sorry I’m not sure if you’ve answered this before or not but I have to ask you. I was lurking reddit the other day and I found this post about guts choosing casca over his revenge on griffith. what do you think?

I genuinely think the authorially intended reading of Guts’ decision is that it’s complicated and there are multiple reasons Guts is choosing to take Casca to Elfhelm over revenge right now. It’s not a simple matter of Casca straightforwardly being more important to him or just choosing Casca over Griffith.

Hopefully this is the kind of answer you’re looking for, idk the subject is a little broad. I’ve kind of said this in some other posts too but I think it’d be handy to have a nice and orderly list to link to so I’m just throwing it all out in response to you.

So here are the various complicated reasons I think Guts has for going on his take Casca to Elfhelm quest:

1. He gives a fuck about Casca. He gave a fuck about her and saved her life even back when he hated her, because she was his comrade, and I’d certainly hope he cares about her now.

2. Elf cave is gone, and he’s not so shitty a person that he’s just going to abandon her in a field for ghosts to eat.

3. He is aware that revenging made him a worse person and he wants to be better. Guts at his best is someone who does not abandon his friends and family but rather stands by them in their hours of need, and he wants to be that person again.

Good Guts:

Bad Guts:

Good Guts:

Bad Guts:

Like, yk, abandoning people or staying with them is kind of Guts’ major thing throughout the story.

4. He is longing for a piece of his lost past, and Casca represents the Hawks.

Additionally suggested by how every time he pictures her from the past, after that last pic, it’s as a Hawk commander.

And statements like this:

And the general fact that he’s trying to “force” her sanity back despite forboding warnings and actually contemplating on page how awful it might be for Casca, suggesting that it’s less for Casca’s own sake and more Guts’ selfish need to regain some of his happy past.

5. Griffith looking human and sexy makes him forget his urge to kill, lessening the temptation of revenge and probably making Guts doubt his ability to follow through.

nuff said

6. Guts’ whole revenge campaign was less about revenge and more about making himself feel better and getting Griffith’s attention. Last time he saw Griffith the dude declared that he was completely free of his feelings for him and then “deserted” him in the snow lol. This has also lessened the temptation of revenge – now pursuing Griffith feels extra fruitless, because Griffith (claims he) doesn’t give a fuck.

quick illustration:

swinging his sword making him feel better

guts wanting attention

also i have this much longer post here where i talk a lot about guts’ attitude towards revenge and femto and neogriffith etc for a more thorough explanation

7. He feels guilty for abandoning Griffith back in the Golden Age and refusing to abandon Casca (this time) is a way to make up for that mistake.

8. Like the Beast of Darkness says, Casca reminds him of “the wound Griffith left” because he wants to keep feeling the pain he caused him. Both because it helps simplify his conflicting and confusing feelings into rage, and because, harkening back to point 6, imho it’s a masochistic reminder that he meant enough to Griffith for him to be worth lashing out at.

I mean consider the context of some discussions of wounds in berserk. “I too want a wound… that I can say you gave me.”

Or Griffith tracing his shoulder where Guts’ sword failed to touch him, maybe:

Anyway regardless of how suggestively that statement can be taken in the greater context of Berserk and wounds, there’s definitely some truth to it because it’s what Miura gave as the reason he didn’t kill Casca:

“The only point I was cautious about was not to completely stop the
story’s flow with the Eclipse. I kept Casca alive precisely for that
reason. That’s because even if she died, and if the series continued for
a long time, Guts’ reason to seek revenge would become a thing of the
past and if Guts formed new relationships with people, his motivation
would weaken. It’s a cold, calculating move and it might feel
unpleasant, but it’s exactly because Guts has Casca at his side that he
can never forget about the Eclipse.”

9. He’s still planning to return his focus to Griffith eventually. He hasn’t so much given up his revenge quest as put it on hold. It’s probably easier to say “not now” to himself than to say “never.”

10. Narrative convenience keeps him on the straight and narrow. eg:

cue Guts literally passing right out ten seconds later. it’s pretty easy to decide to get on a boat instead of get revenge when you can barely stand and going for revenge would be literal suicide. and even then Guts needed Serpico to step in and tell him not to be a dumbass.

Soooo yeah I think that about covers the various reasons Guts has for putting aside his revenge quest to take Casca to Elfhelm, which add up to smthn a lot more complicated than choosing Casca over revenge. I contemplated adding another section that’s like… a giant list of Guts utterly failing to prioritize Casca or demonstrate that she’s “more precious than Griffith” lol, but I might just do that in a separate post next time I’m feeling salty.

Something funny that I noticed in a chapter of Berserk is that the king of the fairies told Guts that Casca is “scared” but honestly, is that true? because Casca did show fear to Guts after the elicpse … but after the birth of Griffith she let herself be played by Guts even though it was difficult to handle her, but everything changed when Guts tried to rape her, which generated in that Casca hate and all her expressions They showed that, a quite understandable hatred.

Sorry, just want to make sure I’m understanding you correctly, do you mean you think that instead of being afraid of Guts after he sexually assaulted her, Casca hates him?

Bc honestly I’d argue that it’s probably both, or at least I’d like to hope Miura doesn’t boil Casca’s feelings down to “fear” but allows for some rage and hatred too.

I think the timeline of Casca’s feelings that we’re pretty explicitly shown is that after the Eclipse she’s scared and mistrustful of him (Guts forcibly grabbing her several times afterwards and nearly kissing her after ripping her dress probably didn’t help that), but then Puck speculates that Casca “sensed” that Guts rescued her during the Conviction arc and therefore trusted him.

Then Guts got possessed and strangled her, dragged her around tied to a rope for a while, then sexually assaulted her, and those positive feelings understandably vanished to be replaced with fear, mistrust, and ia, what definitely looks like hatred in a lot of her expressions. And I really hope that’s followed through and not ignored or downplayed.

Do you think that guts keeps casca around (post-eclipse) just because “she’s the wound griffith left” and he wants “to keep feeling the pain” griffith caused him, as the beast of darkness said, or is it also bc he cares about her?

I’m not gonna argue that Guts doesn’t care about her at all lol, but I do think the fact that she’s a reminder of the pain Griffith caused is a very important aspect, and is likely to come up again since Miura mentioned it as the reason he kept her alive (ie to keep Guts from moving on) in a 2017 interview.

I don’t think that’s the only reason Guts is sticking with Casca now, I think there are like, a bunch of other reasons as well. The fact that she’s a reminder of his past with the Hawks and he wants to bring her mind back to recover a piece of that idyllic past. The fact that he wants to try to move on from Griffith after Griffith pronounced himself free of him tbqh, and focusing on a new objective is a good way to attempt that. (And incidentally I think it’s purposeful that keeping her around as a reminder of the Eclipse and trying to move on thru taking her to Elfhelm are contradictory, but that doesn’t mean Guts can’t be motivated by both reasons.)

And also the fact that he does genuinely care about her. Like even if I don’t think he’s actually in love with her, and I don’t, Guts cares about his friends and comrades. He saved her even back when he hated her, when she fell off that cliff. His revenge campaign was damaging to himself in part because like… by abandoning Casca he kind of betrayed himself, because at his core he wants to help the people he cares about, he wants to be there for them. Abandoning her in a cave for 3 years is like, the exact opposite of our (chronologically) first image of him, when he was three and held his mother’s hand as she died.

So yk, another aspect is that at his best, Guts stands up and does the right thing for the people he considers friends and family, and at his worst, he fucks off and leaves them to fend for themselves. And Guts is trying to be more his best and less his worst.

Oh and ofc relatedly he’s trying to atone for leaving Griffith in the snow. He draws that parallel a lot when he decides to focus on Casca lol.

I’ll also link this post bc it basically says much the same thing but with pictoral evidence lol

eastern-lycanthrope:

bthump:

I think there’s a strong argument to be made that, rather than being
depicted as burgeoning true love ruined by the Eclipse for the
sake of extra tragedy, Guts and Casca getting together is depicted as a mistake from the start.

Keep reading

This is really cool and all but, if Guts didn’t love Casca in the true sense of the word, why did he travel half the world to rehabilitate her?

Well canonically there are a few alternative motives suggested:

That’s the darkest one. Incidentally it’s also the reason Miura gave for not killing Casca off – because Casca keeps Guts angry and prevents him from fully moving on – so it’s not just the Hound spinning his wheels, it’s a legit factor.

There’s also making up for past mistakes:

Longing for a piece of the good old days:

Which I suggest because almost every time Guts thinks of the old Casca it’s as a Hawk commander, rather than as a lover. Plus his insistence on “forcing” Casca’s sanity back despite warnings suggests to me it’s not really selfless on Guts’ part.

And honestly I think partially it’s because:

Prior to NGriff’s dismissal Guts still planned to go after him:

Erika suggests making the cave homier and staying with Casca, so Casca will be content and won’t run off again. Guts is like, yeah that’s true, and then:

Then he goes into his “the instant I saw him, I’d forgotten my urge to kill” internal monologue, raging at himself for his lack of desire to kill Griffith (”and that can’t be!”)

He’s still planning to go after him again, but then NGriff completely refuses to even give him the time of day, mysteriously saves Casca, and fucks off, and that’s when Guts decides to stick with Casca this time.

So imo it’s also partially because “I’d forgotten my urge to kill” + NGriff “deserting” him = losing his drive for revenge. Now he’s emotionally capable of trying to move on, so he’s seizing on that because revenge was a big self-destructive mess and he totally failed in his goal of either killing Femto or getting his attention, and Godo + Rickert etc all kept hammering it into his head that he’s better off taking care of the last remnant of the Hawks.

And bc Griffith’s apparently successfully moved on from him, so he wants to move on from Griffith and he’s focusing on Casca to do so.

I mean if you ship Guts and Casca and think love is Guts’ strongest motivator then go for it, it’s also one potential explanation, and maybe it’ll end up unambiguously confirmed as true love, but I honestly don’t get the impression that Guts is in love with her at any point myself. I think Guts’ actions make perfect sense even if romantic love isn’t a genuine factor, and some of his actions make very little sense if he’s truly in love with her (like leaving her in a cave for two years and then needing to debate with himself before he actually decides to take a time out from revenge and rescue her in the conviction arc.)

Like I think he’d make the same choice to go to Elfhelm if his relationship with her had remained platonic the whole time, or if it was Judeau who survived but lost his sanity, etc.

Thank you for this post. (lol I meant to say “Why you SEE it in that way” sorry).
I always saw it in that was as if he didn’t want other people to view and be shocked at what was done to his face.
Either way current Guts wouldn’t hesitate to deform Griffith’s face in an even worse way… I’d fucking love to look at what he does with him when he has the power.

If that’s the impression you get from the manga then fair enough, but that reading never occurred to me until I watched the 3rd ova lol.

And tbh I definitely think Guts would hesitate

Also letting Rickert hold him back on the Hill of Swords, deliberately trying to let go of his desire for revenge for the sake of the Elfhelm trip, and the way he really sucks at finishing this sentence:

The way he separates Griffith from Femto, and usually pictures Femto as an empty faceless exoskeleton.

And only ever expresses longing and regret towards original Griffith:

And NeoGriffith looking “as if he’d been stolen from the past, the way he used to be” throws him completely off because it makes it harder to separate the different versions of him.

Basically imo his feelings towards NeoGriffith are far from simple, and I don’t think he’d find it emotionally easy to kill him.

And moreover his desire to kill is what gives the Beast of Darkness strength, so it’s framed as a negative thing in the story.

If Guts does happily kill NGriff without hesitation, that’ll be a v dark ending that indicates he’s lost his humanity, imo.

said:
What are your thoughts about the current Griffith? In my eyes he has
become like the Snow Queen – Beautiful, yet cold and empty. Practically
unable to experience emotion and lacking in any humanity. A pretty
doll. A shell. A walking facade. What do you think?

My answer to this ties into the other thing you asked me to expand on, re: Griffith and contrasts, so I guess I’m just kind of doing both answers at once.

Basically I agree, but I think there’s more to NeoGriffith (ie post Femto, resurrected, godlike Griffith) than that.

Griffith as a human is so interesting to me in part because he’s full of contrasts, which is one of those hooks that really get me interested in a character. And those contrasts mostly stem from this attitude right here:

He hides away all of his weaknesses, his negative thoughts, the truth of what actually drives him on (guilt), his self-loathing, even from himself. He smiles and portrays an image of perfection so well that he essentially believes it himself most of the time.

So you have things like the Promrose Hall speech, where he’s fully embodying that image of himself:

vs Casca’s flashback, which is a glimpse of his darker, much more fucked up self underneath, and directly contradicts the above:

So you have the contrast between the perfect leader, the guy who can take down an army of 30,000 with 5,000, the guy who waxes poetic about how great dreams are, the guy who is this fucking cool while burning a queen alive:

And the guy who self-harms after prostituting himself to a pedophile to prevent as many deaths of his followers as possible despite claiming he doesn’t feel responsible for them, the guy who falls to pieces and destroys his own life when Guts leaves, the guy who hates himself and desperately wants to be told he’s not a monster:

And both are Griffith. Griffith isn’t just faking his confidence, he genuinely is that confident. He genuinely believes that his dream is a worthwhile pursuit in and of itself, and he can’t call any of his followers friends because they’re clinging to his dream rather than finding their own dreams.

He’s portrayed that image so fully that it’s a real part of him. But at the same time, sometimes it shatters and reveals the exact opposite underneath: the self loathing, the fear, the fact that he’s in love with Guts and has nearly lost his dream because of that love multiple times (ie nearly dying while trying to save him from Zodd, burning his own life down after Guts leaves, even going back and rescuing him personally that first week).

And that brings me to NeoGriffith, because what NeoGriffith is, is that image, and only that image, with none of the very human weaknesses behind it.

He’s described as a painting, as untouchable, etc, like fifty million times.

He’s basically become the impression he used to leave people with.

If Griffith contradicted himself – confidence vs insecurity, conviction vs self loathing, unwaveringly pursuing his dream vs Guts making him forget his dream, etc – then NeoGriffith is one side minus the other. Confidence, no insecurity, conviction, no self-loathing, the dream, no Guts.

And it’s uncanny too. He’s pursuing the dream, but he’s no longer motivated by his very human feelings of guilt (and also fear/insecurity, which we’re shown here:

I got this whole argument about dreams in Berserk being essentially shitty coping mechanisms lol, which I won’t get into now but is worth mentioning as another aspect of human Griffith that NeoGriffith lacks)

He’s lost his human flaws, and that makes him kind of disturbing imo, because those human flaws drove him, and now he’s driven by nothing, he just is.

And, just as a side note, it’s also worth noting that Femto is the other side imo – the self-loathing, the insecurity – in the sense that Femto is the embodiment of the monster Griffith believed himself to be deep down, the monster he believed Guts saw him as too, after this exchange (and then Guts leaving):

I mean it’s ultimately the final puzzle piece that makes him agree to the sacrifice:

And I 100% believe that NeoGriffith is referencing that here with his “you, of all people”:

So like, tl;dr Griffith is a land of contradictions, and that’s embodied in 2 magical fantasy transformations that make those disparate elements of him literal personifications.

NeoGriffith is the side of himself that he showed the world as a human, stripped of his humanity, and Femto is basically a personification of his own self-loathing, in which he became everything he feared himself to be, everything Guts failed to tell him he wasn’t.

But this is just like, the thematic take lol. This is what I think NeoGriffith essentially represents. But it’s also more complicated than that, because

But when it comes to like, NeoGriffith as a character, rather than a construct, who potentially still has emotions and ties to his previous life, I guess I’ll leave you with links because I don’t really have much new to say:

https://bthump.tumblr.com/post/173364837891/ninjabelle-god-i-was-in-physical-pain-reading

https://bthump.tumblr.com/post/160721048701/so-like-this-is-one-of-my-favourite-non-golden-age

https://bthump.tumblr.com/post/162388988876/mastermistressofdesire-bthump-well-so-far

https://bthump.tumblr.com/post/176251529761/im-lightweight-confused-about-the-whole-neogriff

Basically I think there’s plenty of indication that Griffith failed to entirely purge himself of emotion and isn’t quite the serene image of perfection he seems.

I’m always gonna be pissed at Miura for making Isidro an annoying sidekick for Guts. I wish Miura would have went for a more father/son type of bond with them (although I feel that’s actually what he might have been going for in the beginning, but at this point it’s totally gone imo). There was a lot of potential there but now Isidro is really just so pointless in my eyes and it makes me kinda sad. I just feel like Miura could do so much more with his characters :/

yeah, big mood. I’ve kind of got some mixed feelings because I hate Isidro and I don’t want him to have more importance lol, and I dislike parenthood narratives in general, but it’s still so true that Guts could’ve had much more meaningful relationships with everyone in the rpg group, and it’s kind of glaring to me that he doesn’t.

idk I keep wondering if it’s just because I’m biased towards the golden age lol, if I’m willfully downplaying significant moments between Guts and his new group, or if the interesting aspects are there but subtle and I’m just failing to appreciate it, but idk I mean I’ve read the latter stuff twice or more recently and Guts’ new relationships leave me cold. imo the most interesting relationships in Guts’ narrative are between Farnese and Casca, Farnese and Serpico, and Schierke and Farnese. The one relationship Guts has to anyone that I feel any emotion about is Guts and Puck’s friendship, and that’s been almost dropped completely lol.

Like, I feel more genuine warmth and love between Guts and various random background raiders than Guts and anyone in the rpg group lol.

And I think it does actually make sense for that to be the case from a character standpoint – Guts deliberately keeping them at a distance because he’s been burned before when he lost people he cares about, because he doesn’t trust himself not to turn on them, because he still intends to drop them eventually and return to his revenge quest, etc – but if it is purposeful then I wish I could be shown that from Guts’ perspective. And not just through the Beast taunting him while he’s unconscious (eg ”make them precious to you, it’s all the more to lose”).

I want more moments of self-reflection and telling emotion from Guts, basically. Like, I would’ve loved to see, say, Guts starting to push Isidro too hard during swordfight training and then realizing what he’s doing with a bit of horror and ending it early. Or maybe Guts himself drawing a comparison between Farnese wanting to be useful and Casca wanting to be Griffith’s sword and being a little perturbed. Or in a positive direction, maybe include a scene on the boat where Guts thanks Serpico for stopping him from challenging Zodd with some similar language to the old staircase conversation. Or a million other possible examples of showing what Guts’ current relationships mean to him that I just feel we don’t really get.

It’d actually be pretty cool if we got more moments between Guts and Serpico. It kinda surprises me that there haven’t been more tbh, they’re the closest in age rn in the new squad, and there are some similarities between Serpico and Griffith. Also Serpico’s personality balances out well with Guts’ personality imo. Maybe we’ll get some development in the future?

ia, I think Guts and Serpico have a lot of potential for an interesting relationship dynamic, parallels, contrasts, both wrt their relationships and each other as individuals. Yk in the conviction arc serpico and farnese had some griffguts vibes (well everyone in the conviction arc did lol), they both have abusive childhoods that involved taking care of a parent and eventually killing them, they’re actually both relatively chill people but guts has a force of personality and a drive that serpico doesn’t have, idk there’s a lot of interesting comparisons to make imo.

tbh their relationship feels way shallower than it could, but honestly I feel the same way about most aspects of guts’ narrative from the millenium falcon arc on. so I’d love to see more development, but I’m not like counting on it lol.

(maybe it’s purposefully shallow to show that Guts isn’t really fully connecting with anyone in his new group. like guts and serpico dueled but… guts doesn’t really give a fuck. serpico saved guts from zodd but guts doesn’t really reflect on that or care. anything interesting between them is from serpico’s point of view, eg reflecting on how being around guts has changed him. guts just gets his bland little ‘hey thanks for the help you guys’ moment in elfhelm and that’s about it.

i’d like to think that’s a purposeful contrast to guts’ actual meaningful relationships of the golden age lol, buuuuuuut yeah right lol, that’s wishful thinking. miura’s just halfassing it.

it’s like guts going to get farnese back from her family. it’s nice, it makes me happy that guts values farnese, but what does that mean for guts? how does his relationship with farnese, or serpico, or schierke, or isidro, etc, make him feel? he likes them, he wants to protect them, but how do they fit in to his complex inner life? i can come up with a million ways griffith and the hawks reflected and refracted guts’ childhood for instance, but not the rpg group.

maybe the difference is that guts is now fulfilling gambino/griffith’s role. he’s switched from needer of attention to distant giver of attention. there are parallels there in theory, yk farnese’s admiration, teaching isidro to fight, casca/shizu similarities potentially, serpico comparing guts to fire/blazing inferno that is griffith, blah blah blah. but they also… don’t seem to emotionally affect guts much. like damn imagine if guts himself was making a comparison between himself and gambino and fearing his own potential to be a shitty abusive life ruiner. instead that all gets channeled into the beast of darkness stuff, easily blamed on a magic suit of armour, without a hint of awareness on guts’ part of the potential parallels there.

uhhhh i went off on a weird tangent, sorry lol.)

I’m lightweight confused about the whole NeoGriff, does he still care about Guts? Or have any feelings for him? Like is there any proof of this

Well there’s no proof, in the sense of like a definitive statement, because I think the point of NeoGriffith’s narrative right now is that it’s ambiguous. We’re being teased with the possibility, but Griffith is using the fetus as a scapegoat and excuse to ignore his feelings, and it’s technically left up in the air as to whether that’s true or whether Griffith is in denial. The reader is meant to be uncertain right now.

That said, I’m gonna give two reasons I’m 110% certain NGriff’s feelings are legit:

the first is straight up the entirety of Berserk lmao. Guts and Griffith’s feelings for each other are the core of the story, the driving thrust of every aspect of the narrative, from the Black Swordsman arc’s climactic reveal of those feelings, to the Golden Age’s exploration of them, to the Millenium Falcon arc’s tension as Guts tries to let go of those feelings and NeoGriffith’s feelings are left very pointedly ambiguous.

Like, even when Guts chooses Casca in the MF arc, his choice to stick with Casca is framed as the alternative to his feelings for Griffith. Those feelings drive Guts, whether it’s in feeling like he’s found the place where he belongs, striving to feel like he’s earned Griffith’s friendship, striving to hunt him down and kill him, or striving to escape his feelings.

You cannot write a story about those feelings, make Griffith’s choice to escape those feelings the epic climax of his narrative, then tease that those feelings may still exist only to go ‘psyche it’s actually just the unrelated feelings of a fetus.’ You can use the fetus to keep things ambiguous until the big reveal, but you can’t have the fetus be the reveal. it would be comedically absurd.

But the second reason is the visual details of two scenes:

Femto, completely pre-fetus, letting Guts go. These are Griffith’s feelings, maybe not entirely wiped away because Guts managed to survive the sacrifice, but for whatever reason, they’re there, and they’re still making him do irrational stupid shit for Guts.

We know Femto didn’t let Guts escape because he needed two people w/ brands of sacrifice and a fetus as part of a grand plan to resurrect himself three years later because we see that he has intent to kill. He tried to kill Skull Knight who narrowly dodged the telekinetic attack, and he’s raised his hand to attack again here, only to lower it after a close up specifically of Guts, the dude Griffith does stupid irrational shit for.

Then we close this moment with a distant shot of Femto from a high angle (used to make the subject appear weak/small/vulnerable) as a smear on the background, surrounded by monsters, perfectly evoking a feeling of isolation. This is what Griffith is left with after purposefully destroying his relationship with Guts – nothing but his own monstrousness.

This moment is followed through subtlely but consistently throughout NGriff’s narrative, in the way he’s portrayed as unknowable, distant, singular. He’s the absolute, without equal, and, in the context of Berserk’s themes, that’s just a grandiose way of saying he’s alone after sacrificing Guts.

The other of the two scenes is:

NeoGriffith has come to see Guts specifically to test whether anything can shake his heart. “It seems I am free,” he declares smugly. Then he watches Guts fight (and it’s v worth noting that his very first entranced glimpse of Guts back in chapter 12 was while observing another fight against a bigger stronger opponent, Guts throwing himself into danger then struggling his way out), and feels his heart start to stir after all.

“uhhhh that’s gotta be that fetus” thinks Griffith. Next page:

Like, everything about this says Griffith is lying to himself, at least where Guts is concerned. This is the page that inspired my url for a reason lol.

The positioning – Griffith left, fetus vs Guts right. Fetus is Griffith’s thoughts/hope, Guts is what’s right in front of him in reality.

The fact that this is the final page of the chapter, so it has a feeling of conclusiveness to it. Griffith is a champ at denial, but reality is still reality.

the “……..” “bthump,” that practically reads like a taunt.

The fact that Griffith deliberately came to face Guts to test himself, then his heart went off! Like I said at the start, there’s no way you make these dudes’ feelings the core of Berserk, have Griffith fail his own test of whether he successfully got rid of his, then say “lol it’s not really his feelings though.”

Liiiiike from a pure storytelling perspective, this scene is emotionally pointless if it ends up being the fetus after all. It may be significant to the plot eventually – I wouldn’t be surprised if it is to blame for Griffith saving Casca, even if I think that’s dumb as fuck lol – but the emotional purpose of this scene is to tease the audience.

Guts is unaware of Griffith’s heart doing anything so it’s meaningless to his emotional state and decisions.

It’s only meaningful to the audience, and only because we are invested in Griffith’s feelings after the Golden Age – we want Griffith to fail his test. “I am free” is disappointing, “my blood should have been frozen” is intriguing.
Griffith has dismissed his feelings by blaming them on the fetus, and if he’s right, then this scene is meaningless to him.

And if it turns out to be the fetus after all, it’s meaningless to us too.

Also I feel ridic doing this lol but I have such a huge backlog of posts by now that it almost seems like a waste not to link some when relevant, so for ~further reading~ lmao:

https://bthump.tumblr.com/post/165675984696/ok-the-chapter-where-neogriffiths-heart-starts

https://bthump.tumblr.com/post/174703956896/vs-of-only-10-chapters-previous-i-think-its

https://bthump.tumblr.com/post/174642925251/yk-what-this-is-what-berserk-is-about-like-if-i

hill of swords sets up the ideal climactic griffguts drama so perfectly that it’s ridic

Guts: conflicted because he desperately misses Griffith, the way he was back when all Guts wanted was for Griffith to look at him (value him, love him). He maintains his rage by separating Griffith now from Griffith then, and NeoGriffith’s existence makes it that much harder.

That same beating heart?

Griffith: has failed to completely eradicate his past self.

Like, that’s the two important emotional points this scene sets up: Guts conflicted about killing NeoGriffith because he’s reminded of human Griffith, and NeoGriffith evidencing human Griffith’s emotions.

You can’t write this without intending to pay it off by forcing Guts to square with the fact that there’s still some of his Griffith remaining in NeoGriffith. This absolutely requires a future moment where Guts and NeoGriffith confront each other and Guts realizes that NGriff is still in love with him.

Ofc this could lead to like, a final test of Guts’ obsession with Griffith which he then passes by killing him anyway or something like that. But if the narrative turns back to Guts and Griffith focused on each other rather than Guts and Griffith steadfastly focused on their goals in their mutual attempt to get over each other it could lead to some excellently hightened, resonant emotions during their final confrontation.

Plus it’s worth noting that Guts’ obsession with Griffith which he’s trying to drop is an obsession with killing him – that’s what leads him to darkness – while this conflict between Griffith now and Griffith then makes Guts forget his urge to kill. So yk, if Miura’s theoretical not super bleak ending involves Guts not succumbing to his inner darkness and urge to kill, this conflict might actually facilitate that happyish ending.

Or maybe this is irrelevant and it’s all the fetus anyway and NGriff is fully removed from human Griffith’s emotions so Guts can kill him completely sans internal conflict and then ride off into the sunset lol. Or maybe the perfectly on point emotional content is an accidental side-effect of just establishing NGriff’s plot-point weakness.

I liked your theory about casca using the behelit but it made me worry that it will be guts who uses it and he’ll sacrifice casca to do it (similar to ‘the beast’ wanting him to rape/eat/kill casca so he could be close to griffith) and therefore reduce her to just another pain source AGAIN but idk… I guess their ‘sacrifice’ status helps prevent that but then can either of them use the behelit because of that?

ty! and tbh I don’t think you don’t have to worry about that (unless Miura decides to retcon hard facts).

in addition to the count not being able to sacrifice guts because he doesn’t love guts lol, they point out

you can’t mark someone for sacrifice twice.

But yeah there’s nothing saying that someone marked for sacrifice can’t use a behelit themselves, and everyone knowledgeable about these things seems to believe that Guts potentially could use it (like Slan saying “why not make a sacrifice” in the troll cave, eg).

Though I don’t think the behelit is Guts’. Whether Miura was considering it for a while is a possibility, but since the Berserk armour made an appearance and we started getting a lot of “is it yours or are you just carrying it for someone hmmm” moments, I feel like it’s been really unlikely that Guts is ever going to use it. The armour is more his way of letting his inner darkness loose. Which has the handy effect of not being necessarily permanent, but with the ever present threat of becoming permanent. Perfect for a protagonist lol.

Also speaking of the Beast of Darkness telling Guts to assault and murder Casca so he can pursue Griffith, I think that could be another like… factor in Casca using the behelit. Right now she’s the symbol of Guts’ humanity, so if she becomes a monster it makes thematic sense for Guts to follow suit by losing himself to the armour. He could later be brought back by ~the power of friendship~ to demonstrate that despite their quest ending in tragedy and darkness, it was still worthwhile because of the character development and relationships formed along the way.

Ha! I’ve been fretting for ages about how Casca going apostle could work thematically w/ the whole interpersonal relationships as positive influences/power of love and friendship stuff of the last 200 chapters, but there, that totally fits! Then mb Casca could have her own personal narrative rather than continuing to be a symbol of Guts’ humanity.

What do you mean by ‘suggestive climax’ of Guts and Griffith? (you mentioned it in your answer to the Farnese/Guts ask). And do you really think there’s an actual chance Miura won’t go all nohomo on us in the end? Cause I’m dreading Guts settling down with Casca as an ending and that would be just so….meh story-wise. But also, Miura’s been so focused on Guts forming a new family with his new group lately and doing the weird harem thing while they were on the ship which was disturbing as fUCK

There’s always a chance. I mean I don’t think he’s going to go yes homo, but I definitely think there’s a strong possibility that Guts is gonna die single and thinking about Griffith.

I am trying to brace myself for disappointment ofc. I mean you’re right, the rpg group constantly succeeding in all they do and never having actual problems narrative has been going on for 150 chapters now so banking on the results of their quest being tragedy (ie Casca gets her mind back, proceeds to fuck shit completely up) is, yk, not a sure thing. the power of friendship could come through again and Guts and Casca could reunite happily, and if that happens I’ll finally give up on my optimism lol.

But til then I think there’s a good chance that all this awful harem vibe shit is a prelude to tragedy and disillusionment (not that that makes it better, but yk at least it would mean it ends), and the narrative is going to refocus back onto Guts and Griffith’s unconcluded story. That’s p much what I mean by suggestive climax – Guts and Griffith confronting each other at the climax of the story, emotions running high, allusions to their emotionally intimate history and the way they’re each still “the only one,” “the true light” for the other despite both trying so so hard to cut the other out lol.

Yk, finally dealing with the shit they’re avoiding by focusing on a kingdom/forcing Casca’s mind back, and cathartically reconciling the fact that they’re simultaneously fated enemies and true lights. Probably right before one or the other dies.

here have some optimistic picspam under the cut:

I really hate Schierke as a character like… her crush on guts is so yawn to me because like everyone has one at this point and it’s just causing her to be selfish and childish like wanting to keep the ability to control the armour/beast and help guts to herself rather than teach the rest of the group to help is stupid and I feel goes against everything she’s been taught about being a witch and kind of working for the world seperate from the world and also with farnese even though I like her1/2

2/2 I just feel like any kind of character development she could have
had was just quickly glazed over like she went from someone who got off
on watching people get burnt to death and wanting to torture serpico for
‘fun’ or whatever to this simpering woman who’s working on bettering
herself way too fast I wish her journey was explored more and not just
kind of put as if she met guts and suddenly all her problems were solved
and she’s just perfectly good other than a little weak and scared now

Idk I agree with most of this but I think you’re being a little harsh.

Like it’s been a while since I re-read any of the later chapters but I never really got the impression that Schierke was keeping her ability to help Guts to herself, more that she’s just… the only person in the RPG group proficient enough w/ magic to help keep the armour at bay. Like Farnese is still a beginner and no one else knows any magic, so there’s nothing they can really do. (Also I’m kind of loling at calling Schierke childish, like, she is a child.)

But otherwise I pretty much agree, there’s nothing I particularly like about Schierke and her crush is annoying and offputting.

Also wrt Farnese, describing her as “simpering” makes no sense at all. The word means coquettish in an affected, ingratiating way, and that is basically the opposite of Farnese’s character lol, both as an enemy and as an ally.

But other than that I mean yeah I do agree that her character development was not well written. I like both antagonist Farnese and ally Farnese but it’s hard to see them as the same character, because Miura really like, did not show how one became the other lol.

It might be believable that after having her religious faith shattered she’d latch onto Guts as something new to believe in, as an emotional crutch, but it’s never depicted that way really – deciding to follow Guts has been 100% positive for her, while religion was 100% negative and evil, even though they’re both presumably filling the same emotional niche for her. (And if they’re not basically the same drive pointed at different objects of belief, God vs Guts, then Farnese’s sudden switch from religion to Guts is actually super weird and nonsensical, so either way it’s not well done.)

Like, her black and white, us vs them, pure vs impure, etc, thinking should still have been an issue, at least at the start of her time with the rpg group, even if the subjects of that thinking have changed. Or if Miura wanted that type of thinking shattered with her religious faith, she should have had difficulty adjusting to seeing the world in shades of grey. Her related buried guilt and self-doubt should also not have just conveniently disappeared, aside from one vague attempt at an apology for burning witches alive to Flora lol.

(Man now that I mention it it would’ve been fantastic to see Farnese struggling with letting go of her pure vs impure thinking and more slowly accepting that everyone is greyscale, and finding self-acceptance in that too. What a missed opportunity.)

Something else that would’ve been good is showing that Farnese dedicating herself to taking care of Casca, learning magic, etc, is a continuation of her tendency to like, violently throw herself into things. “become the storm yourself,” that life philosophy. Like if she was overeager to an off-putting, borderline unhealthy extent. Or if she wholeheartedly devoted herself to taking care of Casca because of her guilt issues, but again in a not-wholly-positive, overcompensating way.

I think this is a basic problem with Guts’ entire side of the narrative actually lol. It’s too damn good. Everyone is bettered by hanging out with him, plain and simple. Not even two steps forward, one step back – everyone just happily grows as a person on his stupid journey. Farnese replacing God with Guts causes no problems for her or anyone else, because Guts is just a good person to build your entire life around, when imo there should be some critique there wrt the concept of building your life around anything or anyone. The problem isn’t what you’re worshipping, it’s that you’re worshipping, but idk if Miura sees it that way.

Tho I still have hope that this apparent sense that Guts is just the fucking bees knees who changes everyone around him for the better could be subverted. I mean we’re about to get the payoff of his whole quest, and he’s just been compared to Griffith again specifically wrt how Farnese feels about him vs how Casca felt about Griffith, which is promising. Like, Golden Age Griffith was the same wrt everyone around him growing and being happy bc of his ~conviction~ and the feeling that they’re all going places, it’s something Guts comments on when he first meets the Hawks lol, and we all know how that turned out.

But even if that is the case it doesn’t really fix the 150ish chapters of Farnese’s super quick, super positive character growth lol. Idk it’s a disappointment to me too. I still like “both” Farneses, but I really feel like Miura half-assed the hell out of her development.

anyway ty for the asks and sorry for being a bit nitpicky, i mostly agree with you, just my contrary streak kicks in if i think some crit is unfair lol.

of only 10 chapters previous

I think it’s really cool that Berserk is basically taking this theme of darkness/light, isolation/connection, and portraying it on both an interpersonal scale and a like, grandiose cosmic scale.

With Ganeshka and Griffith the darkness is the isolation of being singular, unknowable even to oneself, and the light is another being existing on the same plane as you, seeing the world the same way as you, seeing you as you truly are. This sense of cosmic understanding.

With Guts and Griffith there’s nothing objectively grandiose or cosmic about it, it’s just a relationship between two dudes that fell apart and still haunts both of them. But their connection is meaningful enough to them that existing without the other is comparable to being a solitary eldrich abomination who can barely even perceive others.

Griffith’s existence as a monster “beyond the reach of man” is basically a symbol of choosing to isolate yourself rather than surrendering to the vulnerability of loving and being loved, and that’s underscored at the climax of the Millenium Falcon arc just as he achieves his dream (both through that moment of connection up there and through Ganeshka’s backstory of paranoia feeding into isolation which is placed right before that moment).

Like for real, all this untouchable, unknowable, eldrich abomination jesus figure stuff is essentially a metaphor for Guts and Griffith breaking up.

And like, I always get a huge kick out of this concept of playing with scales when it comes to interpersonal connection. This isn’t a groundbreaking thing, this is a relatively common fantasy friendship/romance trope – yk the world only gets saved after the couple confesses their feelings, love is the key to achieving X goal, a single person can’t do the magic thing but when their friends join/support them they can do it, Spock running away from his feelings for Kirk is a parallel to a godlike machine’s inability to understand emotion, etc etc etc.

And Griffith and Guts’ moments of connection are like finding the one being you can see and understand in a world of isolation, and losing that is like becoming a monster in a sea of darkness. See also: the Black Swordsman arc and the Berserk armour for a slightly more down-to-earth fantasy metaphor.

When Guts and Casca saw Griffith in the hill of swords, everyone thinks that maybe the two of them could possibly forgive him. But I always saw it as being surprised to see a pre-eclipse Griffith before he was tortured. I think guts would get use to it and proceed in trying to kill him, next time he sees Griffith.

Huh, I’ve never rly seen that opinion tbh, maybe we hang out in different parts of fandom. Well, I’ve seen a few people expressing worry that Casca might forgive Griffith, but honestly if Miura writes that I will like, personally fly across the ocean to salt his garden. And I definitely don’t think it’s likely.

As for Guts… hm I’m just going to go all out and explain my take on Guts’ reaction to NGriff bc you gave me an opening lol.

I don’t think forgiveness for the Eclipse rape is on the table. But I definitely think his feelings towards NeoGriffith are very complex and he’s absolutely emotionally conflicted towards him, not just surprised by his appearance.

But yeah I don’t think his emotional conflict stems from wanting to forgive Griffith. What he wants is for Griffith to be or contain the version of himself that like, doesn’t require forgiving, because the only thing human Griffith did that hurt Guts was sacrifice the Band – and Guts never seemed to really blame him for that anyway.

Like when we’re talking about a dude who has undergone two (2) magical transformations and basically exists as three versions of himself, each with apparently very different internal emotional lives, it’s hard not to be conflicted about him.

Guts differentiates between human Griffith and Femto, and Guts does not hate human Griffith. We never ever not once see Guts direct an iota of rage towards Griffith as a human. Not even during the Eclipse, after he sacrificed everyone.

Very consistently, every time Guts thinks about human Griffith it’s with regret, sadness, a sense of loss. He regretfully thinks about Griffith kneeling in the snow like a million times, and never expresses anger about how Griffith sacrificed everyone and turned into an evil demon a year later. He thinks about Griffith among the dead Hawks during his run through memory lane, right after the Eclipse, and cries. Griffith is the most prominent shining light Schierke sees in his subconscious. Griffith is a part of the “campfire from those days” that still burns in his chest, and prevents him from being fully consumed by hate. etc etc.

He thinks about demonic-looking Femto when he’s feeling rage and hate, never human Griffith.

And I’m going to suggest that there are three main, related reasons that Guts feels emotional conflict in regards to NeoGriffith.

One is that it’s another change. Guts doesn’t know what exactly to expect from this third version of Griffith, who looks human again rather than demonic. He knows that he’s not “his” Griffith, because Skull Knight told him the fifth Godhand would incarnate, because he flew away from the Tower of Conviction on Zodd, and because the brand bleeds around him, but there’s a reason Guts rather desperately searches for a hint that NeoGriffith has regrets or feels remorse. Deep down he’s hoping that he’s closer to human Griffith than to Femto, basically, or that more of human Griffith is in there and reachable, or however you want to phrase it.

He lets Rickert hold him back from attacking until NeoGriffith directly says he’s free from his emotions, and then doesn’t actually try to strike until NGriff reiterates that sentiment with “I’ll not betray my dream. That is all.”

If NeoGriffith had feelings, if he felt regret, if he was no longer a malevolent demon, then Femto could be considered an anomaly that would carry sole blame for the Eclipse rape. Like, when we’re talking magical transformations that affect your mind as well as your body, the concept of blame is kind of nebulous. If NeoGriffith basically had all of human Griffith’s emotions and was horrified by his actions as Femto, and wanted to regain his relationship with Guts, then tbqh Guts would probably be able to go “oh well it wasn’t really you anyway.”

Yk, kinda like a Berserk fan who doesn’t consider Guts to be responsible for “the beast of darkness” assaulting Casca, but with the handy addition of a literal transformation. You can argue fictional moral philosophy wrt the morality of magically transforming into a monster and back again lol, but I definitely think Guts would seize the opportunity to write Femto off.

So, to split hairs, it’s less about potentially forgiving him, and more about potentially not holding him responsible. But yk, unfortunately for Guts NGriff turns out to be an apparently emotionless asshole who still won’t give him the time of day and says straight up that he regrets nothing, so that’s not an option for him.

The second reason is that, well, he looks like the dude that Guts felt such ridiculously intense feelings for that he rearranged his entire life and abandoned the people he considered his family just to feel like he was worthy of being his friend.

It’s a whole lot easier to feel rage against an aspect of someone you’re p much in love with when they look like a bona fide monster, rather than exactly like the person you love. You’ll even notice that, except in moments that emphasize the potential Guts has of following in his footsteps, Griffith’s face tends to be obscured or completely nonexistent when Guts thinks about Femto.

And the third reason is that he was already very emotionally conflicted over Femto. Femto raping Casca did not make him retroactively hate human Griffith, but his love for the man Griffith once was absolutely complicates his feelings with regards to Femto.

We see this in the way becoming a rage-fueled monster is framed as a temptation because he still wants to be his friend and equal, as per Griffith’s Promrose speech.

It’s also there in how Guts blatantly wants his attention and regard after everything.

He “threw away” Griffith’s love, so if he can’t have that then he wants Femto’s hate. He wants to be seen and acknowledged, even as a threat, so when Femto says that Guts doesn’t even register to him as an enemy, it pisses him off so much it gives him the strength to climb a flight of stairs with like half his bones broken and potentially-fatal pain in his brand, and swing his giant sword at him.

And we see it when he still thinks of him as a shining light in the darkness, despite everything.

Basically, on some emotional, irrational level, he still wants this:

Like, to reiterate, imo Guts’ emotional conflict isn’t about whether he can forgive Femto/NeoGriffith. It’s about the fact that Femto and NeoGriffith are both aspects of a dude that Guts had incredibly intense feelings for. They are distinct from Griffith but also inseparable from him, and that’s really, really hard to reconcile emotionally.

Hence, eg, a bunch of this maudlin shit:

Idk basically no I don’t think Guts is going to forgive NeoGriffith, but I do think that he is still very conflicted about him. He wants to want to kill him lol, but just as much, he wants to be seen by him, he wants his attention, he wants his love, he wants to be his equal, and he also wants to completely move on and just forget all his painfully fucked up and conflicting feelings towards him.

And I guess time will tell whether he achieves any of that.

This is about Falconia, bodies and lives being bought and sold, the natural order of the world, etc.

tw for csa (no graphic panels but still disturbing enough for a cut imo)

The Conviction Arc shows us in broadstrokes the world humanity’s collective unconscious wants to overturn through starving crowds, dungeons filled with tortured ‘heretics,’ rampant plague and the desire for a saviour, and nobles terrorizing peasants using god as an excuse, but this is the up close and personal version. Lives and bodies as commodities, weak trampled by the strong, poor ruled by the rich, and everyone accepting it as the way things are.

Our three main protagonists during the Golden Age all have very personal formative trauma that revolves around being bought and sold as a matter of course.

And Griffith’s dream, as someone wracked with guilt for lives lost in his battles, someone who has sold himself to a rich and powerful predator to save some of those lives, is to overturn this natural order of things.

And he does. Falconia is a place where children aren’t sold as sex slaves, where the powerful do not oppress the weak, where the rich don’t exploit the poor, where everyone is treated equally and with dignity, where Guts, Griffith, and Casca could’ve all had happy childhoods.

One of the important aspects of this theme re: societal power dynamics and exploitation is that these evil actions
are excused away. This is true of like, just about every abuser of power and
rapist in Berserk. Some think it’s okay because someone more powerful than
them told them they’re allowed (torturer, Wyald/probably the rest of
the apostles, Mozgus’ torturers, Mozgus and the inquisition in general
passing the buck onto God, Donovan because Gambino allowed it, etc),
some think it’s okay because that’s just the way things are (Donovan
again, Adon, Rosine’s got some of this, etc), some think it’s okay because
they’re powerful enough to do anything they want (implied with Gennon,
Ganeshka,

the Godhand, a lot of apostles, Casca’s attempted rapist nobleman), and finally some think it’s okay because the world wronged them (Gambino, apostles like Rosine again and Eggman, Jill’s dad, the baby eating heretics lmao, one could argue the King, Mozgus’ torturers again, etc).

Again, it all comes back to the “reason of the world,” the natural order of things that NeoGriff overturns. In the ordinary world these people with power can do whatever they want and justify it to themselves. In NeoGriffith’s world, they don’t. Apostles, our prime example of powerful preying on weak because they’re allowed to, no longer prey on humans, simply because of NeoGriffith’s existence.

It seems safe to assume nobles no longer exploit people either, if nobility is even still a thing in Falconia. Like granted, I’m taking some of this as read based on what we’re told Falconia is, but I feel like the apostles (and the explicit focus on equality) are a good representative example of the point of Falconia, which is to essentially fix everything we see wrong with the world in the Conviction arc and, like I laid out above, in our protagonists’ lives.

The fact is that Falconia isn’t just a utopia on a distant macro level, where the readers can look at it and go, hm seems nice I guess but w/e. On a micro level it’s a place where these horrible things that happened to the characters we personally love and care about wouldn’t’ve happened. I, at least, am emotionally invested in that utopia because of this, yk?

But here’s where I get critical of the portrayal:

Femto and the Eclipse rape is the epitome of the harmful power structure. Like, Femto hits every branch on his way down this tree lol. During his transformation he met God, God absolved him of his guilt and responsibility by telling him he can do whatever the fuck he wants and it’ll be the right thing. He’s taking the place of the nobleman he saved Casca from and exemplifying existing power structures of strong preying on weak, and it’s petty revenge.

One can easily argue that the Eclipse rape is a distillation of every abusive power structure in Berserk.

So okay, you have Falconia, a utopia that exists to eschew these power structures and create a place of equality where no one is exploited, created by a dude whose defining act is the epitome of these abusive power structures.

And frankly it’s fucking pointless. This feels like the shallowest of shallow hot takes lol. Like, oooh what if this wonderful place where all the horrible things that traumatized our favourite characters are no longer an accepted given was created by an evil demon rapist???

Like… okay? And then what? The Eclipse rape has nothing to do with the social structure of Falconia, NGriff seems to have completely delivered on his/humanity’s dream regardless, he is now the higher power making the calls and he hasn’t told everyone to do whatever they want no matter who it hurts. From what we’ve seen he’s done the exact opposite, existing as a tempering influence on the apostles who no longer prey on those weaker than them, ending the Holy See’s reign of terror, ending wars in general, and uniting people in their differences.

So it’s just like, an arbitrary evil act which creates an artificial sense of moral greyness. It has no deep meaning. I mean I suppose Miura could address it in the future – I’ve mentioned that I think it could theoretically be really interesting for Casca to visit Falconia and see the dream she devoted her life to having come to fruition because of her rapist. But even so, that doesn’t have any like… deeper intrigue. That’s interesting for Casca’s character, not as an examination of moral relativity or w/e.

Similarly, if NeoGriffith turns out to be more human than he looks he could reflect on this contradiction in a potentially interesting way.

But I can’t think of a way to make it an interesting examination of morality. It’s boring at its core imo. I mean you could argue that it’s still worthwhile on that personal character level, but let’s be real here – no amount of potentially interesting character stuff in Casca’s future is worth removing her from the story for 20 years, and anything w/ NeoGriffith would be a retread of human Griffith’s guilt issues and frankly I don’t see it happening anyway lol.

So yeah ultimately this whole egalitarian utopia created by a rapist demon thing just does not work for me at all. There’s no reason the creator of this paradise /had/ to be a symbol of this abusive power structure it exists to destroy, again, that’s just an arbitrary happenstance, not a pre-requisite to utopia building, so it doesn’t say anything about the nature of Falconia. It doesn’t say anything about utopias in general, it doesn’t say anything about those power structures that we don’t already know (ie they bad, equality good).

It’s like, fake deep tbqh.

The actual interesting and morally grey aspect of Falconia is the way world peace was achieved by setting a bunch of fantasy monsters loose on humanity, and that has nothing to do with the Eclipse rape. Like, that’s literally all you need for the moral complexity. We have world peace and a growing utopia that everyone is welcome to join, but the price is monsters everywhere, and this could not have happened without those monsters to unite humanity in fear. Is the world better or worse than it used to be?

And NGriff being a rapist, or his demon alter ego being a rapist, or whatever the deal is there, adds nothing to that question, rather, it distracts from it and devalues the actual moral ambiguity.

In fact, it makes me wonder whether Miura regrets going with rape as his way of demonstrating Femto’s evil. Because it’s been such a non-issue to the whole theme of power structures, utopias, equality, etc, that it feels like Miura is sweeping it under the rug lol – it’s less of an attempt at dark irony and more the elephant in the room. I can’t even say with confidence that Femto was intended to be a symbol of exploitative power structures, despite how obvious it seems, because it just… hasn’t impacted the themes of the story at all.

madchen
replied to your post “i wonder what it’s like to read neogriffith’s narrative thru the lens…”

these people just think that everything griffith is doing is all part of some evil master plan to end the world or ruin humanity or whatever even though hes never had any motivation of incentive to do such
that being said, it
definitely puts more of a stake in how they view guts fight lol? even if
they are ignoring literally everything else the story has told us and
rational common sense that a sudden reveal in the plot that griffith is
actually Evil (like. evil in the big bad villain way) would be
satisfying.

you mean wouldn’t be satisfying, right? bc yeah v true lol

it wouldn’t even be a reveal (we all saw the eclipse), it would just be a bizarre, tonally fucked up back and forth… weird thing. well, moreso than griffith’s narrative already is lol

like we get moments like this during the millenium falcon arc:

it’s just not framed as a tense bad vibey moment w/ an evil dude manipulating a bunch of poor innocent people so he can get a kingdom, it’s framed as ‘lol fuck you noble assholes, griffith’s back and this time he’s getting his utopia, high five’

like do other people basically read a scene like this with sinister horror movie music playing in the background?

i mean i completely get if (general) you can’t ignore the eclipse rape in your perception of the story, but i feel like if you can’t do that, then your berserk is fundamentally at odds with miura’s berserk, since he has diligently ignored it throughout the entirety of neogriffith’s narrative, without a single fuck given for the kind of awkward tonal pall it casts over everything.

i wonder what it’s like to read neogriffith’s narrative thru the lens of guts = good griffith = evil

bc one notable thing about how miura has been writing griffith’s side of the story since he was resurrected is that ngriff is treated as the protagonist – a distant, unemotional protagonist to be sure, we’re never in his head or anything, but still a protagonist

like that’s how the story is structured and beated. griffith’s allies are all interesting and sympathetic and three dimensional; griffith’s triumphs are treated as such, his enemy gets a chapter of sympathetic backstory but is undoubtedly the antagonist. griffith striding in and intimidating ganeshka into turning his army away is good, ganeshka leveling up and becoming an eldrich horror is bad, the human soldiers going “oh shit the war demons are all monsters what the fuck” is a tense moment and sonia telling them to stfu and just get along relieves that tension, etc.

like it’s no coincidence that we see flora’s assassination as part of guts’ side of the story, because it’s a darker moment and seeing it thru guts’ eyes allows miura to depict it as such. if we saw it thru griffith’s narrative it would’ve looked more akin to griffith and guts assassinating the queen back in the golden age.

and also it makes the second time their narratives intersect, on the docks when guts and zodd team up to fight ganeshka, very… interesting as a contrast to the fight outside flora’s house. enemies to reluctant allies.

anyway yeah basically i feel like ngriff’s millenium falcon narrative would read like, in a very bizarre way if you’re not going along with treating him as a protagonist during it. like, tonally it would be nonsensical and probably very frustrating.

chaoticgaygriffith:

bthump:

chaoticgaygriffith:

bthump:

1. This is another one of my favourite expresions in Berserk tbh

2. I’m not saying this is deliberate, I’m not sure it would even be in character, but I can’t help but imagine this as Guts taunting Femto/Griffith about the fact that he was in love with him, his life was destroyed because of him, Guts drove him to make the sacrifice by leaving him, and Guts knows it.

Like yeah logically it’s just Guts being pissed off over the fact that Griffith sacrificed him to become a demon, especially with the follow up “thanks to me who’s fighting an army of the dead because of you,” but man, I’m js that knowing how the Golden Age goes gives this line potential Layers. You’re where you are now because this petty existence had all that power over you.

On the other hand this whole scene exists to set up Griffith making the sacrifice to bury his fragile heart bc of whatever went down w/ Guts, so like, it could be that deep?

Plus Femto’s response:

Just gonna reiterate that you mean absolutely nothing to me.

Whether that’s what Guts meant to say or not, I’m pretty sure he’s well aware of the irony of Femto emphasising his insignificance now, considering everything that went down between them. He might even stubbornly refuse to go back to post-Speech-to-Charlotte Guts, clinging to the fact that, no, I meant something to you and you meant something to me, and we both know that.

But then he would also have to know that it’s his fault that Griffith went this far. Which we know that he does, but idk, whenever I re-read the manga I feel like we should get to see more guilt from him.

Anyway, I don’t think Miura was fully taking all this into consideration while writing these first few chapters, but in retrospect you have to think about all the layers of meaning behind nearly every word Femto & Guts exchange. Like, this is off topic, but it’s in these chapters that Guts first finds out what sacrificing someone really means, and he doesn’t really react in any significant way, when realistically he should.

To be fair he’s unconscious when the Godhand actually explain the sacrifice and tell the Count that a sacrifice has to be someone you love so much it’s like they’re part of you. Which imo is kind of a hmmmm in and of itself, like there’s no reason Guts had to be unconscious at any point at all since he could barely move anyway, except to miss the explanation of who can be sacrificed. When he does wake up he just lies there and listens to the Count’s backstory before finally telling Puck to heal him. So I feel like it kind of suggests that Guts knowing that info might affect some things.

But otherwise yeah ia. I’m actually kind of rly into the idea of Guts stubbornly clinging to the knowledge that he was important to Griffith, hard earned as it was, now that you mention that. At least between the Eclipse and Griffith’s rebirth.

It’s like… idk I think there’s an argument that he left the Hawks because he knew he did mean something to Griffith, and that gave him the confidence to believe he could truly become his bff4ever if he changed his whole life lol. Whereas if he thought Griffith genuinely couldn’t give a shit about him he wouldn’t even try.

And then I think a similar way of thinking could be informing his behaviour during the Black Swordsman stuff. Like, I know I meant something to you, deny it all you want, I’m going to find you and force you to acknowledge me.

But after NGriff ditches him I think he kind of gives that up? Which is why he’s able to put his revenge thing on hold – it starts to feel futile when he genuinely believes NGriff feels nothing at all towards him. (Which is why that beating heart is a game changer in waiting js.)

idk lol I’m just thinking outloud.

And yeah like, it’s textual that he feels guilty for Griffith’s breakdown, from letting Casca stab him to:

But I do wish we saw more of that post-Eclipse other than the recurring moments when he thinks about Griffith kneeling in the snow and mopes lol. It kind of makes sense to me that we don’t see Guts feeling guilty after the Eclipse because I feel like the point of the Eclipse rape was to piss Guts off enough that he’d basically channel his guilt into rage, but I feel like we should still see more inner conflict. Not that we don’t see any, but yk, I always want more.

Ohhh, man, I remembered he got knocked out but I thought we didn’t get to see the exact moment when he came to … so I thought, you know, we don’t know exactly how much he’s heard?

But I went to check and this is him twitching awake after all the juicy details have been laid out:

Which is honestly even better than him hearing all that and not reacting.

He does get to hear these parts though:

I honestly like to interpret his expression here as loathing directed specifically @ the God Hand sans Griffith/Femto, for waltzing in and ruining everything lol.

And I agree with everything else you brought up! Like, Guts can actually be pretty confident and even cocky, so it’s not like he’s constantly putting himself down. He’s just a little naive, bless his heart.

I can’t WAIT for Neo-Griff to finally snap lol

It’s gotta happen. Even if Guts’ storyline is wall-to-wall disappointment I know in my soul NGriff’s is going somewhere good.

And yeah I’m sure the parallels aren’t lost on Guts lol, but i guess it’s not quite as direct as essentially saying ‘being able to sacrifice someone is proof that you love them.’ Also yeah I’m into that interpretation of his anger there, like imo he hates Femto on a personal level for being an evil version of the dude he loves, but he def hates the rest of the Godhand for facilitating it. His reaction when seeing Slan in the troll cave was even more overwhelmingly rage-y than when he saw NGriff on the Hill of Swords, eg.

real talk i’ll accept guts’ narrative as being about successfully getting over griffith and moving on and eventually getting a happy griffith-free ending if and only if guts/serpico goes canon

and not just because the idea of guts moving on from his homoerotic obsession with a dude thru a hetero relationship kills me, but also because it just makes the most sense ~thematically~ lol

this moment was built up since like 40 chapters earlier when Skull Knight warned Guts that he’d have to make a choice not to pursue Griffith. Frankly I think it’s nearly comedic how hard the narrative railroaded Guts into making this choice, ie by showing that Guts choosing Griffith over getting on a boat would’ve been effectively suicide lol, and even then he still needed someone to remind him not to be an idiot – but the fact remains that this significant step on the road to moving on from Griffith was enabled by Serpico leaping in to save Guts from Zodd, a situation with a pretty significant precedent we all remember and love.

and like tbqh it’s criminal that guts and serpico’s interactions when they’re not trying to kill each other are almost always super bland bc out of the current group serpico has the greatest potential to have an interesting and intense relationship with guts imho and like, idk miura kind of tells us this a few times but never shows it.

dendromancer
replied to your post “i mean i guess it’s always been the same question: is this the prelude…”

i think if the latter is the case then perhaps there will be a more light-hearted ending but… my preferences aside, from BS arc this manga’s theme is the quest for revenge, fighting against all odds etc. so i think that if this scenario occured then the manga will have kind of deviated..? not that it couldn’t be (objectively) a development, but still the ending would be all over the place instead of tackling the core elements, ie their relationship

yeah I totally agree. While I think you could argue that Guts forming strong relationships as a way of moving on from traumatic shit is in keeping with earlier themes, applying that to moving on from Griffith completely ignores the complexities of Guts and Griffith’s relationship, which is straight up what Berserk is about. Like yeah I’m super biased but I still think it would objectively be more narratively fulfilling to see their mutual obsession take centre stage again – it’s the difference between their intense relationship getting a proper climax and emotional catharsis versus being reduced to basically a bad break up that one dude couldn’t move on from.

It’s also a deviation in another way that I was considering tacking onto that post but didn’t, but now I want to talk about it.

But like imo if it is the case that Berserk is about Guts overcoming his obsession and moving on, then functionally Berserk is basically two different kinds of stories.

Everything from chapter one to chapter 129 is the story of a kind of fucked up dude with a lot of issues muddling his way through a very dark grey narrative and trying to do his best.

Everything from chapter 130 on is the story of a dude consistently Making The Right Choice.

Like, I kind of feel that those two stories are incompatible. In a narrative about a dude struggling with himself and trying and usually failing to make the right choices in a complex world where right and wrong barely even exist, which tbh is My Berserk, then it simply doesn’t work for the main character to then make the correct choice, ie focusing on Casca, and stick to it for two hundred and twenty chapters plus afterwards. If he eventually does make a genuinely good and correct and narratively rewarded choice, that should only happen at the end and it should be cathartic.

There are stories about protagonists doing the right thing the whole time even though it’s a struggle at times, and those can be fine stories, but it’s a giant downgrade from a story about a dude making a bunch of mistakes in a morally grey world, and an absolutely enormous tonal and thematic shift. It just doesn’t work as a complete story to me if that’s the case.

kissing-monsters:

bthump:

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Browsing through the rebirth chapters and it just leaps out at me how utterly sexualized Griffith is, especially in comparison to Casca, who is (at least by Miura’s standards) totally desexualized.

Guts’ internal conflict is essentially desire vs responsibility, ie revenge vs escorting Casca to Elfhelm, ie Griffith vs Casca, and the visual depiction of that conflict is straight up, extremely loud and clear, naked sexy Griffith vs Casca all childlike in a shapeless cloak

Keep reading

yk what I was partly wrong here and over simplifying things

it’s not that Guts’ desire for revenge is sexualized through Griffith, it’s that Griffith’s sexualization is actually at odds with Guts’ desire to kill him. You can’t rly ignore “the instant I saw him… I’d forgotten my urge to kill.”

Revenge and sexual desire aren’t rly equated yet. Guts wants to kill faceless masked bird boy with great prejudice

he does not want to kill sexy naked Griffith.

Now that he’s actually reachable I’m having second thoughts oh no what the fuck.

So when the hound says he’s longing for Griffith and tells him to give him a heap of raw iron, what’s actually going on is less sexualization of revenge, and more… revengalization of sex, yk?

Sexual desire and violent stabby revenge are being equated by the hound to encourage Guts to pursue Griffith. Guts wants to stick something in him all right, and he should still want revenge, so it’s best if that something is a literal sword. As opposed to his desire for revenge becoming sexualized, the inherent sexualization of Guts’ desire for Griffith is what the hound seizes on and twists to lead Guts back to revenge.

Anyway basically Griffith’s desirability is still hardcore contrasted to Casca’s lack thereof, but honestly I think it’s less a metaphor for wanting revenge vs being stuck babysitting and more plain old straightforward gay subtext which is then utilized to give an added layer of complexity to Guts’ desire for revenge (and desire to desire revenge.)

ik this comes across as fake jokey analysis and/or giving the subtext too much weight so I can reach super hard, but tbh idk how to read this part without it. i mean you could just say that Guts fantasizing about Griffith’s pretty hair and ass and forgetting his urge to kill and whining about being stuck with Casca and Griffith abandoning him and the hound’s many innuendos are all unrelated or accidental but

l
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I’d actually love to see a dead serious analysis of this like you’ve done but deliberately disregarding any gay subtext just to see if it could make anywhere near as much compelling sense? I don’t think there’s a way this makes sense without at least some gay subtext– nor does basically the majority of berserk in general, which makes me curious but also scared to branch outside of tumblr for people’s meta on it.

tbh i’m kind of curious too lol. i’ve seen bits and pieces of non gay meta/opinions/etc on brief forays onto reddit and skull knight etc but nothing involving Guts and Griffith’s characters/relationship that I didn’t immediately think of counterpoints to.

and like for a thought experiment i tried wracking my brain to come up with a heterosexual explanation for one of the most homoerotic moments

and the best I got is that Guts is picturing NeoGriffith like that to serve as a strong contrast to Femto, yk all naked with flowing hair as opposed to the exoskeleton + helmet look.

and it still doesn’t explain why an image meant to convey a sense of humanity is the most sensual image of a person we’ve seen in 176 chapters of Berserk give or take actual sex scenes, and that’s including Griffith’s resurrection (in which he’s described as “the desired”) a few chapters earlier.

like idk at the end of the day I think Berserk does mostly make sense if you assume Guts and Griffith’s feelings for each other are 110% platonic, at least the plot does, but i def think the homoeroticsm adds more depth and richness, plus it’s a simple cohesive explanation for a lot of stuff that is otherwise pointless or weird, from Casca’s jealousy to a bunch of images of Griffith to their intensity-at-first-sight vibe to why Griffith didn’t answer when Guts asked if he was gay, etc etc, and it’s disingenuous to ignore it imo.

bthump:

Browsing through the rebirth chapters and it just leaps out at me how utterly sexualized Griffith is, especially in comparison to Casca, who is (at least by Miura’s standards) totally desexualized.

Guts’ internal conflict is essentially desire vs responsibility, ie revenge vs escorting Casca to Elfhelm, ie Griffith vs Casca, and the visual depiction of that conflict is straight up, extremely loud and clear, naked sexy Griffith vs Casca all childlike in a shapeless cloak

Keep reading

yk what I was partly wrong here and over simplifying things

it’s not that Guts’ desire for revenge is sexualized through Griffith, it’s that Griffith’s sexualization is actually at odds with Guts’ desire to kill him. You can’t rly ignore “the instant I saw him… I’d forgotten my urge to kill.”

Revenge and sexual desire aren’t rly equated yet. Guts wants to kill faceless masked bird boy with great prejudice

he does not want to kill sexy naked Griffith.

Now that he’s actually reachable I’m having second thoughts oh no what the fuck.

So when the hound says he’s longing for Griffith and tells him to give him a heap of raw iron, what’s actually going on is less sexualization of revenge, and more… revengalization of sex, yk?

Sexual desire and violent stabby revenge are being equated by the hound to encourage Guts to pursue Griffith. Guts wants to stick something in him all right, and he should still want revenge, so it’s best if that something is a literal sword. As opposed to his desire for revenge becoming sexualized, the inherent sexualization of Guts’ desire for Griffith is what the hound seizes on and twists to lead Guts back to revenge.

Anyway basically Griffith’s desirability is still hardcore contrasted to Casca’s lack thereof, but honestly I think it’s less a metaphor for wanting revenge vs being stuck babysitting and more plain old straightforward gay subtext which is then utilized to give an added layer of complexity to Guts’ desire for revenge (and desire to desire revenge.)

ik this comes across as fake jokey analysis and/or giving the subtext too much weight so I can reach super hard, but tbh idk how to read this part without it. i mean you could just say that Guts fantasizing about Griffith’s pretty hair and ass and forgetting his urge to kill and whining about being stuck with Casca and Griffith abandoning him and the hound’s many innuendos are all unrelated or accidental but

l
b
r

Browsing through the rebirth chapters and it just leaps out at me how utterly sexualized Griffith is, especially in comparison to Casca, who is (at least by Miura’s standards) totally desexualized.

Guts’ internal conflict is essentially desire vs responsibility, ie revenge vs escorting Casca to Elfhelm, ie Griffith vs Casca, and the visual depiction of that conflict is straight up, extremely loud and clear, naked sexy Griffith vs Casca all childlike in a shapeless cloak

Like to a rather extreme degree Guts is seeing Casca as someone who needs to be taken care of, at this point, and fairly reluctantly at that. She is a responsibility, not a reward.

Contrast that to Griffith. Guts sees Griffith as an object of desire. From his sexy rebirth to Guts thinking about how he wants to pursue him to stick a sword in him to pleading for acknowledgement, Griffith is the individual Guts wants. Casca is who he kind of ends up stuck with.

And let’s return to the best page of the manga to really illustrate this dichotemy between the way Guts views Griffith and Casca right now:

Casca is a child here, directly mirroring Erika, and Griffith is absurdly beautiful and desireable.

We can also compare sexy naked Griffith above to:

Which comes right after Guts accidentally sees her tit and averts his eyes.

“he/you used to be” – Guts imagines Casca in full armour leading a charge, and imagines Griffith Like That.

Casca reminds Guts of all those days with the Hawks, Griffith reminds Guts of Griffith.

When Casca is sexualized, that sexualization manifests as a desire to
rape and kill her to be closer to and then pursue Griffith. It’s both
depicted as a very bad thing and as his desire for Griffith fighting
back, essentially. (”She’s a sacrifice so you can continue longing for
Griffith.” “If you just do this you’ll get closer and closer to
Griffith.”)

When Guts is being responsible, he’s thinking of Casca as a charge, a child-like person he has to take care of, while Guts’ temptation to pursue Griffith is sexualized, both through Casca and directly with how Griffith is depicted.

[Insert Ganeshka’s backstory of isolation and fear here.]

eh? eh?

ok honestly I’m just throwing shit at the wall but Ganeshka’s lonely freakout really really intrigues me, that plus the talk of light and dark reminds me both of Griffith in the torture chamber and Griffith as he’s transforming into Femto, and while yeah NeoGriff’s “within darkness that true light is discovered” bit is much more metaphysical (yk more to do with the fact that Griffith had to become Femto to become the saviour of humanity, probably), the fact that it’s in response to Ganeshka’s total loss of himself and everyone around him, the fact that the light Ganeshka longs for has shifted from something he considers his enemy to the only connection he has in an unknowable lonely world just… resonates man. I love it.

“You can see. Because he who bears the light exists in the deepest shadow.” Ganeshka can see NeoGriffith’s true form because he’s the only one on the same plane of existence of him, and that plane is defined by despair – despair opens the behelit that makes him an apostle, despair in the face of an inevitable loss sends him into that reincarnation thing to become a god, and his brief existence as a god is defined by existential terror and isolation. In a way he and NeoGriff are both made out of the same stuff the Idea of Evil is made out of. that’s the “darkness” imo.

And despair is the darkness of the torture chamber (give or take the lightning blazing within him that is Guts) and it’s what Griffith succumbs to when he sinks into darkness and becomes Femto.

Also

while the “light” referred to might more literally be Griffith-as-godly-saviour, bringer of peace to humanity or whatever, I’m thinking it works as a symbol of that longing for connection.

like idk the way I take Berserk’s use of light and darkness as symbols is, essentially, darkness is the despair that opens the behelit and light is what you sacrifice. darkness – the swirling negative emotions that make up the idea of evil. light – connection, love, joy, family, peace, brotherhood yadda yadda yadda. or at least the potential for those things.

Griffith/Femto appears right after Ganeshka’s backstory of being unable to connect with anyone around him because of his paranoia – loneliness and fear. He gives Ganeshka that brief sense of connection before his death as the light envelops him.

I’m basically just thinking outloud in a disorganized way here bc tbqh I have such a hard time sussing out what “It’s within darkness that true light is discovered” means in the overall context of Berserk. Like, other than Griffith going ‘lol I’m evil but also saving the world.’ that’s too reductive. But I think longing (darkness) for connection (light) maybe works for me? thanks to Ganeshka’s whole thing being isolation.

mastermistressofdesire:

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gamerweeb:

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Forgot to mention this when it comes to Griffith + Casca parallels (Guts leaves for a year/two years to pursue a dumb dream, abandoning someone who needs him, then he comes back, realizes he may have fucked up, and rescues them):

Im glad im not alone on this. Its so weird that casca was guts’s last chance to make the right choice but he still messed up in some way.

Ooh yk when you put it like that, what I find striking is that he did make the right choice, pre-Eclipse. He realized he shouldn’t’ve left and decided to stay with Griffith despite getting told multiple times to leave by Casca and Judeau.

It was Casca telling him to leave that fucked Griffith up lol, not Guts wanting to leave or being reluctant to stay.

Whereas with Casca he makes the same mistake again, and directly compares leaving Casca alone in a cave to leaving Griffith, but when he gets Casca back he’s his own worst enemy when it comes to sticking to his resolution to stay with her.

First he plans to leave her in the cave again anyway

and when it caves in he knows he’s not just gonna abandon her in a field somewhere but he’s reluctant af to postpone his revenge quest for her

and then when he decides taking her to Elfhelm is the thing to do he does it still fully intending to return to his revenge quest eventually. (Plus, yk, the fucked up Beast of Darkness shit that happens before he gathers some extra babysitters.)

I don’t really have a point other than Guts taking one step forward with Griffith and ending up like five steps back when the situation is repeated with Casca.

And I mean yeah a lot of shit went down in the interim and he has a pretty good reason to be obsessed with revenge, but the comparison between leaving Griffith and leaving Casca is made over and over by both Guts and the narrative so when you sit down and actually compare them it’s striking that Guts is still like, struggling to rise to the level of caring about someone over his “dream” (fighting stronger and stronger enemies/vengeful rampage) that he’d already reached once with Griffith right before the Eclipse.

I just noticed the parallel with Guts putting his cloak around both of them.

It’s so … quaint.

Also you’re absolutely right. While he sort of makes the decision to stay in both cases. In Griffith’s case it was a final decision he came to after going over his ‘this is where I belong after all’ and consciously admitting to himself that his dream side quest was stupid and unnecessary anyway. And he sticks by that realisation even after Judeau and Casca’s speeches. Casca telling him to leave wasn’t significant because it made Guts’ reconsider his decision, if I remember correctly we aren’t even shown Guts’ face in that panel- it’s significant for Griffith to hear and believe .

If anything Guts had already made the subconscious decision to stay waay before the raiders ran to him.

In the tent/wagon with Griffith he talks about the future once Griffith heals. “ We’ll be able to see that soon enough” he says we.WE.

Whereas with Casca his decision to stay always seems to be in lieu of there either being no other choice or in response to someone else’s prodding. Staying with Casca seems to be a means to an end where he can leave her in a safe and wholesome place and state and move on with a clear mind.

The only time there seems to be a real resolve behind his decision to stay is when he’s directly substituting the situation with already having failed at it with Griffith.

Even his “even if you put something back together piece by piece it may never be the same.” Dialogue ties in with this. He says this after his Griffith fueled Casca endeavor has sort of failed.

And yeah.

After Casca tells him “if you’re Griffith’s friend and equal… you have to. Even if it’s alone… you have to go” we get the “why do I always see these things… after they’re done and gone?” line. It seems p clear to me that that Guts is referring to his realization that he had his “dream” in the palm of his hand and threw it away by leaving to pursue it, ie he broke Griffith’s heart by leaving, though granted it’s not the plainest of statements.

But anyway yeah to me that sounds like Guts is absolutely unwavering in his resolve that he’s going to stay and he thinks leaving in the first place was a great big fuck up.

tbh I do wonder what Guts is thinking will happen when Casca gets her mind back, considering his brooding about the warnings he got. “She went to pieces because she can’t fully cope with it. What will she do if she does get her sanity back?” Like is he hoping she’ll join the trail of revenge with him? Is he planning to just play it by ear – take her with him if she wants to go, leave her in elfhelm if she wants to chill somewhere safe, etc? Cross his fingers and hope she doesn’t do something drastic?

I was kind of wondering if he’s hoping that getting her back the way she was will be enough motivation for him to take Godo’s advice and stay with the “irreplaceable things” instead of going back for revenge, but like I said, even on the ship he was still doing his “when this journey’s over, I’ll [not actually be able to finish this sentence]” thing, so I don’t think there’s much indication of that.

idk i’m just thinking outloud. it all comes back to griffith’s pull being like, the strongest force exerted on him lol, for both good and bad. devote himself to griffith, or leave to become griffith’s equal, or stay with griffith, or ditch casca to chase griffith, or stay with casca while comparing the situation to one with griffith, gritting his teeth, and anticipating being able to chase griffith again.

i wonder if it’s not so much that he’ll overcome the pull of griffith on him as the nature of it will shift again, from revenge to maybe realizing that his desire isn’t actually for revenge, but still to be griffith’s equal. maybe he’ll actually untangle some of his feelings at some point, considering things like “the instant I saw him… I forgot my urge to kill.”

gamerweeb:

bthump:

Forgot to mention this when it comes to Griffith + Casca parallels (Guts leaves for a year/two years to pursue a dumb dream, abandoning someone who needs him, then he comes back, realizes he may have fucked up, and rescues them):

Im glad im not alone on this. Its so weird that casca was guts’s last chance to make the right choice but he still messed up in some way.

Ooh yk when you put it like that, what I find striking is that he did make the right choice, pre-Eclipse. He realized he shouldn’t’ve left and decided to stay with Griffith despite getting told multiple times to leave by Casca and Judeau.

It was Casca telling him to leave that fucked Griffith up lol, not Guts wanting to leave or being reluctant to stay.

Whereas with Casca he makes the same mistake again, and directly compares leaving Casca alone in a cave to leaving Griffith, but when he gets Casca back he’s his own worst enemy when it comes to sticking to his resolution to stay with her.

First he plans to leave her in the cave again anyway

and when it caves in he knows he’s not just gonna abandon her in a field somewhere but he’s reluctant af to postpone his revenge quest for her

and then when he decides taking her to Elfhelm is the thing to do he does it still fully intending to return to his revenge quest eventually. (Plus, yk, the fucked up Beast of Darkness shit that happens before he gathers some extra babysitters.)

I don’t really have a point other than Guts taking one step forward with Griffith and ending up like five steps back when the situation is repeated with Casca.

And I mean yeah a lot of shit went down in the interim and he has a pretty good reason to be obsessed with revenge, but the comparison between leaving Griffith and leaving Casca is made over and over by both Guts and the narrative so when you sit down and actually compare them it’s striking that Guts is still like, struggling to rise to the level of caring about someone over his “dream” (fighting stronger and stronger enemies/vengeful rampage) that he’d already reached once with Griffith right before the Eclipse.

mastermistressofdesire:

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Also related to that last ask but my response was getting way too long so I’ll mention this separately:

I feel like part of my problem with the current lighter tone is that a lot of the darkness, specifically the emotional angst, of Berserk so far was based on the fact that all the main characters are traumatized and have shitty coping mechanisms. Guts Casca and Griffith sure, and also Farnese and Serpico (neglected throughout childhood and coped by burning people alive and terrorizing ppl, and abused by peers and Farnese + weird expectations from his mother and coped by becoming an unfeeling doormat). And none of them have really dealt with it?

Griff transformed into a monster so fine his story has a conclusion, and Casca’s is maybe coming to fruition soon, but Guts’ trauma just transferred from rape and abuse to feeling manpain about Casca’s trauma, which is a huge disservice to both characters if it’s never brought up again and dealt with.

And while Farnese is bettering herself we’ve never really seen her actual issues addressed, and her whole sadism burning ppl alive thing just kind of easily melted away in favour of a new helping someone philosophy. I wished for more internal conflict there, basically, and I hope it’s addressed in the future but for now it seems like a pretty abrupt change and a missed opportunity. And Serpico is still Serpico. He hasn’t changed a whole lot but his issues haven’t negatively impacted anything either.

In the Golden Age all the psychological baggage these characters had contributed to its absolute disaster of a climax. And I’d love, love to see that happen again, esp with Farnese and Serpico adding more shit to the pile, or I’d love to see their issues flare up but have them manage to overcome them now that they’ve grown in a happier, healthier contrast to the Golden Age.

But throughout the Millenium Empire arc all these issues the characters have never really affected them adversely. I’m hoping that now that we’re delving into Casca’s psyche things will start to snowball and we’ll see that these traumas haven’t just been forgotten but only put on hold for a while so this group can be happy and hopeful.

But for now I do miss reading about fucked up characters and the internal and external challenges posed by their issues.

The weird part is actually, that sometimes I think, objectively, the manga hasn’t become lighter since the Golden age. The Lost Children and Tower of Conviction arc were pretty fucked up and even now we’ve had troll rapes, the daka demons ripping out uterus es, people being eaten alive, a lot of really weird ass and perverted monstrosities.

But it’s simply that the fucked up Ness isn’t viscerally gripping anymore.

In the Golden age we we’re first introduced to characters, made to care about them by slowly revealing both their strengths and flaws and slowly, insidiously piling on the foreshadowing and layers of emotional as well as external fuckery.

It felt so dark because we cared about the people it was happening to.

In recent chapters the characters are introduced along with the ‘darkness’ bringing it forward as a part of their plotlines. Even Farnese was introduced as a sadistic pyromaniac first .
Along with the horror which was the heretic related prosecution.

And only much later were we given a glimpse into the character and learnt to retroactively care about her.

I mean ultimately that worked as far as characterisation is concerned. As in I definitely care about Farnese now.

But it does reduce the emotional impact of the should have been traumatic scenes.

These are really good points. I totally agree about the grimdarkness – like I care when the protagonist has a traumatic backstory and it leads to him making unfortunate decisions, I’m less affected emotionally when random npcs are being tortured in two-page spreads for shock value.

+ tbh i don’t think it’s necessarily a mistake to introduce Farnese’s dark side first and then reveal her better nature, bc I do like when writers make you love a former antagonist and I love that about Farnese, but it definitely adds to the differing tones.

And I mean it does make sense to reverse the Golden Age format this way – now instead of beloved characters going dark, we can have dark characters learning to be better. But it really boils down for me to feeling like it’s been too easy I guess. Guts made new friends and now his hound is on a leash and now it’s the Berserk armour’s fault when he tries to murder everyone. Farnese dropped the pyromania and became a protector. And yeah for Farnese it’s been an ongoing journey as she gets braver and more competent and learns new things, and I love that journey, but since deciding to join Guts she’s never had second thoughts or felt sadistic or masochistic urges and more internal conflict for her would’ve been sweet.

But again, that’s assuming that this Guts and Friends story has all been a journey of personal growth and a brighter future, and not just the calm before the storm. So we’ll have to wait and see.

Also related to that last ask but my response was getting way too long so I’ll mention this separately:

I feel like part of my problem with the current lighter tone is that a lot of the darkness, specifically the emotional angst, of Berserk so far was based on the fact that all the main characters are traumatized and have shitty coping mechanisms. Guts Casca and Griffith sure, and also Farnese and Serpico (neglected throughout childhood and coped by burning people alive and terrorizing ppl, and abused by peers and Farnese + weird expectations from his mother and coped by becoming an unfeeling doormat). And none of them have really dealt with it?

Griff transformed into a monster so fine his story has a conclusion, and Casca’s is maybe coming to fruition soon, but Guts’ trauma just transferred from rape and abuse to feeling manpain about Casca’s trauma, which is a huge disservice to both characters if it’s never brought up again and dealt with.

And while Farnese is bettering herself we’ve never really seen her actual issues addressed, and her whole sadism burning ppl alive thing just kind of easily melted away in favour of a new helping someone philosophy. I wished for more internal conflict there, basically, and I hope it’s addressed in the future but for now it seems like a pretty abrupt change and a missed opportunity. And Serpico is still Serpico. He hasn’t changed a whole lot but his issues haven’t negatively impacted anything either.

In the Golden Age all the psychological baggage these characters had contributed to its absolute disaster of a climax. And I’d love, love to see that happen again, esp with Farnese and Serpico adding more shit to the pile, or I’d love to see their issues flare up but have them manage to overcome them now that they’ve grown in a happier, healthier contrast to the Golden Age.

But throughout the Millenium Empire arc all these issues the characters have never really affected them adversely. I’m hoping that now that we’re delving into Casca’s psyche things will start to snowball and we’ll see that these traumas haven’t just been forgotten but only put on hold for a while so this group can be happy and hopeful.

But for now I do miss reading about fucked up characters and the internal and external challenges posed by their issues.

Unpopular opinion i guess but i really miss the grimdark tone of the early berserk volumes (well except the gross rape stuff). I’m not a big fantasy fan and i started reading the manga bc of the horror-ish/realistic elements in it but since guts new party came into the picture it has gone through a dizzying tonal shift lol. Also griffith/guts is my main emotional investement here and ngl i have a hard time caring about guts new party,griffiths companions and all the other secondary (contd)

(cont’d) characters that have seem to multiplied since the aftermath of
the eclipse. the comic bits with isidro and puck are especially
tiring. idk i just miss griffith/guts interactions and the golden
age/black swordsman arc.

Yk I mostly agree. I love Farnese and Serpico, and I find NeoGriff’s side of the story rly engaging, but overall I’m also not super invested in most of Guts’ posse and I feel like I’m kind of just waiting for half of them to die lol. Like Magnifico, you’re just not necessary man, your cute subplot with Puck adds nothing.

When it comes to tone I also mostly agree? Like I recognize that this is personal opinion and I totally get why people would enjoy lighter, less angsty Berserk just as much if not more, but I’m a big fan
of dark stuff, I got into Berserk in part bc it was dark and tragic, and
my favourite kind of light fluffy stuff is when it’s bittersweet
because of what’s to come (eg the whole golden age), or when it’s a stark contrast to the darkness
surrounding (eg when Jill falls asleep on Guts’ lap – great sweet
moment, all the sweeter because it’s surrounded by darkness in and around Guts).

So yeah, it’s subjective, but also… tbh I think the way the change of tone has been executed is lacking. Liiike, idk eg the Golden Age had a lot of light, good, funny moments, and the tone of it definitely wasn’t grimdark until everything went to pieces. But the humour was more balanced and natural and plot-based, I felt, rather than the current digressions for Puck to be cutesy and Isidro to be a little brat. Like, Puck also had gr8 funny moments during the Black Swordsman and Lost Children arcs, to balance out the rly dark tone, but they felt better integrated to me then in general, character-revealing and part of the plot, rather than asides that distract from the focus of the moment.

Maybe it’s part of the difficulty of making your core cast larger – like there are a lot of panels now that are just a series of reactions from the side characters to the main action, and it interrupts the flow imo. The secondary Hawks in the Golden Age didn’t get that amount of time dedicated to their reactions to stuff bc they weren’t important except insofar as their reactions added to the tone or to our understanding of the main characters (eg the abject horror when they run into the eclipse, the raiders crying when Guts returns, etc). Now it feels like an obligation to include 8 characters in everything even when they’re not particularly important to the scene.

Also there’s a bit of tonal whiplash with that bc it’s still just as gorey and violent, and there’s still gratuitous rape w/ trolls and ganeshka eg (though way fewer rape threats and attempts at least, which is one blessing for sure). It’s just that there’s more children and elves and their wacky antics too, which makes it a little whiplashy at times.

And this isn’t really related to anything you said but for my part there’s also the way that the first two arcs feel like a self contained story. The Black Swordsman arc shows Guts being a depressed anti-hero, the Golden Age arc shows how that came to be. The rest of it is very open-ended, which isn’t a bad thing obviously because we’re all excited to see where it’s going and that’s the nature of an ongoing series, but it does make it harder for me personally to enjoy some of it because I don’t know what the payoff is yet. A lot of the post-eclipse stuff feels like seed-sowing for later drama to me, and until we get to that drama I’m unable to react to the seeds with anything more concrete than anticipation.

TBH tho that’s just my personal thing. I almost never get into ongoing stuff lol, most of the shows I watch I wait until they’re over because this is how I feel about ongoing works. For lots of other people I’m sure the sense of anticipation and not knowing what’s to come adds to their enjoyment, rather than diminishing it, but for me I feel like I can never truly appreciate something until it’s over. So looking back I might find all this a nice change of pace between dark angsty and emotional arcs, but at the moment I do miss the angst lol.

lol sorry I kind of took this as an opportunity to share my own less positive thoughts on current Berserk. Don’t get me wrong though everyone reading this, I still love it, and it still has a lot of breathtaking sequences and moments, and a lot of great characters. And earlier Berserk wasn’t perfect either by a longshot. But yk, just when it comes to tone and style of comedy and cast of characters I get why people would have a preference.