tbh I don’t really think it’s a matter of NeoGriffith transforming into a more powerful Femto form. We saw him as Femto once, when he killed Ganeshka’s ascended form, and I’m pretty sure that we only saw him as Femto because we were seeing him from Ganeshka’s point of view. I don’t think he literally transformed, I think it’s like, his ~ethereal~ form that only other godlike beings can see. Maybe Skull Knight can see it too, idk.
Miura uses a very deliberate point of view shot to reveal NGriff-as-Femto for the first time, which is why I’m thinking it’s not a literal transformation.
But like, when it comes to power levels, idk. It’s all down to whatever Miura makes up, right? If Guts needs to defeat NGriff/Femto who has Femto’s telekinetic powers etc, Miura will make it possible by revealing magic Elf deus ex machina power up thing or something.
My hope though is that it doesn’t come down to a physical might against might thing, but rather, an emotional confrontation.
At the end of the day, even if NGriff is as powerful as Femto and Guts is no physical match for him, he still has the same weakness that resulted in Femto finding himself unable to kill Guts, and letting him go after the Eclipse. And NGriff calling off Zodd while his heart was unexpectedly beating. And Guts has his own, “the instant I saw him I’d forgotten my urge to kill,” thing.
Like this is a protag/antag relationship where both are conflicted and reluctant to kill the other, and have therefore been avoiding each other for like 200 chapters lol, and when you think of it like that I don’t think power levels are going to factor in much.
So to actually answer your question, the scenario I see to defeat NGriff/Femto, assuming he is defeated/killed eventually, is that Griffith fucks himself over once again because of the resurgence of his irrational, life-ruining emotions for Guts, fails to kill Guts when he should or fails to defend himself when he should or possibly does kill Guts and then has a breakdown at which point Casca can freely kill him.
yeah I completely agree! She even specifically mentioned that Casca was afraid of Guts before the whole dream thing. Which is why I’m clinging to my theory that Danann sent Casca to see Guts with the intention of triggering her.
Like I mean, come on, right? Danann’s like, Guts you can’t join them in her dreams because I sense that she has a strong fear of you that would impede the ritual. Then as soon as Casca wakes up she’s putting her in a romantic dress and sending her on a happy reunion, which immediately turns dark when Casca sees Guts and starts having flashbacks. Oh no who could have forseen this outcome? Well, Danann.
like straight up it’s either purposeful or it’s v sloppy writing imo.
i think the /only/ thing the fetus has that could be considered strong narrative coherence would be the irony of the “product” of the evil that femto did coming back to bite neogriffith in the the ass lol. but that doesnt sit well with me for a million obvious reasons + i dont get the vibe that berserk is that kind of revenge story. like you said the emotional resonance would be absent; itd fir the demise of like a comic book super villain more than anything.
completely agree, and lmao it does feel like, campy and convoluted in a comic book way
and ok i could still see miura going for it if casca’s the one who gets revenge. like fine, make the fetus his weakness against her that gives her the chance to kill him (tho i’ve said it b4 and i’ll say it again, casca swooping in to kill him while he’s crying over guts’ corpse would be way better).
idk i do think it would be cheap and a matter of prioritizing plot convenience over emotion, but i could see it happening and at least w/ casca’s story the irony is v direct. if the fetus is affecting him wrt guts tho? narratively nonsensical.
whatsisname: wow so i guess this was a heavy handed metaphor for how stupid religion is
luca: no it’s about how people deal with fear, like the rest of the manga. see y’all in falconia
Ok like, to start, Griffith’s heart starts beating when he watches Guts square off against Zodd.
Which imo is very reminiscent of the very first time he saw Guts, after he took Basuzo out.
Guts fighting Zodd on the Hill of Swords is a demonstration of the very first thing that enchanted Griffith lol.
Guts fighting Zodd specifically also has this particular relevance to Griffith’s feelings:
Their first encounter with him was all about Griffith’s irrational feelings for Guts. It kind of feels right for those feelings to hit Griffith again during another encounter with Zodd, even if he’s now on the opposite side.
So yeah I absolutely think NeoGriffith is lying his ass off to himself when he blames his feelings on the fetus lol. If I was Miura I might even go the same route – like you can’t have inarguable proof that Griffith’s feelings for Guts still exist if you’re going to be coy and ambiguous about NeoGriffith’s emotional state for the next 150 chapters. You need a narrative scapegoat to keep things ambiguous.
And lbr it’s extremely in character for Griffith to deny his feelings lmao. Like, it would be out of character if he didn’t find an excuse.
And at the same time if it turns out Griffith’s right and those are the fetus’ feelings then… it will just be mind-bogglingly, soul destroyingly bad writing lmfao. I can’t handle the concept of a writer spending 70 chapters dedicated to showing how Griffith is torn between his dream and his feelings for Guts, having those feelings completely drive the plot and making them the central point of the whole Golden Age, having the climactic sacrifice be Griffith’s attempt to escape those feelings, reintroducing Griffith as an emotionless shell of who he used to be, then dramatically suggesting that those feelings may still be there… only to have Griffith’s beating heart be a total coincidence and his residual feelings for Guts be the totally unrelated feelings of a fetus instead lmao.
Even NGriff blaming the fetus for saving Casca seems unnecessary to me, like I’d believe that if some of original Griffith’s emotions survived the transition to NGriff then he would also automatically move to save Casca, though I wouldn’t be surprised if that specifically is a legit fetus-related thing. I mean Miura’s going somewhere with the fetus lol so w/e maybe it’s somewhat relevant, but I just can’t believe it’s relevant to NGriff’s feelings for Guts.
Yeah like imo I don’t think it’s really in question, there’s so much creepy suggestivity there. tbh, and I’ve talked about this before lol so I’m not going to go on another long ramble about it but in brief, I think the real question is why is it only implicitly discussed and not explicitly discussed? I mean it’s not like Miura has ever shied away from sexual assault before in image or in dialogue lol. Griffith’s got the distinction of being I think the only character who gets assaulted in subtext instead of text.
One could argue that it’s not overly relevant since in the face of a year of torture Griffith’s going to be fucked up no matter what specifically happened, but if that’s the case, why hint at it at all w/ the tongue licking and the husband and wife comment and the fairly prominently featured gynecological tool and the fixation on beauty? Miura kinda missed his shot if he was aiming for classy understatement lmao.
Anyway idk I think it’s a major writing misstep personally.
I’m 100% certain it wasn’t explicit because he’s not a woman, but it’s imo implied to rile Guts up even further, among other things. Since he’s especially sensitive to sexual assault
actually yeah I’m gonna have to co-sign this. like griffith being the only adult man who’s been sexually assaulted (at least by another man, since Guts being kissed by Slan doesn’t have the same impact/connotations to a presumed readership of heterosexual men) def seems relevant here.
Yeah he rly is drawn in a v extra overly beautiful way. Though I think this is more Miura’s art style changing, rather than an in-universe change, mostly because of this:
I think NGriff is probably more perfect looking than human Griff, like if you took human Griffith on the best looking day of his life and gave him that perfection all the time, but I don’t think any of his features or anything have changed, even if Miura draws them slightly different – like curlier hair eg.
ok lemme just hijack this post real quick cause the way i always read griff getting ‘more beautiful post eclipse’ was to show us that distance, to make him just that much more unavailable, i.e. he’s looking the way he did through the eyes of his followers when placed on that pedestal of absolute leader/the man who’s gonna bring them all glory, and later how he looks to guts himself (beautiful as always but very much more distant) once he started to feel like they were not equals after the fountain speech etc. etc.
because to me golden age griff as seen through guts’ eyes was always muuuch more human looking, less composed in his expressions, more open because he felt he could show that side to guts because ‘i’ve never talked to anyone like this before’ and ‘…only you’ and so on. He looks this ethereal now because it makes him unavailable visually, (e.g. wow that dude’s so perfect a lowly peasant such as i could NEVER–) and since we see him through guts’ eyes during a couple of the most powerful post eclipse scenes (honestly hill of swords is like the only one im talking about here but let’s pretend i care as much about other scenes too lmao) that unreal, unattainable beautiful look is the look that sticks, because griffith looks just as gorg. through others eyes, (like charlotte, or rickerts when they meet again) but it’s only when guts looks at him that the difference is so jarring, because TLDR; when guts looked at him before we saw a man, and now we see a god.
(or… like.. none of this and miura just evolved and his new skillz finally enable him to draw griff the way he always wanted to. (BUT I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THAT THERE COULD BE A STYLISTIC CHANGE THIS OBVIOUS THAT DOES NOT HAVE SOME DEEP GRIFFGUTS ROOTS SOMEWHERE IN THERE.)
✌
ia with all of this!
and like, even if ngriff isn’t meant to be overtly physically different looking from regular griffith in any concrete way, he’s still always described as like a painting, like someone out of a fairytale, “more griffith,” etc.
I’ve framed it before as NeoGriffith becoming like the embodiment of the impression human Griffith used to leave people with, and the way you put that through Guts’ eyes specifically really makes a lot of sense to me.
NeoGriffith is totally like, an encapsulation of what Guts saw when he was looking up at him on the stairs to Promrose Hall, when he stopped seeing Griffith as just a man and he became this distant figure. And that just makes it extra depressing.
Yeah like imo I don’t think it’s really in question, there’s so much creepy suggestivity there. tbh, and I’ve talked about this before lol so I’m not going to go on another long ramble about it but in brief, I think the real question is why is it only implicitly discussed and not explicitly discussed? I mean it’s not like Miura has ever shied away from sexual assault before in image or in dialogue lol. Griffith’s got the distinction of being I think the only character who gets assaulted in subtext instead of text.
One could argue that it’s not overly relevant since in the face of a year of torture Griffith’s going to be fucked up no matter what specifically happened, but if that’s the case, why hint at it at all w/ the tongue licking and the husband and wife comment and the fairly prominently featured gynecological tool and the fixation on beauty? Miura kinda missed his shot if he was aiming for classy understatement lmao.
Anyway idk I think it’s a major writing misstep personally.
wow upset about repressed gay canon griffith now
but like i just am
very sure that the idea of being restrained while guts jerks him off or
blows him or whatever turns him on hes like been Into and Fascinated
with the heady thrill of being “defeated” or dominated by guts since
their sword duel turned into a fist fight
oh man you’re so right, it’s all there in the manga. also haven’t you talked about like… not quite fighting for dominance but like pseudo roleplaying where guts has to force him into submission a while ago? bc tbh that rly fits.
like bondage is v v good but guts physically holding him down might be even better.
also shit like ignore this bc it’s totally beside the main subject, but now i’m thinking about neogriffith and beast of darkness guts. like i mean it’s hard not to apply this to the epic enemy ship versions of them, one of whom pretends he doesn’t gaf but is seriously emotionally affected no matter how much he denies it, and one of whom loses himself to base urges periodically in high emotion and then comes back to himself and has to deal with the consequences, yk?
Unrelated but that looks like a very practical and organized bag he had there
lmao. well i guess say what you want about the torturer, at least he took his job seriously and shows up prepared
yk like, you can’t build a real berserk theory based on like, to use today’s example, casca’s name being maybe possibly a reference to an obscure fantasy series. like there’s no proof that’s where he even got the name, and even if it is a reference, it’s likely that when he named her he didn’t even know where her story was headed
but on the other hand boy it’s satisfying to come up with a theory and then remember or notice some random detail that completely supports it lol
idk why i’m cutting this now but idk it’s an ongoing discussion that mb not everyone is into so it seems polite or smthn lol. more bdsm griffguts stuff
like i think griffith would just flat out have mixed feelings and shame about losing control/falling into sub space or whatever and like imho i think its realistic to work there slowly bc if hed be comfortable with anyone it would be guts?
yeah and it being another thing that Only Guts gets to see is another reason it’s so good imo
also like griffith would be so gung ho about guts tying him up right away. hed be so into it you dont need to ask twice.
yk what yeah i can see this. it would be a good starting point too, i could see even canon griffith suggesting it himself. well like, some versions of canon griffith lol. i think he could range anywhere from being relatively open wrt sex to being super repressed and unable to even recognize what turns him on, but yk, the former is better for stuff like this.
*rubs my eyes* i want to write something but i already have like ten other things to write aaaaaa also if i ever did id want it to be a series that would. build up to less awkwardness and ease into being comfortable showing vulnerability wrt griffith… also i love modern au obviously which i always feel like is a bit of a cop out but itd take soooo much more time to work with this in canon au….
if u ever did i’d be so there
and yeah like i think modern au is great bc you can just cut out all the shit that gets in the way of everything in canon while keeping true to the core of the characters.
i guess there’s something extra satisfying about more directly canon griffguts stuff (or yk like, a canon au where only one thing is different, eg guts never overhearing griffith’s friendship speech or w/e, bc obviously in actual canon it’s all irreparably fucked) but yeah you have to spend way more time getting them anywhere and a lot of the time it’s probably not worth it.
Yes, I meant the reflective pupil 😀 It really looks unnatural, which I guess is the point
yeah totally, it’s a detail i really like bc it makes ngriff look subtly otherworldly
i think @chaoticgaygriffith made a compilation of other characters who have similarly reflective eyes tho i can’t find it rn, and they’re all like magical or monstrous iirc
i think schierke gets it too sometimes when she’s doing magic
reading berserk meta not written by me or someone i know
Why afraid? You’re very open minded person or bc these people may say something very ignorant?
oh lol just bc i have strong and unpopular berserk opinions so even in a post with a lot of good points there’s usually something that’ll make me go “ugh not this again” and start laying out an argument in my head
it’s just a jokey exaggeration lol, not being afraid of reading something i’ll disagree with so much as just waiting for the other shoe to drop
Yeah he rly is drawn in a v extra overly beautiful way. Though I think this is more Miura’s art style changing, rather than an in-universe change, mostly because of this:
I think NGriff is probably more perfect looking than human Griff, like if you took human Griffith on the best looking day of his life and gave him that perfection all the time, but I don’t think any of his features or anything have changed, even if Miura draws them slightly different – like curlier hair eg.
idk man sometimes i notice good and interesting details that enrich the story and support my theories and make Berserk better, and sometimes i notice terrible details, and i can’t keep my mouth shut about either lol
a twunk and a twink actually… also wow miura sure hates drawing body hair lmao?
i’m glad he’s fulfilling both his dream of ruling the world and his dream of being the ideal twink
and yeah lol like the only character with any body hair is zodd. and i guess casca has like a vague suggestion of pubes
also new low-key horrifying detail i just noticed while grabbing that panel from chapter 39, which i can’t believe i hadn’t noticed before when like i read this stupid chapter a million times for my giant griffith meta
p sure the thing he’s holding that isn’t pliers is a fucking speculum
human griffith could kick neogriffith’s ass
reading berserk meta not written by me or someone i know
hey remember one time i theorized that maybe casca will become an apostle, kill griffith, and her dark but fitting ending can be becoming another zodd-esque apostle, living just to fight as no one’s sword but her own?
i just remembered that the fictional character she’s supposedly named after is the dude who stabbed jesus and was then cursed to live forever lol, “Casca: The Eternal Mercenary.”
idk if it was ever confirmed that that’s where miura got the name ‘casca’ from or if ppl just assumed bc of his tendency to name characters after fantasy novels, but yk what whatever gives me hope is legit.
God, I was in physical pain reading this chapter. My heart just breaks for Rickert. The Griffith he followed, whose dream he shared and who he adored- who he wanted to save- that’s not the man who stands in front of him now, in this gorgeous prosperous city that was build on the corpses and dreams of hundreds upon hundreds of men. I always wondered if Rickert would feel like he shouldn’t have survived, if he ever found out the truth of what happened during the eclipse and met Griffith again. And this chapter kind of confirmed it for me. But unlike Guts he cannot drown in hatred and stake his life on revenge. All he could do, and all he had to console him was build that hill of swords. I can’t even imagine how lonely and helpless he must have felt, being the only survivor left with no answers and a thousand questions. But even so, the Griffith he faced this chapter cannot answer him, not really. I know I happily lost my shit and joked along with all of the ‘Rickert’s balls of steel and impending doom’ crap over the bitchsmack panel when it came out as a spoiler, but seeing it in the context of the chapter as a whole- wow. It took my breath away for a plethora of other reasons. People say he’s brave as hell for daring the slap the almighty Griffith but honestly I don’t think he even had time to work up courage, and it just happened on this spur of instinct- of way overdue hurt and that hurts me because jesus, Rickert deserves better dammit. Griffith’s reaction was on point though- I didn’t expect him to immediately chop Rickert’s head off or anything, but it’s impossible to read him nowadays. Is it just apathy? Like always? Does he even feel anything at all when Rickert rejects his new self- his pretty new kingdom? I can’t tell- I want to believe, but, alas. It’s Berserk. It kills. And I’m done.
Totally agreed about Rickert, I don’t often think about his survivor’s guilt but it’s a huge part of his character and it was rly satisfying to see him get to express some of his feelings about everything, directly to Griffith.
As for Griffith, his reaction is the most intriguing part of the scene to me ngl.
Like overall I think NeoGriffith is automatically interesting because of what Miura doesn’t show us? The last time we saw into his head was
like the first and only thing we find out about his internal life is that he’s not as unemotional as he appears, and every scene w/ NeoGriffith afterwards where his emotions are conspicuously hidden from us just adds to my sense that inevitably we’re heading towards a big revelation about his feelings specifically.
The scene with Rickert is especially interesting because it’s the first time we see NeoGriffith at a loss.
Like this is his only response to Rickert’s tirade, and it’s an acknowledgement of the difference between, well, who he is now and who he used to be, essentially.
Ngriff’s got nothing. And that is so damn interesting to me lol.
“Don’t throw away what you can’t replace,” is something Guts reminds Rickert right after the Reunion on the Hill of Swords and right before Guts does this:
NGriff starts putting a new Band of the Hawk together like he’s trying to replace the old one, and he’s invited Rickert to join. I got this idea from @mastermistressofdesire a while ago lol and it’s so perfect, like, basically NGriff invited Rickert along because deep down he wants validation from one of the original Hawks. It would be proof that “nothing has changed.” That he has successfully replaced the original Band.
But Rickert rejected him, and it seems like it throws him off. He’s supposed to be literally untouchable, but Rickert was able to slap him. He has nothing to say to Rickert in response other than to quietly agree that the Hawk symbol is different now. And his face is hidden from us while watching Rickert leave both times:
Like this ties in with this theory/hope of mine that NeoGriffith’s thing is going to end up being identity/isolation. As the absolute with no equal, as someone who has undergone huge changes and denies it (”this is the man I am.”), as a parallel to ascended Ganeshka, because he failed his own test and his heart started beating when he saw Guts and the first thing he did was deny to himself that it had anything to do with his feelings for Guts, and a few other little details, like eg this page at the end of a chapter all about sonia feeling lonely and isolated as the only person who sees the world the way she does:
Like c’mon Miura, all this suggestive emotional ambiguity has to be there for something.
the scarification thing isnt far off my mark lol ive posted before about modern au where griffith has guts name tattooed on his hipbone or some place equally as intimate? yea. and griffiths name where the brand would be on guts js.
ooh yeah now that you mention it i remember that, and it was an a+ concept. They’re both intense enough to go for permanent symbols like that.
hmmm i get what youre
saying with the control thing too? i am very curious about examples wrt
guts making griffith. lose control? i was thinking of small commands
being made to get him to relax at first but im coming from the
perspective of someone who has to does still/sitting/breathing
meditation for therapy so that probably wasnt obvious.
wrt losing control i was thinking along the lines of like, beaing teased until he’s a begging mess lol. but idk i’m thinking about it more and while that’d be something i’d be into bc i love when rigidly self-controlled characters lose it, the way i see griffith maybe he would actually more than likely hate it? there’s like a distinction between loss of control over his environment/letting go of his responsibilites vs loss of control over himself and griffith would want the former but maybe not the latter.
otoh we were talking about subspace earlier too and in the right mindset i could see griffith also finding it freeing to lose self control and just act on instinct. but idt it would come as easily as being tied up would, and i could see it leading to like, regret/shame/awkwardness after he comes lol. but then again maybe not – i mean i guess thinking of canon moments where his brain like shut down and he instinctively did something, he’s actually pretty good at downplaying it afterwards lol.
but i think you’re right on the money about small commands to relax him, especially w/ the context of like, breathing exercises and posture and stuff. and commands where he can demonstrate self control in general. i could def see him finding that soothing, and a good way to like, ease into more intense stuff.
also yea sensory deprivation wrt griffith is good especially when he lets guts help/support him while hes blindfolded.
you're the only one 