tbh the whole “little white spirit is moonlight boy” thing is a little too on the nose for me, miura doesn’t tend to beat people over the head like that generally? and also another thing that makes ppl think it’s like a part of griffith’s soul or w/e is its hair, and honestly that’s more convincing to me than the whole “you’re like some playful kid” thing
I see what you mean about the hair, tho I could see that as the pure light astral version of MB’s hair. But yeah Miura does kind of slap you upside the head with significant shots of MB after astral kid saves Guts, so it would be an interesting twist if they were 2 different beings. Esp since despite those obvious connection shots (I don’t have any saved and I’m too lazy to try to find them rn but yk what I mean) Guts does still pose the question of who Astral kid is instead of assuming it’s MB because they show up at the same time, which suggests that it’s still meant to be up in the air.
Thank you so much Anon I’m glad you’re enjoying this whole… thing lol. ❤
In the DH translation he says “You’re like… some playful kid.” Which IS similar to how he described Griffith early on (”he is tough to read… but probably just a kid…” and “that innocent grin… ear to ear like some little kid…”) but not really exact enough for me to think it’s much more than a coincidence.
Though the fact that the spirit kid thing does seem to be directly connected to the Moonlight Boy, like his astral projection or w/e, and the fact that a lot of ppl theorize that the Moonlight Boy is the soul of the fetus that NeoGriff grew out of (which seems like a reasonable theory), I mean it doesn’t seem farfetched after that to suggest that there could be some of Griffith’s unfrozen soul/heart/whatever in there too.
Tbh idk if thinking the soul of his ex is in there makes the Moonlight Boy better or worse lol. Kinda makes shipping awkward, but I’m also very not into the MB as the soul of Guts and Casca’s kid making a happy picturesque family.
Actually the most recent anime adaptation completely coloured how I viewed that scene for a while there because Griffith looked so hateful
I probably shouldn’t read too much into this bad CGI model but …… I mean come on holy shit
lol wow, i’ve only seen this episode in a really laggy stream so I never rly noticed this.
I feel like chalking this up to a bad adaptation needing to make it painfully obvious that this guy is Villainous and throwing nuance and subtlety to the wind.
But I still do think that in the manga he got a petty thrill from getting to be the one to ditch Guts this time.
And Guts kinda recognized it as payback too?
I definitely think Griffith was purposely being smug here actually, but I don’t know if he actually felt that way.
Because the “it’s fitting for us to reunite here as the Band of the Hawk” was just too markedly and boldly insensitive to be Griffith’s natural style imo?
I feel like he was testing out how they’d feel on his tongue. If saying them, to perhaps the person he’d primarily consciously shitted on would inspire any guilt.
I feel he was purposely trying to get a rise out of Guts to see if that reaction or Guts trying to angrily guilt trip him would actually lead to a guilt Trip.
Just a hole-y theory though.
It’s just obviously implied that Neo Griff knows something we don’t and i want to fucking know what it is.
Ooh interesting point. The Band of the Hawk assembling once more is like… a really ridiculously dickish thing to say lol, and testing himself that way, deliberately making Guts rage at him, does seem like something he’d do, and he declares that he’s free 2 pages later so yeah this works for me.
(tho when you say it’s implied that he knows something we don’t when/how do you mean? I mean I def feel like he does too but i’m wondering if you’re referencing a specific moment that’s slipping my mind)
I think it’s just how the IoE chapter ended. Like I feel like Griffith chose the the salvation option, and in some twisted way all the shitty things somehow tied in into a weird ‘greater good’ concept which we don’t know.
Like because if he chose the doom humanity response, where’s the surprise? That’s what most people would assume anyway, post Eclipse.
And I keep remembering how big a fan of starwars Kentaro Miura is. (Millennium Falcon :,) And i’m pretty sure Griffith has a lot of Anakin-Darth Vader parallels. And this is all air theory. But I think the ending is going to have some gray area partial redemption action going.
I feel Griffith is moving towards a goal way beyond the kingdom which we don’t know of.
I had always assumed that, anyway? Like, people seem to think that there’s a twist coming with Griffith’s eerie utopia, but I think the twist is that Berserk is an edgy manga and so the of questionable morality of Falconia and Griffith’s way of doing things is if not the right thing to do then just the way things are meant to go down (now, anyway)
A big theme of Berserk is “humanity’s desires,” both “good” and “bad,” and how they affect and shape the universe. Simply put, while I agree this can be annoying, the plot of Berserk is on a much larger scale than I think most people realise. Griffith literally spoke to “God.” Whatever he’s doing 1) he is right to do and 2) he isn’t going to get punished for it, imo. If he’s going to get punished for anything, it’ll be his emotional repression
Aww Casca distracting him from his revenge boner, how sweet.
So then what’s this? “The instant I saw him… I’d forgotten my urge to kill. And I’m kinda concerned about that because I should want to kill him, and this is gonna fuck up my revenge groove.” Sounds like you just don’t feel like killing him quite as much now that he looks like your crush again.
So is it sexy naked Griffith or Casca killing it for you? What is the truth?
Well he lets Rickert hold him back from Griffith too, and I’m js Rickert isn’t exactly a match for Guts.
Looks like he’s taking any excuse he can not to swing a sword at him yk?
Finally he does shove Rickert aside only to yell at him again:
Gets Griffith’s “I’ll not betray my dream, that is all” in response, and finally attacks, only for
Zodd to suddenly appear out of nowhere in what is frankly such bullshit egregious plot convenience and timing (where the fuck was he hiding in the middle of this field? behind a sword?) that I can only assume Guts saw him and knew he’d be interrupted.
Like, I’m js Guts was a whole lot better at this when he had 20 broken bones for some reason.
Guts are you obligated to remember Griffith naked everytime or
yes
Aww Casca distracting him from his revenge boner, how sweet.
So then what’s this? “The instant I saw him… I’d forgotten my urge to kill. And I’m kinda concerned about that because I should want to kill him, and this is gonna fuck up my revenge groove.” Sounds like you just don’t feel like killing him quite as much now that he looks like your crush again.
So is it sexy naked Griffith or Casca killing it for you? What is the truth?
Well he lets Rickert hold him back from Griffith too, and I’m js Rickert isn’t exactly a match for Guts.
Looks like he’s taking any excuse he can not to swing a sword at him yk?
Finally he does shove Rickert aside only to yell at him again:
Gets Griffith’s “I’ll not betray my dream, that is all” in response, and finally attacks, only for
Zodd to suddenly appear out of nowhere in what is frankly such bullshit egregious plot convenience and timing (where the fuck was he hiding in the middle of this field? behind a sword?) that I can only assume Guts saw him and knew he’d be interrupted.
Like, I’m js Guts was a whole lot better at this when he had 20 broken bones for some reason.
Actually the most recent anime adaptation completely coloured how I viewed that scene for a while there because Griffith looked so hateful
I probably shouldn’t read too much into this bad CGI model but …… I mean come on holy shit
lol wow, i’ve only seen this episode in a really laggy stream so I never rly noticed this.
I feel like chalking this up to a bad adaptation needing to make it painfully obvious that this guy is Villainous and throwing nuance and subtlety to the wind.
But I still do think that in the manga he got a petty thrill from getting to be the one to ditch Guts this time.
And Guts kinda recognized it as payback too?
I definitely think Griffith was purposely being smug here actually, but I don’t know if he actually felt that way.
Because the “it’s fitting for us to reunite here as the Band of the Hawk” was just too markedly and boldly insensitive to be Griffith’s natural style imo?
I feel like he was testing out how they’d feel on his tongue. If saying them, to perhaps the person he’d primarily consciously shitted on would inspire any guilt.
I feel he was purposely trying to get a rise out of Guts to see if that reaction or Guts trying to angrily guilt trip him would actually lead to a guilt Trip.
Just a hole-y theory though.
It’s just obviously implied that Neo Griff knows something we don’t and i want to fucking know what it is.
Ooh interesting point. The Band of the Hawk assembling once more is like… a really ridiculously dickish thing to say lol, and testing himself that way, deliberately making Guts rage at him, does seem like something he’d do, and he declares that he’s free 2 pages later so yeah this works for me.
(tho when you say it’s implied that he knows something we don’t when/how do you mean? I mean I def feel like he does too but i’m wondering if you’re referencing a specific moment that’s slipping my mind)
i get a cold chill down my spine every time i consider the possibility of rickert and erika becoming a couple after a timeskip
this is so mood… i remember ages ago i think farnesca got an ask that was abt rickert/erica and it gave me strep throat. theres like a 6-7 year age difference right. if they arent the definition of adopted siblings what are they
lmao right?
i’m re-reading the part where guts comes back and casca’s gone and going like, oh hey there’s a pretty direct comparison here between guts and rickert and casca and erika wrt acting like a responsible person, that’s cute and kinda de-romanticizes guts and casca’s current dynamic somewhat by comparing them to siblings oh shit
i get a cold chill down my spine every time i consider the possibility of rickert and erika becoming a couple after a timeskip
Guts: tbh… his tenacity – his
attitude that you have to see things through to the end, and how in most
stories this would be shown to be a virtue, but in Berserk while it is
often shown as admirable, it’s also one of his biggest flaws at times.
It’s there in touching moments, like when teenage Guts risks his life to
take a flower to a hill, and it’s also there when he vows revenge and
abandons Casca and Rickert to go off on a two-year monster hunting
spree. It’s there when he insists on getting Casca magically healed
despite Skull Knight’s warnings and his own musing that things could
turn out very bad if her sanity is forced back. It’s there when he
becomes obsessed with becoming Griffith’s equal, explicitly ignoring all
evidence that Griffith already cares for him. It’s there every time he
refuses to die.
The closest Guts came to abandoning a course
of action once he’d decided on it is when he switched from his “dream”
to realizing he wants to stay with Griffith, right before the Eclipse,
and that would’ve been the best thing Guts could’ve done, if he’d had
the chance. Switching from revenge to helping Casca is close too (and
pretty explicitly paralleled to leaving Griff vs returning and staying),
but he’s doing it with the thought in his head that it’s temporary
(”when this journey ends, I’ll…” [pictures Griffith]), and his
tenacity is still there in how he’s not letting doubts and warnings
deter him from fixing Casca, so it’s a bit of a double-edged sword.
Idk man I love Guts’ doggedness, both as a virtue and a flaw.
My
favourite Guts moment though, now that’s difficult. I’ll go with one of
the best early moments, during the Black Swordsman arc, for the sake of
making things easy. It’s my first favourite moment, at least:
Like
half his bones are broken, he couldn’t do more than crawl on his
stomach and beg for attention before this when faced with the object of
his revenge obsession, but he stands up and marches up the stairs with
his sword when Femto says he’s beneath his notice. I love him.
Griffith:
Griffith is one of my all-time favourite characters period so narrowing
it down to one thing is hard, but I think if I had to settle on one it
would be his emotional repression? The way he doesn’t realize he’s in
love with Guts until it’s too late, the way he refuses to acknowledge
his feelings of guilt and self-loathing, the way he comes so close to
getting more emotionally healthy and open with Guts at his side but then
Guts leaves without a word and everything falls to pieces, the way he
falls back on the fact that he “won” Guts in a duel and fights for him
again because he can’t articulate why he can’t stand the thought
of Guts leaving, the way he self-sabotages himself into a dungeon
because he’s so unfamiliar with his own emotions that he can’t deal with
his feelings after Guts leaves, etc.
Funnily enough, in contrast
to that, I think my favourite Griffith moment (lbr my favourite Berserk
moment) is probably his moment of greatest self-awareness:
But like the reason this monologue is so effective is because
he’s so emotionally repressed, and it took him a year of nothing but
torture and self reflection for him to recognize his feelings. It makes
this moment really, really shine.
Casca: I love that
she genuinely commands respect among the Hawks. It’s one of the few
really satisfying aspects of her character role and her treatment by
other characters to me – from Corkus getting scared and apologizing when
she threatens him, to Griffith giving her the most important job in his
capture Doldrey ploy, to the Hawks stepping back so she can take out
Adon herself and cheering her on, to being able to rally the Hawks as
their leader in the most panic-inducing circumstances, etc etc.
I think my all-time favourite Casca moment is this:
God she deserves this moment of glory.
Farnese: I love
her “you just have to become a storm yourself” thing. The way her
reaction to fear is to join the thing that frightens her and become the
frightening thing. I loved it when it lead to her doing terrible things
like burning people alive and I loved it when it lead to her doing great
things like joining Guts and learning to defend herself and Casca and
becoming a witch.
My favourite Farnese moment is a pretty obvious one but what can I say it’s so good:
Fighting
off a demon tiger taking out whole crowds with a swipe of its paw, with
a candlestick, at a fancy ball, man, how can you not love her?
Serpico:
I like the contrast between his chill and diplomatic
go-with-the-flow-ness vs how solid and immovable he is when it comes to
protecting the people he loves, and how what ties those contrasts
together is a willingness to be hurt for their sakes, from dueling
people to a draw to avoid feelings of resentment towards Farnese, to
standing between her and Berserker Guts.
My favourite Serpico moment is:
Putting
himself in danger while defusing a tense situation with that chill
diplomacy. And not even for Farnese, but for Guts this time.
@bthump OK I’m so glad you mentioned Griffith’s expressions here because I just love any excuse to talk about them
I actually saw some of them, especially the second one in that very post, as somehow … enjoying the pain he’s causing Guts? Relishing in the fact that he IS emotionless now, just like he wanted? (I mean, he isn’t, but he briefly thought he was.) That’s reminiscent of how Femto seems to treat and feel about Guts, but FA pointed out to me that he was surprised by his heartbeat too so him having come here not just to confirm if the freezing of his heart succeeded but also to taunt Guts doesn’t really fit?? And I’m always careful with reading too much into drawn expressions bc maybe the artist just didn’t manage to convey what they were trying to (or, more likely, I’m really bad at reading faces)
Thoughts??
Yeah I could see that – in the 4th panel on that post I was thinking that his eyes look like they should be conveying tenderness but the overall effect comes across as smug. In the 2nd pic I could def see it as him relishing the moment. Tbh even if NGriff didn’t consciously come to act like a smug dick in front of Guts and brush him off, it wouldn’t surprise me if that was a subconsicous part of his motivation.
I like to assume NGriff has about the same emotional self-awareness and ability to delude himself as regular Griffith lol, so even if he thinks he’s emotionless up til he actually notices his heart going off that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s true, especially since we can be pretty sure that Femto had emotions. (Tho how much of a difference there is between Femto and NeoGriff is still a mystery to me, so Femto’s emotional capacity might not be relevant? idk)
(ikwym about not reading too much into drawn expressions, I tend to avoid including stuff like that in analysis unless it’s super obvious because interpreting art and facial expression is so subjective both for the reader and the artist. But yk it’s still fun to speculate about lol, and Miura’s are often so good that it’s hard not to gush about them)
“I like to assume NGriff has about the same emotional self-awareness and ability to delude himself as regular Griffith“ LMAO that’s so true
Come to think of it this was mine and FA’s final conclusion too, I just completely forgot bc my brain is garbage. But yeah, while I do think the interpretation of Griffith’s emotions and motivations here is up for debate, I’m not so willing to let go of my “Deep down he wanted to hurt Guts (or at least enjoyed doing it)” way of seeing it bc I like the idea of Griffith caring way more than he’d like to admit, and especially caring way more than he even realises
Man I can’t wait to find out what’s been going on in NGriff’s head, because I genuinely do think we’re setting up for some level of ‘why tf can’t I just forget him’ emotionally compromised kind of thing. I mean maybe that’s just because it’s the #1 thing I want to see, but come on, the groundwork’s been layed so perfectly from their extremely epic past relationship in the Golden Age to the reveal that NGriff isn’t as serene as he’d like to be to how ambiguous and inscruitable he’s been since. I want the payoff so bad.
also I kind of want to re-watch that scene in the 2017 anime now bc it is surprisingly
satisfying to see NGriff actually looking like he hates Guts’ guts
instead of just the grating chill serenity.
Actually the most recent anime adaptation completely coloured how I viewed that scene for a while there because Griffith looked so hateful
I probably shouldn’t read too much into this bad CGI model but …… I mean come on holy shit
lol wow, i’ve only seen this episode in a really laggy stream so I never rly noticed this.
I feel like chalking this up to a bad adaptation needing to make it painfully obvious that this guy is Villainous and throwing nuance and subtlety to the wind.
But I still do think that in the manga he got a petty thrill from getting to be the one to ditch Guts this time.
@bthump OK I’m so glad you mentioned Griffith’s expressions here because I just love any excuse to talk about them
I actually saw some of them, especially the second one in that very post, as somehow … enjoying the pain he’s causing Guts? Relishing in the fact that he IS emotionless now, just like he wanted? (I mean, he isn’t, but he briefly thought he was.) That’s reminiscent of how Femto seems to treat and feel about Guts, but FA pointed out to me that he was surprised by his heartbeat too so him having come here not just to confirm if the freezing of his heart succeeded but also to taunt Guts doesn’t really fit?? And I’m always careful with reading too much into drawn expressions bc maybe the artist just didn’t manage to convey what they were trying to (or, more likely, I’m really bad at reading faces)
Thoughts??
Yeah I could see that – in the 4th panel on that post I was thinking that his eyes look like they should be conveying tenderness but the overall effect comes across as smug. In the 2nd pic I could def see it as him relishing the moment. Tbh even if NGriff didn’t consciously come to act like a smug dick in front of Guts and brush him off, it wouldn’t surprise me if that was a subconsicous part of his motivation.
I like to assume NGriff has about the same emotional self-awareness and ability to delude himself as regular Griffith lol, so even if he thinks he’s emotionless up til he actually notices his heart going off that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s true, especially since we can be pretty sure that Femto had emotions. (Tho how much of a difference there is between Femto and NeoGriff is still a mystery to me, so Femto’s emotional capacity might not be relevant? idk)
(ikwym about not reading too much into drawn expressions, I tend to avoid including stuff like that in analysis unless it’s super obvious because interpreting art and facial expression is so subjective both for the reader and the artist. But yk it’s still fun to speculate about lol, and Miura’s are often so good that it’s hard not to gush about them)
tfw you write a meta post just so you can link to it in a longer meta post
I want to take a minute to explain my take on the Hound.
Basically he’s Guts’ equivalent to Griffith’s Femto, ie, the ~dark side~ of Guts, made out of swirling negative emotions like rage and fear and hatred etc. It’s likely due to the reality-warping brand on his neck that the Hound is given more form and will than most people’s dark sides, becoming more of a presence to Guts.
We know the Hound isn’t an external evil spirit trying to manipulate Guts or possess him because we see it in Godo’s spirit-repelling cave where Guts is guaranteed to be safe from mean external forces like ghosts.
Like, the nature of the Hound is basically spelled out in its first physical appearance:
This establishes that the Hound is a manifestation of Guts’ “malice” (among other negative emotions, like the fear Guts mentions). Godo says to Guts – “you ran away so that your own malice could burn within you.” That’s the dark flame Guts is referencing up there, which is essentially the Hound.
This also establishes that the Hound is real – it’s not just a metaphor for the audience’s sake, it’s a physical presence that Guts senses. It’s a part of Guts given ghostly form. When he argues with it he’s arguing with himself.
It’s explicitly compared to Femto a few chapters earlier, when the concept is shown to us, before it explicitly appears as an entity.
What Skull Knight means by “or else…” becomes clear on the following page where he finds Rosine’s behelit.
Reminding the audience that there are ways for men to become beasts.
We cut to Guts walking through a forest being taunted by all those asshole spirits, digging into his deep insecurities, locating sites of his self-loathing and using it to fuck with his mind.
They’re essentially voicing his thoughts for him.
Pointing out his inner darkness, similarly to how the spirit that possessed Farnese pointed out that she gets off on torture. They’re not making shit up here, what they say digs deep and fucks with people’s heads because it’s based on truth.
Here they explicitly compare the Hound to Femto.
And finally Guts’ response after they take off:
He’s completely right, and as we can figure out from the ominous shot of the behelit and the fact that this is Guts reaffirming his stupid self destructive revenge crusade, this isn’t the greatest attitude.
He is what he is, and the more he pursues revenge and soaks himself in blood etc the stronger the Hound part of him gets.
And just in case more evidence that the Hound is a part of Guts and not an external force is needed, there’s this:
“This… is my…”
After the armour transforms into the shape of the Hound, rather than Skull Knight’s Skull Knight:
Guts’ armour is Guts getting the power of his dark side that apostles get, without having to sacrifice a loved one first. If he became an apostle his monstrous form would look a lot like the Hound. If Griffith was in Guts’ place, his armour would look a lot like Femto.
and now i will write and draw some heterosexual intercourse 🙂
lmao
time to draw my badass manly sword fight between two heterosexual men
Miura as Tobias Funke is the funniest thing I’ve ever thought of
i just wrote a thing about guts + griff’s first duel including gay sword imagery (even tho I promised myself I would avoid freudian imagery but i’m sorry it’s RIGHT THERE and unavoidable when the topic is gay subtext in Berserk) and then I re-read a few chapters following and maybe I just have phallic symbols on the brain but this cannot be accidental, right
I like that Griffith’s two examples describe both him and Guts in the future. Like Griffith isn’t into world domination now, he just wants to be a king, but it sounds like that’s where the Falconia thing/Gaiseric’s giant empire parallel is headed.
And Black Swordsman Guts is both literally tempering his giant sword by infusing it with evil ghost spirits and shit, and also metaphorically honing himself a la Godo’s metaphor for him thru his dream of revenge and fighting tougher and tougher enemies.
and when he got his lofty noble dream figured out it was inspired by Godo being a blacksmith
but at the end of the day both go hand in hand with self destruction so like Griffith was right on the money here
@ Your tags, Gambino is actually sitting on that pile of corpses though, isn’t he? It seems too symbolic to just be a spook effect This can only marginally be related to Guts’ guilt ig since he was still a child here but I assumed those were the corpses of people Gambino or their band in general had killed
Yeah that does make sense, more than just atmospheric effect. I can’t really buy that Guts feels any guilt for being a mercinary and killing people in battle (he’s got a few particular deaths he feels guilty about but random soldiers aren’t them), but as symbolic of a life he was born/adopted into, surrounded by death and living for no reason other than to kill, it’s pretty fitting.
this is the minorest of minor moments but i want 2 draw attention to this brief moment of intense eye contact
Will you always be left doubting me… when I lay down my life for you?
like i can’t believe the anime dub upgraded this from
“do i need a reason to take a risk for you?”
to
“i would die for you”
Oh yeah, if I remember correctly (from the 1997 anime, not manga raws) here he uses the expression 体を張る (karada wo haru), which means “to devote oneself wholeheartedly to; to sacrifice one’s health for; to risk one’s life,“ so I definitely think that translating this as “laying down his life” for Guts instead of just “taking a risk” is way more accurate.
(体 means “body,” so if he’s “taking a risk,” what he’s risking is … himself. And I don’t think that’s something that should be left out of the final translation.)
Ooh ty for the additional translation info!
“devote oneself wholeheartedly to” I love that so much. I wish I could find manga raws to check whether it’s the same there, bc if it is then yeah “lay down my life” sounds like a better translation than Dark Horse’s weaker “put myself in harm’s way.”
Did a quick google search, and here it is:
…オレがおまえのために体をはることに…いちいち理由が [ 必要なのか？]
… Ore ga omae no tame ni karada o haru koto ni … ichīchi riyū ga hitsuyō na no ka?
“Do I need a reason each time I risk my life for your sake?”
Not the best quality, but you can still see that’s what it says.
i thought this was going to be the long ass essay you were talking about and then i was like “oh”
lol sorry to get your hopes up. I want to write all parts b4 posting any, tho if I end up giving up at some point (which is always a risk for me lol) I’ll definitely post what I’ve already written.
Will you always be left doubting me… when I lay down my life for you?
like i can’t believe the anime dub upgraded this from
“do i need a reason to take a risk for you?”
to
“i would die for you”
Oh yeah, if I remember correctly (from the 1997 anime, not manga raws) here he uses the expression 体を張る (karada wo haru), which means “to devote oneself wholeheartedly to; to sacrifice one’s health for; to risk one’s life,“ so I definitely think that translating this as “laying down his life” for Guts instead of just “taking a risk” is way more accurate.
(体 means “body,” so if he’s “taking a risk,” what he’s risking is … himself. And I don’t think that’s something that should be left out of the final translation.)
Ooh ty for the additional translation info!
“devote oneself wholeheartedly to” I love that so much. I wish I could find manga raws to check whether it’s the same there, bc if it is then yeah “lay down my life” sounds like a better translation than Dark Horse’s weaker “put myself in harm’s way.”
you're the only one 