this always trips me up when i realize i’m scrutinizing too hard, like lmao they’re stupid kids making stupid mistakes like kids do .. even guts dramatically and silently going off on a vision quest of his own fits this … like lmao i can imagine him composing a dramatic journal entry about it hoping griffith would see it later, and basically fantasizing about the drama that would follow oh my god
@griff-guts said:
can confirm im a teenager and i sound like hamlet annoyingly waxing poetic 99% of the time so who can blame them
lmao this is all so legit
honestly it’s easy to forget bc the story treats them like adults but they’re really not
I think they don’t understand Griffith at all and probably willfully ignore a huge amount of his story.
A god complex is an unshakable belief characterized by consistently inflated feelings of personal ability, privilege, or infallibility.
I mean I’ve talked about my take on Griffith enough that I could collect it all into a book at this point lmao, but in essence no he is full of self loathing and guilt and exists by living in denial and trying to bury it.
He portrays an image of utter confidence and security, maintains it well enough that he buys his own con to an extent, but even that confident self-assured image isn’t god-complexy. His assessment of his own abilities is realistic. He knows he’s good, he has confidence in his abilities, but he also knows when he’s outclassed.
He doesn’t think by default he’s one of the people he believes are fated to change the world, he just hopes he is. He wants to see how far he can go, and not for the sake of being important, but in service to a greater goal which is fueled by disgust at the state of the world and his own sense of guilt.
He doesn’t have a falsely inflated perception of himself, if anything his self-image is much more negative than it should be.
You see any other mercenaries in Berserk who feel guilty for the enemy soldiers their underlings kill?
And like, eg, Griffith feels ashamed about assassinating people while Guts thinks he should be telling the rest of the Hawks all about it and has absolutely zero problem with burning a room full of nobles and royalty alive.
And as Casca lays out here
his confidence isn’t an ingrained personality trait, it’s something he manufactured and wears like armour, which is why sometimes it shatters and reveals the exact opposite – the guilt, the self-loathing, the insecurity – underneath.
Idk it seems like the same type of Berserk fan who calls Griffith a sociopath or a narcissist or a control freak or whatever. Like… no. That’s a wild misreading of his character, and honestly the story isn’t exactly subtle about his giant heap of issues that drive him so idk why so many people refuse to see it.
Like, re-read chapter 17 and this time look at the pictures of him self-harming too, bc that adds a little necessary context to statements like:
Like, this is so far from subtle that people just choose not to understand it lol.
(This isn’t directed at you anon, just yk, the fans you’re talking about.)
I feel like it’s true that Flora and other witches, and people with brands, and probably Skull Knight, can do things that causality/fate/whatever doesn’t like… expect. So not absolutely everything flows in the currents of causality, and they do still have the power to harm NGriff, so he took the offensive and killed a bunch first. But despite that most of their actions do still flow within causality, like they maybe have a small ability to defy fate, but it’s probably v rare that they do.
Cause I feel like we haven’t seen anyone defy fate yet.
Idk, maybe I’m overthinking it lol, but we know Guts and Casca were fated to survive the Eclipse, because they were instrumental in NGriff’s reincarnation into the world.
Flora and Skull Knight imply that Guts and co are still fating along, and meeting up with the rpg group and taking Casca to Elfhelm together is all part of it. Flora was probably playing into fate’s hands when she handed the Berserker armour to Guts. She has the ability to defy fate, but imo probably most things she does are still ordained by causality. Like I don’t think she’s tried to change anything.
The fact that they have a behelit also indicates that they’re within causality, because behelits work thru fate or whatever. They’re fated to have it right now, and the person who’s fated to use it is going to have it when it’s time.
Consequently, this also suggests that NGriff was fated to save Casca from falling rocks back at the Hill of Swords. Which suggests that his feelings are fated to exist, or at least the Casca-related, potentially fetus-driven ones lol. Jury’s out on his feelings for Guts. Tho if those feelings are still there because Guts survived the Eclipse, and Guts was fated to survive, then it stands to reason that they’re part of causality too.
The way I see it, everyone p much has free will, but everyone is shaped and moulded by circumstance (”encounters”) which is causality’s domain.
So, eg, Guts could’ve chosen not to leave the Hawks in theory. But causality ensured he was picked up by Shizu on the side of the road, that the nature of his childhood shaped him into a certain person, and that he overheard Griffith’s speech. And the person Guts’ childhood shaped him into is gonna decide to leave the Hawks under those circumstances.
So yk, everyone makes their choices based on organic real feelings and life circumstance, but fate’s still there pulling strings.
So Guts is still walking the road of causality leading somewhere quite possibly behelit-related, therefore Griffith couldn’t kill him. But the reason Griffith hasn’t killed him is Griffith’s feelings. His “commandment” from God was still “do what thou wilt.” He didn’t feel like killing Guts, and whatever Griffith feels like doing or not doing is the correct fate-ordained choice.
Like after all this shit about Guts being a step outside causality, I fully expect him to actually defy fate at some point. Or Casca, or maybe Schierke. Probably not Skull Knight, not because he can’t but bc I don’t feel like that’s his role in the story lol. Defying fate seems like it should be a significant moment for a protagonist, not a mysterious tertiary character.
Maybe even NGriff, tho idk. I feel like he might actually be like, extra beholden to fate.
Does this even make sense? lol this subject wrinkles my brain.
But yeah tl;dr I think that like, it’s not that witches, skull knight, and branded ppl are living their lives totally outside of causality and able to do whatever they want, it’s more that they maybe have a small ability to nudge things in a different direction, and we just haven’t seen that happen yet.
@freewilllife I’m c/ping this bc that post is really long to reblog imo lol
I half-wonder if this is an issue with Miura writing some of Berserk
while depressed lol, considering how utterly cynical the Conviction arc
is.
I think this is the case.Depending on the real life issues of the author…and yes I think it somehow is fitting…
Because
sometimes a relationship even an unequal one is better than being
alone, however it can turn out worse if the dependent state doesn´t
develop…
Somehow I think ( I know what a thought…most
Griffith/Guts fans do know that I suppose) that Griffith and Guts had a
dependency on each other that could have turned into a nice
relationship, but fate and their own insufficient communication skills
prevented it.
Guts wished to be the equal of Griffith…he
wished to acquire it…The way he chose was…It would have not been bad if
he had somehow come to another realisation than committing murder is his
“dream” ( That is just my priority maybe?).
Casca on the other
hand wished to maintain an unequal relationship at all cost…she wished
to be near Griffith, later Guts. It is depicted as if Casca only wished
to be Griffith´s sword since she wished to stay in his shadow…Whereas
Guts wished to obtain an own dream in order to be his equal…
Yeah there’s something to be said for Guts and Casca’s (and Charlotte’s) respective reactions to hearing Griffith’s dream speech. Even if it was a stupid speech and Guts’ decision was misguided, he’s still the only one who was like, well I’d better go out and achieve something so I can be his bff.
And it’s also very telling that Guts invited Casca along on his dream adventure – it shows that Guts is not thinking of her as an equal, he’s thinking of her as support for him, the way she was support for Griffith, rather than someone who could achieve her own dream and become an equal w/ him and Griffith.
(This probably says more about how Miura sees romantic (het) relationships as opposed to All-Important Bonds Between Men, but yk.)
Like imo the whole notion of dreams + equals is stupid as fuck, but it’s what Guts is basing his life around at that point and Casca just doesn’t figure in as a potential equal as far as he’s concerned.
Also of course I completely agree that Guts and Griffith’s relationship could’ve been exactly what they both needed, and could’ve been (and was for a time) a hugely positive influence on both of them, but fate and their own issues interfered and ruined it. Like I don’t think they were ever not equals – regardless of their stupid arbitrary standards, their feelings for each other made them equals, and I s2g the water fight is symbolic of that fact.
Like, not literally but symbolically, Griffith won the first fight, Guts won the second – the waterfight. So when Guts won a third – the second duel – it fucked up the balance and resulted in Griffith losing everything, and demonstrated that Guts was leaving based on a false premise.
(also lmao yeah the dream Guts landed on is kind of hilarious in how terrible it is. i love that you describe it as ‘committing murder’ bc it’s not exactly far off)
this isn’t a complete thought here but i wonder/hope that there’s some narrative irony happening or going to happen if anything? idk like of course the ceremony and events leading up to griffiths reincarnation as a perfect image of his dream and ideal self would try to hammer home cynicism of not needing others enough. guts kind of well with the campiness of the arc too ig. i hope this makes a little sense i haven’t read conviction in a long time.
Yeah no I get what you mean, ngl I was kind of thinking something similar while re-reading those chapters, like, everything Egg says about relationships sounds like it could come straight from a Griffith who has been burned lol. And it is the lead-up to the creation of Griffith’s perfect world, which Egg is advocating for here. So in that way it does maybe make sense to be extra cynical, reflecting back on Golden Age stuff through a whatever the opposite of rose coloured lens is.
like, maybe that’s Femto’s perception of that relationship lol.
I mean honestly this is exactly how I think Griffith thought of himself after the second duel/even tombstone of flame, word for word. And again, that’s something that could’ve changed so easily if Guts had just told him how he actually felt.
So I can’t accept it as an objective statement, but a subjective statement filtered thru bitterness + self-loathing? Kinda works.
Also yeah the extremely campy tone of this arc does kind of lend itself to more meta (in the self-referential sense, not the fandom essays sense) stuff like this imo.
My misgiving is that this seems like more thought than Miura put into it lol. But idk I should probably re-read the whole arc before I say something like that, like maybe there are indications that we’re not meant to take some of the Conviction arc themes as objective truth, and I just don’t remember/never noticed them.
every time i re-read a bit of the conviction arc i want to say something about its depiction of relationships, whether that gels with the rest of the story, etc, but it’s always so hugely daunting
in part because it seems to contradict everything i get out of the golden age lmao
like according to conviction arc themes, the fatal flaw in griffith and guts’ relationship was that it was too intense and they needed each other too much
like, according to the conviction arc
the problem here isn’t that Guts failed to understand his own importance to Griffith and therefore left, the problem was that he was important to Griffith at all. Griffith should have been able to rely on himself and no one else.
look at this:
transcription bc the writing is hard to read:
But those threatened by the dark… can by no means ever let go of a torch. All they can do is stare in blank surprise at their illuminated, disgustingly cruel selves… and continue to suffer it… And to protect their stunted self-esteem they depend on it… all the while hating it. Cravenly… deceitfully…
(They’re even both on the giant hands, and Luca and Guts both let go self-sacrificially. It’s a very direct parallel.)
Of course, this statement is extremely cynical and delivered by an antagonist. But the narrative seems to fully support it regardless:
According to the Conviction arc, Griffith was right when he said this:
And Guts was right to leave. Guts and Griffith’s problem was that they were never equals, and they admired and resented and clung to each other in turn.
I absolutely cannot reconcile the themes of the Conviction arc with the Golden Age, because that is clearly not the point of the Golden Age.
Oh but bthump, you might say, the point is that Guts and Griffith were too obsessed wtih each other while not being equals and that was a bad thing, while Guts and Casca have an equal relationship and therefore they are an example of a good relationship, just like Nina and her shitty boyfriend up there.
Well, sorry to say, the Conviction arc is also gtsca negative, here’s Casca stating the theme right before saying it also applies to her:
Stop relying on other people, Casca.
There’s also “a person hurts someone just because they’re strong” as a prelude to Guts assaulting Casca. Like, they’re not a happy healthy equal relationship either lol, either pre or post Eclipse.
Of course, it’s worth noting that the Conviction arc is very Black Swordsman-y, and therefore its “most relationships are bad, actually” message may not be wholly sincere, but may be more a reflection of Guts’ current stupidity.
eg
Will you? Because to me it looks like you got caught up in trying to kill incorporeal images of the Godhand and trying to find Griffith and completely forgot about her, only remembering the whole “save Casca” plan once you realized you couldn’t kill the images you were swinging at.
Yeah Guts, at a time like this you’re.
Someone else’s strength, Isidro’s, saved her.
And of course, Guts’ “I can do everything myself” stupidity continues until he sexually assaults Casca and finally realizes maybe he needs some people to rely on. It’s all bookended by the Beast of Darkness, and it’s later contradicted by Guts’ rpg group. I mean, he gains them because they’re all fucking clinging to him and considering him better than them lol. Farnese calls him her saint, Isidro idol worships him, there are parallels drawn between Guts and the group and Griffith and his followers a lot.
But again, by Conviction arc logic, the rpg group is bad. Following Guts is bad. But that’s obviously not the case.
But like, man, the Conviction arc just hammers in this shit about unequal relationships and clinging to others, resenting the torches in the darkness, etc etc etc, over and over and over. Even the religious stuff feels like a statement on unequal relationships – people clinging to a God like Nina clung to Luca like Casca clings to Griffith then Guts, like Griffith and Guts clung to each other. Like it’s hard to dismiss it all as bullshit. But it’s so fucking awful lol, I absolutely loathe it.
And it is directly contradicted by stuff like the fact that this is portrayed as good:
I half-wonder if this is an issue with Miura writing some of Berserk while depressed lol, considering how utterly cynical the Conviction arc is. Or maybe this is all going to come back front and centre and we’ll find out the rpg group is also fucked up and about to tear itself apart. I mean if a person hates someone because they’re weak and hurts someone because they’re strong, everyone in the rpg group should be full of resentment towards Guts. Come to think of it, the Hawks should’ve all hated Griffith. Falconia should hate Griffith. It should be another Tower of Conviction, by this logic, full of resentful baby-eating heretics lmao.
OR – is that a statement on the world Griffith overturns? Silat saying tyranny will always exist, that’s the reason of man, and Jarif responding with, yeah well Griffith’s world lies outside of your idea of reason. Like, Egg’s wish, and therefore humanity’s collective wish, was for an ideal world where that shit he says about relationships doesn’t apply, right?
I just don’t fucking know what the point is man. Some relationships are good, some relationships are bad, and there’s no rhyme or reason to which we’re saying are good and which we’re saying are bad, or why.
I will tell you one thing tho: according to Conviction arc logic, Guts and Griffith are each others’ gods. So that’s fun.
Also… because Guts and Griffith’s power dynamics shift over the course of the Golden Age, my conclusion that their issue isn’t that they’re unequal but that they’re idiots who don’t recognize until it’s too late that their feelings for each other make them equals, isn’t necessarily contradicted by any of this.
This is a pretty strong conclusive statement to be casually contradicted by a parallel to Nina and Luca an arc later.
Like Nina and Luca may be a bad match because Nina cares more for Luca than vice versa – Luca tends to see her as a responsibility lol. But that’s clearly not the case with Guts and Griffith.
But did Miura think about that, one wonders, because the parallels are very direct. Idk idk idk. Fuck authorial intent, whatever the hell Miura was going for, my reading still makes the most sense, contains the fewest contradictions, and is the least fucked up message.
ennnnnnnnnnnnh arguably like a city’s worth of people iirc lol. like, tens of thousands. of refugees.
it’s a bit of a stretch to say Guts sacrificed them, but essentially yeah if either he or Casca had died then all those tortured souls wouldn’t’ve been drawn out of the ether by their two brands, which is what destroyed everyone and allowed Griffith to resurrect himself into the world
Mozgus and the townspeople were trying to kill Guts and Casca during the climactic fight, not because they knew the ins and outs of how the brands worked but because they were like, blaming them for all the ghosty shit going on and trying to pacify god or whatever. Ironically they were completely on the right track, if for the wrong reasons, bc killing either of them would’ve saved everyone.
To be fair to Guts he didn’t know this. Puck kept this shit to himself.
On the other hand, his attitude when Mozgus is like, don’t you care that you’re trading thousands of lives for the life of one witch isn’t “I don’t believe you” but rather “i don’t give a shit, those people suck anyway” lmao
What’s kind of fucked up is that this is the narrative’s attitude too lol, like it 100% backs up Guts here. Luca even got her little statement at the end that
everyone who acted out of faith in a higher power died, while everyone who acted out of self-preservation managed to survive. Like the
narrative really did not give a shit about these people.
Forty Hawks? The most tragic of tragedies. Tens of thousands of refugees? Fuck em, they deserve it, they are the faceless violent masses. Nothin fucked up about that. (Even though both groups end up dying because they clung too hard to their faith in someone, so by Berserk’s own ridiculously cynical logic it serves everyone right.)
It is kind of weird tho, like I wouldn’t expect Guts to give a shit
about thousands of innocent people, but I would expect him to feel some
kind of way about his part in resurrecting Griffith. But the narrative
kind of just ignores that.
Also Skull Knight’s prophecy kind of muddies the waters a bit, because he says that man cannot divert the course of the festival or w/e, but like… if Guts had jumped off that tower and killed himself, festival over. If he was like, yeah good point, and broke Casca’s neck, festival over. Femto stuck in the astral plane. Thousands of people don’t die. So idk what that’s about. Maybe it’s meant to be ironic.
After all, the mock Eclipse is a reflection of the regular Eclipse. Guts and Casca both survived the regular Eclipse, and they’re meant to survive the mock Eclipse, because their presences there is what causes it. But Guts seems to believe that he’s defying fate by surviving, and it feels like the narrative is pushing that, even though logically it’s simply not the case.
Like, the mock Eclipse follows the actual Eclipse exactly even while we’re repeating the words “it doesn’t mean it will be exactly the same” and “maybe you’re like a fish breaching the water’s surface” over Isidro saving Casca and then Guts winning against Mozgus the first time (before he levels up with rocks). Guts is still on top of a giant hand focused on Griffith while someone else is saving Casca lmao. Guts and Casca both survive, just like they survived the first time. I have no idea what the story is going for here because everything played out perfectly to imitate the first Eclipse and resurrect Griffith.
So idk maybe the point is that Guts is a stubborn dumbass who is ironically playing into actual God’s (and Griffith’s) hands by defying Mozgus and maybe eventually we’ll revisit this?
Or maybe the conviction arc is so convoluted and weird that even Miura couldn’t keep track of what he was trying to say with it lol.
this is absolutely me projecting my own interp of griff but i feel like this reaction is an “i get asked this way too often and it bothers me bc i don’t want to have to answer it/bc i’m p sure i know the answer and i’m trying not to think about it”
tho to be more fun I could also see “shit was i that obvious?”
or “oh no, he’s straight.” (luckily he’s wrong)
also his reaction in the ova is more along the lines of “yes, dumbass.” or actually i think guts’ q there was ‘in what way’ so it could also be like, giggling when the hot person asks if you like them but playing it off bc you don’t want them to know you like them. I mean they are basically awkward teenagers lol.
and i guess on a more meta level i can say that the fact that griffith doesn’t answer is like, so telling. i have no idea what miura wanted me to think here if he didn’t want me to think griffith was gay. he could’ve easily had griffith say something like ‘no’ or ‘don’t be ridiculous i’m talking about your fighting’ or whatever. or, yknow, not brought up the question at all lol.
Like ok in response to that one ask yesterday I talked about how Guts is projecting his trauma here a bit, so in theory that’s why it’s brought up and why Griff couldn’t immediately shut him down, but honestly – it’s immensely unnecessary. Guts changes his tune immediately after losing lol and they become mutually pining bffs like a week later. As set-up to make Griffith seem more threatening before switching to portraying him as a good guy, it’s unnecessary bc we’ve already seen femto, he’s already imbued with a lingering senese of threat from the bs arc. Plus, yk, it’s homophobic and annoying, playing into that predatory gay shit.
There’s got to be more to it than that, or it’s like, plain old shitty writing. So that’s why it’s also an early indicator of the true nature of their relationship, and neatly foreshadows how trauma makes it impossible for them to see it. Because that takes it from bad writing to good, layered writing.
idk what miura intended but i like Good Berserk so idc.
You’re very correct, I’ve actually seen Black Sails and I loved it. Flint is probably one of my favourite protags ngl. spoilers bc i kind of just want to gush about it now lol.
It was so refreshing to see someone declare violent bloody war on the oppressive system and be portrayed as p much morally correct lol. “This ends when I grant them my forgiveness, not the other way around,” is like, one of my favourite lines. The ending was a little disappointing but it was also portrayed as bittersweet rather than happy – like we were meant to be sad that Madi didn’t get her war! it was great! so I was pretty satisfied with it overall.
Also solid ship content. Max/Anne and Max/Eleanor are both great, v interesting and complex ships, and both Flint/Thomas and Flint/Silver have their appeal. (Also Flint/Vane. You can’t tell me they weren’t enemies with benefits.)
And you just can’t beat setting up a protagonist as a mysterious dude, seriously driven by something but teasing the audience about what exactly motivates him to be so hardcore and incredibly awesome, only for the surprise reveal to be that he’s gay and motivated entirely by the loss of his relationship w/ a dude (which then turns out to be surprise endgame! truly unkillable gays and unbury your gays are the best tropes).
I mean the first half of season 3 had me a little with the focus on Miranda, but then season 4 got back on track w/ revolving around Thomas and I was ok w/ it.
Plus a lot of awesome also complex and interesting secondary characters, and a fast paced engaging plot, and a fun real world/treasure island mashup, that whole monster vs man theme which i always love w/ flint vs mcgraw (team flint tho, like one of my favourite moments of the series was the end of season 2 when he leveled that town), 2/3 endgame ships being gay, idk it was just solidly enjoyable. ty for bringing it up!
idk if this is funnier in actual berserk or a modern au but either way i’m dying. poor griffith. he’s lucky guts has low self esteem and would be incredibly jealous anyway
I’m sorry but I really don’t have much of a clue lol, I’m very out of the ASOIAF loop. Maybe Brienne and Arya? They’re the sword women (well Arya’s a kid but w/e) right? Also idr any specifics beyond somewhat villainous with interesting fatal flaws of some sort lol, but I have this vague idea that I’d like Cersei maybe.
But yeah all I have to go on is tiny bits of fandom osmosis lol. It’s not likely I’ll ever actually get into it, but in the off chance I do I’ll revisit this. Ty for your interest anyway even tho I have to disappoint.
Anyway now I’m curious, who are your favourite characters/relationships in the series?
costantly jokes about the eclipse rape itself potato casca donovan rape
horse and all the other sexual violence in the manga dismisses
griffith’s own sexual trauma and generally refuse to hold miura
accountable for its depiction of sexual violence on women. Smh 2/2
np thanks for the ask! And yeah I completely agree. So many people in this fandom will say, call Griffith fans rape apologists in one breath and then turn around and make rape jokes or sing Miura’s praises or excuse Guts or insist Griffith wasn’t victimized by Gennon or etc etc in the next and it’s very telling ngl. It’s really not that they (the fans who tend to make rape jokes and excuse other instances of assault specifically) give a fuck about the Eclipse rape, it’s that they were itching for their hatred of Griffith to be justified lbr.
honestly no, or at least, not in the way you probably mean. and this isn’t me being a griffith apologist and reaching to make excuses for him lol, this is me looking at each scene and getting a very different conclusion from them. like i really just don’t think they logically add up to griffith turning into a rapist demon when you examine each scene you mention, even though it’s admittedly a really really easy connection to draw at a surface level and I can see why people do draw that conclusion.
tho i guess the first duel is actually kind of a “sort of,” to be fair.
at this point the golden age stuff is really hardcore calling back to the black swordsman stuff in an excellent way, and making some v overt comparisons between Griffith and Femto, largely for the sake of… well, for the sake of establishing both similarities and eventual differences.
Griffith’s narrative is a gradual tearing down of our (and Guts’) expectations about him – we start with this larger than life mythical sort of figure who we already know eventually betrays Guts and becomes a demon, so we begin with showing his ambition, his drive, the deference his followers show him, his ability to take out Guts with one parry, etc.
He literally starts out as basically the same antagonist we saw a few chapters ago, at least in Guts’ eyes:
Like, this is meant to show the singleminded obsession that we’re led to believe is why he betrayed Guts to become a demon.
But it’s also a set up for a later revealing subversion of expectations:
In all fairness to Griffith, Guts is the one who gave him the chance to win his loyalty in a fight. Griffith didn’t demand he fight for his freedom or anything lol, he just asked Guts to join, was taken aback when Guts refused, and then leapt at the chance Guts provided to win him in a fight. He even offered to wait a while until Guts had healed more. That’s like, consent right there.
But by taking Guts up on his ridic offer he is definitely kind of pushing the limits of this whole need he has for people to freely choose to follow him, which is also an early sign that Guts is extra special.
Anyway the more overt rapey overtones to this fight, ie Guts basically offering sex slavery if he loses, say more about Guts from a characterization standpoint than they do about Griffith. Griffith is like, lol sure, clearly having no actual intention of taking him up on the sex offer.
But coming after a) the Black Swordsman arc, and b) Guts’ childhood, what this exchange does is draw a comparison between Griffith and the men who abused Guts as a child, both to the reader and in Guts’ mind. (I would argue that this is why Guts insists on fighting him – after Griffith one hitted him Guts is actually scared of him, and his rape trauma informs how he interprets and responds to fear. But I digress)
And again, this is both subverted and played straight. We should’ve already been able to draw comparisons between Femto and Gambino. We’re told about the sacrifice, told Griffith sacrificed Guts, then shown a flashback to Guts’ childhood in which his trusted father figure sold him to Donovan. That’s our explanation for Guts’ vendetta against Griffith/Femto. The sacrifice was a replay of his childhood trauma, and it fucked him up. And our introduction to Griffith here, with Guts projecting his trauma at him, plays off that.
The subversion is in the fact that Guts basically falls in love with Griffith, or insert some platonic phrase meaning essentially the same thing here, because I’m trying to be as objective as possible here lmao. It’s not another Gambino situation where Guts loved him because he was his father and the only family Guts knew, Griffith earns Guts’ love. Griffith is loveable, frankly. He risks his life to save Guts after a week, he‘s put together a merc group that behaves more like one big happy family than like a bunch of hired killers, and Guts spends the three happiest years of his life with him.
We also have Casca’s running commentary helpfully informing us that Griffith’s feelings for Guts are genuine because he’s acting very out of character around him already.
Like to bring this home, Griffith’s narrative is:
to
One reason it was so brilliant to start with the Black Swordsman arc is because it reverses the expected narrative – instead of being shocked when a character we love decides to sacrifice Guts to become a demon, we’re surprised over and over again when a character we were introduced to as a villain turns out to be motivated almost entirely by his intense, very human, very vulnerable, very sympathetic, love for Guts, rather than the expected sociopathic ambition. (And even that ambition has a very human, very vulnerable, very sympathetic source, ie, guilt.)
And, basically, the first duel starts this narrative off by emphasizing the qualities we expect to see in Griffith while simultaneously sowing the seeds of the qualities we end up surprised by. Hence the exchange that emphasizes Guts’ rape trauma – because it also foreshadows/calls back to the sacrifice.
tl;dr the first duel is rapey as part of a comparison between Guts’ childhood trauma and being sacrificed eventually, and it serves as a starting point on which Miura builds a shitload of complexity and basically immediately begins tearing down the image of Griffith as a haughty evil sociopath. Plus at this point idek if Miura had the Eclipse rape in mind – he’s mentioned he decided to have Guts and Casca get together for the sake of more Eclipse drama partway through, and this is pretty early on.
Okay, that’s one out of three. Now, as for scene #2
no I’m kidding, I’ve already written a lot about the other two scenes so I’m not going to reiterate it all here esp since my first answer was already way too long lol.
So I got a more thorough explanation here, but basically the narrative treats the night with Charlotte as consensual sex despite her “no,” and therefore I do too in my reading of the narrative, it’s shitty but so is Miura, the end. Like, I consider this scene the equivalent of Guts grabbing Casca’s tit during an argument. Yk, was that foreshadowing for Guts sexually assaulting her (again but in a dramatic scene next time), or was it Miura being a dumbass?
The super short version of that is that Griffith does have issues with consent – his own – and if you tilt your head a bit you can argue that it might inform the Eclipse rape as a reversal of power dynamics. But it’s not a preview of it, it’s a contrast.
One thing I’ll finish with, though, is that there is a scene that I think can arguably foreshadow the Eclipse rape better than any scene you mentioned, and it’s chapter 39.
This is my very very thorough explanation of it (in like the last 3rd or so of that post), but long story short everything Griffith calls the king out on is something he hates/fears about himself, and I would definitely argue that this scene shows the guilt + self-loathing Griffith feels after trying to keep Guts at his side by force, through a really unsavoury parallel to the King’s predatory lust for Charlotte, as well as the parallel between how their respective “rejections” destroy them.
So yeah, if there’s any scene that I think foreshadows Griffith’s inner darkness being rapey, it’s Griffith comparing himself to the King in a fit of self-loathing. But there’s a reason my explanation is like a million words long lol, it’s pretty subtle, and therefore kind of hard to state definitively.
Okay, and one very last thing to throw out there as a conclusion to this mess:
The Eclipse rape only has the shock value Miura wanted it to have if it’s a contrast. It’s there to demonstrate that new Evil Demon Griffith is a bad dude who does horrible things Our Griffith wouldn’t do, and draw a hard line between regular human Griffith and Femto, which is also what enables Guts to express his feelings thru murderous rage.
This is lost on a lot of fans because people are really, really eager to see Griffith as Pure Evil The Whole Time, but straight up, objectively, that is what the text is going for – the Eclipse rape is a defining character moment for Femto because it’s a harsh contrast to the Griffith we, and Guts, have come to know and love. It’s meant to shock the reader and make them – or remind them to – hate Femto lol, it’s not meant to give them a pat on the back and tell them they were right about Griffith being an evil predatory gay all along. That’s just a very unfortunate side effect.
2/2 could harbor such cruelty inside. It makes me question my reading of his character sometimes tbh
lol finally got it, ty for trying again!
and yeah I think I get what you mean.
Partly what I do is just kind of like… take the rape as read? Like fine, Miura is of the belief that people’s inner darkness comes out through sexual violence 90% of the time. We see that in Griff, Guts, most apostles, Slan, and even Farnese. It’s something he wants to like… “explore” is a very generous word lol, but let’s go with that, explore as a more generalized statement on humanity, rather than as an individual judgement on any of these characters.
I don’t want to go through the scene and find the panel lol, but Slan even gets that line during the Eclipse rape, “this is what it means to be evil. This is what it means to be human.” Or something along those lines. Miura just like, chose rape as his central illustration of the worst aspects of humanity. So it’s not really the particular cruelty Griffith harbours in him, but rather the cruelty all of humanity does.
So I just kind of nod along lol, even while I think it’s gratuitous and poorly done most of the time. It’s sort of built into the fabric of the story unfortunately.
On a characterization level… enh.
I guess I can sort of reconcile it as long as I have that authorially-provided nudge of “evil = rape by default” lol. If I just accept that and go along with it, then yeah ok, Griffith turns into a demon filled with all of humanity’s evil, and expresses his negative emotions by spitefully raping Casca. Fine, whatever. That’s what humans in Miura’s Berserk do when they become monsters.
And I mean I do think that Griffith has some cruelty in him, so there may also be a difference in how we see his character too. It’s not really a big stretch for me to believe that an evil demon version of Griffith would want to spitefully lash out at Guts and even Casca, because human Griffith’s feelings towards them were pretty complicated – well complicated wrt Guts, we didn’t really get any insight into his feelings towards Casca other than a sense of fondness + protectiveness and some jealousy at the end, and maybe some resentment at the thought of her taking care of him.
Like, it’s enough for me to believe that the evil demon version would want them to suffer.
Like
I could definitely see a part of Griffith enjoying the fuck out of being able to say this to Guts. The part that resented him for how much he loved him, that tried to strangle him in the torture chamber. Even just the part of him that frowned for a second when Guts asked why he risked his life to save him from Zodd. It’s just that as a human that part is swallowed up by overwhelming love and yk, generally being an actually good person who doesn’t want to hurt people, but ends up doing it a lot anyway and burying the guilt.
(And I will argue forever that human Griffith is pretty much the most morally upstanding character in Berserk by most standards lmao, which is part of what makes his narrative through “I sacrifice” so good.)
Anyway yeah, idk basically I think I get what you’re saying and I half agree but also I find it fairly easy to just kind of roll with it because Berserk’s gonna Berserk lol. Like, take Griffith, magically enhance this part of him:
remove/freeze this part:
and have him written by a dude who thinks rape is the best way to illustrate the darkness of humanity, and I can see how Griffith could become Femto. His lingering feelings for Guts could be enough to make him hesitate to kill him, but not so much that he doesn’t want him to suffer. Also I kind of assume that Femto retains some feelings for Guts because Guts survived the sacrifice, but that doesn’t mean he has lingering morals or anything like that. So I can kind of reconcile him wanting to hurt Guts in his Evil Demon In Berserk way, but also failing to follow through and kill him.
Like imo it’s Griffith’s Guts related irrationality coming back to fuck him up lol, rather than guilt or morality.
Idk does this make sense/address what you’re saying? I focused mainly on the eclipse rape because that’s what I jump to when talking about Griffith as a human vs Femto’s evil lol, hopefully that’s also what you meant.
there must be something in it that makes tumblr refuse to send it. like a link maybe? or ellipses apparently may also prevent it from sending lmao because tumblr is ridic. or emoticons or special characters or no spaces between sentences.
oh no, I didn’t get the first part of this ask. Is there any way you can resend it?
eta also i just checked reasons an ask might not send bc honestly i’m curious about why tumblr sucks lol, and it says this as reasons an ask might’ve not sent:
The ask included links, paragraph breaks, special characters, emoticons, or ellipses, or didn’t have spaces between sentences.
which sounds like a ridic set of restrictions to me but there you go, maybe one of those is why i didn’t get it.
i was kind of sitting on this waiting for the next time i felt the urge to complain lol, but honestly i’ve been pretty chill recently and not in the mood to dwell on negativity so this is more just a list rather than the long rant it could’ve been
so idk, the usual suspects mostly. the eclipse rape, casca’s half of the hundred man fight scene (both bc the rape attempt and bc it takes up so much fucking time in the anime), the wyald rape attempt, the possessed horse rape attempt, guts assaulting casca (with the caveat that while the eclipse rape exists i actually prefer to have that scene as well, bc it’s like, fine okay everyone’s evil inner darkness is rapey, whatever. its existence makes it extra easy to roll my eyes at the writing as a whole, basically, and i appreciate that)
then you have the boring category of scenes, like the overlong troll fight, the overlong beach fight, and the sea god dear lord. your annoying comedy scenes like every scene featuring any combination of isidro, puck, ivalera, and/or magnifico (Puck is exempted when it’s just him and Guts, otherwise he’s on thin ice). every appearance of the moonlight boy saving guts from himself, but especially the first one with the family imagery. basically any g*tsca teasing especially since guts assaulted her. I think it’s going to end in tragedy, but regardless the story should not be encouraging the reader to want them to get back together, it’s awful, but there you go.
finally there’s your occasional worryingly fanservice-y moments featuring underaged characters, which are my most hated because they are the only scenes that make me question whether i should be hyping this story from a moral standpoint. but i p much just split the difference by not spending any money on the franchise and otherwise try not to think about it, frankly.
Hm I’m not sure what post you’re referring to, but I do think that like… idk if Berserk is entirely unadaptable (did I say that somewhere? genuine q because I very well may have but I don’t remember lol), but each adaption definitely does a good job of fucking up certain aspects, and any adaption I’d like is probably an adaption most fans would hate lol, I think it would be impossible to please everyone.
Also like, a straight adaption is only going to be as good as the source, so you’d be stuck with pretty immense flaws – like the Eclipse rape is a major one. You can maybe improve it slightly
(eg I think the 3rd ova added a nice touch when they gave Casca a perspective shot of Femto that called back to her flashback of being sexually assaulted by the nobleman. It was a good way of grounding the audience in Casca’s point of view for a moment instead of purely objectifying her and illustrating what the assault means for Casca in a way the manga entirely failed to do. Then of course the ova immediately ruined that by making the scene super long, objectifying Casca anyway, and adding that ridiculous soundtrack, but welp)
but ultimately you’re still stuck with the worst example of fridging a female character for the sake of manpain I’ve ever seen. You can’t get rid of that fridging either because like half of Berserk is about Guts rescuing Casca and taking her to Elfhelm. Casca being a non-entity is fundamental to the plot.
But if you do start really changing the story you’re going to piss fans off.
Also yeah I think that like… the subtext makes adapting the story extra difficult, and I don’t just mean the gay subtext (to be fair the ovas embraced it to an extent) though that’s def part of it, but the fact that Berserk is actually a pretty subtle story in a lot of ways. Like the reason I was able to write 15k words basically just explaining my understanding of Griffith’s narrative lol is because 90% of his story is actually subtext, and again not just gay subtext. The fact that he’s driven by guilt is technically subtext, the reason he becomes emotionally dependent on Guts is subtext, the reason he’s obsessed with his dream is subtext, how he wants to change the world is subtext, the reason he has a breakdown when Guts leaves is subtext, his self-loathing is subtext, the reason he makes the sacrifice is subtext, etc etc.
It makes for a very engaging and rich story and it’s the reason I’ve had so much fun picking it apart for ages, but it also means there are going to be differing interpretations of it, even when the subtext is really really obvious. Like it’s very clear to me that the people who adapted the 97 anime didn’t really understand some of the story lol, even while they were adapting it nearly shot for shot most of the time, and you can see that lack of understanding in mistakes like turning Griffith’s scratch marks into a giant scar in the scene after he sleeps with Charlotte. They went with what the image looks like at first glance in the manga without giving any thought to whether it actually makes sense or means anything.
so differing interpretations of the story are def going to mean that an adaption can’t please everyone because like… even if you’re as true to the source material as humanly possible, you have to make choices when you’re filming it, from directing voice actors to music cues to how long to linger on a shot to the tone evoked by a colour palette, to just interpreting what we’re seeing in a panel, etc. Your own understanding of the source is always going to shine through.
another good example is the way the anime adds guts’ theme to the scene where he asks casca to leave with him. the manga’s tone was surprisingly casual and bordered on ominous with the way it immediately transitioned to snake man and the behelit making their ways to the scene of the eclipse. but the anime’s music choice turns it into a signficant moment of character growth and uncomplicated romance. But then if I adapted it and added the underlying sense of ominousness and highlighted Guts’ non-committal phrasing and his general attitude as negative, that would frustrate a lot of fans.
Anyway all that said, I don’t think it’s unadaptable because ngl I can envision an adaption I’d personally love, but it’s definitely impossible to make an adaption that every fan would agree is great, probably moreso for Berserk than most stories. The 97 anime comes closest, but even the acclaim it gets is hardly universal.
(god black swordsman casca/farnese is peak. farnese all fucked up by religion and weird sadomasochistic self-loathing and black and white thinking and casca super cynical and instantly done with farnese’s spoiled rich kid thing. their meet-cute is farnese capturing casca followed by this possession scene. like ugh it could be so good and complex and hot.)
not sure if there’s any more info rn than what anon said, guess we’ll find out soon. imo it’d be neat if it was another novel.. or maybe an ova by a different studio than the latest anime
yeah i plan to. everything i’ve heard about it makes it actually sound pretty good tbh, like it seems like it incorporates a lot of the kinds of things i enjoy in berserk. and making an apostle the protagonist of a spinoff story is an a+ concept in general.
but i haven’t heard anything about that announcement so i have no idea. I don’t really keep up with berserk related news lol, but hey if anyone else has an idea plz chime in.
How do you interpret the scene where Griffith reaches for Guts’ throat?
I’ve read a lot of different takes and enjoy them all quite a bit. Personally I feel that Griffith almost wants to strangle Guts after finally seeing him after almost a year of constantly obsessing over Guts leaving him while he is physically tortured, like he blames Guts for his psychological torture (and is in more pain from that, and not the physical). Guts feels it and doesn’t care and possibly believes he deserves..
Deserves Griffith’s
hatred. The one other comrade (omg I forgot his name???) sees this
exchange and is actually taken aback by them both.
Despite his rage and ill feelings towards Guts, however, Griffith can’t
even make himself act out in strangling (also because he’s weak af but I
mean emotionally) because deep down he is, surprised to admit to
himself, elated to see Guts again and to be held by him. This is just
my current favorite take but I won’t argue its accuracy!
oh i pretty much agree. i think griffith definitely wanted to kill him there. not “wanted” as in so direct that if he, say, had a gun he would’ve shot him, but more “wanted” the way casca wanted to murder guts when he came back so spent a while swinging a sword with intent to kill but then kind of freaked out when she actually stabbed him.
if he had the physical ability to kill him there i don’t think he would’ve been able to go through with it, but yk, he would’ve probably strangled him for a few seconds before letting go
though i don’t think guts really noticed imo, because if he did i feel like… idk his interactions with griffith up til the eclipse would be different. guts would be more hesitant maybe, if griffith tried to physically lash out bc he blames him for his torture/emotional vulnerability that led to a year of torture, and guts realized that. He’s good at burying his feelings of guilt, but idk if he’s that good.
But ia that if he did notice then his reaction wouldn’t be like, outrage or anything, it would def be guilt.
ngriffs true emotional breakdown moment will happen when guts touches him again. miuras just a coward who won’t write it
i could still see it happening
especially after all the emphasis on neogriffith’s untouchability (and rickert being able to slap him), or at the very least i could see a significant touch between them, even if it doesn’t cause a breakdown
but i mean ~i still believe~ berserk’s going to get real gay again when guts and ngriff yk, finally end up in a scene together
There is really something to be said about the significance of physical contact between Guts and Griffith.
Like the fact is that this intense moment of Guts racing for Griffith, wondering what on earth he can possibly do, is a lead-up to a single touch that sends Griffith into despair. This touch is what causes the Eclipse.
A similar physical touch marks the moment Griffith thinks of when he wonders when Guts gained such a strong hold over him:
Their first duel is the only fight either of them ever engage in, as far as I recall, featuring direct physical contact rather than swords (or other weapons) clashing, and moreover, the scene depicts the sense of a gradual physical pull between them. Before the duel, Guts wakes up from a nightmare featuring his childhood trauma, falling into a near panic as he wakes up and feels a body on top of him, until he realizes she’s a woman, not a man.
Touch is highlighted as a concept to take note of here, particularly Guts’ aversion to it.
Guts remembers Griffith as the figure on a horse that he couldn’t reach before collapsing, gazing down at him:
Then they duel. The fight begins at a distance, with swords. Griffith nearly wins without touching him, and again while on a higher plane than Guts bc goddamn Miura gets a lot of mileage out of that imagery:
But then Guts bites Griffith’s sword, they lose those swords, roll down a hill, and Guts just starts punching. We get significant commentary from onlookers highlighting the uniqueness of this fight bringing Griffith down from his heights of untouchability:
As well as from Guts:
Griffith wins with a hold, and finally:
The sequence leads up to this intense moment of physical contact: Griffith pulling him up and gazing into his eyes.
Throughout the Golden Age there aren’t a lot of casual touches between them, but when we do see them touch (pre-torture) it’s usually during a very significant moment.
(Or once, casually, right after Griffith has reminisced about this particular fight:
Not particularly emphasized, but still during a nicely fitting and illustrative moment.)
Griffith remembers another moment of physical contact between them while thinking about how he loses his composure when it comes to Guts:
And this is the scene that leads to the highest point in their relationship, when Griffith admits he had no logical reason to save Guts and Guts dedicates his sword to him in turn. Plus Casca’s outrage also serves to highlight touch as a feature of the closeness of their relationship – and that relationship’s potential to destroy Griffith(’s dream):
And of course, at the climactic moment of the arc as a whole, we get this moment:
Griffith reaches down to pull Guts up to him at the beginning of the first scene we see between them (a contrast to Guts looking up at a distant Femto at the top of the stairs):
We get a nice close up of their handclasp the first time Griffith saves Guts’ life (again, pulling Guts up):
A full page the very last time Griffith saves Guts’ life:
And we get another panel of their hands when Guts lets him go and falls away from him:
Which brings me to the way there is also a particular emphasis given to the lack of
touch between them, compounding the impression that the physicality
between them is significant.
For instance, in contrast to their first fight where they lost their swords, swords – which each represent their respective dreams here – uh… come between them in chapter one, foreshadowing how dreams tear them apart and also highlighting Guts’ more immediate concern that Griffith is growing distant as he gets promoted and draws closer to attaining his dream:
(also i love having an excuse to post those 2 subsequent panels)
Eyes meeting across a vast ballroom and through a window as they smile at each other, after another reminder that Guts is planning to leave very soon:
Guts’ sword falling where we later see Griffith with self-inflicted scratch-marks:
I obviously can’t skip over Griffith thinking about Guts’ departure at the exact moment he
penetrates Charlotte, followed by Charlotte reflected in his frantic
eyes, emphasizing Guts’ absence here in contrast to Charlotte’s presence. All on the same page in 4 subsequent panels. While he’s fucking Charlotte.
Like, this is by far the gayest hetero sex scene I’ve ever seen.
Guts reaching for him fruitlessly here:
Frankly, and not fun but still unfortunately significant to the story, Femto raping Casca while staring at Guts, later compounded by the Beast of
Darkness telling Guts to do the same to get closer to him.
There’s also Femto’s use of telekinesis rather than physical force to keep Guts away from him in the Black Swordsman arc, and the aforementioned staircase of inequality between them.
And of course NeoGriffith’s distance. Both literally:
And symbolically:
Physical touch emphasizes their closeness. It punctuates the strong emotions between them. It pulls Guts up and brings Griffith down until they meet together in the middle, illustrating the fact that their emotions for each other make them equals despite their predetermined + false notions of what equality is.
Again:
It’s highlighted during the moments of their relationship that signify their emotional closeness:
It’s a contrast to the distance which signifies their relationship falling apart:
For instance, Guts holding Griffith throughout like half of the post-torture content shows us that he doesn’t want to leave again long before the story tells us that directly.
Griffith asking for his armour rather than taking off his mask, placing a physical barrier between them, shows us that he wants to keep some emotional distance from Guts, because their closeness is devastating to him. And that foreshadows his choice to sacrifice Guts to escape his vulnerability. His demon form incorporates his mask and, so far, they never touch again.
Basically physical touch is one of the tools Miura uses to illustrate their intense relationship, either through its presence or its pointed, painful absence, and I just wanted to take a moment to illustrate some of that, bc I dig it.
iv’e talked about this idea before too! and tbh it’s kinda what i’m hoping for, or something similar at least
honestly after lines like ‘the crystalization of your last tear shed,’ followed up with ‘my blood should have been frozen,’ if ngriff doesn’t cry about guts at some point i’m going to feel ripped off
and if it’s a breakdown at the very end, so much the better
yeah like people like to believe that if there are no official rules or laws in place re: censorship then it doesn’t happen, but that’s an incredibly stupid assumption lol, and i’m constantly surprised by how often i see it in arguments about subtext, queerbaiting, etc. behind the scenes of the publishing (or film or tv) industry, everywhere, there are a ton of forces at work that make it more difficult for gay content to exist than straight content.
like gay subtext is a time honoured tradition that straight people are more than practiced at ignoring, gay text is another story entirely. ihni what miura’s actual intent is, but it’s like, certainly possible that he intended for the subtext to be picked up on and incorporated into ppl’s readings of the relationship, but will never acknowledge it, at least not til the story’s long over, bc to do so would be a risk. It would hardly be the first time in media history that’s happened lol.
i mean honestly i’d never bet on griffguts becoming textually canon, even when the story’s about to end, and miura certainly hasn’t earned any benefit of the doubt from me, like i’m not going to believe he’s behind the scenes arguing with his publishers to include non-predatory gay text lmao. but hey it seems like it might be getting to be a little easier to canonize subtext these days at least, and you never know what the future will bring. maybe it’s enough to keep a little spark of hope alive.
at the very least i could easily see the strong subtext coming back with a vengeance the next time their narratives intersect.
Yeah I like Devilman a lot tbh, I’ve seen the first two ovas, crybaby, and read the manga, the sequel, and a few spinoffs. You can definitely see a lot of inspiration for griffguts in ryokira lol, and I love both ships so it’s cool to see ppl checking out one because of the other.
Also yeah honestly a devilmanesque ending for berserk (yk with the whole passionate breakdown) would be so good, I’m with you there.
I honestly HATED Wyald. I felt like the whole thing was unnecessary and was only there for shock value. We could already gather that there’s no hope after Judeau examined Griffith’s wounds. If the story continues as normal without the presence of Wyald(in the movie and someone said he wasn’t in the anime either) then that just shows that he wasn’t important and thus not needed
idk i get what you mean bc you def get (most of) the same information without him, but imo you don’t get the same tone. like the plot works fine without the wyald sequence, but both adaptions feel v rushed to me. i like how his presence draws things out and makes the sense of hopeless despair hit slower and worse.
plus there is some great thematic stuff there in the comparisons to the zodd fight, guts‘ stupid dream of killing monsters, stripping away griffith’s armour as a (heavy handed but imo effective) symbol, the kid’s toy metaphor (god i love that), etc. it’s mainly stuff you can pick up on w/out this sequence but i feel like it’s really effective to have these few chapters as a giant hammer hitting some of these points home.
obviously i hate him as a character too lol and like i said i absolutely hate the assaults, both w/ casca and with wyald’s encounter w/ the village, and like wyald’s general awful demeanour lbr, but that’s true of 90% of the sexual assault in berserk lol. like i hate the eclipse rape too, but the first half of the eclipse was still gr8. i hate the fucking stupid possessed horse during that night w/ farnese but i like guts smugly calling ghostly possession a miracle. etc. sadly berserk is full of scenes w/ aspects i love and aspects i hate lol.
with the focus on Miranda, but then season 4 got back on track w/ revolving around Thomas and I was ok w/ it.
you're the only one 