xiyyh
replied to your post “?”

his eyesssss ugh he’s so! genuinely happy in this moment

ikkkkkr the whole waterfight scene feels so genuine (well til guts asks why griffith saved him) and i love it

seisans
replied to your post “do you think that the night after guys left was the first time…”

for some reason i totally thought we were supposed to assume it’s his first time lol ….. idk he’s just so gaycoded that it’s the only option for me

I’ll also add that I want to take the parallels to the g*tsca sex scene as another reason it’s his first time

guts and griffith both having het sex to try to avoid confronting their feelings for each other, and it destroys everyone’s lives and the golden age is a cautionary tale about heterosexuality

seisans said:
im losing my MINDDDDDD that people think
this is proof he liked her. it’s called being gay and repressed holy
shit i’ve never seen a more accurate depiction of how heteronormativity
messes with a gay person (in manga anyway) and people think it’s
attraction looooord help me

honestly it’s so real, like fucking everything about griffith’s story fits the repressed gay narrative. idk how miura did it if it was an accident lol.

but like, yeah i get being confused by those scenes, particularly the wagon one, but the one conclusion you definitely cannot draw from them is that griffith loves casca because he literally tries to kill himself right after imagining a quiet “content” domestic life with her lol. I’m almost morbidly curious about the arguments the person who sent me those asks saw.

What does “b” stand for in your tags?

oh i tag all my meta-y posts ‘a’ and all my original posts including meta ‘b’

tbh it’s kind of a holdover from when i was liveblogging, so i could read all my own posts chronologically if i ever felt like it and see what i was thinking while reading thru berserk

tho i never actually have so i’m not sure why i still do it other than habit lol. i guess it’s also handy to have a quick way to filter out reblogs if i’m trying to find something too

do you think that the night after guys left was the first time griffith had sex with a woman? i feel like this breaches into more headcanon territory but i have gay griffith thoughts to water

I choose to believe

idk if I can really make a case for it, other than the fact that like… that sex scene was super basic lol.

also i like the idea of griffith thinking he needs to be good at hetero sex so he can seduce charlotte properly for the sake of his dream when the time comes, and then convincing himself that reading the books he canonically has totally covers it and there’s no need to actually have sex with a woman

hope you get your gay griffith thoughts watered bc i always want to read more of them

👀

madchen
replied to your post “I don’t know if you went into this before but if so let me know. When…”

realizing the kid in griffiths hesterosexual nightmare is his and cascas gave me hives
cool how this whole situation is
realized in gruesome reverse, with griffith off “pursuing his dream” and
casca and guts “kid” being a literal part/reminder of griffiths absence

ooh good point. and also that is a reason i can get behind for guts being freaked out by the fetus in the black swordsman arc. obviously not authorially intended at that point and i don’t think it actually works wrt symbolism, but emotionally i dig it

also yeah lol that scene is like 3 pages of quiet domesticity and i think it disturbs me more than anything else in berserk

course a lot of that is what i bring to the table with my berserk is about heteronormativity and repression hot takes but yk, still

I don’t know if you went into this before but if so let me know. When romance is discussed I see that they mainly pit just about every single ship there is against griffguts, mainly with Gutsca and Grifflotte whatever. Sometimes people bring up the possibilty of Griffith actually having undisclosed feelings for Casca, as another reason the eclipse occured. Aside from the Gennon scene the other two points mentioned was the wagon scene where it looked like he was trying to rape her or that dream

Sorry I ran out of characters in the last post so I’ll continue from
here: And in the dream sequence where Griffith imagined Casca was his
wife and Guts was there child? Did you think that what happened in the
wagon was Griffith attempting to rape Casca and was the dream sequence
suppose to reveal ANY sort of feeling he had for her? What do you think
is the case and why?

I definitely don’t think the wagon scene or the dream sequence (I call
it a nightmare lol) suggest that Griffith has feelings for Casca. And I
don’t think the scene in the wagon was a rape attempt, because I mean
for one Griffith stopped when Casca told him to stop, so yk, qed lol,
but also because I think it’s meant to be a huge contrast to the Eclipse
rape, rather than like, a sneak preview. It’s an offer, the only way he can make that offer without the ability to speak.

Griffith is at his absolute lowest point here. He’s lost everything that he perceives gives him worth, and Wyald’s just literally and metaphorically stripped away his last lingering ability to deny this. He overheard Casca tell Guts she wants to be held right before the wagon scene, and as Casca is bandaging his hand she reflects on how Griffith could always comfort her with just a hand on her shoulder – but now it’s her turn to do that.

So imo Griffith is offering himself to Casca for two reasons:

1. He desperately wants to be this person again:

She’s shaking, she wants comfort, and Griffith wants to be the strong leader who can ease her trembling.

It’s a way he’s denied his vulnerability in the past:

But he’s simply no longer able to be this person.

It’s a humiliating, and depressing reversal of their roles, emphasizing how far Griffith’s fallen.

2. It’s sexual for one or both of these reasons:

Guts and Casca just had comfort sex. As a failed attempt at initiating comfort sex, the contrast highlights Griffith’s removal from their new dynamic. Also, since Griffith knows they’ve hooked up, this could be an attempt to insert himself into that dynamic and redress the balance because he’s afraid of being left behind.

What may be a harder sell depending on your reading of Griffith but makes the most sense to me is that frankly, Griffith is desperate. Wyald just gave the Hawks a run-down of how fucked he is for life – he can no longer be the Hawks’ hope for the future, and he can’t even live on his own. He’s been hiding behind that hawk mask, clinging to the last vestiges of his image (like when he asked Guts for his armour), and now that’s gone. If someone doesn’t take care of him, he’s dead. Griffith is someone who judges his worth by what he can be to other people, and now in his eyes he’s nothing but a burden with tens of thousands of corpses worth of guilt hanging over him.

And kind of hammering this point home for the reader, outside the wagon Judeau is backing up Griffith’s own depressing image of himself too – he’s telling Guts to take Casca and run because otherwise she’ll basically end up stuck taking care of Griffith, while he himself offers to take Griffith with him because he feels like he owes Griffith. And after this scene, Casca cries because she feels like she can’t leave Griffith behind, even though she wants to leave with Guts.

Ironically, considering what Griffith overhears right after, Guts is the only person who actually wants to stay with Griffith now, as he keeps trying to tell the people who keep telling him to leave lol:

So, imo Griffith’s offering sex to Casca mostly because it’s something he can offer that still
potentially has worth – it’s something he can give in exchange for being
taken care of.

Casca was in love with him, and lbr Griffith knows that, so this is theoretically something she might want.

And Griffith like, sees sex as transactional. It’s something he can trade to those with more power than him, who can give him something he needs. Money, with Gennon. A kingdom, with Charlotte. And here it’s Casca, for security – plus maybe Guts. So imo trading sexual favours absolutely seems like something Griffith would fall back on if he’s desperate.

And this leads right to Griffith’s hallucinatory nightmare after he overhears Casca telling Guts to leave – he’s envisioning the life he just asked for, believing Guts intends to leave, and it’s fucking horrific.

Griffith is living in what seems like a state of permanent dissociation. Guts is out there, still pursuing his own dream, totally out of their lives.

You mentioned the child being Guts, as in a surreal nightmare, but I think he’s just intended to be named after him. The “he” swinging his sword out there somewhere who Casca mentions would be the actual Guts, and this – blondish – kid is presumably Griffith and Cacsa’s.

imo a p disturbing way of underscoring that Guts is gone but far from forgotten.

Anyway yeah to me this whole sequence reads like Griffith grasping at the last straws available to him.

So to basically just sum up My Take on all this:

Griffith offers himself to Casca in the wagon both to try to reclaim a piece of his past self, and in an attempt to secure his future by offering Casca something she wants. And imagining that future, sans Guts, drives him to suicide.

So like, I don’t think it’s indicative of Griffith having any romantic feelings for Casca. It’s more a painful illustration of Griffith’s current powerlessness and desperation.

In case you want to read more lol, I talk about these scenes more thoroughly and with more context and build up in like the first half of the fourth part of this Griffith analysis.

madchen
replied to your post “madchen
replied to your post “madchen
replied to your post “since…”

i always say guts doesn’t know how to work a phone but i love the idea of him taking candid pics of griff and looking at them lovingly later
has so many sleeping/napping griff pics

yesss

and like if griffith was looking thru guts’ phone and stumbled across the folder of pics of himself sleeping he would completely love it, like it wouldn’t even occur to him to be creeped out lol, it’d just be evidence that guts is super into him even at his most un-put-together

Imo berserk stopped being interesting when guts trauma stopped being adressed. For mb the first time in a dark shonen,its shown sexual abuse can happen even to the machoman protag, and how sexual trauma affects him and his relationships.how it makes him weak, afraid,desperate to form a deep bond wt smo and vulnerable to guenine demonstration of luv. Its so rare to have this characterisation in média,more so with a viril protag! 1/2

And then guts have sex wt casca and that stops. Now hes just a strong
character,never defeated, afraid only of himself bc ooh theres a scary
monster inside him teehee,like every shonen.He wants to defeat his evil
former bff with lingering sentiments (naruto?). His vulnerabilities, his
dependance on smo else opinion,his loneliness and lack of meaning of
his existence,which were rare traits in protag?disappeared. GA was how
life conditions impacted real ppl,now bersek is just a shonen wt rape
2/2

Yeaaaaah I agree with a lot of this. I’ve ranted about it before but I can always go on more about how much it bugs me that Guts’ personal trauma is basically ignored during and after the Eclipse in favour of switching to being angry about someone else’s trauma (someone who didn’t even get her own reaction to it, at least not for 20 years).

Cause yeah like ia, Guts’ trauma – and not just the csa trauma but also the more overarching abuse from Gambino as he was growing up – is so vital to his entire character in the first two arcs. It informs everything about him from his insecurities, to the way he fights, to the reason he stayed with the Hawks and the reason he left the Hawks, etc. In the Black Swordsman arc, the reason he’s so angry is because Griffith sacrificing him wasn’t just a betrayal, but a replay of that childhood trauma. The ghosts haunting him and claiming him are an echo of Gambino calling him cursed and selling him to someone else. It all fits together perfectly and it’s so good.

And it is a relatively unique backstory when it comes to badass manly man action hero protagonists. I mean to be nitpicky Berserk is a seinen, not a shonen, but the csa backstories seem to be more inspired by classic shojo, based on some of the influences Miura cites (like Kaze to Ki no Uta), and combining those elements with typical seinen action stuff, especially since imo Miura did it very thoughtfully and very well up til the end of the Golden Age, does create a unique and v interesting story.

And then during and after the Eclipse Guts’ trauma is basically dropped, and he does feel more generic to me – more typically cool and badass, much less interestingly vulnerable. Like eg, his very personal, actual fear-for-himself during the Black Swordsman arc was a really compelling element! And the only post-Eclipse instance I can think of where he was shown to be genuinely afraid for his own life and well-being, rather than afraid of his own potential to do harm or afraid for the people he’s trying to protect, is when Slan shows up in the troll cave. And because there was a sexualized threat there I do think that was a deliberate reference to Guts’ own trauma. But it was one scene over a hundred chapters ago that didn’t really have any emotional resonance (unlike, say, the early Golden Age Zodd encounter which changed everything, or the Wyald encounter which imo shed a lot of light on Guts’ dream), and was far from overt.

So like I unfortunately also get the impression that Miura has largely dropped Guts’ personal trauma as a significant factor of his character and story in favour of the far more common and boring fridged girlfriend backstory.

But! I also still have hope that that’s not the case. I feel like Guts’ post Eclipse monster hunting rampage was largely a way to avoid dealing with his complicated feelings, and I feel the same way about Guts’ fix Casca quest. Like, maybe it’s not Miura dropping Guts’ personal trauma to focus on manpain – maybe it’s Guts deliberately cultivating rage to avoid confronting his more difficult feelings like fear and loneliness and longing etc.

Avoidance is kind of his thing, after all.

This may be (is probably) wishful thinking, but it does give me hope
that if the fix Casca quest goes pear shaped (eg Casca uses the behelit,
or something), Guts’ issues – his childhood, guilt, all his mixed feelings regarding Griffith, etc – will come back front and centre. We
have all the ominous foreshadowing about the Beast of Darkness and the
armour,

and if something makes him go wild and succumb to it it would be nice if it wasn’t just like a one-off bad event but rather a cumulation of everything he’s (I hope) been spending the last 3 years trying to distract himself from.

And then at some point after that he can be pulled back from the armour and yk, actually grow as a person by confronting his issues rather than hitting stuff with a sword, now armed with the knowledge that avoiding stuff just makes them fuck you up harder when your avoidance strategies fail you.

ofc that said, even if that is the case I think Miura’s fucked up w/ pacing. It’s been 250 chapters since the Eclipse, there’s a reason I feel like this is a vain hope even if it does make perfect sense to me as an explanation lol. Plus like… some details do seem to not be pointing in that direction. Like:

Are we meant to regard his choice to take Casca to Elfhelm to be immersing himself in sorrow? Because that is absolutely not the vibe I’m getting, but the dichotemy between chase Griffith for revenge = avoidance vs stick with Casca = positive healing is so explicitly drawn here that maybe Miura’s just half-assing the positive healing to the point where it looks like avoidance lmao. Like that is my genuine fear, is that everything from chapter 130 on is actually meant to be seen as Guts dealing with his shit lol.

But idk like there are still intriguing elements that may be evocative of Guts’ deeper issues, back even to his childhood, that pop up now and then, that I can point to as evidence that they may still be actually dealt with in the future. Like the aforementioned Slan scene, the way he’s still drawn to Griffith as his “true light,” the fact that the Beast of Darkness is personified as a dog

uhhh the self-destructiveness of the armour (the way he doesn’t feel pain and it knits his broken bones together etc) as a metaphor for the way fighting is basically a form of self-harm for him… idk like none of these things are addressed, but they’re there to be picked up on and therefore will hopefully cumulate in something more interesting eventually.

kas-sand-ra
replied to your post “I think there’s a strong argument to be made that, rather than being…”

Great meta! Know I finally know why the Casca/Guts has been bothering me.

thank you! I’m glad my thoughts resonated with you 🙂

madchen
replied to your post “madchen
replied to your post “since it’s been on topic a bit lately,…”

his lock screen and home screen is. griffith.

this makes me wonder if modern au guts would take pictures of him. either with griffith posing or candids.

izonis
replied to your post “It’d actually be pretty cool if we got more moments between Guts and…”

I like this analysis. I agree that this potential is unfortunately most likely not going to get explored, at least not any time soon – especially the way the manga is heading right now. But who knows, I’ve been wrong about predictions before… guess we still have fanfiction though if anything.

thank you!

Yeah my hopes aren’t high but I think there’s a chance Miura might explore some aspects once we get back to Guts’ side of the narrative. After all we’re at the culmination of his journey of the last 150ish chapters, so it’s the perfect time to bring those themes home and make a statement about Guts’ relationships etc. Like, if things go wrong w/ Casca’s mind coming back (thinking of omnious foreshadowing featuring the berserk armour and behelit), will his new friendships help prevent the worst from happening? Or will Guts’ emotional distance from them have negative consequences? That kinda thing.

But yeah it could also be that we’re just supposed to take it at face value that they’re a happy found family and it won’t really be examined in more depth than that. But I have my fingers crossed at least.

madchen
replied to your post “since it’s been on topic a bit lately, ya got any possessive guts hcs…”

you mentioning guts wants to lay his claim on griffith got me thinking about how absolutely enthusiastic and proud he would be in modern au of griff when they get married. like look at my beautiful smart sweet perfect husband. he’s mine and we have matt hung rings and everything. my husband 🙂

this is so cute omg i can’t handle this

i love them

Hey,what if it femto raped guts instead during the eclipse ? I think it would be more in character for femto (embodiment of grif self-loathing aka his fear of being a monster taking what it wants wtv it takes +nice parralel of grif interior monologue during his fight wt guts aka having guts wtv it takes),and more wise story-like (echo of guts past trauma+eclipse being bout him and not casca+the following chapter wld rly be bout guts+etc).And it wld have been depicted respectfully lol

this is a dicey topic so I’m putting it under a cut, cw for somewhat casual discussion of rape

tbh yeah it probably would’ve been more tastefully depicted, both the scene and the aftermath/trauma (not that that’s a hard bar to clear, but Miura does care more about realistic depictions of men with trauma than women with trauma lbr). I mean obviously it would’ve been extra fucked up and offensive w/ that predatory gay villain shit, but it’s not like the canon version is great on that score either. And you’re right that at least the misogynist fridging of a female character + subsequent manpain wouldn’t be a factor. Idk it’s a hypothetical so it doesn’t really matter whether it’d be more or less or the same amount of offensive anyway, and it’s all subjective when it comes to comparing misogyny vs homophobia lol.

and honestly I kinda asked myself the same thing while writing my long Griffith meta, particularly the third part where, yk, I got into parallels w/ the King and his feelings for Charlotte and Griffith’s self-loathing and potentially seeing his feelings as intrinsically predatory wrt the second duel, yadda yadda yadda. Like, I could see it as an alternate version of the Eclipse. I don’t think it would necessarily be ooc for a potential personification of Griffith’s inner evil.

It would be ooc for the Femto we got though imo. Bc Femto and NeoGriffith re-enforce Griffith’s denial, they’re all about denying that they give a single fuck. If raping Guts = Femto taking what he wants, then he’s admitting to himself that he wants him, and one of his main reasons for making the sacrifice was to stop wanting him. Like while I doubt this was Miura’s reasoning lol, I do think it makes sense for him to assault Casca rather than Guts (yk assuming an Eclipse rape has to happen). It fits the pattern of how they both use her as an intermediary to repress their feelings for each other.

And I mean obviously we can talk about how rape isn’t about sex or sexual desire but rather about power and degradation, but wrt a fictional depiction where the evil version of a dude who was in love with the protag sexually assaults him, you can’t really divorce that from the human version’s feelings. Tho I suppose it could be framed as like a version of the Hill of Swords scene, ie Femto testing himself in a grotesque way, so it doesn’t necessarily have to be an admittance of lingering, now twisted and evil feelings from his pov. Idk, whatever.

Anyway it would’ve wildly changed everything post Eclipse. tbh I think it would totally destroy Guts – not like drive him insane like Casca bc honestly that’s just Miura’s cop-out to avoid writing a realistically traumatized woman, but I mean like… it’s the opposite of what his deal is now, in a way.

If post-Eclipse Guts was largely motivated by this continued need for Griffith/Femto’s attention, that connection between them, to be hated as an enemy if he couldn’t be loved as a friend, etc, and I definitely think that’s the case, then like, sexual assault during the Eclipse is a way of hurting him while giving him that attention. A corrupted + weaponized aspect of something he wants.

Like idk I can’t even rly picture what his reaction would be if suddenly Femto’s attention/that “true light” bond between them was a terrifying source of trauma rather than something to pursue. Maybe he would still try to lash out and kill him, but less a genuine attempt and more suicide by monster? Like with how much more powerful Femto is, Guts would know he’s not actually a match for him, but he’s also so driven to kill as his number one reaction to everything that scares him. I feel like he’d have much less self-preservation (and BS Guts did not have much in the first place lbr) bc he doesn’t genuinely want to find and face Femto again in this version of events, and he’d be dead 1 or 2 apostles into his revenge spree.

I suppose there’s also room to explore more complicated feelings, like how would Guts feel about human Griffith in this circumstance – still regret and guilt, or would that be overwritten? Would this reach back and ruin his memories of the old days? Basically, does he still miss human Griffith? Is there any part of him that still wants Griffith’s attention despite everything? I mean you have canon lines like “is she not precious because she’s the wound Griffith left, because you want to keep feeling the pain he caused you,” after all. Like, what would the Beast of Darkness say to him now? If this AU version of the Eclipse rape was yk, the same as canon with the same focus on unwilling arousal + orgasm, how does that aspect fuck Guts up? etc etc.

But lbr those are questions more suited to darkfic than meta.

sobadpink
replied to your post “My favourite thing about Miura’s art style is just how much he can…”

It’s funny how weird and almost “bad” his anatomy is but how much better it’s gotten

yeah the Black Swordsman and v early Golden Age could get dodgy wrt anatomy imo but from Mid golden age on it seems pretty spot on to my untrained eye.

But even back then I still think his emotions were spot on – even if the expressions were a little less realistic/nuanced, he still conveyed all the right feelings imo.

My favourite thing about Miura’s art style is just how much he can convey through faces. Especially the way you can just see how Guts is still only, like, 24. Through all the scars and physical trauma you can still see how young he is and its absolutely heart-wrenching. chef’s kiss

SAME, some of the expressions he draws are just jaw-droppingly good. Like, how do you perfectly convey the feelings of someone who has just decided to sacrifice the person they love because that love drove them into despair? i have no idea, but damn if he didn’t pull it off:

I’d definitely say expressions are Miura’s biggest strength. Maybe it’s bc I’m not an artist lol, but it’s like magic to me how effectively he can convey complex emotion.

And yeah like you mention, there are some really effective moments when Guts looks so young and child-like even though his default appearance is definitely v adult throughout most of the manga. And it always feels natural, never off-model. Just like little hints of vulnerability that create a v strong emotional impression.

since it’s been on topic a bit lately, ya got any possessive guts hcs and general meta thoughtz asia

On the more headcanony side I think that like, Guts would be possessive but he wouldn’t really think of it as possessiveness – it’d feel like a natural extention of their v exclusive, v intense relationship. Griffith would be possessive in turn ofc.

And it wouldn’t manifest in like, being jealous of Charlotte if Griffith still plans to marry her for power. I figure they’d talk about that and Guts would understand it’s business lol, he wouldn’t be threatened by Charlotte. But at the same time he would demand Griffith’s attention and time. Maybe not literally demand lol, but he’s really emotionally needy lbr and I think he’d get sulky if he didn’t get enough time with Griffith bc he’s busy being a king or w/e. We see that in canon even, when he tries to visit him after Zodd but can’t bc of the nobles.

But then like in canon Griffith would reassure him and go out of his way to give him that time and attention because well, he’s also needy and they’re both obsessed with each other and neither wants to spend time apart.

So things like Griffith putting off some king stuff to laze around in bed with Guts would be perfect for Guts. Or things like having sex on the throne at three am when the room’s empty lol, or leaving tea with Charlotte early because the Raider Captain has something important to “discuss” with him. Guts would want to make his claim on Griffith, and have Griffith show that he’s the most important.

But again like, he wouldn’t express that, and Griffith (unless something drastic has gone down) wouldn’t admit to himself that Guts is the most important aspect of his life. But it would still show through in little moments and Guts would notice them (yk assuming no Promrose Hall speech colouring his perception etc etc).

Sexually you got leaving marks under clothes, fucking him hard enough that he still feels it the next day, teasing and drawing it out as a way of focusing Griffith’s attention wholly on him. Like, considering how needy they both are when it comes to wanting the others’ attention and regard and desire, sex could get ridiculously intense lol. We’ve talked about this before a bit but yk it holds true. They just both want to be wanted by the other so badly lol.

On the more meta-y side, I’d argue that their relationship comes with a side of possessiveness from both – again, as a kind of natural byproduct of the singular intensity of it. They are each others’ only one, and they both want to be each others’ only one. I don’t think there’s a lot of like, canon elements that demonstrate Guts being possessive to the same explicit extent of eg Griffith’s “if I can’t have him, I don’t care,” but imo it’s there under the surface.

Guts wants to make Griffith look at him. At first that’s the whole quest for a dream thing, but after the Eclipse it’s his revenge quest. He wants to kill him because, more than anything else, he wants acknowledgement that he matters to him.

This hold on Griffith is exactly what Guts wanted, and still wants.

It doesn’t manifest as jealousy, like we see him trying to set Griffith and Casca up for a while, but it’s more like, yk, that need for attention. He’s possessive of Griffith’s priorities. The reason I think he’s ok with setting Griffith and Casca up is because lover isn’t a category he can see himself fitting into, and moreover, true friend and equal trumps lover anyway as far as he’s concerned. His competition is Griffith’s dream, not Griffith’s other relationships.

I mean you can split hairs on the definition of possessiveness and whether Guts’ feelings count if it’s less jealousy and more wanting to be the most important person to Griffith, but yk I think it’s an element.

@kanade1111

hooo boy ok i can no longer interact with you here, i mean come on what on earth makes you think i’ll be receptive to or ok with the kind of misogynist shit you just said

i mean beyond not being a shitty person, like, read the damn room

Why should it be Casca? I don’t get it why people want her to do that.

really?? surely the reason you want Femto to suffer/be punished is because of the Eclipse rape… which Casca was the victim of. People want her to get revenge because she’s the one who was hurt the most. Meanwhile Guts cast her aside while using her suffering as an excuse to lash out, so I’d say he really doesn’t deserve to avenge anyone.

Whether Miura intended Guts’ actions to be fully interpreted that way idk, but we’re at least meant to condemn him for leaving Casca in a cave for 2 years while running around killing monsters.

Anyway my ideal ending is very far from yours, and I’m kind of surprised considering you introduced yourself to me as a huge Griffith/NeoGriffith fan. But yk, you do you, we clearly have very different priorities in what we want from the story.

My ideal ending is Femto dying in worst way possible or getting trapped in some endless loop of suffering and misery. “If Guts does happily kill NGriff without hesitation, that’ll be a v dark ending that indicates he’s lost his humanity, imo.” I like how some fans keep idealizing Guts like some sort of a righteous shounen hero… Dude is literally a savage. Look at how he treats his enemies or the apostles who have done way less shit in compare with Griffith.

I’m responding mainly to this part so I’m not c/ping the other messages (also i think your last message got cut off btw) but like, yeah Guts is a very dark character, but again that’s framed as a bad thing. We’re supposed to think he’s a huge dick during the Black Swordsman arc, eg. We’re meant to see his darkness as a sign that he’s close to becoming exactly the same as, or even worse than, the monsters he fights. He sexually assaulted Casca in part to feel “closer to” Griffith lol.

Like, my favourite Guts is when he’s at his most dark, but that would suck if the story was totally unselfaware and we were meant to cheer him on. In the first chapter when he tortures the snake dude, it’s a reversal of expectation, because we’re meant to find Guts frightening and to nearly pity the monster in that moment. Similarly when he tortures the Count in front of his daughter – except that is also much clearer in showing that Guts is pretty pathetic at that point, eg:

I think Miura kind of lost that sense of patheticness (another good example is the blatant comparisons to Vargas) after the Eclipse, which is a shame imo. But while his dark side gets a bit cooler (the Beast of Darkness, the armour), it’s still like… unambiguously negative. We’re not supposed to root for the part of him that wants to kill his friends.

Guts’ growth as a character is associated with making friends and not seeking revenge, Guts’ monstrousness is associated with going on a revenge rampage.

Anyway basically I think Berserk is more complex than a simple good vs evil revenge story. I think it’s very likely that Guts is going to backslide into revenge mode, losing himself to the armour and going after Griffith after some bad thing happens in Elfhelm, that’s like my major prediction for the future lol, but I don’t think it’s going to end with Guts self-assuredly “punishing” Griffith and living happily ever after.

Oh also there’s this:

Part of his decision to save Casca instead of keep seeking revenge is realizing he doesn’t really deserve revenge.

Like, I argue his whole Black Swordsman campaign was way less “righteously avenge the hawks and casca” and way more “I am upset so I am going to kill every monster I can find until I reach Griffith because swinging my sword makes me feel better.” And it’s an attitude he needs to grow out of.

Anyway aside from all that if anyone gets revenge and kills Griffith it should be Casca imo.

about guts being possessive with griffith in the dungeon while selfish is an interesting developement after casca told him that “griffith was no good without him right before being stabbed

Like, Guts feeling possessive of
Griffith as a response to Casca telling him that Griffith was
emotionally dependent on him? yk the knowledge that Griffith ended up
in a torture chamber because of him, whether he’s ready to acknowledge
that or not, basically making him feel like he’s allowed to express that
possessiveness bc Griffith has ott feelings for him back? Because if so I could def see that.

We see Guts musing on this fact in the tunnels on the way to Griffith too. I definitely think it’s informing a lot of his behaviour here, and in the lead-up to the Eclipse, maybe not consciously since he keeps trying to bury that realization (because guilt), but definitely subconsciously.

I also think it’s the main source of the rage that fuels his rampage through Midland, killing hundreds of soldiers and a monster. It’s a way of ignoring his guilt by turning the feeling outward onto acceptable targets. You could maybe also add that it’s why he snaps at Casca – he already has the urge to lash out at something, and a minute later the torturer shows up and then he’s able to fully express his feelings lol.

Also plz feel free to explain further if I missed something, I want to know your thoughts and idk if I interpreted what you mean right.

I was hoping you would make another post to respond to that ahaha.
Well what I actually meant is for Guts to kill Femto. Because Neo Griffith is apparently closer to a temporal illusionary image that appears in this world, just like.. Well, Neo. To actually kill him you should be able to go beyond the matrix, or as it was described in this case, go “outside” the story of the physical world. So even if NGriff is killed (which I doubt he would even mind) he would be still
existing as Femto in
the astral dimension. In order to bring the story to its ultimate
conclusion, Guts would prpbably need to face Femto in his true form. I
just can’t wait to see what happens from that point on… I hope Guts is
able to realize his revenge.

I think this makes sense as a theory but we don’t really have enough information right now about how the metaphysical world works in Berserk to confidently say what would happen if NeoGriffith was killed.

Like eg I’ve seen a lot of people who think that NGriff can change into Femto and that’s what he did when he killed Ganeshka, but imo we only saw him as Femto then because that’s how Ganeshka saw him, because he could see his “true” or “spiritual” or whatever form, because they were both ascended beings. But yk it’s all up in the air still.

I feel like Guts vs Femto on the astral plane would work in a different story with a greater focus on action, but Berserk is driven by complex emotions and relationships moreso than straightforward action so I feel v confident that the climax between them is going to have a strong emotional component. NeoGriffith has his inconveniently unfrozen heart, while Guts has his inconvenient mixed feelings, and I think both of those aspects are going to inform the climax.

I kinda figure that the big action sequence part of the climax is going to be Guts vs Zodd actually. I’d be surprised if we saw any actual physical fighting between Guts and Griffith/Femto/NeoGriffith, at least beyond a v emotionally-driven third duel kinda thing, along the lines of the second duel where the victor is decided by who’s less emotionally compromised.

Thank you for this post. (lol I meant to say “Why you SEE it in that way” sorry).
I always saw it in that was as if he didn’t want other people to view and be shocked at what was done to his face.
Either way current Guts wouldn’t hesitate to deform Griffith’s face in an even worse way… I’d fucking love to look at what he does with him when he has the power.

If that’s the impression you get from the manga then fair enough, but that reading never occurred to me until I watched the 3rd ova lol.

And tbh I definitely think Guts would hesitate

Also letting Rickert hold him back on the Hill of Swords, deliberately trying to let go of his desire for revenge for the sake of the Elfhelm trip, and the way he really sucks at finishing this sentence:

The way he separates Griffith from Femto, and usually pictures Femto as an empty faceless exoskeleton.

And only ever expresses longing and regret towards original Griffith:

And NeoGriffith looking “as if he’d been stolen from the past, the way he used to be” throws him completely off because it makes it harder to separate the different versions of him.

Basically imo his feelings towards NeoGriffith are far from simple, and I don’t think he’d find it emotionally easy to kill him.

And moreover his desire to kill is what gives the Beast of Darkness strength, so it’s framed as a negative thing in the story.

If Guts does happily kill NGriff without hesitation, that’ll be a v dark ending that indicates he’s lost his humanity, imo.

I really loved this moment as well. I didnt feel like they ruined it in the adaptations though, why do you it is this way?

imo the manga reads like Guts basically snarling in a v near to snapping rage, irrationally yelling at Casca to back off as she approaches, in what feels almost like a reversal of this moment

Guts isn’t blaming anyone (well other than himself), but essentially he’s angry about what’s happened to Griffith and lashes out for a moment indiscriminately in a possessive/protective way. I feel like he’d have the same reaction to anyone who took a step forward at that moment. And it fits neatly into the whole weird everyone’s jealous of everyone situation that’s been developing during the rescue mission too.

Idk about the original Japanese wording and delivery in the adaptions, but imo the anime dub sounds like Guts telling Casca to stay back because she needs to be protected from seeing Griffith’s scarred face, yk it sounds like he’s mainly concerned about Casca’s reaction. And the ova sub and dub give me the same vibe a little less overtly. “Just stay back” or something along those lines, + in the dub it’s delivered with concern moreso than seething anger.

Just doesn’t match this expression imo:

yk this might be my favourite under appreciated moment

both adaptions ruin it but the manga version is *chef kiss*

“

WHAT IS YOUR DEAL NEOGRIFF WHO ARE YOU??” – Me during the whole post-eclipse arcs. It drives me crazy because he is impossible to read. Neither are we being exposed to anything that goes inside his head.

Miura keeping him so ambiguous is part of what makes me think we’re headed to a big interesting reveal tbh. Like, there’ve been a lot of suggestive moments where his emotions are deliberately hidden, like watching Rickert escape Falconia. Guess we’ll have to wait and see.

a-girl-named-chester
replied to your post “Oh actually I do have one thing I can add about NeoGriffith, that I’ve…”

I dig the fuck out of this. Thematically if feels spot on, even if the Canon reality is more nuanced than mere theme, which of course, it is.

ty! I’m glad this idea works for ppl bc i love it lol.

ninjabelle:

bthump:

Oh actually I do have one thing I can add about NeoGriffith, that I’ve been kind of thinking for a while but haven’t posted because it’s potentially controversial lol

But I think you could make an argument that NeoGriffith is… Griffith. As though transforming from Femto back into a flesh and blood body returned his whole range of emotions as well, basically if NGriff has the same emotional and psychological make-up of human Griffith.

Like, imo he is exactly what Griffith would be if:

he talked to god and god told him he’s not responsible for anything and everything he chooses to do is the correct fate-sanctioned thing to happen and he’s basically just a pawn

he spent a few years as a demonic embodiment of the dark side of himself and humanity, with the rest of his humanity stripped away

while he was that demon, he committed an unforgiveable and unjustifiable act of evil for no reason but spite

he is removed from the rest of humanity because he has another level of awareness/partially exists on another metaphysical plane

he made the choice to sacrifice everyone he loves both to achieve his dream and to cut out his heart because his feelings for guts ruined his life and sent him into suicidal despair

Like, basically NeoGriffith as Griffith in deep, deep, deep denial lmao, and finding it really easy to stay in denial because god gave him a thumbs up and he’s extra detached from his human emotions due to being a godlike entity with intimate knowledge of fate/the astral plane/his place in the world/etc.

I say this as someone who genuinely believes that human Griffith was more or less a good person. But I still think it would absolutely be in character for a Griffith who remembers being Femto to tell Guts he regrets nothing and then leave to do his thing.

So in this way you could say that NeoGriffith is the extreme fantasy story version of a dude who deliberately detaches himself from his own emotions for the sake of achieving a goal.

But to be clear I don’t think this is actually the case in canon.

I think NGriff probably actually has magically dampened emotions due to the sacrifice, and due to having magically transformed a few times most of human Griffith is genuinely lost, like we see him losing pieces of himself, and I don’t think he got those pieces back.

But like, I think NGriff kind of works on another level as not just the embodiment of the image Griffith portrayed, but how he maintained it, ie, by denying all his feelings. And I find the idea of NGriff as Griffith-in-extreme-denial really like… interesting and fun lol, in a headcanon way.

@kanade1111

@bthump whew it’s been a while since ive talked berserk w/you but i had to reply cause this. this is so much more than a hc to me because i’ve always felt it HAD to be (at least semi) canon that neogriff HAS feeling but that he chooses to bury/ignore them instead.

‘it seems i’m finally free’ MY ASS.

femto was the emotionally distant one, or at least the ‘complete monster’ version of griffith that (could) truly rise above his mortal feelings and he still was acting out of spite over guts and casca and all that hurt he had to endure (partly/MOSTLY over them) when he was still human.

it blows my mind when people argue griffith now has no feelings when the whole driving force of the entire golden age and after when everything went to shit was because of the sheer depth of his emotions for guts because let’s be real that’s all we’re here for) and the fact that he tried (in vain) to bury them- which then caused them to come out later in uglier ways.

(there’s that quote by Freud right…)

“Unexpressed emotions will never die. They are buried alive and will come forth later in uglier ways.”

AKA berserk: a summary.

I agree 100% with neogriff being in denial tho, like wouldn’t he love it to be free of his obsession with guts? wouldn’t the old griffith who had his heart more or less cut to pieces over his doomed love for guts give anything to be free of those feeling so he could pursue that dream of his that killed thousands? OF COURSE HE WOULD. but that’s not the reality of it. not even now that he’s gained this new body and his new kingdom.

like there is no doubt in my mind that consciously or subconsciously everything neogriff does or will do plot-wise is not going to at some point be overshadowed by his eternal longing for guts.

and anyone who disagrees can fight me.

If he did lose parts of himself that’s only right, like a dark reflection of guts who continuously tries to rid himself of whatever’s left of his love for griffith that could stand in the way of him absolutely destroying him. (i mean- counting the parts before the happy boat trip from hell. like- when things were still, yknow, good.)

and yeah maybe there is ancient demon magic sealing griff’s heart from unwanted emotions that could stand in the way of HIM achieving HIS goals but like- didn’t it throb tho- bthump– when he saw guts again? even if it’s at 0.01% capacity I’LL TAKE IT. It’s enough, even if it’s a sorry remnant of everything there used to be i’m sure eventually it’ll be enough to fuck up all his plans, i mean with his invulnerability now honestly what else could cripple neogriff now other than his heart itself? SO POETIC.

(also i remember when ppl used to send you song recs?? they were so good man i made an entire playlist. here’s another one: say it right by nelly furtado ‘oh you don’t mean nothing at all to me’ ugh so perfect for this little piece of meta, i listened to it on repeat typing this lmao)

Oh yeah I mean like, I 100% believe that NeoGriffith still has some emotion lol, I’d be willing to bet real money that we’re headed straight to a reveal that he’s not nearly as over Guts as he wants to be. But I think that canonically he’s somewhere between “Griffith in turbo denial mode” and “totally emotionless shell.”

Like, dude is going to do something irrational when Guts shows up again. That’s just how narratives work man, it’s gotta happen. I’ll join you in that fight lol. So I completely agree with you.

Also ty for the rec, it totally works for me. and lol ikwym the recs ppl sent me made my berserk playlist like twice as long, it’s gr8.

Oh actually I do have one thing I can add about NeoGriffith, that I’ve been kind of thinking for a while but haven’t posted because it’s potentially controversial lol

But I think you could make an argument that NeoGriffith is… Griffith. As though transforming from Femto back into a flesh and blood body returned his whole range of emotions as well, basically if NGriff has the same emotional and psychological make-up of human Griffith.

Like, imo he is exactly what Griffith would be if:

he talked to god and god told him he’s not responsible for anything and everything he chooses to do is the correct fate-sanctioned thing to happen and he’s basically just a pawn
he spent a few years as a demonic embodiment of the dark side of himself and humanity, with the rest of his humanity stripped away
while he was that demon, he committed an unforgiveable and unjustifiable act of evil for no reason but spite
he is removed from the rest of humanity because he has another level of awareness/partially exists on another metaphysical plane
he made the choice to sacrifice everyone he loves both to achieve his dream and to cut out his heart because his feelings for guts ruined his life and sent him into suicidal despair

Like, basically NeoGriffith as Griffith in deep, deep, deep denial lmao, and finding it really easy to stay in denial because god gave him a thumbs up and he’s extra detached from his human emotions due to being a godlike entity with intimate knowledge of fate/the astral plane/his place in the world/etc.

I say this as someone who genuinely believes that human Griffith was more or less a good person. But I still think it would absolutely be in character for a Griffith who remembers being Femto to tell Guts he regrets nothing and then leave to do his thing.

So in this way you could say that NeoGriffith is the extreme fantasy story version of a dude who deliberately detaches himself from his own emotions for the sake of achieving a goal.

But to be clear I don’t think this is actually the case in canon.

I think NGriff probably actually has magically dampened emotions due to the sacrifice, and due to having magically transformed a few times most of human Griffith is genuinely lost, like we see him losing pieces of himself, and I don’t think he got those pieces back.

But like, I think NGriff kind of works on another level as not just the embodiment of the image Griffith portrayed, but how he maintained it, ie, by denying all his feelings. And I find the idea of NGriff as Griffith-in-extreme-denial really like… interesting and fun lol, in a headcanon way.

said:
What are your thoughts about the current Griffith? In my eyes he has
become like the Snow Queen – Beautiful, yet cold and empty. Practically
unable to experience emotion and lacking in any humanity. A pretty
doll. A shell. A walking facade. What do you think?

My answer to this ties into the other thing you asked me to expand on, re: Griffith and contrasts, so I guess I’m just kind of doing both answers at once.

Basically I agree, but I think there’s more to NeoGriffith (ie post Femto, resurrected, godlike Griffith) than that.

Griffith as a human is so interesting to me in part because he’s full of contrasts, which is one of those hooks that really get me interested in a character. And those contrasts mostly stem from this attitude right here:

He hides away all of his weaknesses, his negative thoughts, the truth of what actually drives him on (guilt), his self-loathing, even from himself. He smiles and portrays an image of perfection so well that he essentially believes it himself most of the time.

So you have things like the Promrose Hall speech, where he’s fully embodying that image of himself:

vs Casca’s flashback, which is a glimpse of his darker, much more fucked up self underneath, and directly contradicts the above:

So you have the contrast between the perfect leader, the guy who can take down an army of 30,000 with 5,000, the guy who waxes poetic about how great dreams are, the guy who is this fucking cool while burning a queen alive:

And the guy who self-harms after prostituting himself to a pedophile to prevent as many deaths of his followers as possible despite claiming he doesn’t feel responsible for them, the guy who falls to pieces and destroys his own life when Guts leaves, the guy who hates himself and desperately wants to be told he’s not a monster:

And both are Griffith. Griffith isn’t just faking his confidence, he genuinely is that confident. He genuinely believes that his dream is a worthwhile pursuit in and of itself, and he can’t call any of his followers friends because they’re clinging to his dream rather than finding their own dreams.

He’s portrayed that image so fully that it’s a real part of him. But at the same time, sometimes it shatters and reveals the exact opposite underneath: the self loathing, the fear, the fact that he’s in love with Guts and has nearly lost his dream because of that love multiple times (ie nearly dying while trying to save him from Zodd, burning his own life down after Guts leaves, even going back and rescuing him personally that first week).

And that brings me to NeoGriffith, because what NeoGriffith is, is that image, and only that image, with none of the very human weaknesses behind it.

He’s described as a painting, as untouchable, etc, like fifty million times.

He’s basically become the impression he used to leave people with.

If Griffith contradicted himself – confidence vs insecurity, conviction vs self loathing, unwaveringly pursuing his dream vs Guts making him forget his dream, etc – then NeoGriffith is one side minus the other. Confidence, no insecurity, conviction, no self-loathing, the dream, no Guts.

And it’s uncanny too. He’s pursuing the dream, but he’s no longer motivated by his very human feelings of guilt (and also fear/insecurity, which we’re shown here:

I got this whole argument about dreams in Berserk being essentially shitty coping mechanisms lol, which I won’t get into now but is worth mentioning as another aspect of human Griffith that NeoGriffith lacks)

He’s lost his human flaws, and that makes him kind of disturbing imo, because those human flaws drove him, and now he’s driven by nothing, he just is.

And, just as a side note, it’s also worth noting that Femto is the other side imo – the self-loathing, the insecurity – in the sense that Femto is the embodiment of the monster Griffith believed himself to be deep down, the monster he believed Guts saw him as too, after this exchange (and then Guts leaving):

I mean it’s ultimately the final puzzle piece that makes him agree to the sacrifice:

And I 100% believe that NeoGriffith is referencing that here with his “you, of all people”:

So like, tl;dr Griffith is a land of contradictions, and that’s embodied in 2 magical fantasy transformations that make those disparate elements of him literal personifications.

NeoGriffith is the side of himself that he showed the world as a human, stripped of his humanity, and Femto is basically a personification of his own self-loathing, in which he became everything he feared himself to be, everything Guts failed to tell him he wasn’t.

But this is just like, the thematic take lol. This is what I think NeoGriffith essentially represents. But it’s also more complicated than that, because

But when it comes to like, NeoGriffith as a character, rather than a construct, who potentially still has emotions and ties to his previous life, I guess I’ll leave you with links because I don’t really have much new to say:

https://bthump.tumblr.com/post/173364837891/ninjabelle-god-i-was-in-physical-pain-reading

https://bthump.tumblr.com/post/160721048701/so-like-this-is-one-of-my-favourite-non-golden-age

https://bthump.tumblr.com/post/162388988876/mastermistressofdesire-bthump-well-so-far

https://bthump.tumblr.com/post/176251529761/im-lightweight-confused-about-the-whole-neogriff

Basically I think there’s plenty of indication that Griffith failed to entirely purge himself of emotion and isn’t quite the serene image of perfection he seems.