I doubt very much Miura intended for the reader to be critical of their behaviour, but honestly so much surrounding post-Eclipse Casca skeeves me out wrt ableism and the way she’s so infantalized and objectified (like literally, treated as an unthinking object to be protected rather than a person), both by other characters and by the narrative itself, that I def don’t think you’re overreacting.
It’s something I blame Miura for more than Farnese bc I really don’t think we’re intended to see her as insensitive. and imo Farnese comes across better than anyone else when it comes to treating Casca as a person with feelings. like eg the scene where she loses her temper and then apologizes to her directly – as opposed to say, Guts, who yelled at her all the time back when he interacted with her but never apologized to her. Or as opposed to the rest of the rpg group who tend to treat her like a prop or an extension of Guts or Farnese imo.
But yeah imo there are still a lot of instances of people, including Farnese, talking about Casca and thinking about Casca as if her only value is to motivate Farnese, and the narrative doesn’t really condemn that line of thinking, it’s just part of the general portrayal of post-Eclipse Casca, and it sucks.
i am so sleepy + i have no idea what i’m really going for here but like
i think trees and branches are like, symbols of connection or reaching for connection or smthn like that. or like, at least when they’re white
“since when was it that despite her bent shape lady farnese came to have feelings for me beyond those of a mistress for her servant?“
ok those branches aren’t white but i just like the similar phrasing lol
like i just glanced at a couple pages of serpico’s backstory and was like, woah that’s a lot of branch imagery lol. and there’s obviously the whole creation of the world tree, ganeshka’s loneliness breakdown, etc.
i am putting a pin in this for if i think of more significant seeming tree imagery. or yk pending how the whole fantasia arc goes. world tree fast travel system branches, casca having a breakdown beside danann’s cherry tree, yadda yadda yadda.
i mean it just seems to fit this whole idea i got where like half the fantasy content of berserk works as a metaphor for interpersonal relationships and all that jazz.
I have this fear that Farnese is going to die in part to motivate Serpico so I’d prefer this to that ngl, tho I want both to live.
And it’s possible I guess, Serpico’s had less development than Farnese overall so he might be more expendable, and it would be kind of ironic if after Serpico being p much entirely motivated by wanting to protect Farnese, he was the one who got killed.
I wouldn’t really bet on it though, mostly bc at this point in Farnese’s narrative, I feel like it wouldn’t further her story much – she’s no longer as attached to Serpico as she had been, or dependent on him in any way, so all it would really do is make her angry or sad.
Tho actually now that I think about it what if things go wrong with Casca’s return and she ends up killing Serpico? (Uses behelit, sacrifices Farnese, apostles kill their sacrifices themselves from the looks of it so monster!Casca tries but Serpico leaps in to save Farny and dies instead, then Skull Knight bursts in like the kool aid man, does his thing w/ sealing the Godhand away, and everyone else manages to escape and survive. w/e) Like i’m js farnesca/griffguts parallels would be super fun.
Or yk it would still be kind of fitting if he died in some other circumstance by sacrificing himself for Farnese, but I think that would be pretty boring unless Casca killed him.
2/2 I just feel like any kind of character development she could have
had was just quickly glazed over like she went from someone who got off
on watching people get burnt to death and wanting to torture serpico for
‘fun’ or whatever to this simpering woman who’s working on bettering
herself way too fast I wish her journey was explored more and not just
kind of put as if she met guts and suddenly all her problems were solved
and she’s just perfectly good other than a little weak and scared now
Idk I agree with most of this but I think you’re being a little harsh.
Like it’s been a while since I re-read any of the later chapters but I never really got the impression that Schierke was keeping her ability to help Guts to herself, more that she’s just… the only person in the RPG group proficient enough w/ magic to help keep the armour at bay. Like Farnese is still a beginner and no one else knows any magic, so there’s nothing they can really do. (Also I’m kind of loling at calling Schierke childish, like, she is a child.)
But otherwise I pretty much agree, there’s nothing I particularly like about Schierke and her crush is annoying and offputting.
Also wrt Farnese, describing her as “simpering” makes no sense at all. The word means coquettish in an affected, ingratiating way, and that is basically the opposite of Farnese’s character lol, both as an enemy and as an ally.
But other than that I mean yeah I do agree that her character development was not well written. I like both antagonist Farnese and ally Farnese but it’s hard to see them as the same character, because Miura really like, did not show how one became the other lol.
It might be believable that after having her religious faith shattered she’d latch onto Guts as something new to believe in, as an emotional crutch, but it’s never depicted that way really – deciding to follow Guts has been 100% positive for her, while religion was 100% negative and evil, even though they’re both presumably filling the same emotional niche for her. (And if they’re not basically the same drive pointed at different objects of belief, God vs Guts, then Farnese’s sudden switch from religion to Guts is actually super weird and nonsensical, so either way it’s not well done.)
Like, her black and white, us vs them, pure vs impure, etc, thinking should still have been an issue, at least at the start of her time with the rpg group, even if the subjects of that thinking have changed. Or if Miura wanted that type of thinking shattered with her religious faith, she should have had difficulty adjusting to seeing the world in shades of grey. Her related buried guilt and self-doubt should also not have just conveniently disappeared, aside from one vague attempt at an apology for burning witches alive to Flora lol.
(Man now that I mention it it would’ve been fantastic to see Farnese struggling with letting go of her pure vs impure thinking and more slowly accepting that everyone is greyscale, and finding self-acceptance in that too. What a missed opportunity.)
Something else that would’ve been good is showing that Farnese dedicating herself to taking care of Casca, learning magic, etc, is a continuation of her tendency to like, violently throw herself into things. “become the storm yourself,” that life philosophy. Like if she was overeager to an off-putting, borderline unhealthy extent. Or if she wholeheartedly devoted herself to taking care of Casca because of her guilt issues, but again in a not-wholly-positive, overcompensating way.
I think this is a basic problem with Guts’ entire side of the narrative actually lol. It’s too damn good. Everyone is bettered by hanging out with him, plain and simple. Not even two steps forward, one step back – everyone just happily grows as a person on his stupid journey. Farnese replacing God with Guts causes no problems for her or anyone else, because Guts is just a good person to build your entire life around, when imo there should be some critique there wrt the concept of building your life around anything or anyone. The problem isn’t what you’re worshipping, it’s that you’re worshipping, but idk if Miura sees it that way.
Tho I still have hope that this apparent sense that Guts is just the fucking bees knees who changes everyone around him for the better could be subverted. I mean we’re about to get the payoff of his whole quest, and he’s just been compared to Griffith again specifically wrt how Farnese feels about him vs how Casca felt about Griffith, which is promising. Like, Golden Age Griffith was the same wrt everyone around him growing and being happy bc of his ~conviction~ and the feeling that they’re all going places, it’s something Guts comments on when he first meets the Hawks lol, and we all know how that turned out.
But even if that is the case it doesn’t really fix the 150ish chapters of Farnese’s super quick, super positive character growth lol. Idk it’s a disappointment to me too. I still like “both” Farneses, but I really feel like Miura half-assed the hell out of her development.
anyway ty for the asks and sorry for being a bit nitpicky, i mostly agree with you, just my contrary streak kicks in if i think some crit is unfair lol.
tbh it doesn’t seem likely to me. Farnese’s “crush” on Guts is compared to Casca’s on Griffith, which isn’t a promising prelude to romance lol, and to me it seems like Farnese herself doesn’t really consider it a genuine romantic thing so much as admiration bc he shattered her worldview and changed her life.
But yeah I feel you about wanting Farnese to be happy. I want her to become like a full-fledged witch – she genuinely loves helping people, and we know she’s never been happier than when protecting Casca and feeling like she can contribute something unique, and imo it’d be great to see that aspect of her character growth focused on, whether she ends up in a relationship or not.
As for Guts + romance I think it’s either Casca or bust (wherein bust = an emotional and somewhat suggestive climax w/ Griffith lbr), and I’ve got my fingers crossed hard for the latter.
oh man. ok i’m sorry this is honestly a terrible answer, i got really carried away when it came to griffith lol.
i have a more thoughtful, meta-y answer to a similar question here and i’m linking it to sort of compensate for just answering this with a picspam lol.
under a cut bc it’s long.
Guts:
standing up w/ like 50 broken bones and marching up a staircase with his giant sword to try to kill his ex bc he said he’s beneath his notice:
this one might actually be my favourite guts character moment:
Guts finally getting close to moving on and recovering:
sums it tf up:
i wanted one moment that shows guts’ like, tender, caretaker side, and this is the most painful:
a purely self-indulgent choice bc i love that “he’s back” feeling so much lol:
and how could I not include this:
Casca
love the concept of casca being invested in the dream:
her proud smile here:
physically lashing out with her sword in a rage:
in a good au casca went on to lead the still-undefeated band of the hawks:
sure it’s ruined two pages later, but man i love her attempt at a last stand:
Farnese
i love her early black and white thinking tbh:
this is my favourite character establishing moment for farnese:
stabbing a demon tiger in the eye is probably my fave farnese moment overall:
Serpico
I love this early moment where he tells a dude he doesn’t even know his tragic life story while vaguely hitting on him and makes him uncomfortable:
like he’s a weird but enjoyable combination of diplomatic and offputting:
preventing guts from getting himself killed the same night he tried to kill him himself:
And finally a more dramatic, serious moment because the first three moments there rly don’t do him justice and I love his backstory:
Griffith (I will try to show restraint but I could spam almost every panel he’s in honestly)
I’m including Femto and NGriff:
what an introduction:
getting himself killed for guts:
somehow simultaneously maintaining denial while essentially confessing his feelings:
this:
but especially when paired with this:
there’s a lot to love about this scene but this is the best moment imo:
every single second of chapter 17 but let’s sum it up with this:
this whole exchange but especially this first panel here:
he just heard that he’s achieved one of the most important steps on the way to his dream and this is what he fucking does:
sorry but this is the coolest moment in anything ever:
again literally all of tombstone of flame really but let’s go with this moment in particular:
all of the second duel as well:
of course:
obviously the whole monologue but it always comes back to this:
fuckin ripping my heart out:
and again:
and again:
i’m gonna keep going like this:
The Moment Of Despair Is The Touch Of Guts’ Hand:
and then:
i’m sorry i really did mean to be more restrained than this lmao:
the entire moment of the sacrifice but i’m picking this panel to illustrate it:
can you believe:
OBVIOUSLY but this also includes Griffith blaming it on the fetus because that is so in character:
Guts: tbh… his tenacity – his
attitude that you have to see things through to the end, and how in most
stories this would be shown to be a virtue, but in Berserk while it is
often shown as admirable, it’s also one of his biggest flaws at times.
It’s there in touching moments, like when teenage Guts risks his life to
take a flower to a hill, and it’s also there when he vows revenge and
abandons Casca and Rickert to go off on a two-year monster hunting
spree. It’s there when he insists on getting Casca magically healed
despite Skull Knight’s warnings and his own musing that things could
turn out very bad if her sanity is forced back. It’s there when he
becomes obsessed with becoming Griffith’s equal, explicitly ignoring all
evidence that Griffith already cares for him. It’s there every time he
refuses to die.
The closest Guts came to abandoning a course
of action once he’d decided on it is when he switched from his “dream”
to realizing he wants to stay with Griffith, right before the Eclipse,
and that would’ve been the best thing Guts could’ve done, if he’d had
the chance. Switching from revenge to helping Casca is close too (and
pretty explicitly paralleled to leaving Griff vs returning and staying),
but he’s doing it with the thought in his head that it’s temporary
(”when this journey ends, I’ll…” [pictures Griffith]), and his
tenacity is still there in how he’s not letting doubts and warnings
deter him from fixing Casca, so it’s a bit of a double-edged sword.
Idk man I love Guts’ doggedness, both as a virtue and a flaw.
My
favourite Guts moment though, now that’s difficult. I’ll go with one of
the best early moments, during the Black Swordsman arc, for the sake of
making things easy. It’s my first favourite moment, at least:
Like
half his bones are broken, he couldn’t do more than crawl on his
stomach and beg for attention before this when faced with the object of
his revenge obsession, but he stands up and marches up the stairs with
his sword when Femto says he’s beneath his notice. I love him.
Griffith:
Griffith is one of my all-time favourite characters period so narrowing
it down to one thing is hard, but I think if I had to settle on one it
would be his emotional repression? The way he doesn’t realize he’s in
love with Guts until it’s too late, the way he refuses to acknowledge
his feelings of guilt and self-loathing, the way he comes so close to
getting more emotionally healthy and open with Guts at his side but then
Guts leaves without a word and everything falls to pieces, the way he
falls back on the fact that he “won” Guts in a duel and fights for him
again because he can’t articulate why he can’t stand the thought
of Guts leaving, the way he self-sabotages himself into a dungeon
because he’s so unfamiliar with his own emotions that he can’t deal with
his feelings after Guts leaves, etc.
Funnily enough, in contrast
to that, I think my favourite Griffith moment (lbr my favourite Berserk
moment) is probably his moment of greatest self-awareness:
But like the reason this monologue is so effective is because
he’s so emotionally repressed, and it took him a year of nothing but
torture and self reflection for him to recognize his feelings. It makes
this moment really, really shine.
Casca: I love that
she genuinely commands respect among the Hawks. It’s one of the few
really satisfying aspects of her character role and her treatment by
other characters to me – from Corkus getting scared and apologizing when
she threatens him, to Griffith giving her the most important job in his
capture Doldrey ploy, to the Hawks stepping back so she can take out
Adon herself and cheering her on, to being able to rally the Hawks as
their leader in the most panic-inducing circumstances, etc etc.
I think my all-time favourite Casca moment is this:
God she deserves this moment of glory.
Farnese: I love
her “you just have to become a storm yourself” thing. The way her
reaction to fear is to join the thing that frightens her and become the
frightening thing. I loved it when it lead to her doing terrible things
like burning people alive and I loved it when it lead to her doing great
things like joining Guts and learning to defend herself and Casca and
becoming a witch.
My favourite Farnese moment is a pretty obvious one but what can I say it’s so good:
Fighting
off a demon tiger taking out whole crowds with a swipe of its paw, with
a candlestick, at a fancy ball, man, how can you not love her?
Serpico:
I like the contrast between his chill and diplomatic
go-with-the-flow-ness vs how solid and immovable he is when it comes to
protecting the people he loves, and how what ties those contrasts
together is a willingness to be hurt for their sakes, from dueling
people to a draw to avoid feelings of resentment towards Farnese, to
standing between her and Berserker Guts.
My favourite Serpico moment is:
Putting
himself in danger while defusing a tense situation with that chill
diplomacy. And not even for Farnese, but for Guts this time.
Also related to that last ask but my response was getting way too long so I’ll mention this separately:
I feel like part of my problem with the current lighter tone is that a lot of the darkness, specifically the emotional angst, of Berserk so far was based on the fact that all the main characters are traumatized and have shitty coping mechanisms. Guts Casca and Griffith sure, and also Farnese and Serpico (neglected throughout childhood and coped by burning people alive and terrorizing ppl, and abused by peers and Farnese + weird expectations from his mother and coped by becoming an unfeeling doormat). And none of them have really dealt with it?
Griff transformed into a monster so fine his story has a conclusion, and Casca’s is maybe coming to fruition soon, but Guts’ trauma just transferred from rape and abuse to feeling manpain about Casca’s trauma, which is a huge disservice to both characters if it’s never brought up again and dealt with.
And while Farnese is bettering herself we’ve never really seen her actual issues addressed, and her whole sadism burning ppl alive thing just kind of easily melted away in favour of a new helping someone philosophy. I wished for more internal conflict there, basically, and I hope it’s addressed in the future but for now it seems like a pretty abrupt change and a missed opportunity. And Serpico is still Serpico. He hasn’t changed a whole lot but his issues haven’t negatively impacted anything either.
In the Golden Age all the psychological baggage these characters had contributed to its absolute disaster of a climax. And I’d love, love to see that happen again, esp with Farnese and Serpico adding more shit to the pile, or I’d love to see their issues flare up but have them manage to overcome them now that they’ve grown in a happier, healthier contrast to the Golden Age.
But throughout the Millenium Empire arc all these issues the characters have never really affected them adversely. I’m hoping that now that we’re delving into Casca’s psyche things will start to snowball and we’ll see that these traumas haven’t just been forgotten but only put on hold for a while so this group can be happy and hopeful.
But for now I do miss reading about fucked up characters and the internal and external challenges posed by their issues.
The weird part is actually, that sometimes I think, objectively, the manga hasn’t become lighter since the Golden age. The Lost Children and Tower of Conviction arc were pretty fucked up and even now we’ve had troll rapes, the daka demons ripping out uterus es, people being eaten alive, a lot of really weird ass and perverted monstrosities.
But it’s simply that the fucked up Ness isn’t viscerally gripping anymore.
In the Golden age we we’re first introduced to characters, made to care about them by slowly revealing both their strengths and flaws and slowly, insidiously piling on the foreshadowing and layers of emotional as well as external fuckery.
It felt so dark because we cared about the people it was happening to.
In recent chapters the characters are introduced along with the ‘darkness’ bringing it forward as a part of their plotlines. Even Farnese was introduced as a sadistic pyromaniac first . Along with the horror which was the heretic related prosecution.
And only much later were we given a glimpse into the character and learnt to retroactively care about her.
I mean ultimately that worked as far as characterisation is concerned. As in I definitely care about Farnese now.
But it does reduce the emotional impact of the should have been traumatic scenes.
These are really good points. I totally agree about the grimdarkness – like I care when the protagonist has a traumatic backstory and it leads to him making unfortunate decisions, I’m less affected emotionally when random npcs are being tortured in two-page spreads for shock value.
+ tbh i don’t think it’s necessarily a mistake to introduce Farnese’s dark side first and then reveal her better nature, bc I do like when writers make you love a former antagonist and I love that about Farnese, but it definitely adds to the differing tones.
And I mean it does make sense to reverse the Golden Age format this way – now instead of beloved characters going dark, we can have dark characters learning to be better. But it really boils down for me to feeling like it’s been too easy I guess. Guts made new friends and now his hound is on a leash and now it’s the Berserk armour’s fault when he tries to murder everyone. Farnese dropped the pyromania and became a protector. And yeah for Farnese it’s been an ongoing journey as she gets braver and more competent and learns new things, and I love that journey, but since deciding to join Guts she’s never had second thoughts or felt sadistic or masochistic urges and more internal conflict for her would’ve been sweet.
But again, that’s assuming that this Guts and Friends story has all been a journey of personal growth and a brighter future, and not just the calm before the storm. So we’ll have to wait and see.
There’s definitely some moments between Farnese and Serpico which personally appear to me as echoes of golden age dynamics between Guts and Griffith, the wording in some cases seeming similar enough to almost seem like an intentional parallel.
But the parallels are also not extremely consistent ,especially in the frequent exchanging of the respective roles within the dynamic between Farnese and Serpico. In some cases it’s almost more of a twisting around of the original than a parallel. Taking into account that despite the similarities that I will go into in a moment, these are four very distinct characters.
The instance which immediately comes to mind when you say parallel is the instance when Farnese asks Serpico if he hates her. It’s very similar to Griffth’s- “You must think me vile.” moment.
There’s some other Farnese- Griffith parallels.
1. Using Control over specific people to deal with their feelings of loneliness or helplessness. Referring to Serpico/ Guts as property is a big part of this ,as is the fact that despite saying it neither of them actually mean it.
2. Farnese/Griffith starting as the commander, owner.
3.Self-flagellation
4. Guts love.
5.There’s actually some deeper things which I will come back to most probably.
6. A slight similarity in visual design.
7. Oh and them being turned on by very fucked up things and having some rather strange interpretations of sexuality and ending up in bizarre sexual situations.
the Guts-Serpico parallels come from them both being the concerned right hand men to these slightly volatile people.
there’s Griffith and Serpico parallels in this sort of veiled intensity and ruthlessness behind a calm facade. not to mention similar fighting styles.
And the fact that both of them are very single mindedly focussed on their goals which if interfered with make them prone to homicide. With Griffth it was the castle ( or so he thought) with serpico it’s protecting Farnese (or so he thinks)
and the Guts and Farnese parallel in that both of them start with being unsure of what their place is in the world and start to try the road to discovering themselves .
With Farnese/Griffith parallels I could also see a potential argument that they both rely on extreme adherence to a conviction as a defense mechanism. With Farnese it was her religion, with Griffith it’s his dream. I wonder if seeing the origins of how Farnese found her conviction could actually shed light on how Griffith came to hold the dream above all else tbh. yk, fear and wanting to become what’s feared. but that’s just un-backed-up speculation.
(also for point 7: what “very fucked up things” are you referring to that turn Griffith on? is that more of a Femto reference or am I completely forgetting something?)
you're the only one 