t lost on Guts lol, but i guess it’s not quite as direct as essentially saying ‘being able to sacrifice someone is proof that you love them.’ Also yeah I’m into that interpretation of his anger there, like imo he hates Femto on a personal level for being an evil version of the dude he loves, but he def hates the rest of the Godhand for facilitating it. His reaction when seeing Slan in the troll cave was even more overwhelmingly rage-y than when he saw NGriff on the Hill of Swords, eg.

Are you afraid about the “happy ending” Miura promised?

lol extremely

though idt he really promised a happy ending so much as a not completely bleak and depressing ending, so it’s not as ominous as it could be

like it sucks for me because my ideal ending is basically guts once again succumbing to his obsession with griffith, meeting with him again in a climactic manner, realizing griffith is actually still stupid in love, some kind of visual suggestion of equality or guts looking down at him bc their persistant feelings equalize them despite everything, and then guts finding some kind of emotional catharsis in that, hopefully while one or both of them is dying

but the story ending with guts still obsessed with griffith would probably be a negative ending according to like, the themes of berserk lol

i think there are ways it could be swung in a more positive direction. eg remove casca from the possibility of a romantic happily ever after with guts, lean on threatening the possibility of guts ending up like skull knight, eg stripped of humanity and lost to the armour and immortal and doomed to seek revenge forever or w/e, and put guts’ genuinely conflicting, based in love, human feelings for griffith opposite that. in this way immortality would be associated with monstrousness and death with humanity, and guts and griffith dying together, or just guts dying, or w/e would be extra perfect, particularly if one or both fail to go through with killing the other at the last minute

(the whole sacrifices doomed to hell thing kinda fucks with that but it fucks with any possible non-depressing ending no matter what lol, so miura is either going to have to go dark with guts’ ending or do what i suggest and make him not actually irrevocably destined for hell after all)

like idk i know what i want and i think there’s enough groundwork laid for it to be possible, but there’s also groundwork laid for like, worst case scenarios too. everything’s up in the air

like man i can’t help but fear the possibility that guts is going to succumb to the beast of darkness, be pulled back yet again by his friends, and then ~overcome~ his desire for revenge/to be griffith’s equal while getting with casca. and then they idk team up with elfhelm to defeat griffith/the godhand. like i believe miura is better than that but it’s only belief, not fact :/

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ooh these are some good visuals

how long will i have to creep in darkness… until him? but femto, depicted at peak inhuman here, is just more fucking darkness.

because this is still guts scrabbling for whatever’s left of the “dazzling” griffith, the griffith who shone and chased away the darkness of loneliness. like i’ve said this before and i’ll say it again, but his revenge quest isn’t (solely) about revenge, it’s about missing griffith and desperately wanting that connection again. the rage is a convenient reason to chase him that’s more justifiable to himself than “I still want him to look at me.”

the visual metaphor of light and dark, companionship and isolation, and how constant it’s been in guts and griffith’s relationship in particular is just so fucking good

What I personally don t understand is that Casca was the reason for Guts to “hate” Griffith, so she should be an important irreplaceable person to him. On the other hand he abandoned her for 3 years and sexually assaulted her….How do this things fit together?

hahahaha… ha

true answer: miura is a misogynist hack who doesn’t really gaf about casca, and needed to get rid of her for a while because he hadn’t invented her yet while writing the black swordsman arc, and is less than concerned about whether guts even comes across as someone who genuinely cares for her.

meta answer:

whyever Miura decided to go that route, Guts’ actions after the Eclipse seem like a pretty strong indication that he wasn’t as angry on behalf of Casca as he was about Griffith transforming into a monster and destroying everything he values. Casca became a symbol of everything he lost – the good old days with the Hawks and Griffith – rather than seeing her as a person in her own right.

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And to take that a step further, remember, Guts’ pre-Eclipse revelation was that he broke Griffith’s heart when he left, and therefore he already had what he tried attaining by leaving. The Eclipse wipes that away. Whatever Griffith has become does not (apparently) love or value Guts, and is not Guts’ equal or friend.

and this fucks Guts up

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Femto raping Casca was proof that he has fundamentally changed into a monster who looks down on Guts, and Guts does drastic things when someone he loves looks down on him, thanks to his giant collection of daddy issues. Like leaving the woman he supposedly cares for in a cave and going on a self-destructive monster hunting spree.

hohoho

so i did what i said i was going to do, re-read most of the elfhelm chapters to see if i could figure anything out.

and idk how solid this is, especially considering how biased in favour of it i am lol, but i came up with this theory last night

So in 345 they’re all sitting around a table having a nice chat about important spirit realm shit.

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The world tree is a “dragon’s road.”

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The behelit also creates a dragon’s road.

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Just want to point out the little specification of “at your side” and the shot of the behelit in Guts’ pouch vs the way Guts’ cloak billows to give us a view of that pouch as he walks towards Casca.

SO dragon roads.

Schierke pipes up with a question absolutely no reader was ever curious about and is therefore probably very relevant:

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With me so far? These spirit woods are lands associated with spirit trees, like Flora’s. These trees feed off the world tree like parasites, keeping it pruned to manageable levels until Griffith destroyed a bunch of them to make way for his high fantasy genre shift.

The world tree is a dragon’s road – it’s not a real tree, it’s a fissure between realms:

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Again, the same kind of thing the behelit creates.

Eventually they head on over to Danann’s palace, which turns out to be a giant cherry tree:

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It’s a really impressive spirit tree, maybe the last surviving one, or one of the last at least. Elfhelm is probably its associated spirit woods.

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Danann specifies that Guts and Casca’s first meeting will take place right by her spirit tree.

And check out the last image of the most recent chapter:

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Quite an ominous shot of that tree.

Bear in mind that Danann sensed that Casca was afraid of Guts and refused to let him join Schierke and Farnese in her dreams because of this. It seems a bit strange that as soon as Casca wakes up she’s sending her straight to Guts then, doesn’t it?

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Also bear in mind that Skull Knight, who reminds Puck of the elves and is implied to be the Elf King’s oracle, is the one who both told Guts the Elf King could heal Casca, and warned him that “there’s no guarantee your wish will be her wish.”

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Schierke thinks the oracle is the Moonlight Boy, because she doesn’t know it’s Skull Knight. But this is how we know that “oracle” is connected to the Elf King. And this is how we know it’s Skull Knight:

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And check out this vaguely ominous thread that hasn’t been picked back up yet. Is someone using Guts…? Skull Knight, or the person Skull Knight is playing messenger for – the Elf King? (tbh it looks like he’s justifying it to himself by saying whether he interferes or not causality has the final say anyway. calling Guts “a factor.” A factor in what? What is being facilitated, and by whom? Maybe someone who understands the flow of causality, who is using it for their own ends?)

I also want to note that I had zero memory of Flora asking if Skull Knight is using Guts lmao, the only reason I went back to this part was to prove that SK is the Elf King’s oracle. But I am super stoked that it fits my theory perfectly.

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SO yeah the Elf King’s oracle is the one telling Guts this. Seems probable that Danann has been planning to try healing Casca’s mind since long before they showed up on her doorstep asking her to.

Also of note in this scene with Skull Knight on the beach:

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This is the explanation for why NeoGriffith had Flora killed.

To
confront him, one must also exist outside the story. Who exists outside
the story to some extent that we know of? Skull Knight, the branded, and witches.

AND one more thing of note in this scene is Skull Knight warning Guts about the armour:

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All this foreshadowing is thrown into the same chapter, and I think it could be all tied together.

So, my theory:

Danann is using Casca and Guts, for two possible reasons, maybe both:

1. By healing Casca’s mind and sending her to meet Guts right beside her spirit tree, she knows or hopes that Casca’s memories will send her into despair right there, with the behelit at hand, thereby opening a dragon’s road right beside her powerful spiritual tree thing which feeds on dragon’s roads. Maybe giving Danann and Elfhelm a boost of energy/spiritual power for something.

2. Weapons.

If Casca becomes an apostle, she will be branded, ergo a step outside the reason of the world and able to harm Griffith. She will be powerful. And Griffith will have a weakness against her – that whole wacky fetus thing that made him save her life. It’s entirely possible that Danann knows this, as she has scryers checking things out.

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(Granted Casca would also have her own weakness against him, that demon instinct which recognizes NeoGriffith as a messiah, buuut I’m js Ganeshka’s reaction to him was rather similar to Casca’s old feelings, which she’s had several years of experience dealing with and ignoring. Plus he’s responsible for destroying her life and everything that traumatized her into insanity, and Danann has a lot of magic. That potential weakness isn’t the be all end all, is what I’m saying.)

There’s also the foreboding foreshadowing regarding Guts succumbing to the armour. Skull Knight’s warning back there, the Beast of Darkness taunting him here

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and this scene

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which directly connects Casca regaining her sanity and ~doing something~ ominous to the Beast of Darkness lying in wait. And I feel like Casca choosing to make a sacrifice like Griffith did and become a monster would be a pretty solid incentive for Guts to succumb to his inner beast.

And I’m js Beast of Darkness Guts, with his own foot outside the reason of the world thanks to the brand, and lbr Femto/NGriff’s own host of issues that led to him letting Guts go three times so far, would also be a powerful weapon.

It’s also worth noting that we’ve been warned time and again about the dangers of Guts succumbing to the armour, losing his humanity, etc, and he’s been saved every single time he reaches a danger point by Schierke, or the Astral Kid, or whatever. At some point he has to actually succumb properly, at least for a while, for long enough to shake up the narrative and have Consequences, or there’s no point to all this ominous foreshadowing.

Elfhelm is opposed to NeoGriffith and Falconia and the whole merging of planes thing, it’s suggested that Guts is being used by Skull Knight, who seems to be allied with/working for the Elf King, and all these little ominous moments fit together very well.

Plus let’s be real here – Skellig is obviously too good to be true.

Like, I don’t think there’s a dark underbelly to Skellig, any more than I think there’s a dark underbelly to Falconia. I don’t think they’re secretly killing children or Danann’s going to transform into a cackling demon or that the cloying wholesomeness is all a performance to trick Guts and co lol. But I do think that despite the cutesy elf antics and unicorns and sentencing Magnifico to dishwashing duty etc, they would be very capable of ruthlessness. This is Berserk, after all.

tbh I’m really feeling the behelit dragon’s road thing, all those expository details in the recent chapters add up v neatly.

And I think the weaponizing Cacsa and/or Guts theory is a little more of a stretch, more of a “well it would logically follow” rather than having directly suggestive evidence of its own, but still fits nicely imo. And boy, would that not twist the whole revenge theme in an interesting way? If there’s another secondary antagonist who wants Guts and/or Casca to go and kill NeoGriff for their own reasons? Maybe even for the greater good – but at the expense of our protagonists?

seisans
replied to your post “seisans
replied to your post “cut for not actually spoilers but the…”

yeah, it’s just like. regressed casca even had that moment when she was trying to touch neo griff but couldn’t, plus like the stupid fetus, and idk how the gremlin man (miura) thinks so i’m assuming the worst. but yeah you’re probably right

there is a shit ton of stuff that can and should be taken into account tbh, and that post was rly just a v distant overview. i think… idk there’s probably enough evidence to make a case for either scenario happening – guts moving on vs guts failing to move on. and like the fetus eg could figure into either of those scenarios, by maybe being a source of conflict between casca and guts, or maybe uniting them.

i think there’s also enough evidence to argue that guts failing to move on isn’t necessarily a negative/tragic thing either, tho i kind of framed it as one. like there’s a scenario where guts trying to “let go of his obsession” is essentially guts kidding himself and just burying and refusing to acknowledge his mixed feelings instead of confronting them, using casca as an escape

that’s my #1 hope rly.

but yeah at the end of the day this all kind of rests on the premise that when berserk is over it will overall be a good solid comprehensive story lol, and that’s based on what I’m picking up on as important themes, which is kind of itself a distant hope.