lmao honestly I have a lot of ships that I can imagine being into threesomes but griffguts is not one of them, I think zodd would get murdered. like guts would fight him to the death before letting him touch griffith. and griffith would rather watch guts fight someone over him than get double teamed anyway.
like guts/ngriff/zodd = guts and zodd fighting while griffith jerks off imho
whether this is literal canon or modern au lol.
tho to be more fun if there is a scenario in which this happens – say guts is in falconia for whatever reasons, whether he’s straight up lost control of his life and gone beast of darkness and murdered all his friends and decided to join griffith or whether it’s part of a larger plan or something, and ngriff and zodd are already fucking on the regular and guts walks in on them or something and ngriff is like, ‘care to join us ;)’ – guts would start by immediately trying to compete with zodd over who can fuck him better.
zodd would win objectively but lbr he’d still end up so intensely third wheeled he’d get up and make himself a sandwich. and griffith probably orchestrated this scenario just to get guts to fuck him anyway.
tho also one more concept i can throw out, guts and zodd fighting/competing over griffith could turn sexual between them. i mean it would be a disservice to their canon interactions to ignore that there’s some chemistry there lmao
in which case griffith would immediately regret everything, kick zodd out, and give guts the most intense lay of his life.
also ia zodd’s asymmetrical one horn look does kind of bug me lol.
Also I think we’re meant to like them which I find v interesting and hopeful lol. Like from Raksas who is a huge dick but also very entertaining and fun to Grunbeld who has a whole backstory novel in which he’s 100% sympathetic protagonist from everything I’ve heard about it, they’re made to be likeable characters. Which is great because it makes it less likely we’re headed for some kind of boring Guts’ side vs Griffith’s side, Good vs Evil story lol.
Not that I’m too worried about any conflict between them being framed as simplistically as good vs evil, but still.
My ideal plotline is probably Guts’ side and Griffith’s side teaming up against a greater antagonist, like those few chapters where Guts rode Zodd into battle against Ganeshka writ large, and the fact that Griffith’s side of the story isn’t framed as evil or even antagonistic but as protagonists of their own narrative makes that seem more possible.
Failing that, just like I love Guts getting monstrous without literally becoming a monster I love seeing apostles that are sympathetic and humane. Moreso than say, Rosine who is sympathetic but also yk, pretty damn fucked up regardless, apostles like eg Locus are just chill. Locus is like a famous knight who apparently exorcised his apostle bloodlusty urges by competing in tournaments before he joined Griffith, and since joining Griffith has been pretty dedicated to fostering peace between humans and between humans and apostles. Give or take possibly sending Raksas after Rickert (or possibly not, we don’t know yet) he hasn’t done a single negative thing that we know of. Same with Irvine, who seems to hunt animals, rather than people, and Grunbeld who has the aforementioned novel where he’s p much portrayed as heroic as far as I can tell, and Zodd who is compared to Guts the most when it comes to the whole man vs monster thing.
So yk even if they do ultimately end up fighting Guts, I feel like it’s not going to be a simple conflict where we’re meant to root for one side or the other. Tonally the fact that there’s a conflict at all would probably be depicted as negative.
as an aside, imo the biggest argument against that hope tbh is the new fast travel system which feels like nothing but set up for an eventual attack on Elfhelm, but yk what, I’ve also been arguing that Eflhelm is going to end up being manipulative assholes, so maybe it’ll all work out in my favour anyway. Like maybe they’ll show up just as the readers suddenly realize we want someone to kick Elfhelm’s ass.
Like Miura has talked about writing Griffith as a protagonist of his own story, and you don’t spend a hundred chapters on a narrative that follows those protagonist/heroic story beats just to suddenly make them evil no good antagonists again lol.
I feel like Guts and Griffith’s stories are going to end up being basically morally equivalent from different angles. Man vs inner monster; monster vs inner man lol. Human volition, monstrous strength, yadda yadda yadda.
Like this is one of the strongest themes of the story lol, one brief scene where they team up cannot be the sole payoff, come on. Especially when it’s Guts and Griffith in conflict, rather than Guts and Zodd who don’t have that whole history of being ridiculously in love with each other.
Anyway like, the two sides don’t necessarily need to team up again, but conflict between Guts and Griffith’s narratives falls soundly on the monster side and it’s gonna be depicted as such, and therefore negative. like guts will be consumed by the armour when that happens and he’ll probably have killed or will kill one or more of his friends as well, that kind of negative.
When it comes to Charlotte though, I really have no idea lol. If I have any guess at all, it’s that she’s probably not going to do anything particularly significant. Like, thematically she’s got nothing going on that I can think of, she’s just kind of there being in love with Griffith and enabling his power grab, so I can’t really theorize about how she’ll fit into any future conflict.
I know a lot of people want her to learn about Femto/the Eclipse in the hopes that the rose coloured glasses break, because in a way i think she’s kind of representative of buying Griffith’s perfect image, but I doubt it. Even if she does like, see him transform into Femto or something lol, even if all of Falconia sees it, I don’t think it’ll change anything. They’ve seen him lead an army of monsters and speculated about whether he’s even human already, showing off a black outfit and bat wings is probably not going to make or break anything for him relationship or publicity-wise at this point.
I guess my biggest hope wrt Charlotte is just that she’ll get some screen time acting in some capacity as a leader. She’s got some inner strength at least, as we saw like, during the Griffith rescue mission a million years ago, let’s see her use it in some way as queen.
tbh I actually love it in the Black Swordsman arc bc I don’t think it was meant to be anything particularly significant, like, plot-wise (tho lmao i wish, but it’s probably only a coincidence that it looked kind of like a fetus lol)
I think it was just supposed to be a recurring demon that represents like, the self destructiveness and futility of Guts’ revenge rampage. like a proto beast of darkness but instead of being scary and cool it’s just sad and pathetic. the twisted remains of yourself after you’ve been consumed by revenge.
which i say mainly because of that one image where guts sees it with vargas’ face. but also if you re-read its early appearances with that in mind it fits very nicely with the rest of the black swordsman arc’s themes and the way it unnerves guts more than anything else he sees, and the way it appears when he’s feeling self-doubt and fear of failure, makes a lot of sense.
also his chapter 2 nightmare where it chases him works super well with that in mind. This nightmare is later echoed by his chapter 13 nightmare where it’s a monstrous representation of donovan chasing him, which is echoed again after Guts kills Adonis and sees himself as that monster. It’s very neatly cyclical – chronologically, it goes Guts’ own personal monster followed by Guts’ fear of becoming a monster followed by Guts well on his way to becoming that monster. And I just love that the fetus thing isn’t a cool monster, it’s just pathetic, which is perfect in the Black Swordsman arc where Guts is paralleled to Vargas.
relatedly it’s really off-putting to re-read the scenes where it appears after miura retconned it into being his weird demon kid lol. Totally fucks up that interpretation. Like you can maybe read it as a reminder of Guts abandoning Casca/his repressed guilt over it, but I have no idea how that’s supposed to work with the nightmare, or the direct comparison to Vargas, etc.
Maybe it still kind of works as a symbol of Guts becoming a monster in that the fetus is is all demony because it was corrupted by Femto or w/e, but like… considering all its later appearances are helpful and protective rather than sinister, it really doesn’t work for me. It’s a big mess.
especially beast of darkness/neogriffith tbh, i am super into this concept. or even a role reversal au where guts was the one who became a godhand member or mb apostle.
and femto/guts also has its appeal. or femto/beast of darkness, monster4monster.
guess i’ll put this under a cut in respect to ppl who follow me more for meta than long posts about monsterfucking lol
side note to kick this off: i once had a shockingly coherent berserk dream where femto turned out to be a periodic temporary transformation, kinda like a werewolf, and he’d turn back into post-torture griffith after wreaking some evil havok, and griffith wouldn’t remember anything. and this led to guts having sex with griffith-as-femto (who was less hilarious petty ex a la black swordsman arc and more like, the kind of atmospheric scary horror movie monster who motionlessly watches you from across the street and appears in the bathroom mirror after you look away briefly lol) in order to distract him from like, leaving to go murder people. and guts framed this to himself as like penance for abandoning griffith but at the same time he was also into it because despite being terrifying femto was still a version of griffith who he loves and has been pining for for 4 years. it was a high quality dream tbh.
but anyway, like the way their relationship is depicted as so obsessive and singular i feel like there’s something v compelling in either of them becoming the extra evil embodiment of the worst aspects of themselves and the other still wanting him bc even that darkness is an aspect of the person he loves? like that’s p canon actually
(not to mention how suggestive the beast of darkness gets)
like either of them, canon guts or au griffith where guts became a monster, hating the other for destroying everything and ruining his life but still high key “longing” for him.
relatedly, the canon mutual pining thing during the golden age but then the first time they act on their repressed sexual feelings is after one becomes a monster and consequently has lost that repression and has nothing stopping him from acting on his lust? and the other is like, oh no you’re a monster and i hate you now but also i’ve been lying to myself about not wanting this for 8 years and i’ll take what i can get.
doesn’t quite fit with actual canon (one can argue femto is even more repressed lol) but whatever, actual canon sux.
or both of them having succumbed to their inner darknesses but still finding that spark of light and their own humanity in each other is srsly good stuff.
like lbr neogriffith letting beast of darkness guts fuck him instead of fight him and predictably feeling all those not actually frozen feelings even tho it’s just like, a vague twisted echo of what their relationship could’ve been once… also good. maybe focusing on the physical to distract himself from/ignore his feelings to the point where he doesn’t notice he’s got tear tracks running down from the corners of his eyes afterwards. i mean what better time to get that payoff on ‘the crystalization of your last tear shed’ right?
also there’s a devilman spinoff/missing scene manga where akira lost his consciousness to the demon he melded with and ryo brought him back by kissing him. and i’m js
the sex version would work v well in berserk. imagine guts waking up from a prolonged stretch of time as the beast of darkness while balls deep in neogriffith and just clinging to him like an anchor, at least until he comes and eventually regains the presence of mind to assess the situation lol.
what other angles are there? idk i feel like there’s a lot of room for playing around with the monster versions of these characters.
i mean i get why ppl often don’t want to even ship post-eclipse griffguts let alone their evil monster versions bc miura poisoned that well, but honestly idgaf personally, i’m not gonna let that stop me. ngriff/femto/beast of darkness all have so much potential here.
also sorry i focused more on feelings than physical specifics but that’s bc a) i’m better at talking about feelings and b) femto and the beast of darkness are anatomically pretty boring lbr lol. i mean femto especially is barely a monster physically, that’s like, all feelings lol.
@ anon who sent me an ask last night, my answer to your question is i hate miura
but tbh i have no energy or desire to get in depth here so apologies if this comes across as flippant. if you want a better answer feel free to message me or ask me unanon.
You get a bit more info about the whole merging of the worlds thing in the next like 10-15 chapters, w/ Rickert
visiting Falconia and talking to Locus, and some dudes talking about how
the world was altered in Elfhelm, so if you want to just keep reading and draw your own conclusions then ignore the rest of this response.
But basically I think the idea behind it is that for humanity (including apostles) to unite and yk stop being dicks to each other on a grand scale, they need a common enemy. And merging the worlds allows humanity’s collective imagination into the real world, turning it into a high fantasy and giving humanity a shitload of their own nightmares to deal with as that common enemy.
I think Falconia is also a side effect of this – humanity, or at least Midland and co, collectively willed it into existence as a safe utopia with a bird theme because Griffith just saved the world and they all want him to lead them. There’s that historical memory/legend of Gaiseric’s empire, so this is like version 2.0.
Quick and easy way for Griffith to gain a utopian kingdom with full support of the vast majority of the people in it. Plus saving the world, turning it into high fantasy, and ruling the only peaceful kingdom in it kind of gives you carte blanche to do whatever you want. Societal expectations are out the window. Human Griffith as king probably would’ve faced huge obstacles when it came to gaining support and implementing even small changes in, say, how much power the nobility had, while NeoGriffith can do whatever the hell he wants.
There’s also the effect of allowing the Godhand to exist physically in the world, I think, which will probably turn out to be important. Does it grant them more power? Does it make them vulnerable? Both? Something else? idk yet but it’s intriguing.
tbh I lean towards assuming Locus sent Raksas after Rickert, but I’d also be pretty ok with it turning out to be Griffith after all. bc like, if it’s Griffith then that’s got some intrigue because it seems like a reaction driven by emotion rather than logic – Rickert isn’t a threat in any way. He’s a kid and he was planning to leave on his own. And it’s a plan that spectacularly failed, while all NGriff’s plans succeed because he has fate on his side. Therefore, if NGriff sent Raksas, then it was probably a stupid decision driven by an emotional need to, idk, erase that rejection from someone from his past.
I think it’s a lot more likely that Locus sent Raksas on his own initiative though. Partly bc it’s kind of a hard sell that NGriff would fuck something up that bad lol, but also because, like… sending an assassin after Rickert, even if I can argue some emotional complexity out of it, crosses the line into villainous for the sake of villainous that I don’t think NGriff is actually going to cross.
Tho again like, if he does cross that line it better be in a way that I can argue demonstrates interesting emotions. I’d rather it involve Guts than Rickert tho.
I genuinely think the authorially intended reading of Guts’ decision is that it’s complicated and there are multiple reasons Guts is choosing to take Casca to Elfhelm over revenge right now. It’s not a simple matter of Casca straightforwardly being more important to him or just choosing Casca over Griffith.
Hopefully this is the kind of answer you’re looking for, idk the subject is a little broad. I’ve kind of said this in some other posts too but I think it’d be handy to have a nice and orderly list to link to so I’m just throwing it all out in response to you.
So here are the various complicated reasons I think Guts has for going on his take Casca to Elfhelm quest:
1. He gives a fuck about Casca. He gave a fuck about her and saved her life even back when he hated her, because she was his comrade, and I’d certainly hope he cares about her now.
2. Elf cave is gone, and he’s not so shitty a person that he’s just going to abandon her in a field for ghosts to eat.
3. He is aware that revenging made him a worse person and he wants to be better. Guts at his best is someone who does not abandon his friends and family but rather stands by them in their hours of need, and he wants to be that person again.
Good Guts:
Bad Guts:
Good Guts:
Bad Guts:
Like, yk, abandoning people or staying with them is kind of Guts’ major thing throughout the story.
4. He is longing for a piece of his lost past, and Casca represents the Hawks.
Additionally suggested by how every time he pictures her from the past, after that last pic, it’s as a Hawk commander.
And statements like this:
And the general fact that he’s trying to “force” her sanity back despite forboding warnings and actually contemplating on page how awful it might be for Casca, suggesting that it’s less for Casca’s own sake and more Guts’ selfish need to regain some of his happy past.
5. Griffith looking human and sexy makes him forget his urge to kill, lessening the temptation of revenge and probably making Guts doubt his ability to follow through.
nuff said
6. Guts’ whole revenge campaign was less about revenge and more about making himself feel better and getting Griffith’s attention. Last time he saw Griffith the dude declared that he was completely free of his feelings for him and then “deserted” him in the snow lol. This has also lessened the temptation of revenge – now pursuing Griffith feels extra fruitless, because Griffith (claims he) doesn’t give a fuck.
7. He feels guilty for abandoning Griffith back in the Golden Age and refusing to abandon Casca (this time) is a way to make up for that mistake.
8. Like the Beast of Darkness says, Casca reminds him of “the wound Griffith left” because he wants to keep feeling the pain he caused him. Both because it helps simplify his conflicting and confusing feelings into rage, and because, harkening back to point 6, imho it’s a masochistic reminder that he meant enough to Griffith for him to be worth lashing out at.
I mean consider the context of some discussions of wounds in berserk. “I too want a wound… that I can say you gave me.”
Or Griffith tracing his shoulder where Guts’ sword failed to touch him, maybe:
Anyway regardless of how suggestively that statement can be taken in the greater context of Berserk and wounds, there’s definitely some truth to it because it’s what Miura gave as the reason he didn’t kill Casca:
9. He’s still planning to return his focus to Griffith eventually. He hasn’t so much given up his revenge quest as put it on hold. It’s probably easier to say “not now” to himself than to say “never.”
10. Narrative convenience keeps him on the straight and narrow. eg:
cue Guts literally passing right out ten seconds later. it’s pretty easy to decide to get on a boat instead of get revenge when you can barely stand and going for revenge would be literal suicide. and even then Guts needed Serpico to step in and tell him not to be a dumbass.
Soooo yeah I think that about covers the various reasons Guts has for putting aside his revenge quest to take Casca to Elfhelm, which add up to smthn a lot more complicated than choosing Casca over revenge. I contemplated adding another section that’s like… a giant list of Guts utterly failing to prioritize Casca or demonstrate that she’s “more precious than Griffith” lol, but I might just do that in a separate post next time I’m feeling salty.
Sorry, just want to make sure I’m understanding you correctly, do you mean you think that instead of being afraid of Guts after he sexually assaulted her, Casca hates him?
Bc honestly I’d argue that it’s probably both, or at least I’d like to hope Miura doesn’t boil Casca’s feelings down to “fear” but allows for some rage and hatred too.
I think the timeline of Casca’s feelings that we’re pretty explicitly shown is that after the Eclipse she’s scared and mistrustful of him (Guts forcibly grabbing her several times afterwards and nearly kissing her after ripping her dress probably didn’t help that), but then Puck speculates that Casca “sensed” that Guts rescued her during the Conviction arc and therefore trusted him.
Then Guts got possessed and strangled her, dragged her around tied to a rope for a while, then sexually assaulted her, and those positive feelings understandably vanished to be replaced with fear, mistrust, and ia, what definitely looks like hatred in a lot of her expressions. And I really hope that’s followed through and not ignored or downplayed.
major thought: it’s a sign that griffith is emotionally compromised. not just the slap but also the way griffith did not have a single thing to say in response to rickert other than acknowledgement that the hawk emblem has changed, ie that he’s not the same person rickert was loyal to
his silence suggests that this is troubling to him. that rickert’s rejection is meaningful to him as a rejection of his identity, and therefore that acceptance from the last remaining member of the old band (who is sane and hasn’t declared war on him) would have been meaningful to him.
which suggests that this
said by Guts to Rickert shortly before this lol:
applies to griffith.
basically i think that scene is a strong indication that it’s not just his dream ngriff’s longing for.
oh also I hope there’s also potential for ngriff to have a bit of an identity crisis a la ascended ganeshka after rickert’s refusal to accept him as the same person and ngriff’s acknowledgement – especially w/ his “nothing has changed” statement being repeated.
like there’s room for irony in both directions there, ykwim? “nothing has changed” = lol ngriff still has feelings for guts, he was right but not in the way he thought. and “nothing has changed” = a denial which he’s forced to confront eventually
oh and one more thing along those lines – you could suggest he’s doing the same thing guts is doing right now
lol so i read some of the comments and knowing the guy is playing guts for the sake of a black swordsman pun and it’s not meant to be serious makes this kind of cute imo
Ah I think I’ve figured it out haha Thank you anyway, love the blog!(I’m
the anon asking about if I was starting in the right place.)
I just got home from work and saw this and wanted to reply real quick before bed, it’s probably unnecessary by now but just in case lol.
So yeah you probably know this, but definitely start from the Black Swordsman arc, there are sometimes fans who will recommend skipping it but they’re wrong. the chapter numbers are a little weird, the first 16 are unnumbered so some sites repeat them, some give them different designations (like 0A presumably).
And i’d say make sure you’re reading the official dark horse translation, because there are a lot of confusing scanlations floating around the internet that i don’t recommend. mangaseeonline has it if you’ve found a scanlation and want to switch over.
Can I just say all of chapter 2? I was tempted to go with the end of chapter one as a character establishing moment, yk Guts looking scarier than snake man as he gleefully tortures him, but honestly chapter 2 is where it’s at when it comes to Black Swordsman Guts.
4.
Guts finally, somberly realizing he shouldn’t’ve left, telling Judeau and Casca he’ll stay with Griffith, both of them telling him to leave because he did such a thorough job of proclaiming he’s got a nobler goal and separating himself, just hammering home how it was a mistake.
3.
This is a double feature because I couldn’t decide between these two scenes and they essentially say the same thing anyway:
and
Guts haunted by the fear and temptation of becoming a monster. I love the sewer nightmare, especially coming right before Promrose Hall. The way it conflates Zodd, Donovan, and Guts after he kills Adonis. Guts’ self-loathing here informing why he reacts so badly to the overheard speech too.
And then after Rosine and a fun child-killing spree, these ghosts voicing his inner thoughts. The self-loathing, muddied by the temptation of giving in and following in Griffith’s footsteps, ironically the same choice he made after Promrose Hall. Griffith’s dream made him a monster, and Guts’ dream is doing the same – and the Black Swordsman content is absolutely Guts pursuing his own dream, to fight stronger and stronger opponents.
2.
Guts channeling all his painful feelings into rage here. I can’t really say the whole rampage through Midland lol, there are moments I like less, but definitely the start of it, the reunion in the depths, killing the torturer, one man army-ing up the stairs and out the door. It’s just so good. Exactly how Guts avoids dealing with his feelings, really awesome to watch, nice sense of protectiveness, and excellently illustrative of how devastated he is to find Griffith after a year of torture.
1.
Guts finally, finally beginning to accept that he’s found a new home, the place where he belongs, here with the Hawks and Griffith, after Griffith risked his life to save him from a monster (in a particularly meaningful contrast to his childhood). Finally beginning to move on and heal a bit. This is the moment of greatest potential for Guts and p much the pinnacle of his life and it’s so effective at putting the reader and Guts at like, a height from which to fall.
Bonus 6:
This only gets a bonus spot bc I’ve mentioned it a few times before as one of my favourite Guts moments and I don’t want to be too predictable lol, but it’s so good. This whole scene. Guts ostensibly wanting to fight Femto but more than anything wanting his attention and only being spurred on to even stand up when Femto says that.
I think they don’t understand Griffith at all and probably willfully ignore a huge amount of his story.
A god complex is an unshakable belief characterized by consistently inflated feelings of personal ability, privilege, or infallibility.
I mean I’ve talked about my take on Griffith enough that I could collect it all into a book at this point lmao, but in essence no he is full of self loathing and guilt and exists by living in denial and trying to bury it.
He portrays an image of utter confidence and security, maintains it well enough that he buys his own con to an extent, but even that confident self-assured image isn’t god-complexy. His assessment of his own abilities is realistic. He knows he’s good, he has confidence in his abilities, but he also knows when he’s outclassed.
He doesn’t think by default he’s one of the people he believes are fated to change the world, he just hopes he is. He wants to see how far he can go, and not for the sake of being important, but in service to a greater goal which is fueled by disgust at the state of the world and his own sense of guilt.
He doesn’t have a falsely inflated perception of himself, if anything his self-image is much more negative than it should be.
You see any other mercenaries in Berserk who feel guilty for the enemy soldiers their underlings kill?
And like, eg, Griffith feels ashamed about assassinating people while Guts thinks he should be telling the rest of the Hawks all about it and has absolutely zero problem with burning a room full of nobles and royalty alive.
And as Casca lays out here
his confidence isn’t an ingrained personality trait, it’s something he manufactured and wears like armour, which is why sometimes it shatters and reveals the exact opposite – the guilt, the self-loathing, the insecurity – underneath.
Idk it seems like the same type of Berserk fan who calls Griffith a sociopath or a narcissist or a control freak or whatever. Like… no. That’s a wild misreading of his character, and honestly the story isn’t exactly subtle about his giant heap of issues that drive him so idk why so many people refuse to see it.
Like, re-read chapter 17 and this time look at the pictures of him self-harming too, bc that adds a little necessary context to statements like:
Like, this is so far from subtle that people just choose not to understand it lol.
(This isn’t directed at you anon, just yk, the fans you’re talking about.)
ennnnnnnnnnnnh arguably like a city’s worth of people iirc lol. like, tens of thousands. of refugees.
it’s a bit of a stretch to say Guts sacrificed them, but essentially yeah if either he or Casca had died then all those tortured souls wouldn’t’ve been drawn out of the ether by their two brands, which is what destroyed everyone and allowed Griffith to resurrect himself into the world
Mozgus and the townspeople were trying to kill Guts and Casca during the climactic fight, not because they knew the ins and outs of how the brands worked but because they were like, blaming them for all the ghosty shit going on and trying to pacify god or whatever. Ironically they were completely on the right track, if for the wrong reasons, bc killing either of them would’ve saved everyone.
To be fair to Guts he didn’t know this. Puck kept this shit to himself.
On the other hand, his attitude when Mozgus is like, don’t you care that you’re trading thousands of lives for the life of one witch isn’t “I don’t believe you” but rather “i don’t give a shit, those people suck anyway” lmao
What’s kind of fucked up is that this is the narrative’s attitude too lol, like it 100% backs up Guts here. Luca even got her little statement at the end that
everyone who acted out of faith in a higher power died, while everyone who acted out of self-preservation managed to survive. Like the
narrative really did not give a shit about these people.
Forty Hawks? The most tragic of tragedies. Tens of thousands of refugees? Fuck em, they deserve it, they are the faceless violent masses. Nothin fucked up about that. (Even though both groups end up dying because they clung too hard to their faith in someone, so by Berserk’s own ridiculously cynical logic it serves everyone right.)
It is kind of weird tho, like I wouldn’t expect Guts to give a shit
about thousands of innocent people, but I would expect him to feel some
kind of way about his part in resurrecting Griffith. But the narrative
kind of just ignores that.
Also Skull Knight’s prophecy kind of muddies the waters a bit, because he says that man cannot divert the course of the festival or w/e, but like… if Guts had jumped off that tower and killed himself, festival over. If he was like, yeah good point, and broke Casca’s neck, festival over. Femto stuck in the astral plane. Thousands of people don’t die. So idk what that’s about. Maybe it’s meant to be ironic.
After all, the mock Eclipse is a reflection of the regular Eclipse. Guts and Casca both survived the regular Eclipse, and they’re meant to survive the mock Eclipse, because their presences there is what causes it. But Guts seems to believe that he’s defying fate by surviving, and it feels like the narrative is pushing that, even though logically it’s simply not the case.
Like, the mock Eclipse follows the actual Eclipse exactly even while we’re repeating the words “it doesn’t mean it will be exactly the same” and “maybe you’re like a fish breaching the water’s surface” over Isidro saving Casca and then Guts winning against Mozgus the first time (before he levels up with rocks). Guts is still on top of a giant hand focused on Griffith while someone else is saving Casca lmao. Guts and Casca both survive, just like they survived the first time. I have no idea what the story is going for here because everything played out perfectly to imitate the first Eclipse and resurrect Griffith.
So idk maybe the point is that Guts is a stubborn dumbass who is ironically playing into actual God’s (and Griffith’s) hands by defying Mozgus and maybe eventually we’ll revisit this?
Or maybe the conviction arc is so convoluted and weird that even Miura couldn’t keep track of what he was trying to say with it lol.
You’re very correct, I’ve actually seen Black Sails and I loved it. Flint is probably one of my favourite protags ngl. spoilers bc i kind of just want to gush about it now lol.
It was so refreshing to see someone declare violent bloody war on the oppressive system and be portrayed as p much morally correct lol. “This ends when I grant them my forgiveness, not the other way around,” is like, one of my favourite lines. The ending was a little disappointing but it was also portrayed as bittersweet rather than happy – like we were meant to be sad that Madi didn’t get her war! it was great! so I was pretty satisfied with it overall.
Also solid ship content. Max/Anne and Max/Eleanor are both great, v interesting and complex ships, and both Flint/Thomas and Flint/Silver have their appeal. (Also Flint/Vane. You can’t tell me they weren’t enemies with benefits.)
And you just can’t beat setting up a protagonist as a mysterious dude, seriously driven by something but teasing the audience about what exactly motivates him to be so hardcore and incredibly awesome, only for the surprise reveal to be that he’s gay and motivated entirely by the loss of his relationship w/ a dude (which then turns out to be surprise endgame! truly unkillable gays and unbury your gays are the best tropes).
I mean the first half of season 3 had me a little with the focus on Miranda, but then season 4 got back on track w/ revolving around Thomas and I was ok w/ it.
Plus a lot of awesome also complex and interesting secondary characters, and a fast paced engaging plot, and a fun real world/treasure island mashup, that whole monster vs man theme which i always love w/ flint vs mcgraw (team flint tho, like one of my favourite moments of the series was the end of season 2 when he leveled that town), 2/3 endgame ships being gay, idk it was just solidly enjoyable. ty for bringing it up!
I’m sorry but I really don’t have much of a clue lol, I’m very out of the ASOIAF loop. Maybe Brienne and Arya? They’re the sword women (well Arya’s a kid but w/e) right? Also idr any specifics beyond somewhat villainous with interesting fatal flaws of some sort lol, but I have this vague idea that I’d like Cersei maybe.
But yeah all I have to go on is tiny bits of fandom osmosis lol. It’s not likely I’ll ever actually get into it, but in the off chance I do I’ll revisit this. Ty for your interest anyway even tho I have to disappoint.
Anyway now I’m curious, who are your favourite characters/relationships in the series?
costantly jokes about the eclipse rape itself potato casca donovan rape
horse and all the other sexual violence in the manga dismisses
griffith’s own sexual trauma and generally refuse to hold miura
accountable for its depiction of sexual violence on women. Smh 2/2
np thanks for the ask! And yeah I completely agree. So many people in this fandom will say, call Griffith fans rape apologists in one breath and then turn around and make rape jokes or sing Miura’s praises or excuse Guts or insist Griffith wasn’t victimized by Gennon or etc etc in the next and it’s very telling ngl. It’s really not that they (the fans who tend to make rape jokes and excuse other instances of assault specifically) give a fuck about the Eclipse rape, it’s that they were itching for their hatred of Griffith to be justified lbr.
honestly no, or at least, not in the way you probably mean. and this isn’t me being a griffith apologist and reaching to make excuses for him lol, this is me looking at each scene and getting a very different conclusion from them. like i really just don’t think they logically add up to griffith turning into a rapist demon when you examine each scene you mention, even though it’s admittedly a really really easy connection to draw at a surface level and I can see why people do draw that conclusion.
tho i guess the first duel is actually kind of a “sort of,” to be fair.
at this point the golden age stuff is really hardcore calling back to the black swordsman stuff in an excellent way, and making some v overt comparisons between Griffith and Femto, largely for the sake of… well, for the sake of establishing both similarities and eventual differences.
Griffith’s narrative is a gradual tearing down of our (and Guts’) expectations about him – we start with this larger than life mythical sort of figure who we already know eventually betrays Guts and becomes a demon, so we begin with showing his ambition, his drive, the deference his followers show him, his ability to take out Guts with one parry, etc.
He literally starts out as basically the same antagonist we saw a few chapters ago, at least in Guts’ eyes:
Like, this is meant to show the singleminded obsession that we’re led to believe is why he betrayed Guts to become a demon.
But it’s also a set up for a later revealing subversion of expectations:
In all fairness to Griffith, Guts is the one who gave him the chance to win his loyalty in a fight. Griffith didn’t demand he fight for his freedom or anything lol, he just asked Guts to join, was taken aback when Guts refused, and then leapt at the chance Guts provided to win him in a fight. He even offered to wait a while until Guts had healed more. That’s like, consent right there.
But by taking Guts up on his ridic offer he is definitely kind of pushing the limits of this whole need he has for people to freely choose to follow him, which is also an early sign that Guts is extra special.
Anyway the more overt rapey overtones to this fight, ie Guts basically offering sex slavery if he loses, say more about Guts from a characterization standpoint than they do about Griffith. Griffith is like, lol sure, clearly having no actual intention of taking him up on the sex offer.
But coming after a) the Black Swordsman arc, and b) Guts’ childhood, what this exchange does is draw a comparison between Griffith and the men who abused Guts as a child, both to the reader and in Guts’ mind. (I would argue that this is why Guts insists on fighting him – after Griffith one hitted him Guts is actually scared of him, and his rape trauma informs how he interprets and responds to fear. But I digress)
And again, this is both subverted and played straight. We should’ve already been able to draw comparisons between Femto and Gambino. We’re told about the sacrifice, told Griffith sacrificed Guts, then shown a flashback to Guts’ childhood in which his trusted father figure sold him to Donovan. That’s our explanation for Guts’ vendetta against Griffith/Femto. The sacrifice was a replay of his childhood trauma, and it fucked him up. And our introduction to Griffith here, with Guts projecting his trauma at him, plays off that.
The subversion is in the fact that Guts basically falls in love with Griffith, or insert some platonic phrase meaning essentially the same thing here, because I’m trying to be as objective as possible here lmao. It’s not another Gambino situation where Guts loved him because he was his father and the only family Guts knew, Griffith earns Guts’ love. Griffith is loveable, frankly. He risks his life to save Guts after a week, he‘s put together a merc group that behaves more like one big happy family than like a bunch of hired killers, and Guts spends the three happiest years of his life with him.
We also have Casca’s running commentary helpfully informing us that Griffith’s feelings for Guts are genuine because he’s acting very out of character around him already.
Like to bring this home, Griffith’s narrative is:
to
One reason it was so brilliant to start with the Black Swordsman arc is because it reverses the expected narrative – instead of being shocked when a character we love decides to sacrifice Guts to become a demon, we’re surprised over and over again when a character we were introduced to as a villain turns out to be motivated almost entirely by his intense, very human, very vulnerable, very sympathetic, love for Guts, rather than the expected sociopathic ambition. (And even that ambition has a very human, very vulnerable, very sympathetic source, ie, guilt.)
And, basically, the first duel starts this narrative off by emphasizing the qualities we expect to see in Griffith while simultaneously sowing the seeds of the qualities we end up surprised by. Hence the exchange that emphasizes Guts’ rape trauma – because it also foreshadows/calls back to the sacrifice.
tl;dr the first duel is rapey as part of a comparison between Guts’ childhood trauma and being sacrificed eventually, and it serves as a starting point on which Miura builds a shitload of complexity and basically immediately begins tearing down the image of Griffith as a haughty evil sociopath. Plus at this point idek if Miura had the Eclipse rape in mind – he’s mentioned he decided to have Guts and Casca get together for the sake of more Eclipse drama partway through, and this is pretty early on.
Okay, that’s one out of three. Now, as for scene #2
no I’m kidding, I’ve already written a lot about the other two scenes so I’m not going to reiterate it all here esp since my first answer was already way too long lol.
So I got a more thorough explanation here, but basically the narrative treats the night with Charlotte as consensual sex despite her “no,” and therefore I do too in my reading of the narrative, it’s shitty but so is Miura, the end. Like, I consider this scene the equivalent of Guts grabbing Casca’s tit during an argument. Yk, was that foreshadowing for Guts sexually assaulting her (again but in a dramatic scene next time), or was it Miura being a dumbass?
The super short version of that is that Griffith does have issues with consent – his own – and if you tilt your head a bit you can argue that it might inform the Eclipse rape as a reversal of power dynamics. But it’s not a preview of it, it’s a contrast.
One thing I’ll finish with, though, is that there is a scene that I think can arguably foreshadow the Eclipse rape better than any scene you mentioned, and it’s chapter 39.
This is my very very thorough explanation of it (in like the last 3rd or so of that post), but long story short everything Griffith calls the king out on is something he hates/fears about himself, and I would definitely argue that this scene shows the guilt + self-loathing Griffith feels after trying to keep Guts at his side by force, through a really unsavoury parallel to the King’s predatory lust for Charlotte, as well as the parallel between how their respective “rejections” destroy them.
So yeah, if there’s any scene that I think foreshadows Griffith’s inner darkness being rapey, it’s Griffith comparing himself to the King in a fit of self-loathing. But there’s a reason my explanation is like a million words long lol, it’s pretty subtle, and therefore kind of hard to state definitively.
Okay, and one very last thing to throw out there as a conclusion to this mess:
The Eclipse rape only has the shock value Miura wanted it to have if it’s a contrast. It’s there to demonstrate that new Evil Demon Griffith is a bad dude who does horrible things Our Griffith wouldn’t do, and draw a hard line between regular human Griffith and Femto, which is also what enables Guts to express his feelings thru murderous rage.
This is lost on a lot of fans because people are really, really eager to see Griffith as Pure Evil The Whole Time, but straight up, objectively, that is what the text is going for – the Eclipse rape is a defining character moment for Femto because it’s a harsh contrast to the Griffith we, and Guts, have come to know and love. It’s meant to shock the reader and make them – or remind them to – hate Femto lol, it’s not meant to give them a pat on the back and tell them they were right about Griffith being an evil predatory gay all along. That’s just a very unfortunate side effect.
2/2 could harbor such cruelty inside. It makes me question my reading of his character sometimes tbh
lol finally got it, ty for trying again!
and yeah I think I get what you mean.
Partly what I do is just kind of like… take the rape as read? Like fine, Miura is of the belief that people’s inner darkness comes out through sexual violence 90% of the time. We see that in Griff, Guts, most apostles, Slan, and even Farnese. It’s something he wants to like… “explore” is a very generous word lol, but let’s go with that, explore as a more generalized statement on humanity, rather than as an individual judgement on any of these characters.
I don’t want to go through the scene and find the panel lol, but Slan even gets that line during the Eclipse rape, “this is what it means to be evil. This is what it means to be human.” Or something along those lines. Miura just like, chose rape as his central illustration of the worst aspects of humanity. So it’s not really the particular cruelty Griffith harbours in him, but rather the cruelty all of humanity does.
So I just kind of nod along lol, even while I think it’s gratuitous and poorly done most of the time. It’s sort of built into the fabric of the story unfortunately.
On a characterization level… enh.
I guess I can sort of reconcile it as long as I have that authorially-provided nudge of “evil = rape by default” lol. If I just accept that and go along with it, then yeah ok, Griffith turns into a demon filled with all of humanity’s evil, and expresses his negative emotions by spitefully raping Casca. Fine, whatever. That’s what humans in Miura’s Berserk do when they become monsters.
And I mean I do think that Griffith has some cruelty in him, so there may also be a difference in how we see his character too. It’s not really a big stretch for me to believe that an evil demon version of Griffith would want to spitefully lash out at Guts and even Casca, because human Griffith’s feelings towards them were pretty complicated – well complicated wrt Guts, we didn’t really get any insight into his feelings towards Casca other than a sense of fondness + protectiveness and some jealousy at the end, and maybe some resentment at the thought of her taking care of him.
Like, it’s enough for me to believe that the evil demon version would want them to suffer.
Like
I could definitely see a part of Griffith enjoying the fuck out of being able to say this to Guts. The part that resented him for how much he loved him, that tried to strangle him in the torture chamber. Even just the part of him that frowned for a second when Guts asked why he risked his life to save him from Zodd. It’s just that as a human that part is swallowed up by overwhelming love and yk, generally being an actually good person who doesn’t want to hurt people, but ends up doing it a lot anyway and burying the guilt.
(And I will argue forever that human Griffith is pretty much the most morally upstanding character in Berserk by most standards lmao, which is part of what makes his narrative through “I sacrifice” so good.)
Anyway yeah, idk basically I think I get what you’re saying and I half agree but also I find it fairly easy to just kind of roll with it because Berserk’s gonna Berserk lol. Like, take Griffith, magically enhance this part of him:
remove/freeze this part:
and have him written by a dude who thinks rape is the best way to illustrate the darkness of humanity, and I can see how Griffith could become Femto. His lingering feelings for Guts could be enough to make him hesitate to kill him, but not so much that he doesn’t want him to suffer. Also I kind of assume that Femto retains some feelings for Guts because Guts survived the sacrifice, but that doesn’t mean he has lingering morals or anything like that. So I can kind of reconcile him wanting to hurt Guts in his Evil Demon In Berserk way, but also failing to follow through and kill him.
Like imo it’s Griffith’s Guts related irrationality coming back to fuck him up lol, rather than guilt or morality.
Idk does this make sense/address what you’re saying? I focused mainly on the eclipse rape because that’s what I jump to when talking about Griffith as a human vs Femto’s evil lol, hopefully that’s also what you meant.
there must be something in it that makes tumblr refuse to send it. like a link maybe? or ellipses apparently may also prevent it from sending lmao because tumblr is ridic. or emoticons or special characters or no spaces between sentences.
oh no, I didn’t get the first part of this ask. Is there any way you can resend it?
eta also i just checked reasons an ask might not send bc honestly i’m curious about why tumblr sucks lol, and it says this as reasons an ask might’ve not sent:
The ask included links, paragraph breaks, special characters, emoticons, or ellipses, or didn’t have spaces between sentences.
which sounds like a ridic set of restrictions to me but there you go, maybe one of those is why i didn’t get it.
i was kind of sitting on this waiting for the next time i felt the urge to complain lol, but honestly i’ve been pretty chill recently and not in the mood to dwell on negativity so this is more just a list rather than the long rant it could’ve been
so idk, the usual suspects mostly. the eclipse rape, casca’s half of the hundred man fight scene (both bc the rape attempt and bc it takes up so much fucking time in the anime), the wyald rape attempt, the possessed horse rape attempt, guts assaulting casca (with the caveat that while the eclipse rape exists i actually prefer to have that scene as well, bc it’s like, fine okay everyone’s evil inner darkness is rapey, whatever. its existence makes it extra easy to roll my eyes at the writing as a whole, basically, and i appreciate that)
then you have the boring category of scenes, like the overlong troll fight, the overlong beach fight, and the sea god dear lord. your annoying comedy scenes like every scene featuring any combination of isidro, puck, ivalera, and/or magnifico (Puck is exempted when it’s just him and Guts, otherwise he’s on thin ice). every appearance of the moonlight boy saving guts from himself, but especially the first one with the family imagery. basically any g*tsca teasing especially since guts assaulted her. I think it’s going to end in tragedy, but regardless the story should not be encouraging the reader to want them to get back together, it’s awful, but there you go.
finally there’s your occasional worryingly fanservice-y moments featuring underaged characters, which are my most hated because they are the only scenes that make me question whether i should be hyping this story from a moral standpoint. but i p much just split the difference by not spending any money on the franchise and otherwise try not to think about it, frankly.
with the focus on Miranda, but then season 4 got back on track w/ revolving around Thomas and I was ok w/ it.
you're the only one 