mostly berserk meta. i'm into berserk mainly for griffguts and i'm a huge fan of griffith.
Tag: a
@yesgabsstuff said: I totally
agree that this is a child’s idea and I guess that’s what makes it so
upsetting to me? That its emotionally stupid and an intellectual
failure? Idk man.
tbh the idea that griffith stumbled into his dream and worked backwards to justify it feels a little absurdist to me, which i love, especially in conjunction with Berserk’s take on fate/meaning, ie, humans literally create it out of a desperate need and it fucks them over.
but yeah there is something inherently upsetting in the idea that everything that went down in berserk is ultimately because of something stupid and childish. it’s the kind of upsetting i dig though haha.
tho now that I think about it wrt his higher aspirations (equality, nobles suck, etc) we know he had them before the kid died because of how he saved Casca, so I do think those were always part of his motivation for becoming king, but… I tend to think they’re a little childish at heart too, for Griffith. More born out of obstinacy, with actual philosophy and reasoning applied later.
Well I had the urge to talk about Griffith’s motivation to be king again. tbh I’ve said a lot of this stuff in various scattered posts and conversations, but I want to have it all laid out nicely in one place. And I’m using a meme question as a springboard.
Does your character have a story goal and a believable motivation to achieve that goal?
For
human Griffith I actually find his motivation for wanting to become
king one of the most interesting aspects of his story. One thing I really dig about
the way fate works in Berserk is that despite it sitting there and
pulling strings to manipulate everything, characterization and character
decisions never feel arbitrary to me.
To be honest it can kind of seem
like Griffith has no real motivation for wanting to be king and it’s
just an urge placed there by fate, but I think everything the reader
needs to know is right here:
It’s
not really that he has no original motivation, it’s that his original
motivation is fucking stupid lol. It started out as an extremely
childish “I want that” desire, possibly with a side of contrariness since he was a commoner, and because he was a child, and tenacious,
he decided to go out and get it.
Then, before he had a chance to
re-evaluate his baby dream and whether it’s a worthwhile goal, he started getting people killed for it and his resulting
(repressed) guilt lead to him doubling down on his dream, hard.
At least since
the dead kid and Gennon I’d say his motivation has been 90% “I have to
achieve this to justify the fact that a bunch of people are dead because
of it.“
This
is more of an extrapolation, but imo Griffith’s mind is working
backwards to how you’d expect – it’s not that he wants to achieve the
dream because it’s some great, all-important and shining thing in his
mind. The dream becomes great, all-important and shining because
building it up in his head is partly how he justifies all the awful
guilt-inducing shit he does to achieve it. All these people died for his
dream, therefore his dream must be special and important and worth dying for.
He says he wants to know his place in the grand scheme of things, whether he’s one of the “keys” that move the world. And to me, in conjunction with what we know of his motivation (childish ambition, followed by mounting guilt spurring him onwards), that sounds like a desperate desire to know whether all those deaths were worth it. If his destiny is to become king, then he’s justified and doesn’t need to feel guilty and can continue suppressing his guilt. If it isn’t, then it was all a waste and he has to actually deal with his inner “reality” of being a child on top of a pointless mountain of bodies.
It’s rly lucky for him that it turns out it is his destiny lmao.
I generally agree with this; particularly on the point of how he makes decisions. I see him as someone who makes an emotional decision and then his considerable intellect steps in to cover his ass so that the choice isn’t as destructive as it could be. I think however, that while his initial desire is born out of a childish desire for something out of his reach, that he earnestly believed that he could make things better as a king due to his common birth.
He has this very real emotional need it would seem to be special and to be the person to “pull themselves up by their bootstraps” in contrast to uninspired others. This could be covering up any number of emotional wounds inside him, and I think that this is as close as we get to Griffith articulating the same emotional emptiness that Guts does.
All of that pathology aside I think his natural distaste for injustice and his intelligence took these emotional needs and made them into a desire to be the philosopher King; better than a blood noble could ever be because he could actually understand people’s struggle and he would deserve to be there. I think his problem comes is that he’s using the master’s tools to take down the master’s house. He must use violence, he must look at himself as superior to others, he must cut off his human feelings in order to achieve this goal. It is literally divine right rather than what his idea of “merit” that has put him on that throne next to Charlotte. It’s terribly sad.
I totally agree! tbh I avoided going into this bc i wanted to keep the focus on guilt and childishness, but, especially in NeoGriffith’s chapters, there’s a lot of stuff about overturning the “natural order” of inequality and oppression and war etc.
Ooh plus Casca’s line while she’s telling Guts her story about how when the nobleman attacked her she thought it was just the natural order of things, until Griffith threw her a sword and rearranged her world.
And then the Eclipse is basically a mirror of that flashback scene with Femto taking the nobleman’s place and finishing what he started, so it’s a visceral, grotesque and symbolic depiction of becoming a manifestation of that “order” in his attempt to overturn it. Including the fact that he actually is chosen by God lol like he accused the nobleman of believing.
Ofc now that you’ve mentioned the master’s house quote I kinda want to wonder if it’s all eventually going to come crashing down because Griffith became what he was trying to overturn. idk.
idk the point is I solidly agree with your addition and i want it on my blog lol.
ALSO
I think that this is as close as we get to Griffith articulating the same emotional emptiness that Guts does.
wonderful point, nothing to add but I love this.
Well I had the urge to talk about Griffith’s motivation to be king again. tbh I’ve said a lot of this stuff in various scattered posts and conversations, but I want to have it all laid out nicely in one place. And I’m using a meme question as a springboard.
Does your character have a story goal and a believable motivation to achieve that goal?
For
human Griffith I actually find his motivation for wanting to become
king one of the most interesting aspects of his story. One thing I really dig about
the way fate works in Berserk is that despite it sitting there and
pulling strings to manipulate everything, characterization and character
decisions never feel arbitrary to me.
To be honest it can kind of seem
like Griffith has no real motivation for wanting to be king and it’s
just an urge placed there by fate, but I think everything the reader
needs to know is right here:
It’s
not really that he has no original motivation, it’s that his original
motivation is fucking stupid lol. It started out as an extremely
childish “I want that” desire, possibly with a side of contrariness since he was a commoner, and because he was a child, and tenacious,
he decided to go out and get it.
Then, before he had a chance to
re-evaluate his baby dream and whether it’s a worthwhile goal, he started getting people killed for it and his resulting
(repressed) guilt lead to him doubling down on his dream, hard.
At least since
the dead kid and Gennon I’d say his motivation has been 90% “I have to
achieve this to justify the fact that a bunch of people are dead because
of it.“
This
is more of an extrapolation, but imo Griffith’s mind is working
backwards to how you’d expect – it’s not that he wants to achieve the
dream because it’s some great, all-important and shining thing in his
mind. The dream becomes great, all-important and shining because
building it up in his head is partly how he justifies all the awful
guilt-inducing shit he does to achieve it. All these people died for his
dream, therefore his dream must be special and important and worth dying for.
He says he wants to know his place in the grand scheme of things, whether he’s one of the “keys” that move the world. And to me, in conjunction with what we know of his motivation (childish ambition, followed by mounting guilt spurring him onwards), that sounds like a desperate desire to know whether all those deaths were worth it. If his destiny is to become king, then he’s justified and doesn’t need to feel guilty and can continue suppressing his guilt. If it isn’t, then it was all a waste and he has to actually deal with his inner “reality” of being a child on top of a pointless mountain of bodies.
It’s rly lucky for him that it turns out it is his destiny lmao.
The fact that Guts decides to pursue an equal
relationship with Griffith after hearing the speech is what singles his
relationship with Griffith out as unique. Everyone else in Griffith’s life is content to
either look up at or down on him.
Even the Princess, his future wife,
just marvels at the speech while literally looking up at him, rather than showing any desire to find a
dream herself and become “worthy” of calling herself his equal.
Because Guts is the only one who wants to genuinely connect with
Griffith – who wants to stand beside him by achieving something of his own – Guts is Griffith’s only “true” relationship, the only
relationship he has based on real affection and genuine desire for the
person, and not just what he represents, either as a symbol of hope and achievement (for the Hawks), a symbol of security and happiness (for Charlotte) or a symbol of corruption and loss of power (for those plotting against him).
Which just makes it so wonderfully ironic that Guts is the only one who made Griffith forget his dream.
Yes. Though we have to add that Guts perceives Griffith still as someone “different from a normal human being”.
His perplexed reaction that Griffith has weaknesses, when he comes back…or that he could be the reason for that.
I think it is more like…Guts wasn t aware that he didn t had to climb the mountain, but maybe just had to look at Griffith differently.
tbh i spent a good chunk of my golden age re-read pondering how guts and casca relate to griffith in different, opposing ways, and never coming to any proper conclusions
but i find it interesting that guts does see griffith as different, and godlike, and perfect (at least after overhearing the speech) while casca sees him as a vulnerable, real person with insecurities and issues of his own, and keeps trying to tell guts that.
and yet casca is the one who showers him with worship while guts treats him with irreverence, disobeying his orders, insisting they go and hang out with him after casca muses over how “distant” he is after a battle, questioning him, letting loose and acting playful around him, deliberately placing himself to protect griffith at the battle of doldrey, “he’s the only person i can’t stand looking down on me,” etc.
i have a vague idea that the discrepency between how guts thinks of him vs how guts treats him is at least partially bc guts planned to uproot his life and abandon his friends to get on griffith’s level, which lbr is a bad decision to make if you don’t believe griffith is on a level somewhere way above you, so he subconsciously ignores and deflects all indications that griffith is just a flawed person in his singleminded focus on his own “dream.”
which is similar to what i perceive griffith does wrt his own dream. like, if the castle is what shines in griffith’s mind, then griffith is what shines in guts’ mind. and i feel like griffith also has to subconsciously convince himself that his dream is worth pursuing despite the negative consequences. ~parallels
and omg yes @ your last sentence. i rly think the golden age was all about false perceptions, yk?
The fact that Guts decides to pursue an equal
relationship with Griffith after hearing the speech is what singles his
relationship with Griffith out as unique. Everyone else in Griffith’s life is content to
either look up at or down on him.
Even the Princess, his future wife,
just marvels at the speech while literally looking up at him, rather than showing any desire to find a
dream herself and become “worthy” of calling herself his equal.
Because Guts is the only one who wants to genuinely connect with
Griffith – who wants to stand beside him by achieving something of his own – Guts is Griffith’s only “true” relationship, the only
relationship he has based on real affection and genuine desire for the
person, and not just what he represents, either as a symbol of hope and achievement (for the Hawks), a symbol of security and happiness (for Charlotte) or a symbol of corruption and loss of power (for those plotting against him).
Which just makes it so wonderfully ironic that Guts is the only one who made Griffith forget his dream.
Scrolling thru my blog past this art and suddenly hit by a huge amount of love for Casca. If I could rescue one character from their shitty writing (in anything, not just Berserk) it would be her.
The more I think about it the more appealing the thought of her waking up and absolutely wrecking everything is. Like I know this doesn’t make sense because the same dude is still the writer, but there’s something viscerally satisfying to imagining her getting her mind back, gaining some impressive amount of power (Behelit, elf powerup, whatever), and metaphorically flipping the table and completely changing the trajectory of the plot as a pseudo-meta response to being locked away as a non-entity for 2 decades, and playing support for two dudes before that. I want her to cause something to happen that’s as epic and active and hardcore as her being a childlike waif for so long is passive and shitty and awful.
Idk I guess I’m mad about it so I want to see Casca angry – effectively angry.
Like all this thematic stuff about inner beasts becoming literal beasts ft Griffith and Guts, and the character I most want to see lose themselves to rage is Casca. Even if it’s depicted as a negative I would be fistpumping.
Those years of being locked away in your own head need to count for something. I’m a little sick of Casca’s romantic ‘feminisation’ arc which took place simultaneously to the Gatsca mini arc.
It’s almost as if, by virtue of realising her feminity and ‘gentleness’ Casca suddenly started getting more positive attention and began to be written as more likeable.
Like as long as she was the head strong commander who called Guts out on his shit and kept everyone in line she was the ‘salty bitch’ and suddenly she’s trembling and blushing and holding onto Guts’ cape and she’s everyone’s ‘waifu’ .
I don’t have a problem with the softness. I have a problem with how this is treated differently in the narrative than how she originally was portrayed. And one is positive and the other was rather unflattering.
omg strong agree
it was like as soon as casca became a love interest she started fretting about whether her muscles weren’t womanly, judeau talks about how she had to give up being a woman (lol jesus) as a mercinary, when she takes the healing powder to guts he also fondly thinks about how she’s “showing a soft side,” and then during the sex scene you have her getting self conscious of her scars and guts having to tell her he thinks she’s womanly enough.
like it’s run of the mill sexist stuff but still so annoying and unnecessary. i wouldn’t even dislike casca being self conscious when sex enters the picture because like, fine, she’s inexperienced, she’s different than most women in that she’s a strong mercinary, i could understand that affecting her self-image, but combined with the running commentary from judeau, plus like how you said, the way she seems to get consistently weaker and clingier and blushier, just doesn’t sit well with me.
(which isn’t to say she doesn’t still have some great moments after getting love interested up, but it’s like she has to be damseled extra hard to compensate.)
plus just in general what I love most about her seems to be more her informed attributes and a few moments of awesomeness (punching a wounded man in the stomach because she doesn’t like him, terrifying corkus, wholly commanding the respect and adoration of the Hawks, being called the 3rd best fighter in the Band who can take on ten strong men at once even if we never get to see that in action, taking command and leading the Hawks when Midland turns on them and at the start of the Eclipse, etc) so when she returns as a full character I’d just, really love to see that badass side in full epic action finally, without being weakened by her period or a drug or exhaustion, or up against an extra powerful enemy Guts needs to save her from, etc etc.
tbh I have to go with the tragedy of Guts and Griffith’s relationship throughout the Golden Age. I genuinely love so much about Berserk, after the Golden Age too, and the other characters, but honestly that arc is the best, most personally appealing tragedy I’ve ever read. Like ‘dude who’s got his life planned out perfectly and then falls in love with another dude and fucks it all up’ is my absolute favourite plot already, but then add Griffith’s guilt issues, his total divorce from his own emotions, the misunderstanding that’s built up so well on a strong foundation of character, Guts’ own complex issues, the way it’s a tragedy built on miscommunication that actually works and doesn’t feel cheap, etc.
But most of all I love how well Guts and Griffith suit and complement each other before everything goes to hell. Reading the Golden Age is like watching 2 dudes walking together down a road full of turns and forks, and there’s a hundred possible paths they could take that lead to happy destinations, but they keep choosing the turns that lead to the pit full of tigers. And you know exactly why they choose the paths they choose, it makes perfect sense based on what you know about them, which just makes the inevitable tragic end that much better. There is nothing I find more entertaining in fiction than watching characters make mistakes and understanding perfectly why they’re making those mistakes.
Like “I sacrifice” is an emotional climax so satisfying that it makes me want a cigarette.
least favourite:
the rampant misogyny tbh, among all the other shit that offends me. But if I had to pick one more specific thing as my least favourite, it would be the way Casca is sexually assaulted multiple times because Guts and Griffith want to fuck each other but can’t bc the writer won’t let them so they both assault her instead while staring directly at/thinking about how they want to be closer to the other. There are other aspects of Berserk that I’d say are more offensive, but this particular one wins because it’s so integral to the characters, the relationships between them, and the plot in general that you can’t just go ‘welp that was awful’ and then pretend it didn’t happen.
The second thing is kind of my main beef with the series too. And in a way it sometimes ruins my favorite parts as well. Because while contemplating certain parts of Guts and Griffith’s dynamic you can’t ignore the fact that their primary expression of that dynamic is through holding Casca between them as an incidental proxy and that leaves a sour taste in the mouth.
There’s some serious internalised homophobia in the narrative to be completely honest and it comes out in the scariest ways. I wonder if over the years the author has become aware of it or if it is still subconscious.
Because some of the wording used is very suggestive but the narrative always shies away from spelling it out at the last moment.
If there wasn’t a level of this restraint, we may have had a kiss or two during Golden Age, who knows? The atmosphere certainly built up to it.
But mostly particularly I am talking about the way the hound talks about Griffith. It’s very very suggestive.
Speaking of this, in that old Kentaro Miura interview, I think there’s a point where the interviewer asks if there’s romantic undertones to their relationship or something along those lines (and the translator notes that Kentaro Miura looks slightly uncomfortable and uncertain here) and Miura replies- I don’t think so, it’s not necessarily like that between boys. The intensity is normal.
I mean sure. Yes. Completely normal level of intensity that.
lmfao @ the interviewer specifically noting that miura looks uncomfortable while answering bc like
dude… dude. how do you accidentally write something this gay. sure it’s possible but on some level you have to know what you’ve done, right?
maybe it’s like the old hollywood rule where if you want 2 friends to have engaging chemistry together you gotta play them like they’re in love. miura like, hmmm i need to really sell guts and griffith as a strong friendship. better add 50 romantic tropes to make sure it’s believable.
question for anyone who has an idea:
what do you think is going on here?
is it
a)
Griffith notices Casca fumbling with his bandages due to her shaking
hands and tries to comfort her. It’s super awkward because he can barely
move, Casca interprets it as sexual before realizing what he’s doing, holding him, and
then having a breakdown because he’s so helpless. Casca’s opening thoughts on how Griffith used to be able to comfort her with just a hand on her shoulder may suggest this, as well as Griffith overhearing her say “I just wanted someone to be near me.”
b) Griffith tries to come on to
her to regain some sense of power and control by utilizing the crush he knows she had on him, fails horribly because he can barely move, it’s awkward. Casca reflecting on how weak he is and that now it’s her turn to comfort him, pointing out his lack of power, may suggest this.
c) Griffith needs comfort himself, it’s
super awkward because he can barely move, Casca interprets it as sexual
before realizing and holding him. The second to last page up there where Casca tries to shove him away before noticing he’s shaking and then wraps an arm around him may suggest this.
d) Griffith tries to come on to her when he notices she’s starting to shake and getting increasingly awkwardly chipper to try to entice her to stay with him, offering something he thinks she wants. His vision of a future later, where he’s dressed up but immobile and Casca seems to have a sexual relationship with him (as
she leans in to kiss him)
may suggest this, as well as Griffith overhearing Casca say “I just wanted someone to be near me.”
e) Griffith tries to come on to her jealously/to break up her relationship with Guts. The fact that he just saw her embracing Guts may suggest this.
f) some other option I haven’t thought of.
also this is just before the eclipse. so yk, that’s also relevant. for (b), eg, the eclipse serves as a strong contrast on the axis of power, and possibly also a statement on griffith feeling emasculated and seizing that power back when he goes evil.
but like (a), eg, serves as a strong contrast on the axis of morality, as well as ominous foreshadowing due to casca misinterpreting it as an advance and pushing him away at first.
i literally can’t settle on one option lol, the first four at least all make sense to me. like i lean towards (b) when i remember that miura is a dude, but i lean towards (c.) when i’m looking at that specific page bc it seems so clear that griffith needs comforting badly, and i lean towards (a) when i read the whole chapter because of casca’s fumbling and reflections on his formerly comforting hands and i lean towards (d) when i think about griffith’s role as a character – and how that also works as an interesting contrast to the eclipse. yk griffith offering himself to casca in helpless desperation vs raping her as an evil demigod, which is the same contrast i see between human griffith being vulnerable to others’ desires and neogriffith being invulnerable to them, being the one who takes rather than the one who is taken from.
idk man, maybe the reason it’s ambiguous is bc all of them work. schrodinger’s come on.
Scrolling thru my blog past this art and suddenly hit by a huge amount of love for Casca. If I could rescue one character from their shitty writing (in anything, not just Berserk) it would be her.
The more I think about it the more appealing the thought of her waking up and absolutely wrecking everything is. Like I know this doesn’t make sense because the same dude is still the writer, but there’s something viscerally satisfying to imagining her getting her mind back, gaining some impressive amount of power (Behelit, elf powerup, whatever), and metaphorically flipping the table and completely changing the trajectory of the plot as a pseudo-meta response to being locked away as a non-entity for 2 decades, and playing support for two dudes before that. I want her to cause something to happen that’s as epic and active and hardcore as her being a childlike waif for so long is passive and shitty and awful.
Idk I guess I’m mad about it so I want to see Casca angry – effectively angry.
Like all this thematic stuff about inner beasts becoming literal beasts ft Griffith and Guts, and the character I most want to see lose themselves to rage is Casca. Even if it’s depicted as a negative I would be fistpumping.
tbh I have to go with the tragedy of Guts and Griffith’s relationship throughout the Golden Age. I genuinely love so much about Berserk, after the Golden Age too, and the other characters, but honestly that arc is the best, most personally appealing tragedy I’ve ever read. Like ‘dude who’s got his life planned out perfectly and then falls in love with another dude and fucks it all up’ is my absolute favourite plot already, but then add Griffith’s guilt issues, his total divorce from his own emotions, the misunderstanding that’s built up so well on a strong foundation of character, Guts’ own complex issues, the way it’s a tragedy built on miscommunication that actually works and doesn’t feel cheap, etc.
But most of all I love how well Guts and Griffith suit and complement each other before everything goes to hell. Reading the Golden Age is like watching 2 dudes walking together down a road full of turns and forks, and there’s a hundred possible paths they could take that lead to happy destinations, but they keep choosing the turns that lead to the pit full of tigers. And you know exactly why they choose the paths they choose, it makes perfect sense based on what you know about them, which just makes the inevitable tragic end that much better. There is nothing I find more entertaining in fiction than watching characters make mistakes and understanding perfectly why they’re making those mistakes.
Like “I sacrifice” is an emotional climax so satisfying that it makes me want a cigarette.
least favourite:
the rampant misogyny tbh, among all the other shit that offends me. But if I had to pick one more specific thing as my least favourite, it would be the way Casca is sexually assaulted multiple times because Guts and Griffith want to fuck each other but can’t bc the writer won’t let them so they both assault her instead while staring directly at/thinking about how they want to be closer to the other. There are other aspects of Berserk that I’d say are more offensive, but this particular one wins because it’s so integral to the characters, the relationships between them, and the plot in general that you can’t just go ‘welp that was awful’ and then pretend it didn’t happen.
Guts has always been so hungry for love and somehow, I think this has always been his dream from the start – to have someone want HIM, not necessarily his fighting skill whatsoever, but someone to appreciate him as a person, to trust him, to care for him, to watch his back, to just give a damn. I think Guts too had to make himself strong (just like Griffith), so he could survive in a world, where nobody gave horse shit for a young unfortunate boy. He sought love and attention in Gambino, he so much longed for the affection of his so called father, but he only ever got the opposite. Once Gambino died, Guts sort of lost himself, he belonged nowhere, so he would fight his way through the lands of the world and live day for day.
But then Griffith came along – a boy who knew nothing of Guts, yet was ready to fight to make him his. And even if Guts was irritated by it (and in his ears, none of what Griffith said probably made sense), I think in the end, we wanted to feel as if he actually belonged somewhere – and Griffith became this ‘somewhere’. Hell, it took one gesture to render Guts speechless and make him ‘obey’ (because I can’t believe he would have stayed, only cuz he lost a duel if he hated the idea of it)- it was a chance to finally get, what he wanted the most in the world – someone, who actually cared for him.
And after the Zodd encounter, we see him watch the moon, remember Griffith saying he has put himself in harm’s way for his sake and he is pondering if this is the answer he has been looking for all along. And the question is stated few chapters back, when we see the little Guts lie on the ground, after having killed Gambino – where is he going if the world has nothing good to offer? But maybe Griffith’s care and affection is this ‘good’ he longs for.
So he eventually leaves – because he wants to EARN his place by Griffith’s side – he isn’t simply aiming for a home, for warmth, he wants more – just like Griffith. Guts’s dream is, in a way, to stand by Griffith’s side and to be worthy of the care and affection Griffith has given him and not be eventually ‘left behind’ by the hawk, who always aims so high. Because by Griffith’s side is where he wants to be the most.
Another thing I would like to add is, that I don’t think Guts was unaware of Griffith’s feelings, I think in a way, he always knew. Which is I think he is rather shown to feel guilty, whenever Casca confronts him about it, than actually deny it. I think he felt guilty to be a special person to Griffith, even though he didn’t do anything to deserve it, while Casca made this her dream and fought for it. And when she told him about her life and how she came to fight for Griffith, the realisation hit even harder. He didn’t feel as if he would lose Griffith’s affection if he stayed, I think he believed he had already lost it and had to gain it back by becoming his equal.
This is amazing meta and actually makes perfect sense.
The point you bring up about guilt seems so fitting. It would explain why when Guts was leaving, he was trying so hard to convince himself that Griffith would recover from it, that it was nothing more than a stumbling stone, and imo the heightened emphasis on that really made it seem like he was convincing himself rather addressing his internal monologue to Griffith.
Also the reason why Guts refuses to look at Griffith after defeating him. (and okay from Griffith’s point of view that must have hurt like hell) I think it is because he already knew what kind of expression Griffith might be making. He just didn’t want to look at the hurt and trauma he at least subconsciously knew must be there because he knew that if he did turn around and see the slightest bit of genuine vulnerability in Griffith’s face he’d never be able to leave.
And leaving was necessary for his bigger goal of having Griffith ” look at him”.
In my opinion Guts at this point wasn’t just looking for affection anymore. As unworthy as he might have believed himself to be of it at that point, Guts knew that his friends cared about him, he knew Griffith cared too. He acknowledges as much when he says “Atleast this confirms that to you I’m still worth spilling blood for.”
I think Guts was looking for admiration here. Infact very specifically admiration from Griffith.His words along the lines of “I’m tired of always looking up at him….I want him to look at me too.” The words ‘look up at me’ are not said but at least to me they seemed heavily implied.
Somehow I got the vibe that Guts desired to have some sort of power over Griffith here. “Make him look’ ‘compelled to’ these are power words. Guts isn’t just trying to improve his chances here, he’s trying to initiate a shift in power dynamics.
Griffith effectively said that he wants to have someone who can stand up to him or put him down and Guts fully intends to be that guy. There’s actually also a shift in Guts character from this point.
It’s an arc we don’t pay as much attention to but the one year after Guts leaves, his behavior has shifted. It seems more traditionally ‘masculine’ . He seems more confident, nearly complacent , powerful, calm almost playful.
…Almost a little like the Griffith we were introduced to in the beginning of Golden Age.
And this is fairly interesting to me.
iirc the official translation goes for more of an equals feeling with Guts saying that he’s sick of looking up at Griffith from within his dream and he wants to stand beside him by achieving something of his own.
But I still get the same vibe you do tbh despite that. And I think it’s because Berserk’s take on equality, at least between Guts and Griff, isn’t that neither has power over the other, but that they both have an equal amount of power over the other. Because for them, emotional attachment is power. (”When did someone I was supposed to have in hand… instead gain such a strong hold over me?” eg).
I totally think Guts wants Griffith to love him/admire him/etc and that comes with an implicit understanding that it gives Guts power over Griffith, the same power Griffith already has over him.
Like look at this page right after Guts leaves.
“I got this idea in my head from hearing Griffith’s words. If I hadn’t… so… can I say I’ve set out by my own will?”
I rly get the sense that Guts’ immense sense of admiration for Griffith is something he desperately wants returned because it makes him feel insignificant. Contrast this to the post-Zodd scene where he pledges his sword to Griffith after the reveal that Griffith saved his life “for his sake” – there Guts is holding his sword up, looking up at the sky, open body language, determined expression and monologue, meeting Griffith’s imaginary gaze, powerful. Here Guts is curled in on himself, no sword, second-guessing himself, looking down and away from imaginary Griffith, and Griffith dwarfs him.
He needs to return to the point in time where he believed (knew) Griffith had strong feelings for him and it made him feel powerful and limitless.
Add the way he keeps himself detached from the Band when he gets back and still plans to leave right up until they rescue Griffith, and I feel like his aloofness is both a) totally very similar to Griffith, parallels which delightfully continue for the rest of the manga, and b) defensive because he wants to prove that he’s not dependent on Griffith’s feelings towards him. Well, defensive is a strong word. But I do think he’s keeping himself detached on purpose because he’s cautious against Griffith’s “hold” over him, his own (he believes unrequited) emotional attachment to Griffith, yk?
And one step further, I feel like Griffith post-torture could’ve been kind of a wake up call that this line of thinking is a little silly. That Griffith was just a person, and Guts was just a person, and they wanted an emotional connection, and all these thoughts of Griffith looking down on Guts and Guts wanting to stand by his side as an equal and believing that he wasn’t there yet etc just got in the way.
The fact is that Guts went out to become Griffith’s equal and when he got back, by any metric these two dudes employ to measure power and equality, Griffith was no longer even on the playing field. And Guts was just realizing that he threw everything away for a dream that ended up not even mattering in the end… when everything went to hell, Griffith leveled up by becoming a demi god, and they ended up back at square one playing the sequel game, mortal enemy edition.
I think you have mentioned a few times how you would like to see people exploring NeoGriffith’s mind in a similar manner to Casca’s. And I would like to add, maybe this is the reason why he is said to dread a witch more than a whole army (or something similar).
The first thing he does after being reborn is to make sure he doesn’t feel any emotions any longer – especially towards Guts. And even if he believes the reason why his heart was bthumping was the demon kid, we already saw him hesitating to harm Guts during the Eclipse – even though he was bereft of any humanity, a physical body and his heart was frozen. Or at least this is how I saw the scene.
Because this is certainty to me:
While this is hesitation:
This scene was even better in the movies.
Anyway, what I was trying to get at – while trying to tell himself he is free, he must have had a reason – doubt – to visit Guts and prove it, which only proved the opposite.
And I think, what if the reason he seems to dread witches is, that he is aware he has a weakness, after all – somewhere deep inside, spot, a place, a feeling or a memory, which once brought back to life might mean his downfall – and only magical beings like them can enter his subconscious and trigger such a change.
And another meta about this so called “Age of Darkness“, which is related to this post – what if actually making him weak again is what would cause it – similar to the Eclipse. Because we all know how he handles, when being hurt and desperate.
I want this so much.
Gr8 point about how he was specifically going after Flora – and you know, the fact that Flora got killed but her protege got away has got to lead to Schierke doing something that Griffith feared Flora would do, right?
And we’ve seen Schierke do a lot of psychic exploration, with Guts and now Casca. So I’m down with this theory.
Plus like, the concept of someone getting inside NeoGriffith’s head and altering him again – unlocking latent emotions properly, or whatever – is so good. Dude’s been through weird magic processes that alter his mind twice now, so third time’s a charm.
Also interesting thought about the Age of Darkness – I’ve been assuming it’s the whole high fantasy thing, but we really don’t know for sure, do we?
Semi-relatedly, I’ve had a thought before that while NeoGriff is the messiah/saviour of humanity/dude who grants humanity’s subconscious desires and has the power to save or damn everyone according to the lost chapter, etc, does that hold completely true if the theory that he’s incomplete (because 2 of his sacrifices escaped) is true?
Like is there a scenario where he goes against what humanity wants deep down because his remaining emotions get the better of him once again? Idk this feels like it would fit well with your (rly cool tbh) idea of a weakened/hurt NeoGriff lashing out irrationally and starting an actual Age of Darkness, so I thought I’d throw it in.
Thanks for tagging me in this!
fun fact guts has always had a dream and it’s not “fight tough dudes at exhibitions” or “fight monsters” or “avenge the hawks” or “be the best at the sword”
griffith’s dream:
guts’ dream:
guts’ dream:
guts’ dream:
guts’ dream:
which is why this is so utterly cutting:
and why this just left guts totally dejected and made him give up that dream:
and why if guts finds out that griffith’s heart is bthumping for him that’s going to be either a serious game-changer, or a serious test of guts’ resolve in moving on from his dream.
Same, this is a real problem for me because I like trying to predict things, but I just can’t with Berserk lol.
I feel like he could swing an ending where somehow the Idea of Evil/Fate in general is like… defeated by humanity, who, thanks to whatever, would now rather struggle in an uncaring universe than blame all their problems on God. But I feel like that’s kind of unlikely because, idk, it just feels a little too big of a metaphysical change and too positive of a take on humanity for Berserk.
Honestly for me if Griffith does something irrational because he (not the damn fetus that’s a red herring as far as I’m concerned) still feels those pesky life-ruining emotions for Guts, and in turn Guts demonstrates his mixed-feelings towards Griffith in a powerful way, I’ll consider myself satisfied. Basically I’m thinking a 3rd duel (assuming Guts’ brand of sacrifice, which removes him a little from fate according to Skull Knight, means he can potentially hurt Griffith) where emotions are at their peak.
I’ve also vaguely considered an ending where Guts lets Griffith stab him, because he has a bad habit of doing that when he’s feeling conflicted about killing someone, or when he’s confronted with something that makes him feel guilty (in this case, the memories of human Griffith and their first two duels). In this scenario Griffith would be shocked because he expected Guts to block or w/e a la that time Casca stabbed him, and maybe have a breakdown beside his corpse.
I have a whole long speculative post here too but I can’t commit myself to one perfect ending lol, there’s so many possibilities. At the end of the day I just want that heavy emotional GutsGriff drama.
in the golden age always looked too big to me. I think there was this colour illustration once where they were all sitting around a campfire. and griffiths profile was in the foreground and he looked much much skinnier than the impression he gave whenever we usually see him in armour.
I wonder if it was a deliberate thing. To make himself look bigger?
i remember seeing a post somewhere about Griffith’s flashback armour with musculature details and how it thematically fits with Casca’s statement that Griffith is ultimately a weak human who has to make himself strong for his dream. Anyway i totally agree with you, the other armour fits that idea too, if less overtly.
Time to finally lay out my thoughts on these parallels and contrasts between Gambino, Griffith and Femto/NeoGriff.
Ok so starting with Human Golden Age 100% Certified Organic Griffith, even tho the parallels start off strong in the Black Swordsman arc, whatever, we’ll go chronologically.
So I remember saying that I had many thoughts on this but going back an examining them I found that pretty much all of that was mostly just me agreeing with the things you had already gone over in your post.
One thing though, Guts visualising Griffith in the moon is kind of a very interesting image for me. Because we have two other strong instances of similar imagery. The night Guts kills Gambino and at the end of Run he makes from Godo’s cave post-eclipse. In both cases he’s down, flat on his back, exhausted, doubting everything he’s ever known, not having any particular desire to go on.
And just then he looks up at the moon, and slowly pulls himself up again.
The presence of the moon almost seems to galvanise his actions and light up the way for him. Guts in that moment, seeing Griffith’s face in the moon and dedicating his current life path to him kinda seems like a symbolic extension of this fact.
Actually It’s interesting how Griffith is visualised in Guts head as to do with sources of lights, On the stairs of promrose hall he appears like a beacon, visualised as light at the end of the tunnel, as an inferno, as the moon, campfires, “Dazzling”, “burns so bright”.
Guts is one of the maybe only characters who has never compared Griffith to inanimate things or commodities- Never a doll, painting, statue, fine wine, idol or sculpture.
Fires are quite alive.
Nice! I’ve been checking out the moon imagery as I read and scratching my head ngl. I feel like the full moon represents fulfillment of some kind. Magic is at its strongest, moonlight kid shows up, Guts finds the will to keep going, Guts dedicates his sword to Griffith, etc.
Conversely, the eclipse is technically a new moon, and non-full moons appear prominently occasionally during signficant moments like Guts and Griffith’s last assassination together, Sonia’s chapter on loneliness, Rosine flying back home and dying, Ganeshka leveling up to Eldrich Abomination status (”on a night when you can’t see the moon”), etc
But idk it’s not completely consistent or anything and it’s nothing I can draw conclusions from.
Also gooooood point about Griffith as a source of light to Guts I don’t have anything to add to that, but it’s perfect.
like a traditional narrative would have guts going on his fix casca sidequest, which is overall framed as A Good Thing, succeeding, and then getting a reward at the end in the form of a loving sane gf because he Did Good.
Berserk instead fills it with ominous foreshadowing because yeah Guts is growing as a person and trying to do good, but it’s not that simple. When he first chose Casca over Griffith he was a huge danger to her and he needed companions to mitigate that danger, and she’s still afraid of him. Guts’ motives are also in question – for one it’s suggested that he’s being selfish in trying to fix Casca because he’s not taking her needs into account (”That’s right, she went to pieces because she can’t fully cope with it. What will she do if she does get her sanity back?”), and for another, he was still planning to ditch Casca again right up until Griffith showed up and soundly rejected him, suggesting that part of his motivation for trying to move on from his obsession with Griffith is straight up spite.
Nothing in Berserk is ever simple and pure and uncomplicated. No motive, no goal, no relationship, no emotion.
Guts is overall doing a whole lot better than he was during the Black Swordsman revenge rampage fiasco. He’s made new friends, he’s subdued his inner beast for now, he’s maturing, etc. But the same was true of Guts during the Golden Age. I don’t think anything as bad as the Eclipse is going to go down, but the way Berserk rolls, you don’t get an A for Effort. Guts had a very noble goal when he chose to leave the Hawks, and it was still a mistake.
Guts has learned from his mistakes enough to recognize that friends are more important than stupid dreams and he’s embodying that lesson now, but I suspect there’s a new one waiting around the corner: not just ‘you can’t force back what was lost’ but ‘if you try anyway be prepared for the consequences.’
woah woah woah i just realized i called that panel of sexy guts a griffith point of view shot but it isn’t, he can’t even see his face. But in the context of the shot reverse shot set-up (Griffith’s eyes, followed by what he’s actually seeing, followed by a closeup of Guts looking sexy actually from Casca’s pov, followed by what he’s actually seeing again, followed by Griffith’s eyes again) it’s an even clearer indication that he’s jealous of Casca and wants to be her in that moment imo. Like that shot of sexy Guts is a v straightforward visual depiction of desire centred so wholly between Griffith’s gaze that it feels like what he’s imagining she sees.
And the panel directly after it visually emphasizes Griffith’s removal and distance from them. Like damn the longing is palpable.
bc this is basically an addition to my reply to you, i just didn’t add it to the original post bc it was getting long and yk my point is still the same.
(contd) snuffed out (ironically so considering shes the one who doesnt know theyre related). basically: do you think that serpico and farnese are still reespectively knowingly and unknowingly incesting lmao?
That’s a pretty solid observation to be honest.
Hmm…I personally don’t think they are presently mutually incesting exactly. Because as you said Farnese’s interests have since shifted from the moment she ran into his arms as a teenager.
I think Farnese seeking out relationships had been for the longest time a way for her to find a meaning to herself and her own identity. Serpico was the first person in her life who seemed to have some sort of permanence in her life ( contrast with her ever absent parents and frequently changing maids and caretakers) and she was afraid of losing that and wanted to secure it.
I don’t think her offering herself naked to Serpico had anything to do with romantic attraction to him, she was rather using it as a bargaining chip to try and convince him to stay.(Stay with her and leave with her) Farnese is aware that she is hard to be around, she has scared off scores of people before, and she’s aware that she has since treated Serpico in less than kind ways, maybe because she wanted to test if he too, like everyone else would eventually leave.
But now that he hasn’t, she realises she doesn’t want him to. And she wants to give him an incentive to stay. Offering sex is her way of saying “here, this has something in it for you too.”
She’s using it as currency and it takes her a significant swallowing of pride in order to do so. So having Serpico reject her point blanc is a huge blow to both her desire of finally being free of her current lifestyle as well as the sense of power she had temporarily felt at the prospect of being able to secure him by using something that was hers to give.
I am not sure how far you are currently into the manga so I don’t want to talk about future events but let me know if there’s any other part which you’d like me to talk about with respect to Farnese specifically?
But I always read Farnese’s feelings towards serpico as dependence and affection but not as attraction. I feel what she draws from Serpico has almost always been comfort and security and she herself doesn’t necessarily want more from him but was willing to indulge in more if it allowed here to secure the comfort she derived from him.
Of course it is possible that now that her relying on Serpico for security has lessened to an extent, her feelings could morph but the current narrative has her pretty occupied with other relationships- Guts, Roderick, Casca and as of now I don’t think her feelings for Serpico have been given a chance to morph Except for the fact that her affection and concern is now manifested in more healthy ways .
Serpico though, is a whole different ballgame.
Serpico owes his identity to his relation to Farnese. It’s difficult to tell what his feelings are unless he himself spells it out for us and the one thing that is clear to us is that whatever his feelings for Farnese are- they are intense as hell.
In Serpico’s mind, his life is irrevocably entangled with Farnese’s. And he himself hasn’t quite let go of the childhood imagery they had of them both being damaged, twisted people who inevitable ended up twisting and entangling together.
And while he realises that Farnese has since grown, untwisted. He himself feels left alone and is trying his best to keep up but at the same time forcing himself to hold back and let Farnese take the decisions, she needs to take. Because once again Serpico’s self image is to do with being the provider of what Farnese needs. Serpico changes as Farnese’s requirements of him change. And yes I think your observations about Serpico’s lingering feelings is interesting because I don’t think it’s the knowledge of them being half-siblings that stopped Serpico in the woods when Farnese approached him ( they were already to self-confessed twisted for that to be that big a deal in the atmosphere that had been set up at that point) Rather I think it was the knowledge that this wasn’t what Farnese truly needed at that point which stopped him., he’d seen through her plot, he’d noticed her trembling and Serpico models his actions on Farnese’s wants we never even see his own. There is no doubt in my mind that if Farnese had ever truly wanted to start a sexual relationship with him, he would have obliged.
Would he have wanted to?
The Godhand knows.
Maybe.
I sure as hell don’t.
I’d actually really like to know your interpretation too, if you don’t mind. I haven’t had an opportunity to read a lot of Farnese- Serpico meta yet and would like to hear other views on it. 🙂
There’s nothing I can really add to be honest except my own headcanons and I’m not sure those count as meta but let me try.
A lot of Serpico’s commentary revolves around how Farnese has changed for the better but also about how he couldn’t help her.
Perhaps he hasn’t realized it (or has but hasn’t voiced it) but he had been unknowingly enabling her and her violent acts.
Serpico states many times that his desire is to keep Farnese safe (and by extension happy one would assume), the way he does this is by mostly following her orders and getting rid of obstacles that threaten her and he does without explaining his actions to her and sometimes without even telling her, Serpico hardly communicates with her directly (or perhaps doesn’t know how).
He never explains to her why he draws on duels. He never explains why he rejects her when she offers herself to him (assuming it was for the reasons you said before). When she asks him if he hates her he gives an ambiguous answer (which prompts her to slap him and reassure their relationship as master/servant). Whenever Farnese speaks of her feelings he never comforts her (at the beginning of their journey with Guts and when they go back to the Vandimion family for a while). Tries to kill Guts without her knowledge and remains weary of him for a long time.
You state before that Serpico’s identity depends on Farnese and perhaps it’s this co-dependency that might’ve lead Serpico to unknowingly enable her. She needs him for company and often violently reassures their master/servant relationship so that he will remain; he stays by her, reinforcing his own self-image as Farnese’s protector and of their lives being twisted together. He knows the things she does are wrong/unhealthy but never does anything about it.
Only when an external force (Guts) comes in and directly challenges everything Farnese knows is when she starts to change. And mind you, Serpico does try to get rid of him, why? Because he upsets Farnese and says as much. Serpico thinks he’s helping her by getting rid of any obstacles in Farnese’s way but he’s only been enabling her to continue on her destructive path. When they start traveling with Guts and Farnese messes up her duties, what is Serpico’s reaction? “I’ll take care of it”, he doesn’t allow her to overcome difficulties on her own until now.
I stated before that perhaps Serpico doesn’t know how to communicate with her in a healthy way; he still does show many times that he cares, but how is he supposed to approach her? How can he display brotherly affection, or any affection at all for that matter if he is just her servant? Or rather…he thinks she sees him as just a servant (I’d love to see what Farnese thinks of him now, she cares for him and isn’t as dependent anymore, perhaps she would even be happy to know that they’re siblings??)
I don’t think Serpico ever realized what he was doing. He loves her, he can’t say so directly so he can only express it through actions, actions that don’t always come across clearly and that aren’t/weren’t always as benefiting as he thinks.
mmmm…This is very nice.
Yes I agree with you it’s kind of like someone slipping a recovering addict suffering from withdrawal a tiny dose to try and help them.
@yesgabsstuff said: I think that Berserk’s
central conflict at least during the Golden Age is how you plan on
dealing with your shit? All of them (Casca included) minimize or reframe
what happened to them. Guts absolutely lashes out at others to deal
with his anger but they are impersonal others and it’s done in a, dare I
say, socially acceptable way so it doesn’t feel abusive. He isolates
himself. Casca throws herself into being hyper competent and into her
relationships so that she can keep a fear that would freeze her to the spot at bay. Griffith
has his dream and in case of emergencies, self destructive behavior.
That is of course until he decides to manage his helplessness by
actually becoming an abuser himself. Guts of course teeters on the edge
of this coping style too. It’s very interesting
I don’t really have anything to add to this but it’s basically perfect. I love your character insights so much. Like, damn, that bit about Guts lashing out but he (mostly) gets away with it because he’s a mercinary and later his war is with monsters. That’s so spot on and something I never would’ve thought of.
And now that you mention this about coping, it occurs to me that all the parallels he has to Griffith during the Black Swordsman arc that I noticed are in how they respectively respond to trauma. They both deny feelings of guilt, they both physically scratch themselves, they both suggest that a young dead soldier died happy, they both single-mindedly pursue a goal.
This is so interesting!
@yesgabsstuff said:
The poor man.
Seriously like he’s stuck in this hell of idealizing people that hurt
him. Even as an adult he’s not able to really see Gambino as both his
father and the person who was responsible for his rape. The Eclipse
always felt like a similar rape by proxy situation to me.
Totally, like… the way Miura writes as far as I can tell from interviews is that he doesn’t plan stuff out much, but as he goes he’s very good at recalling what he’s already written and picking up threads and using older material to enrich newer material. So while I don’t think Casca’s rape was planned from the beginning, I do think it might be purposeful that it mirrors Guts’ original trauma in that Gambino is Guts’ rapist by proxy, and Guts is Femto’s victim by proxy.
Which, disclaimer, I think is v misogynist bs and an immense disservice to Casca, but she 100% is there as a bridge between Griffith/Femto and Guts. Like if Femto’s laser stare at Guts isn’t enough then the Hound explicitly spelling it out by telling Guts to assault her to be closer to Griffith p much cinches it.
I feel like he does the same splitting
thing with Griffith after the speech. It’s very indicative of having
lived in an abusive, invalidating environment that he holds a monster
and man “who did his best” almost as two separate people in his memory.
Also, having to get up the next day as though his rape never happened is
pretty much the ultimate in invalidation. His survival as a child
certainly required him to have this idealized view of Gambino but it
takes a long time to grow out of that. He
does it to a less extreme extent with Casca too.
Oooh this is a great insight – the fact that Guts can’t reconcile the “dark” and “light” parts of a person also feels incredibly thematically relevant. In Griffith/Femto’s case they are literally almost separate people, and Guts draws a distinction between them, when, eg, he tells Rickert “that’s not the Griffith you knew.” But when it comes to Gambino, Guts is just unable to accept the fact that he betrayed him in such a horrific way. He denies it for years at first, and then when Gambino himself tells him that he sold him, it’s like he chooses to focus on the guilt of killing him and represses the fact of his betrayal.
With Griffith and the speech, it explains why, rather than realizing that the speech doesn’t invalidate the fact that Griffith still risked his life for him for no reason, it takes over his perception of Griffith to such a huge extent that he denies everything that belies it (eg do i need a reason, do you think i’m cruel, etc) as irrelevant, until it finally becomes impossible for him to dismiss all those moments. Guts is just not good at reconciling disparate parts of a person.
And with Casca it makes sense that he treats her current state as an aberration that needs to be fixed so she can return to being the person in his memories, and adds a layer to the ominous foreshadowing that he’s rushing her to ill effect when she’s dealing with the trauma in her own way on her own time.
I feel like I know Guts a little better now actually. Like, he’s still not bad at understanding people, but these are where his blind spots are.
And like Griffith
assuming he’s being abandoned because he’s “dirty” and fundamentally
unlovable? It’s both of their trauma reactions that caused all of this
to happen. (I’m not implying that any of what happened after he left was
Guts’ fault, just that his reaction triggered another.)
Ok now this is something I was actually thinking about earlier today when I was talking about how totally purposeful the gay subtext is. I didn’t go into it because it’s a weaker point and I’m not sure I have a full grasp on it, but this comment actually fills in a gap for me and makes this point more solid to me.
Because yes! Their respective traumas inform and deepen the meaning of both of their “breakups.” I’ve written an essay before on Griffith’s issues with feeling “dirty” and how that’s a direct line from Gennon to thinking Guts is walking away from him in disgust. And ofc the eclipse is a mirror of Guts’ initial trauma, Griffith is a parallel to Gambino particularly at the bitter end of his mortal life, and Guts’ inability to understand that the Hawks were his home and Griffith loved him is, like you were saying up above, the same type of thinking Guts used to deny that Gambino sold him, and probably started there.
So I don’t think it’s a huge stretch to suggest that part of the point of all the sexual trauma in these characters’ pasts is to inform some of their bad decisions in the present.
I mentioned the gay subtext and this is a little beside the actual point, but the fact that Miura heaped it on and verbally suggested it when they meet, both characters have sexual trauma, and everything bad happens because they misunderstand each other due to, one can make a solid argument for, that trauma and split up… well it seems like a pretty good depiction of how trauma can fuck up your life and future potential relationships.
I mean at its core Berserk is a story about reacting to trauma. It’s right there in the title. So it never feels irrelevant to tie things back to it imo.
Time to finally lay out my thoughts on these parallels and contrasts between Gambino, Griffith and Femto/NeoGriff.
Ok so starting with Human Golden Age 100% Certified Organic Griffith, even tho the parallels start off strong in the Black Swordsman arc, whatever, we’ll go chronologically.
Griffith is everything Gambino never was, but that Guts needed him to be. Dude has daddy issues, let’s be real here, and Griffith was a bigger, better, brighter Gambino who actually loved him. Who risked his life to save him and didn’t even have a reason. To Gambino he was p much only worth the money he brought in, but to Griffith he was worth risking his life for, for no reason or reward at all. Griffith in turn is similar to Gambino in that he’s a mercinary leader with a hold over Guts, but he’s otherwise superior in every way. More noble than Gambino in that he’s driven by ideals rather than money, has greater ambitions, greater skill, better manners, better morals, etc.
He was another person Guts respected, admired, and looked up to, and another person who Guts desperately wanted to have look at him, with some v explicit comparisons drawn by the manga:
After the Zodd debacle but before the Promrose Hall speech is a period of just about limitless potential for them. Guts accepts that Griffith loves him, or at least feels some kind of strong emotions for him – he recognizes the significance of the words “for your sake” here – and returns the sentiment by pledging his sword to him.
I don’t know if this is the answer I was searching for or not… but for now… For now I’ll wield my sword. For his sake.
Look at that – recalling the night he killed Gambino just before he pledges his sword to Griffith. Replacing one man with a new, vastly improved version.
This is also why the Promrose Hall speech hits him so hard, imo. Because for a brief period here Guts knew some extent of Griffith’s feelings, and the speech ripped that knowledge away and made him feel insignificant in Griffith’s eyes. We the audience know perfectly well that Griffith is head over heels regardless of the speech, but all Guts knows is he isn’t seen as Griffith’s friend/equal and he desperately wants to be. Because he needs him to be that better version of Gambino who actually loves him, not Gambino all over again.
Of course unlike Gambino, Guts’ perception of Griffith is based on a misconception, likely fueled and heightened by his own issues. Guts doesn’t get to see Griffith crash and burn when he leaves and then contemplate how brightly he shines within him, even compared to his castle, but we do.
Anyway so Guts inadvertantly breaks everything, fast forward a year and Griffith, like Gambino was for a time, is now disabled and dependant and really fucked up about it. Like Gambino he blames Guts, though unlike Gambino he still loves and almost immediately forgives Guts, and also unlike Gambino Griffith’s state actually is in part because of Guts (ofc you can’t blame Guts for Griffith’s own shitty decision-making, but you also can’t dismiss the fact that Guts leaving without explanation caused Griffith to have a breakdown lol). And, finally, like Gambino, this culminates in lashing out at Guts.
Gambino irrationally blames Guts for the death of his lover and all his bad luck since, Griffith blames Guts for making him fall in love with him (”only you made me forget my dream.”). Very different reasons, very similar result.
Now, and this isn’t a direct parallel imo but it’s one that I feel may be somewhat suggested, Guts blames himself for both Gambino’s death, and Griffith’s “death.”
Gambino was a terrible person who Guts killed accidentally in self defense, and he still has serious guilt issues because of it. When he has a flashback his panicky explanation to Casca ends with him crying and saying, “I’m sorry Gambino. Father…” Guts acknowledges and understands that Gambino betrayed him but that doesn’t make his feelings about him simple, and it doesn’t lessen his guilt.
I think this is also a large part of the reason Guts takes ages to stop hacking at Femto’s egg and trying to save Griffith after “I sacrifice.” Because he does blame himself. And even after he admits to himself that Griffith did betray him, this is how he looks back before leaving and fighting more monsters:
Anyway this brings me to Femto I guess.
In a way the Black Swordsman arc is a version of Guts’ missing years between Gambino and the Hawks: cursed and a bad omen, but now very literally because he draws evil spirits who kill people who get too close. “You should have died eleven years ago beneath your mother’s corpse!” = you should’ve died when you were sacrificed during the Eclipse.
Routine fighting to survive vs literally fighting every night to survive thanks to the brand.
Continuing on after killing Gambino vs continuing on after Griffith becomes Femto, with hints of survivor’s guilt all around, and strong visual comparisons:
But the real parallels are in how he responds to Femto.
Guts still craves acknowledgement.
His first reaction isn’t raaaagh I’ll kill you, that’s what he does after Femto dismisses him to focus on the issue at hand. His first reaction is hurt followed by, straight up, a need to be acknowledged. This scene starts with Guts basically fighting for attention, powering through his attack on Femto while the rest of the Godhand cheers him on until Femto knocks him into a wall and they move on to the Count’s backstory. Void even tries to get them back on track and then has his ‘…okay ANYWAY’ moment lmao (Enough of the sideshow.)
Same thing happens when he meets NeoGriff for the first time. His initial reaction isn’t to swing his sword at him, it’s to let Rickert hold him back while he pleads for him to acknowledge his betrayal (which, as this post points out, is similar to his morning confrontation with Gambino).
In fact, there’s a pretty interesting contrast drawn just in the Gambino
chapters – when Gambino lashes out and gives him the scar on the bridge
of Guts’ nose, he admits he might’ve been a dick and gives Guts
medicine for it. “Perhaps it was for no other reason than to soothe his
guilty conscience.” When Gambino sells him to Donovan, he doesn’t even acknowledge what he did let alone regret it, and even throws it in Guts’ face to hurt him a couple years later.
But this comes back after Guts’ flashback.
Despite just violently reliving the worst thing Gambino did to him, the last thing he thinks of is his seemingly contradictory mild kindness.
NeoGriffith never gives him the regret he wants him to feel either. But despite that:
My point is that Guts’ feelings are just as complex towards Femto/NeoGriffith as they are towards Gambino. He feels betrayal and rage, but also inadequacy, guilt, and a continuing desire to be looked at and acknowledged. He’s still driven by a v basic need to make Gambino proud – it transferred to Griffith during the Golden Age, and now it’s still there, complicating his hatred.
Which ties into the larger themes of Berserk, the good and evil in the heart of humanity. Gambino demonstrates this subtly – he’s a dick who shows just enough complexity and v mild compassion for Guts to crave more kindness from him. He’s very human in a very negative way. Griffith is the larger-than-life fantasy equivalent, who starts out as a positive version of Gambino – loves and is interested in Guts, behaves selflessly for him, is admirable in a fantasy-hero kind of way, etc – and literally transforms into a personification of evil, becoming a more heightened version of all the negative humanity in Gambino.
Was I the only one who thought they might actually kiss in this scene the First time you ever saw/ read it? Because I did . I was ready to react. I was about to go on all those sites and say. “ YOU THOUGHT YOU COULD FOOL ME INTO THINKING THIS WAS NOT GAY. I WAS NOT FOOLED. I ALWAYS KNEW!! “
But it never happened.
And I was like “oh” as I calmly shut the page I’d just opened to rant and go nuts on.
So, I thought Griffith would go for a kiss after taking Guts’ face in his hand and saying he belonged to him forever and ever. This scene also is a good place for it.
If this were a man and a woman everyone and their mother would be making gif sets of this and saying how they were so close to kissing after having the “what is this relationship” talk only to be interrupted by the plot. They would be doing this even if they never verbally said their feelings and everyone would accept it as a fact because straight people.
i never thought they’d kiss because I never expect anything I really want to happen lol. but like, this scene is as romantic as you can get without a kiss. if one of them was a woman people would call you delusional for suggesting their feelings are platonic lmao, like:
gentle breeze wafting griffith’s long hair across his face? check declaration of feelings while looking away followed by a turn and hard eye contact? check awkward, surprised response? check inconvenient interruption? checkmate
going back to the manga but you cannot look at these panels and then tell me with a straight face that we’re supposed to think their feelings are brotherly or whatever:
and yk what while i’m on this and since yesgabsstuff brought up the duel, you don’t have your characters ask each other if they’re gay, fail to confirm or deny, and say things like, “if you win you can have my sword or my ass,” if you’re not trying to point the audience in a certain direction.
it’s subtext, but it’s like, Merry Christmas Mr Lawrence style subtext, where it’s not just a nice bonus if u recognize the symbolism or the gay audience reaching bc we’re desperate, but it’s the clear intended reading.
In fact, I’ll go one further – the very first parallel we have for Guts and Griffith, the first example we’re given to contextualize the mysterious, intense relationship between Guts and Griffith/Femto and the nature of the sacrifice – which we already know is what happened between them – is the Count and his wife. “The person you loved the most and hated the most!” Cue that shot of Femto looking slightly over his shoulder so there can be no doubt who also buried his fragile human heart.
(like i just re-read this scene and i love it so much because everything leading up to these panels exists to make the audience go “what the fuck is their deal?” like puck even directly asks “what happened between those two?” And then we get the Count’s story and it’s like, ohhh ok i guess they were in love at one point and then betrayal and despair followed and now one’s a demon and one’s really pissed off. gotcha. And then nothing in the golden age disabuses you of that notion.)
(ps “That’s right… you couldn’t do it. You couldn’t cut away half of yourself.” The Godhand to the Count. “[…]And that unkingly half of yours shall all be gathered then in that place.” Skull Knight to Guts.)
re-reading black swordsman stuff for my gambino/griffith comparison post and i just want to point this out with visuals this time. the sheer number of guts/griff parallels during this arc is ridic but this is my fave.
There’s definitely some moments between Farnese and Serpico which personally appear to me as echoes of golden age dynamics between Guts and Griffith, the wording in some cases seeming similar enough to almost seem like an intentional parallel.
But the parallels are also not extremely consistent ,especially in the frequent exchanging of the respective roles within the dynamic between Farnese and Serpico. In some cases it’s almost more of a twisting around of the original than a parallel. Taking into account that despite the similarities that I will go into in a moment, these are four very distinct characters.
The instance which immediately comes to mind when you say parallel is the instance when Farnese asks Serpico if he hates her. It’s very similar to Griffth’s- “You must think me vile.” moment.
There’s some other Farnese- Griffith parallels.
1. Using Control over specific people to deal with their feelings of loneliness or helplessness. Referring to Serpico/ Guts as property is a big part of this ,as is the fact that despite saying it neither of them actually mean it.
2. Farnese/Griffith starting as the commander, owner.
3.Self-flagellation
4. Guts love.
5.There’s actually some deeper things which I will come back to most probably.
6. A slight similarity in visual design.
7. Oh and them being turned on by very fucked up things and having some rather strange interpretations of sexuality and ending up in bizarre sexual situations.
the Guts-Serpico parallels come from them both being the concerned right hand men to these slightly volatile people.
there’s Griffith and Serpico parallels in this sort of veiled intensity and ruthlessness behind a calm facade. not to mention similar fighting styles.
And the fact that both of them are very single mindedly focussed on their goals which if interfered with make them prone to homicide. With Griffth it was the castle ( or so he thought) with serpico it’s protecting Farnese (or so he thinks)
and the Guts and Farnese parallel in that both of them start with being unsure of what their place is in the world and start to try the road to discovering themselves .
With Farnese/Griffith parallels I could also see a potential argument that they both rely on extreme adherence to a conviction as a defense mechanism. With Farnese it was her religion, with Griffith it’s his dream. I wonder if seeing the origins of how Farnese found her conviction could actually shed light on how Griffith came to hold the dream above all else tbh. yk, fear and wanting to become what’s feared. but that’s just un-backed-up speculation.
(also for point 7: what “very fucked up things” are you referring to that turn Griffith on? is that more of a Femto reference or am I completely forgetting something?)
Actually that Farnese/ Griffith parallel makes perfect sense. It seems very fitting and plausible.
Oh yeah,regarding point 7, I think I discussed this with someone before and came to the conclusion that it could be a very subjective interpretation I made of a certain translation of the manga and at this point I don’t remember if it was the Darkhorse translation or another one but the conclusion hit me so hard at the time- it kind of stuck.
It’s actually during the Golden age arc, during the Griffith-Charlotte scene, in the version I read Griffith asks Charlotte if she’s scared and when she doesn’t reply verbally he says- “Sad things…scary things…if these things can arouse you then-” and trails off in true Griffith fashion.
but of course he’s saying it with that distracted stare which Griffith uses when he’s actually talking to himself .
And idk really, my first reaction was- okay that’s…ouch.
And I later thought about it and realised it might not necessarily be the right interpretation. But it was warped enough to be an idea i forgot to let go of.
And then when we’re talking about Grifith and sex, it’s hard not to touch upon the Gennon angle. And it’s not that I think Griffith was in any was aroused by that interaction, I just think that from what we know that was most probably Griffith’s first sexual experience and somehow the connection between fear, unpleasantness, sorrow and sexuality may have been made then and stuck.
It would explain the nature of Griffith’s later sexual encounters a little too. The fact that he sees these things as innately linked. And sex for Griffith is intrinsically associated with otherwise unpleasant emotions.
The first experience colouring future interactions aspect is brought up with Guts as well , with him choking Casca as they made love.
There’s actually also a connection I feel between sex and vulnerability, giving up or letting go . Any sort of extreme emotional ‘leak’ has always been followed up with a sexual encounter in Griffith’s narrative. Whether it was the death of the boy soldier, Guts leaving then the ultimate emotional out pour of the eclipse.
ooooh, yk even if that is based on a mistranslation (bc yeah the dark horse version is just ‘cast all those sad and frightening things into the fire’ p much) it totally integrates into both berserk’s take on sexuality and internal darkness and it really does fit griffith as a character.
it could basically function the same way as the actual translation, ie as a description of emotional denial, except where ‘cast them into the fire’ suggests burying feelings and ignoring them, your take suggests taking those negative feelings and transforming them into something useful. which is so eclipse.
so like even if that’s relegated to headcanon, I love it and imo it really works.
@dreadlox-o3o said: It bothers me a bit, that not so much
thought was considered into this Theory, and the portrayal of light and
dark may not be simplistic they are made pretty clear through the
characters and their journey, ya know what I mean?
I’m actually not sure what you mean tbh, sorry. Do you mean that Guts being the Hawk of Light and Griffith being the Hawk of Darkness isn’t as simple as I suggested? Totally elaborate if you want, I’m curious, and sorry if I’m misunderstanding.
Just to clarify my thoughts a bit, to me part of the appeal of Berserk is that it doesn’t really seem like a Good vs Evil story, and I think the idea of Griffith encompassing both light and dark is more interesting. He’s the dark hawk who’s the master of “sinful black sheep” (apostles probs) and “white sheep” (people who choose to live in falconia under his protection, i assume) but also the white hawk who saves the world and grants humanity’s deepest desires (basically letting their subconscious roam free in the form of fantasy creatures).
Like whether a character would call him the hawk of darkness or light depends on which side they’re on, imo. Plus it gives the story more the feel of a fate (Griffith) vs free will (Guts) conflict. While if Guts was the Hawk of Light and Griffith was the Hawk of Darkness I think it would feel more like a fated/prophecized good vs evil conflict, which is just less interesting to me.
dang i totally forgot that the forshadowing was laid out so explicitly like this
kinda rubbing my hands together gleefully rn. “what will she do” not how will she act or what will she think or feel, but what will she do?
(ngl tho this coming right after another showing of the moonlight kid makes me a little concerned that casca’s gonna do something in a rage but he’ll show up and soothe her spirit with maternal feelings or smthn like it keeps chilling guts’ inner beast out. OR maybe she’ll sacrifice it! holy shit i think i just discovered my ideal next volume! yk maybe lead the audience into thinking she’ll sacrifice farnese but surprise, moonlight kid was the soul of her own child and he’s a goner but farnese is gonna live forever. haha yes i just solved the puzzle of how to turn casca into an apostle without losing farny.)
actually nvm isidro, i think out of all recurring characters moonlight kid might be my least fave. he shows up, acts mysterious and overly cute, saves guts’ ass over and over, and teases the idea of family (total personal opinion here but i hate when protags have children and bond with them. no idea why, just gives me hives. my desire to see my faves as loving parents is in the negatives.)
like demon fetus was a way of giving a protagonist a child that i approve of – fucked up weird monster thing that creeps guts out and then gets eaten by a talking egg, cool. nhf it being replaced by this ridiculously cutesy precocious magical kid.
ofc i’ll happily revise this opinion if we learn more and it turns out he’s a red herring after all or a precursor to tragedy or hell i’ll even accept him being the magic soul of guts and casca’s demon fetus if it’s proof that griffith’s feelings are all his own. but til then i’m when he shows up.
Well, as for Farnese and Casca I do like their relationship and in theory those two are perfectly suited for each other (if we want to analyse their characterizations, but I also think they’re hot together even without complicate reasoning 😂 ). But… I generally feel involved with things that have more background. Farnese somehow showed interest in Guts, that is NOT LOVE obviously and that still perplexes me. I don’t particularly like love triangles and thier pallid imitations just because the plot needs more “spicy things”. The thought of Farnese and Guts doesn’t make sense and is also undermining for Farnese’s growth. Guts is a symbol, a sparkle that Farnese needed in order to break free from her old life. He can’t be anything more, but still, in one of the latest chapters, Farnese got angry at Casca because of Guts’ “man pain” for her. I don’t get this, just like I don’t get Roderick’s permanence. As for Serpico, I agree that he’s really dependant on Farnese, but they grew up like that, like plants in the dark intertwining each other in their desperate seek for light. Serpico had the only purpose of protecting Farnese, because he didn’t knew anything else. Lately he’s showing more emotions and his journey with Guts’ party is giving him a life filled with new experiences. So… I guess he’s changing too, even if we don’t see clearly what he feels (Farnese’s growing process is central right now so it gets a much detailed description). I don’t know, I’m probably biased because I love Farnese and Serpico together in all their creepiness 😂 This leads me to the second main point… I love Griffith’s side a lot too, but Guts’ quest is getting duller and some plot points don’t really make sense to me. Random characters popping out, pirates, sirens, useless brothers, useless and excessive comedy… So, what I’d like to see? Roderick and Magnifico vanishing into thin air, Casca regaining her sanity, but choosing to be free, thus separating herself from the group, maybe with Farnese and Serpico. Guts needs to master his power, so Shierke is fundamental (I like her tbh). I also want a time skip due to the influx of Elfhem. I wonder if Griffith is still subjected to the aging process and if he can have “normal” children. I want his wedding with charlotte also… I really want SOMETHING to happen, just like you also said.
I’m late as always 😅! I found really interesting the parallel you mentioned between casca’s devotion for Griffith and Farnese’s relationship with Guts. I’ve never really thought about it and what you said makes perfectly sense. Farnese remarked with her own words that she doesn’t actually love Guts, but her reaction with Casca somehow irritated me because it was unexpected and also not so plausible. Thanks to your addition I remembered Casca’s ambiguity and conflicted feelings when she started to love Guts. She was stuck between Griffith’s unwavering admiration and a strong desire for Guts; these two states of mind occasionally jumped back and forth even in the same day! So I revaluated my opinion about Farnese. Guts is a turning point for her, he’s a light shining in the muddle of all her fears and it is completely understandable that she feels confused about the intensity and the true dimension of her attachment. This situation actually is very realistic. As for Sonia and Shierke, Sonia clearly said they are going to meet again in the future; also their situations are highly similar, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they were to join the same side at some point, being it Griffith’s or Guts’. If the hypothesis of a war between the god hand members comes true, it is even possible that Guts and Griffith would be together themselves, creating a brand new party. Well… I know this is an ideal situation, but I can’t stand Guts and Griffith hating each other forever (or at least Guts hating Griffith). Casca is the key to change the current balance of things, so I’d really like her being free to grow alone, without other people telling her how she SHOULD feel. I want women to be more independent and relevant, because at the moment we have few female characters and basically every one of them is devoted to a main male character.
Oop yeah the parallel was explicitly mentioned in the latest chapter, so sorry if i spoiled that bit for you. It’s pretty minor all things considered, but I also found it really eye-opening.
But god yeah Berserk and its female characters is not the greatest. I really like p much all of them personality-wise, but you’re right, like every single secondary female character is devoted to a dude and it sucks. You have to dig deep into the really minor characters to find women whose lives don’t revolve around men (like, freaking Anna lmao). Let’s all cross our fingers for Casca becoming an independent character soon (with bonus Farnese and Schierke growing out of their crushes if we’re even luckier). I mean ngl I’m kind of pessimistic on this point, but you never know.
Honestly I would love a sort of enemies-turned-allies-fighting-someone-worse plot. The way lines are blurring – honourable and tamed apostles, Sonia and Schierke’s brief but meaningful friendship, Guts teaming up with apostles to fight Ganeshka, Guts’ own inner demon, etc – I’m almost thinking Griffith’s posse and Guts’ posse are more likely to join up at some point than destroy each other.
Actual reconciliation for me would really depend on what NeoGriffith even is. Like, if he’s Femto in a person suit, then I don’t really want it to happen. Miura might consider him morally ambiguous even after the eclipse but I’d have to personally draw a line at letting bygones be bygones if he’s still essentially Femto (give or take maybe a ~moment~ as one of them dies). But if he’s fundamentally changed once again and is more like, say, Griffith with all the good AND evil removed, leaving a weird serene husk, then I’d be rly interested.
There’s definitely some moments between Farnese and Serpico which personally appear to me as echoes of golden age dynamics between Guts and Griffith, the wording in some cases seeming similar enough to almost seem like an intentional parallel.
But the parallels are also not extremely consistent ,especially in the frequent exchanging of the respective roles within the dynamic between Farnese and Serpico. In some cases it’s almost more of a twisting around of the original than a parallel. Taking into account that despite the similarities that I will go into in a moment, these are four very distinct characters.
The instance which immediately comes to mind when you say parallel is the instance when Farnese asks Serpico if he hates her. It’s very similar to Griffth’s- “You must think me vile.” moment.
There’s some other Farnese- Griffith parallels.
1. Using Control over specific people to deal with their feelings of loneliness or helplessness. Referring to Serpico/ Guts as property is a big part of this ,as is the fact that despite saying it neither of them actually mean it.
2. Farnese/Griffith starting as the commander, owner.
3.Self-flagellation
4. Guts love.
5.There’s actually some deeper things which I will come back to most probably.
6. A slight similarity in visual design.
7. Oh and them being turned on by very fucked up things and having some rather strange interpretations of sexuality and ending up in bizarre sexual situations.
the Guts-Serpico parallels come from them both being the concerned right hand men to these slightly volatile people.
there’s Griffith and Serpico parallels in this sort of veiled intensity and ruthlessness behind a calm facade. not to mention similar fighting styles.
And the fact that both of them are very single mindedly focussed on their goals which if interfered with make them prone to homicide. With Griffth it was the castle ( or so he thought) with serpico it’s protecting Farnese (or so he thinks)
and the Guts and Farnese parallel in that both of them start with being unsure of what their place is in the world and start to try the road to discovering themselves .
With Farnese/Griffith parallels I could also see a potential argument that they both rely on extreme adherence to a conviction as a defense mechanism. With Farnese it was her religion, with Griffith it’s his dream. I wonder if seeing the origins of how Farnese found her conviction could actually shed light on how Griffith came to hold the dream above all else tbh. yk, fear and wanting to become what’s feared. but that’s just un-backed-up speculation.
(also for point 7: what “very fucked up things” are you referring to that turn Griffith on? is that more of a Femto reference or am I completely forgetting something?)
when he shows up.
you're the only one 