i feel like the fact that guts sees the band down there, including his pseudo girlfriend, dying horribly and turns away to continue trying to save griffith long after it’s too late should be a bigger thing, both in fandom and in canon

re-reading a few eclipse chapters and it feels so striking to me that casca is down there with judeau and the hawks facing an army of demons while guts is up there with griffith, neither sparing a thought for the other. it feels like a short, rougher and more intense version of casca leading the hawks as outlaws while griffith is being tortured and guts is off trying to become his equal.

except it comes after guts and casca have slept together and seem to be having a thing, which makes it very… stark in the way it completely doesn’t fit into a romantic narrative.

plus you’d think that while guts is bemoaning his own shittiness in abandoning casca for two years and comparing it to leaving griffith in the snow he could spare a thought for that time he left her to fight a hoarde of rapey monsters because he was wrapped up in futilely trying to help griffith.

Also ngl I completely forgot that Guts actually looks down and sees the Band being eaten alive with his own eyes before deciding his best course of action is to stay up there and try to save Griffith.

speaking of the eclipse, griffith is shown this to convince him to sacrifice everyone

and this is what guts thinks of when he’s reluctantly coming to accept that griffith just agreed to sacrifice them

Guts remembers Griffith’s willingness to do underhanded shit despite feeling guilty about it, and Griffith remembers Guts telling him to do whatever’s necessary.

and while I think Guts feels guilty for driving Griffith to the point of desperation by leaving him, I don’t think he ever realized the effect his words here had on him. That thread’s probably been dropped by now but man I’d love for him to somehow realize what Griffith’s reaction was.

chaoticgaygriffith:

mastermistressofdesire:

Boy that didn’t work out.

YEAH lol

But this really reminded me of something either bthump or you said (or maybe it was a convo between the two of you? Bad memory sorry) about Guts’ feelings towards Neo-Griffith being complicated bc he still sees old Griffith as a victim of what happened here & still bears (badly repressed) guilt for leaving him.

Yeah I remember we talked about it a bit here, and oh man ia this moment in the movie is so good and rly does get that sense that Griffith is a victim across.

Like idt Guts wanting to save him, even after the sacrifice, means he’s naive. When Guts finally stops hacking away at the egg after remembering Griffith talking about his dream, and thinks “is this what you wanted?” he looks like he’s had the wind taken out of his sails but this is how he pulls away to fight monsters:

and

He doesn’t condemn Griffith for choosing his dream over the Hawks. He doesn’t even look angry (except at the Godhand) – he just looks sad.

Like tbh I can see why Miura had to have Femto go above and beyond in a horrific way (not saying the rape is narratively justified, like torture or some brutal hands-on murder would’ve sufficed but he definitely had to do something cruel) because Guts straight up isn’t mad about the sacrifice, and I for sure think it’s because he feels largely responsible for driving Griffith to that point.

i was gonna post something that’s like, “anyone who thinks guts killing griffith and riding off into the sunset would be a happy ending needs to re-read chapter 4, because Berserk’s got something to say about the nature of revenge and it’s not subtle”

but in fairness one thing i actually really like and appreciate about berserk is that it’s not 100% anti revenge. i tend to hate narratives that are just like, revenge is bad, the end. i’m a fan of revenge lol.

guts killing donovan is not condemned. neither is griffith perfunctorily killing gennon after he’s already been defeated, neither is julius getting assassinated after trying to kill griffith (adonis is a different can of worms). even setting the queen on fire is depicted as badass and awesome, not overly fucked up. things start to get a little dicey when we get to guts slicing out a dude’s tongue before killing him, eg, and we get to see the horrified expressions of onlookers, but it’s not really condemned either – it’s dark, a little fucked up, but understandable, and the audience is probably meant to be torn between going ‘shit, dude’ and cheering him on.

what IS condemned is “living for revenge” or obsessing over the past to the detriment of your future. Guts’ revenge quest is condemned not because killing bad people who deliberately hurt you is Wrong, but because it’s actively fucking him up psychologically, harming his current salvageable relationships, preventing him from healing his own emotional wounds, forcing him to bury his vulnerabilities under a shell of darkness (the hound), and is basically a glorified years-long act of self harm.

and idk i appreciate the nuance. it’s like the best of both worlds – guts stalking around seeking revenge against griffith/femto is bad bc of the circumstances of what he’s doing and what he has to become to do it, so the final epic confrontation between them will probably be a lot more complex than guts killing him and riding off into the sunset. which is great. but it’s also great that in this story guts can kill his rapist by shooting him in the back and stabbing him through the mouth and the main reaction the audience is meant to have is “good for him.”

(incidentally this makes me wonder what the moral of the story would be if casca wakes up and ends up with the revenge torch passed to her. because i would really dislike it if she wanted revenge and got the same ‘living for revenge is bad’ message guts got, but at the same time all my good revenge examples are from the golden age and the moral of the revenge story has been pretty consistent since, so idk.)

mastermistressofdesire:

bthump:

While I’m looking for moments that demonstrate Guts’ attraction to Griffith I might as well post a few outtakes.

Like, what the fuck is this about?

I’m not including it bc Guts is wtfing at the behelit here, not (presumably) swooning over Griffith, but look at his collagen-injected lip, the forced contrast of his hair to shadowed skin, the shining eyes.

Like Griffith is supposed to be pretty, but Miura’s Golden Age art often makes certain images of him stand out as Extra compared to the rest in a scene, and when that image is from Guts’ point of view it’s a little eyebrow raising regardless of the context.

And it’s not just cause it’s a closeup either:

same scene, same distance from the ‘camera,’ same level of detail, v different vibe.

Nngh yeah.
This.

I kinda noticed a little bit of a trend of Griffith looking kinda softer from Guts POV shots.

Even in the ‘inferno’ panel or that time after Guts leaves when he’s thinking of him. (The mobile app won’t let me attach pictures rn)

His features look rounder, softer. His hair is always extremely stylised, eyes exceptionally bright( bordering on the 70’s sparkly eye shoujo image) and looking away from Guts and lips are always darker, prominent and idk how else to say this but…juicier?

You mean these panels?

bc ia. I’m going thru the golden age now looking for this stuff specifically lol and tbh I’m skipping a lot that could be coincidence (like the outtake above) but in general it rly does look like Griffith gets some extra glamour when Guts is looking at him. It’s a little hard to separate bc he’s supposed to be really pretty but like, there are several scenes where the notably prettiest image of him is from Guts’ point of view.

tbh I love the way this fight is structured so that Casca’s appearance on the scene gives me chills

Like you’re with Boscogne as the audience, wondering what the fuck Griffith’s plan is and how he hopes to win a fight against 30,000 men or whatever. Throughout the first half of the fight you’re going, okay what the fuck is going on, how is Griffith gonna capture this fortress???

The main force regroups with their backs to the river to put their lives on the line in a straightforward fight against a hopeless number of enemies, and Griffith’s like, ok but if we don’t die we’ll win, and you’re like, ….? doesn’t seem like a gr8 plan man.

And then bam suddenly it’s revealed that Casca’s the hinge on which Griffith’s plan turns, as she leads her troops in a surprise infiltration, and idk basically the way it cuts from the hopeless battle to Casca making it work is just rly delightful to me.

consider the following:

tbh this probably didn’t help guts’ feelings of inadequacy when he overheard griffith’s speech an hour later

irony: two dudes think of themselves as monstrous and unworthy of the other; become monsters because of it

While I’m looking for moments that demonstrate Guts’ attraction to Griffith I might as well post a few outtakes.

Like, what the fuck is this about?

I’m not including it bc Guts is wtfing at the behelit here, not (presumably) swooning over Griffith, but look at his collagen-injected lip, the forced contrast of his hair to shadowed skin, the shining eyes.

Like Griffith is supposed to be pretty, but Miura’s Golden Age art often makes certain images of him stand out as Extra compared to the rest in a scene, and when that image is from Guts’ point of view it’s a little eyebrow raising regardless of the context.

And it’s not just cause it’s a closeup either:

same scene, same distance from the ‘camera,’ same level of detail, v different vibe.

mastermistressofdesire:

Another thing which gets skipped over in all the animations.

Usually Griffith is shown just passively listening to the God hand as if he’s thinking about their offer and then Guts obliviously gets angry and screams at them.

Look at this panel though.
Look how fucking distressed Griffith looks. That isn’t a “wow, tell me more” face. He’s shaking. He’s terrified. He looks like He’s trying to protest their assertion that he’ll sacrifice everyone.

And THAT’S what pisses Guts of. It’s because Griffith can’t put his distress into words and has no way to verbally protest and Guts can see that.

He’s yelling on Griffith’s behalf .

Also which makes me think. Often I’ve read or maybe even said myself that if Griffith hadn’t been in the exact state he was at the start of the eclipse he may not have agreed to the terms. But EVEN in that state without manipulation he wasn’t up for it.

After that of course lol. What was fated happened and all. And everything got fucked. But I still go back to teeny details to hurt my heart.

I love this so much.

One of my favourite things about the Golden Age is that there’s such a sense that the tragedy is a house of cards that could’ve come tumbling down if anything happened differently. Of course, thanks to fate, everything worked out perfectly to lead to the sacrifice, but there’s so many missed opportunities, half-finished sentences, crossroads, coincidences, and little significant details that it always makes me think, what if X happened differently? Even up to the Eclipse.

What if Casca finished a sentence, what if the King hadn’t interrupted Guts and Griffith on the staircase, what if the maid hadn’t seen Griffith with Charlotte, what if Guts hadn’t let go of Griffith’s hand on the mountain of heads, what if Guts never told Griffith to do whatever he had to do for the sake of his dream so the Godhand couldn’t whip up that handy memory to convince him, etc etc.

Everything had to happen exactly right (or wrong) for Griffith to sacrifice Guts and the Band. That’s a big reason the moment is so narratively satisfying to me imo.

I’m re-reading some of the golden age for finding instances of Guts’ attraction to Griffith reasons but man the way the story is structured it still floors me how strong the focus is on Guts and Griffith’s feelings for each other.

Chapter 1, the very first event we get to contextualize the previous three years which we skipped, where the characters are now and how they’re getting along, is Guts charging into battle against orders and Casca being pissy about it so Miura can show us the dynamic: Guts is Griffith’s fave and everyone knows it, Casca is resentful.

That’s the important info we need to establish going into the story. I love it.

(plus the first sight of Guts and Griffith unhelmeted after 3 years is the two of them staring at each other but the way it’s shown it’s more a part of the aforementioned ‘instances of guts’ attraction,’ coming soon)

My feelings here were :/

mastermistressofdesire:

The background reactions are so pointless to me except as like, an additional reminder that Casca has a crush on Griffith.

I actually kind of wonder if like, idk, Miura was trying to tease the possibility here bc of Guts’ whole trying-to-be-a-good-bro-and-set-them-up thing? But that doesn’t really make sense to me bc that assumes the reader is an idiot who doesn’t know Griffith’s dedicated to his marry Charlotte plan and also in love with Guts, and one thing I’ll grant Miura as a writer is that he doesn’t treat his audience like idiots.

Like when Judeau spells Griffith’s practical need to marry the princess out to Guts a little later it shouldn’t come as a shock to the audience.

So idk maybe their slightly scandalized expressions are just a little joke at Casca’s expense.

But w/e aside from that one thing I do rly like about this scene is that Griffith’s compliment comes straight from Guts lol.

It’s kind of touching when you remove the possibility of het undertones and look at it as Guts’ influence helping Griffith come down to earth a little. It’s a nice full-circle moment starting from Guts thinking Griffith keeping the Hawks in the dark regarding his faking-his-death plan is “a little cruel” (something that doesn’t seem to occur to Griffith as an issue) and concluding with Guts and Griffith’s casual friendly interactions helping Griffith make up for it a little.

i usually think abt guts love for griffith bc its so ignored, but ngl griffiths love for guts is super interesting too, bc its often reduced down to possessiveness/him being evil?idk love them

Man ia Guts’ love for Griffith is ignored way too much, but also yeah reducing Griffith’s love for Guts down to ~evil possessiveness~ is one of my pet peeves.

imo he’s possessive because he’s stunted emotionally (like most of Berserk’s cast lol), but that doesn’t mean he only loves Guts as an asset, it means he has v little ability to recognize and compartmentalize his emotions so he responds to extreme feelings generally pretty badly.

Like Guts is compared to Griffith’s dream a lot which to me is saying that when Griffith fell in love with Guts he’d never felt so strongly about anything else, other than his dream. (”I want you, Guts.” “Griffith’s never said a thing like that… not to anybody!”) And because his whole raison d’etre is seizing his dream, now that something else makes him feel the same amount of need and desire, he “must obtain” him. He has no other frame of reference for what he’s feeling lol.

But in actual action he’s not controlling. Guts does whatever the fuck he wants in battle and Griffith plans around it, eg. Griffith asks Guts to help him out with his assassinations, which the narrative specifically draws attention to, and Guts is the one who wants it to be an order. Griffith risks his life and dream for Guts multiple times and can never explain why. Griffith, according to Casca, doesn’t control Guts enough as a leader. Griffith self-consciously asks Guts if he thinks he’s cruel for asking him (or maybe ordering him after Guts’ response to Griffith phrasing it as a question for the first assassination) to help him with the bonfire assassinations. Griffith’s whole speech about friendship is about desiring an equal who he doesn’t own, and can’t control, and his monologue in the torture chamber is about realizing that Guts was that person.

I really love Griffith’s inner monologue during the second duel because it’s such a powerful emotional breakdown imo, and it feels so childish to me. It seems like he’s falling back on “you can’t leave, I own you” because he has nothing else, no other way to respond to the thought of being abandoned, no other way to contextualize what he’s feeling. He’s clinging to a sense of ownership bc it’s the only part of his relationship to/feelings for Guts he really understands, and it’s a defense against the uncontrollable messiness of his feelings – a way to repress his love and need and feelings of rejection and loss and self-loathing, and a way to repress his realization of “when did someone I was supposed to have in hand… instead gain such a strong hold over me?” – that ultimately fails.

It just feels so consistent with the childish aspects of Griffith’s character, and the part of him that represses his emotions until they seep out in horrifying ways (eg self harm, risky sex, thinking it’s better to risk killing Guts than to let him “reject” him, etc).

Idk basically I like Griffith’s possessiveness because it’s a flaw that rears its ugly head to fuck up his relationship with Guts, and is actually entirely counter-productive to the relationship he genuinely wants with Guts (equality). But it’s nowhere close to the be-all end-all of his feelings for him.

yk i think about this scene when i think about why griffith would’ve fallen for guts, bc i tend to think that at least part of the reason is that guts treats him like a person, rather than as a beacon of hope or portent of doom lol. which is exemplified when he dumps a bucket of water on his head.

but man how about why guts fell for griffith? guts, who never got to be a kid, who was trained as a mercenary since like age 4, never had any friends growing up, no one around his own age. he’s never played with friends before. like this is probably the first time he’s ever had fun with someone his own age.

If Griffith wanted someone to treat him as a person(/equal), well, that’s also what Guts wants, just from the opposite side. Griffith gets too much regard, positive and negative, and Guts doesn’t get enough, positive or negative.

Like sure this scene ends with Griffith talking about becoming a king and Guts looking up at him, blinded by the sun, but the potential is right here.

Maybe this sound weird but what do you think of the people who say “I love Griffith because he’s super evil >:)” ?? Like I get why people hate Griffith but I think those Griffith “fans” miss out the whole point..

I think I pretty much agree – idk if I’ve really seen Griffith fans like this myself, but yk I’m sure they’re around.

tbh I feel like a lot of villain fans do this to avoid The Discourse about the ~evils of woobifying~ etc and I understand that. Fandom is fucking weird about moral purity rn and treating fictional characters as if they’re real people, and it’s hard in a lot of fandoms to talk about liking a villain without constantly putting a “BTW I’M NOT APOLOGIZING FOR THEM THEY’RE VERY EVIL AND BAD I JUST ENJOY VILLAINS” disclaimer up every time. So I sympathize w/ that urge. Fandom makes it hard to just enjoy characters without holding them up as either pure as the driven snow or irredeemably evil from birth.

But if they’re genuine about loving Griffith entirely because he’s oh so evil, then of all the antagonists to love Griffith makes v little sense to me bc before he becomes a demon he’s like… fine. He’s not a great person but he’s not a bad person, he has noble intentions, flaws and virtues, he’s a v good well-rounded character. I know a lot of people think Griffith was moustache-twirling evil all along but yk, they’re objectively wrong so lol.

Then after he becomes a demon he’s a petty evil dick for all of two appearances, one of which is a gratuitously depicted, grimdark-drama-for-the-sake-of-drama rape scene, and if that scene is what makes you love Griffith/Femto I’m definitely like gonna side-eye you. And I mean I don’t see anything wrong with liking Femto – I like Femto lol bc his pettiness mixed with inability to kill Guts is extremely amusing to me, plus his makeup is on point (and I love all gnc villains out of spite), but it’s very much despite the rape, not because of it.

And then as NeoGriff he comes back seemingly neutral, fulfilling the subconscious desires of humanity and committing no great acts of evil again. So yeah if you like super evil dark villains Griffith/Femto/NeoGriff is an odd choice to me.

Oh and as an aside I could kind of get liking him for his evil villainry if you liked him as Griffith and then felt personally betrayed when he sacrificed everyone. Like that was gr8 writing and feeling rly pissed off and then impressed by how mad you are, making you like him as a character bc of the emotional ride he took you on, makes sense to me. But I feel like that’s not really what you’re referring to.

So I guess tl;dr my answer boils down to it sounds p silly to me but I guess it depends on their exact reasons lol.

chaoticgaygriffith:

bthump:

chaoticgaygriffith:

Guts leaves because Griffith can’t express how he feels. Griffith has sex with Charlotte in an attempt to seize his dream, having lost Guts, (of course this act of striving for his dream is represented by heterosexual sex) and ends up trapped in a dungeon.

@bthump Didn’t wanna do this on your post but this part caught my eyes … To be honest I’ve never thought of Griffith having sex with Charlotte as him trying to quickly seize his dream because, surely he must have known what the consequences would be? He didn’t do a good job sneaking in or sneaking out, he didn’t even try to make sure they’re not caught together. Had he impregnated her he probably would have had to marry her, but the king would still hate his guts, which goes against what he was initially trying to do, that is, charm his way into the royal family. When he was caught, he didn’t seem particularly perturbed. It almost seemed like an act of defiance because he got discovered so easily and didn’t even care. That led me to believe that the sex with Charlotte was more an act of self-harm and self-sabotage than anything else. Thoughts?

Oh yeah my thoughts on Griffith sleeping with Charlotte are that it’s way more complex than I went into here. But I do think that Griffith’s like, conscious intention is pursuing his dream. I definitely think he’s subconsciously self-sabotaging, but I think a lot of his surface-level motivation is like, he cares about 2 things in the world: Guts and becoming king, and Guts just abandoned him, so he’s throwing himself into the other like he’s trying to prove it’s more important to him.

Tho btw I went into mainly the self-sabotage/self-harm aspect pretty in depth here if you’re interested. obvious warning for het applies but there aren’t any pics at least lol. though i didn’t even really say anything about Griffith’s behaviour, it’s mostly drawing parallels, so good points about how careless he is, and his non-reaction to getting caught.

Also I’ve never actually thought about the possibility of Griffith impregnating her actually tbh, that’s an interesting thought. Idk what would happen realistically in a medieval setting but I feel like it would make sense if they found out Charlotte was pregnant without knowing who (assuming she didn’t say it was Griffith) the King might theoretically be more willing to marry her off to anyone who’d keep quiet about it and raise the kid as his own, giving Griffith an in. So I could maybe see that being a possibility in his mind going in.

Tbh that does make a lot of sense. The reason my mind never quite went there, though, is because even though in that scene Griffith is in no state of mind to be strategising, the fact that having sex with the princess is a bad idea should be simple enough to occur even to someone who’s going through what he is. So my line of thought was less along the lines of, Guts left so he’s trying to quickly seize the other thing he cares about, and more like, Guts left so he’s throwing everything into the fire. Because, I get Griffith is pretty cool in a pinch, and probably, you know, didn’t want to give those guards the satisfaction of seeing him break down or whatever, but like I mentioned his reaction to getting caught was so ……… almost nonexistent. In a way, it looked like he’d given up. And of course that can be explained quite well in your scenario, but I just can’t help but feel like, even though everything is crumbling around him, his reaction to his last chance of achieving his dream being crushed right in front of him should have been a tad more explosive. (And as I’m typing this I keep thinking, but he cares about Guts more so now that he’s gone who the fuck gives a shit, but that keeps bringing me back to my original theory of him destroying everything while he’s on a roll.)

Though, having read your post on Heterosexuality as the Main Villain of Berserk, I can’t stop thinking about this one thing you said along the lines of, “sex with Charlotte represents his dream.” This is where I feel my theory falls apart because, you’re so right about that, and with that fact in my mind him having sex with Charlotte to ruin the prospects of achieving his dream seems contradictory. Just in a writing sense.

But yeah, I haven’t read the post you linked me to yet (I’m about to), so I’m super sorry if you’ve answered some of my questions there.

Nah I’m like, almost completely on board with you. I think the only way I might see it differently is that I see Griffith as like… very intellectually detached from his own emotions? He feels emotions very strongly but I don’t think he’s very capable of identifying them, maybe bc he’s so emotionally repressed. So I think he absolutely is directly sabotaging himself, he just wouldn’t think to frame his actions that way, and instead hides behind a veneer of “this totally makes sense as a thing I should be doing” to himself, even though it’s a clear lie that wouldn’t hold up to a second of self-examination.

I often see Griffith as operating under like, a duality of lying to himself to justify emotional outbursts, thinking one thing and feeling another. Like when he ripped up his arms in the river, I don’t think he was only lying to Casca, I think he genuinely believed that he didn’t feel guilt and was instead acting on pure logic lol, and he genuinely believed he was totally fine when he forced himself back under control and put a hand on Casca’s shoulder. Or like, when he saved Guts from Zodd, I don’t think he was thinking at all, and because he had no possible logical justification he just refused to think about it, or come up with any answer better than “um no reason.”

So like eg if instead of guards he’d run into Casca the next morning, a la the morning after Gennon, she could say something like, “holy shit are you so fucked up that Guts left that you’re trying to get yourself killed?” and Griffith’s response would be, “um no winning Charlotte’s affection is part of the path to my dream, I don’t care at all that Guts left, ~~the dead kid~~ Guts leaving right before this was just a coincidence obviously, I’m fine nbd.” But at this point his justification is so weak it’s more along the lines of his “no reason” to Guts.

So I think like, his non reaction to the guards, plus the way he goaded the king into whipping him shortly after, is because emotionally he’s past the point of despair and this is what he wanted to happen, even if he didn’t consciously recognize it.

Idk I guess I just can’t rly see him admitting to himself, at least not until later when he’s doing some soul searching in that dungeon, that fucking Charlotte is self-destruction I guess, even if that’s clearly what it is. It strikes me as too self aware and honest for him lol.

But like, idk this is basically just my headcanon lol, not rly meta or anything, and I kinda just took the opportunity you provided to talk about it. I don’t think there’s any objectively right answer bc there’s no real way to know what he’s thinking, and based on his behaviour it does make sense for him to be aware of the consequences and accepting of them. So your take also makes sense and is also less convoluted than mine. I’m just rly into Griffith’s ability to deny shit to himself lol.

mastermistressofdesire:

bthump:

yesgabsstuff:

bthump:

Well this originally started out as a jokey take on how compulsory heterosexuality is the True Villain of Berserk, but then I was like, shit this actually works surprisingly well and is kind of depressing. So now I’m doing it more seriously. This isn’t meant to be some grand unifying theory of Berserk lol, it’s not even close to airtight or anything, the story just happens to lend itself weirdly well to this particular reading.

So here’s how Griffith’s narrative works as an almost certainly accidental, yet imo somewhat relatable, metaphor for being closeted and repressed:

Keep reading

I always thought that it’s interesting that he seems to be on the precipice between childhood and adolescence (10/11) when he revived the Egg of the King in the first place.
Like you said, this is hardly a perfect metaphor but that would be around the time where he might start to notice that a) he had some kind of feelings for men b) be old enough to understand that they are not compatible with his goals/not accepted by the culture he lives it.

The situation for Guts, for example, is absolutely complicated by his experience as a CSA survivor in that I’m not sure he has a way to think of these kinds of things outside of acts of violence. The kind of implicit homophobia of this culture does nothing to dissuade him from this. Griffith has at least grown up in a similar environment and am;has probably “seen some shit”; if not suffered in a similar way by the time he has the Behelit, as well as his later experience with Gennon. What better pressure cooker to make someone utterly terrified of themselves and be willing to go to extreme lengths to repress those feelings?

I feel like there’s a really interesting character analysis waiting to happen w/ both Guts and Griffith and their relationships to same-sex desire (especially taking the official translation as a source, not one of the scanlations where Guts throws around homophobic slurs every other page. Which I mention bc those scanlations seem to be the reason a lot of Berserk fans think Guts is canonically a giant homophobe lmao).

It could be way more rooted in the actual text and authorial intention than this was bc the fact is that both Guts and Griff had non-consensual same-sex experiences at young ages that explicitly took a severe emotional toll on them, neither of them read as straight as far as I’m concerned, and you cannot tell me that it’s an accident that both of them were raped by men, they’re introduced to each other through Guts directly asking Griffith if he’s gay and wants to fuck him, and then the rest of the story is about their incredibly homoerotic relationship and how emotional repression ruins everything.

So anyway yeah you have some good points worth expanding on imo.

All of this was pretty damn excellent.

Thankyou for writing this.

I think the reading with being closeted is awfully fitting and tbh I feel that even if at age 20, Kentaro Miura wasn’t aware he was writing very gay-coded characters, after every single interviewer asked him about it and in the year 2017, he cannot still be unaware. And he’s made absolutely no tonal changes to accommodate for the fact? ( I think. Honestly i’ve been a little bummed out by the lack of griffguts feels in the most recent, post style- change chapters).

That’s just supposition though. Like I do feel that some of the inherent sexism has greatly improved over the years. And most of those issues which saw in Casca’s treatment have become slightly better with the newer characters. Just like giving credit where credit is due.

I mean it would be a greeeeat stretch to expect the same from the inherent homophobia. Like I don’t expect i AT ALL. But I think there may be at least some awareness about it.

But inspite of this the reading really makes sense.

Also you know -from how nightmarish that brief domestic dream felt, despite it seeming so superficially pleasant and ‘normal’. There was this deafening sense of -This in not you. This is not her. This is uncomfortable.

And actually for the longest time, I’d read a lot of theories about how the way Griffith saw Casca in his dream showed that he’d actually always viewed her as this hetero-normative, submissive, potential wife figure. But I don’t think so. I think the entire sequence was about how wrong it all felt. Inclusive of Casca.

It wasn’t a dream at all. I think it was always supposed to be a nightmare, his final attempt to revert from accepting his reality a la his undeniable love for Guts with what should have been the heteronormative ideal, and the knowledge that this wasn’t his reality which forced him back into a space where he had no option but acceptance.

And then being faced with the consequences he has had to face for that reality. His body, the broken arm.

And like there’s also the added fact that immediately post this realisation he attempts to commit suicide. which is sadly a pretty common consequence.

Oh nooo man I kind of glossed over a lot of stuff so that post is a bit disjointed and one of the things I glossed over was how the domestic nightmare vision actually fits into the whole narrative I plucked out beyond being disturbing and feeling relevant, but the way you have it framed here, as Griffith trying to deny his feelings for Guts and insinuate himself into the heternormative ideal (again: “this peace and quiet… isn’t so bad”), failing, and then trying to kill himself… ouch. That’s painful, but it works.

Especially with the fact that his godhand-summoning despair is brought on by Guts’ touch soon after.

also there’s at least one GriffGuts moment in recent chapters that I dug, even though it doesn’t tell us anything we didn’t already know, which was that while Farnese and Schierke are checking out Casca’s memory of the cave with Guts Farnese says straight up that she senses “jealousy…?” I mean sure we already knew that but it’s nice to reiterate it.

chaoticgaygriffith:

Guts leaves because Griffith can’t express how he feels. Griffith has sex with Charlotte in an attempt to seize his dream, having lost Guts, (of course this act of striving for his dream is represented by heterosexual sex) and ends up trapped in a dungeon.

@bthump Didn’t wanna do this on your post but this part caught my eyes … To be honest I’ve never thought of Griffith having sex with Charlotte as him trying to quickly seize his dream because, surely he must have known what the consequences would be? He didn’t do a good job sneaking in or sneaking out, he didn’t even try to make sure they’re not caught together. Had he impregnated her he probably would have had to marry her, but the king would still hate his guts, which goes against what he was initially trying to do, that is, charm his way into the royal family. When he was caught, he didn’t seem particularly perturbed. It almost seemed like an act of defiance because he got discovered so easily and didn’t even care. That led me to believe that the sex with Charlotte was more an act of self-harm and self-sabotage than anything else. Thoughts?

Oh yeah my thoughts on Griffith sleeping with Charlotte are that it’s way more complex than I went into here. But I do think that Griffith’s like, conscious intention is pursuing his dream. I definitely think he’s subconsciously self-sabotaging, but I think a lot of his surface-level motivation is like, he cares about 2 things in the world: Guts and becoming king, and Guts just abandoned him, so he’s throwing himself into the other like he’s trying to prove it’s more important to him.

Tho btw I went into mainly the self-sabotage/self-harm aspect pretty in depth here if you’re interested. obvious warning for het applies but there aren’t any pics at least lol. though i didn’t even really say anything about Griffith’s behaviour, it’s mostly drawing parallels, so good points about how careless he is, and his non-reaction to getting caught.

Also I’ve never actually thought about the possibility of Griffith impregnating her actually tbh, that’s an interesting thought. Idk what would happen realistically in a medieval setting but I feel like it would make sense if they found out Charlotte was pregnant without knowing who (assuming she didn’t say it was Griffith) the King might theoretically be more willing to marry her off to anyone who’d keep quiet about it and raise the kid as his own, giving Griffith an in. So I could maybe see that being a possibility in his mind going in.

Well this originally started out as a jokey take on how heterosexuality is the True Villain of Berserk, but then I was like, shit this actually works surprisingly well and is kind of depressing. So now I’m doing it more seriously. This isn’t meant to be some grand unifying theory of Berserk lol, it’s not even close to airtight or anything, the story just happens to lend itself weirdly well to this particular reading.

So here’s how Griffith’s narrative works as an almost certainly accidental, yet imo somewhat relatable, metaphor for being closeted and repressed:

The only way for him to realize his dream is to marry the princess. War, battles, glory, promotions, even the Eclipse, those are all stepping stones that enable him to one day marry Charlotte. Marriage is the only door to his dream. Even when he becomes saviour of the world, he’s still gotta marry a woman to make it official.

Griffith’s all-encompassing, all-important dream is embodied by heterosexual marriage.

Set up in perfect opposition to that dream, the only one who makes him forget about it, and the one he has to sacrifice to attain his dream, is Guts, the man he’s in love with.

So it should be pretty apparent how that central conflict lends itself to a closeted gay man torn between obligation and desire kinda reading, right?

The details don’t do much to counter it either. It’s Charlotte’s presence that creates the rift between Guts and Griffith – she’s there, refocusing Griffith’s attention from Guts to his heteronormative goal during their significant, romanticized staircase conversation when Guts asked why Griffith would risk his life for him and Griffith failed to give him a reason. And she’s the one Griffith directs the speech to, inadvertantly convincing Guts that he doesn’t care about him and making Guts decide to leave.

The dream is also defined by emotional repression. To achieve it Griffith has to project a perfect image of himself to everyone – the nobles, Charlotte, the hawks, everyone. When Casca catches him in a moment of vulnerability and watches him injure himself in a river he snaps out of it, represses, and acts like nothing happened afterwards. Guts is the only person he willingly allows to see him less than perfect – when he’s conducting assassinations, for instance. He opens up to him in emotional vulnerability when he asks “do you think I’m cruel?” In that moment, Guts suggests that Griffith’s emotional expression of vulnerability is incompatible with achieving his dream – “Ain’t this part of the path to your dream? You believe that, don’t you?”

Guts is able to walk away and abandon Griffith because Griffith can’t tell him how he feels, he can’t tell Guts why he risked his life for him and he can’t tell him that he wants him to stay. Casca even points out that they should stop and talk things out, and we the reader know that their rift is based entirely on a misunderstanding that could be cleared up so talking things through would actually achieve something – but she’s dismissed, and they duel instead.

So a dichotemy is set up between the dream/Charlotte/heteronormativity, and emotional repression vs Guts the man Griffith loves, and expressing his feelings for him.

The tragedy of Berserk is that repression wins.

Guts leaves because Griffith can’t express how he feels. Griffith has sex with Charlotte in an attempt to seize his dream, having lost Guts, (of course this act of striving for his dream is represented by heterosexual sex) and ends up trapped in a dungeon. There he both finally admits to himself that Guts is more important to him than his dream and fittingly loses the ability to communicate at all. He’s also, to top it off, locked away behind a mask modeled after the helmet he wore while pursuing his dream. After losing Guts and having sex with Charlotte he’s not just choosing not to express his emotions, he’s forced to remain silent and hidden.

After he’s rescued the mask stays on and words remain unspoken. A lot of shit happens and eventually he has a breakdown. And interestingly, it’s not just the prospect of Guts leaving again that causes him to finally break from reality. It’s also the thought of Casca staying.

After overhearing Guts and Casca he envisions himself chasing his dream again (and isn’t it fitting that it’s described as playing? ie not real, a make-believe expression of himself), and then he sees himself – and here it gets really depressing – seemingly married to Casca. He’s still helpless and unable to communicate, as though he’s caged inside of himself. In his vision Casca wears a dress, has hung up her sword, and is raising a son with him, named after the man Griffith is in love with. Griffith is dressed up and attractive again. It’s terribly picturesque in a idealistic heternormative way. Casca leans down to kiss him and then spoonfeeds him, all the while he’s silent and motionless and seems lost as all he thinks to himself is that the peace and quiet isn’t so bad.

Tbh if you’re reading Griffith as a gay man this dream comes across as a nightmarish metaphor for being trapped in repression, trapped in a heterosexual marriage and societal expectations, his voice, body, and even his own mind lost. It’s disturbing.

And in the soup made by Casca is the behelit.

The thing is that the behelit isn’t the escape from that nightmarish vision it seems to be at first – it’s an embodiment of it. What happens when Griffith summons the Godhand, sacrifices the Band and most notably Guts, and becomes a demon?

His heart is frozen. He’s later reborn with the sole purpose of becoming a wholly emotionless, utterly perfect image of himself – the image he’d tried to project as a human: a perfect saviour, a perfect leader, and a perfect fiancee, straight out of a fairytale. One half of a perfect heterosexual couple, ruling a perfect kingdom.

Femto’s new body incorporates the mask he was forced to wear in the torture chamber. The transformation doesn’t fix the problem caused by his broken body or his lost tongue, it doesn’t return his ability to express his feelings to him, it rips them out from the source – it destroys his emotions so he has nothing left to express. “This peace and quiet… isn’t so bad.”

When Griffith chose to sacrifice Guts he didn’t choose freedom or personal empowerment – he chose to remain a voiceless, tortured man in a locked cell, he just removed his ability to feel pain or long for more.

(Or tried to at least. Time will tell how his newly bthumping heart figures into everything.)

Disclaimer: I don’t think this works as like… a great, sensitive and thoughtful depiction of the effects of internalized homophobia on a gay man lol. Berserk is offensive and homophobic af and choosing to read it like this doesn’t fix that problem at all. I just kind of dodged some of the worse stuff but yk, there’s no way around the fact that griffith/femto/ngriff is a gay-coded antagonist and most of his villainy revolves around that coding.

Also I’m mostly closeted myself so there’s definitely some projection going on here. That’s partially the point of this. I don’t relate fully to this narrative but some aspects of what I wrote do hit home, and hopefully that comes across and this doesn’t feel exploitative.

@yesgabsstuff @mastermistressofdesire I’ve mentioned this essay b4 and I believe you’ve both expressed interest in a complete version so voila.

How do you think that guts’ new party would react if they knew he sexually assaulted casca?

I actually don’t know lol. It’s a tough question because I’m not sure how much Miura thinks we should condemn Guts for it – on one hand he’s getting consequences for his actions in the form of Casca hating him and I don’t think it’s likely that she’ll forgive and forget and everything will go swimmingly. On the other I think we’re supposed to feel like he should get a pat on the back for stopping, and we’re definitely not supposed to hate him for it, we’re probably more meant to empathize with him and his loss of control and his regret, and admire the steps he’s taken to protect her from himself by travelling with people, and his willpower in keeping the hound on a leash.

So I guess ideally I’d like their idealized and infatuated images of Guts to be shattered as they realize that he’s capable of some fucked up shit even without the armour. Farnese could get protective of Casca and take off with her and Serpico and whoever in the party wants to follow, quite possibly all of them, give or take Puck and Isidro. Because she’d definitely choose Casca over Guts and that would be nice to see.

But I think it’s more likely that some of them, like Farnese and Serpico, would maybe get a bit warier of him and he might lose some of his shine in Farnese’s eyes, but overall consider it a past mistake he’s overcome and atoned for, and just another signifier of how much of a struggle it is to be Guts akin to how they feel about how Guts + Berserker armour = trying to murder them all. Yk like it makes Serpico anxious but no one blames him for it even though it’s his own inability to control his rage that leads to the armour taking over without magical hand-holding to save everyone from him.

Idk that’s at my most cynical. Don’t get me wrong I love Guts and his narrative for the most part, I just think aspects of it and the magical fantasy metaphor of the Berserk armour, hound, etc aren’t handled as well as they could be lol.

Anyway it’d probably be something between those two extremes tbf.

mastermistressofdesire:

danz99:

ベルセルク

This is interesting though.
Since every major person in Guts life has at some point been ‘weak’ and in need of care which Guts has in reality always offered with enthusiasm.

Whether with Gambino, Shisu, Griffith or Casca

I seriously love this about Guts during the Black Swordsman and Conviction arcs, bc like, he is actually a natural caretaker and… yk offerer of comfort and help. It’s the very first act that defines him when he’s 3 years old and steps up to take Shizu’s hand. He genuinely has a pressing urge to help people in need, from overworked suicidal people to tortured ex bfs to parental figures to like, flowers.

And from the start Miura wasn’t trying to show a dude just letting his inner asshole shine through bc he’s had a bad time, he’s depicting a dude actively suppressing his own caring nature partly because anyone who gets close to him is probably going to die thanks to the brand, partly because it’s a distraction from his goal of revenge, and partly because he has some serious issues revolving around betrayal that got reawakened recently and he’s guarding his heart.

Like the second chapter when he decides whatever he’ll let this priest and this kid give him a ride and who gives a fuck what happens to them feels like a deliberate attempt on his part to Not Care About Them that totally fails.

And it’s why it’s so fitting that the very last thing he does in the Black Swordsman arc is instinctively save Theresia even after telling her to kill herself, and then cry about the fact that he just ruined this kid’s life and turned her into a proto-him.

Ooh actually to take that a step further, the hound is basically something he actively created himself, out of the darkest parts of his nature, as a form of self-protection. So it’s like, super fitting that it got transplanted into a living suit of armour.

“You should have known. This is the man I am. You of all people.”

NeoGriffith’s “you of all people” imo is a reference to “ain’t this part of the path to your dream? You believe that, don’t you?” The moment the Godhand shows Griffith to convince him to make the sacrifice, because Guts was prioritizing his dream more than Griffith was and telling him to do whatever’s necessary to achieve it. And the moment that made Griffith believe that Guts saw how dirty/cruel/etc he was and decided to leave him because of it.

That’s what Griffith thinks. NeoGriffith seems a little bitter about it, probably thanks to that beating heart making him less unemotional than he’d like.

Guts doesn’t actually think that. To him the kind of man Griffith was was someone who cared about people, who did some fucked up shit for his dream but felt bad about it and needed reassurance, and who was driven to a point of desperation where he’d sacrifice his friends bc Guts left him and he was tortured for a year (”[Was I] the one who drove you…? Was I the one who brought all this upon you?”)

I find it rly curious that “You of all people,” leads directly, on the same page even, to Guts thinking about NeoGriffith saving Casca, and looking like he’s wondering about it.

It’s obvious that Guts still sees NeoGriff as a monster, given how pissed off he was about his ‘lol idgaf’ attitude towards the Eclipse and the fact that it’s still a struggle not to slip back into revenge mode. But he did watch NeoGriff save Casca from falling rocks for no apparent reason, and now he’s thinking about it while thinking about NeoGriffith saying he should’ve known what kind of man he is.

I mean if you go along with my explanation that part of why Griffith was so devastated when Guts left is bc he was convinced that Guts saw him the way he saw himself,
as a cruel and filthy monster climbing over corpses to get to a castle,

then what Griffith did when he made the sacrifice is choose to transform into and fully embody that version of himself, wiping away everything about him that belies it (or trying to). “You should have known. This is the man I am. You of all people.”

tl;dr Guts left because he admired and loved Griffith, Griffith thought he left because he was disgusted by him, and NGriff is referencing his belief here.

In that final page I think Guts dismisses the issue and decides to focus his attention on Casca – after this as far as I remember he doesn’t think about NGriff’s weird contradictory behaviour again. But I have to wonder if it’s going to come back with a vengeance, alongside the fact that Guts and Griffith both have very different perceptions of what kind of man Griffith was.

i can’t handle this lmao, like the fact that guts is fucking pouting and charlie-brown-walking away because neogriffith didn’t give him the time of day, actually directly comparing it to when he walked out on Griffith and ruined his life, is incredible to me.

like what do redditbro types, the ones who see berserk as an uncomplicated tale of a dude who hates another dude who ruined his life and wants revenge against him, do with this bit?

yk i mentioned b4 that the first two arcs, black swordsman and golden age, feel like a complete story

big angry dude has serious issues, then we learn what caused those issues. if the story had ended after guts declared war on all demons or after he’d suited up to go a monster huntin, well, i would’ve desperately wanted more, but tbh i think it would’ve worked

the black swordsman arc shows us guts mirroring griffith in like a million ways: self harming, walking over people on his way to his goal and justifying it to himself, feeling guilty about that, being described as someone out of a story, being obsessed with a dream, being larger than life, and of course, he picks up a behelit.

the conclusion would’ve been foregone – guts would eventually use the behelit just like griffith did, and the whole story would basically be a depressing cycle effectively told out of order.

(to make it really work it could use some editing ofc. delete the random fetus, have casca die during the eclipse rather than be raped into insanity as a dangling plot point. get rid of the godhand saying guts isn’t ordained by fate and therefore can’t become one of them. add a significant shot of the behelit at the end of the black swordsman arc. but yk in broadstrokes this is a solid tragic narrative.)

mastermistressofdesire:

@bthump thoughts?

I find this panel really interesting because it kinda foreshadows Guts inability to look at an unideal situation and say it is unideal when changing it seems beyond his capacity.

lol yeah my first reaction to it was, really, Guts? tbh idk if it’s so much denial as a kind of ridiculous amount of optimism and looking on the bright side. I feel like it’s not so much Guts going ‘everything is great this is super nice’ after hearing about all the shit the Hawks have gone through in the last year, and more Guts focusing on the fact that the core group is still together and he’s happy to see all his bros again.

Bc yk despite everything, Guts is a serious optimist. And I kind of love that about him even though it’s the source of like, half his problems (I’ll just take off and become Griffith’s equal and surely this will be fine and cause no problems at all. Griffith is perfect he could never lose his composure. Everyone’s still alive and together therefore things are fine oh shit Casca’s 30 seconds away from killing herself fuck. Griffith will be ok he’s just like his old self everything will be fine. Griffith totally wouldn’t sacrifice everyone this is all a mistake. I can and will murder everything and nothing’s gonna stand in my way. Casca will be all right trapped in a dank cave for the rest of her life w/e. Maybe Griffith regrets what he did now that he’s more human-y. I can take Casca to get healed nbd I don’t need anyone’s help. etc etc)

So yeah ia with what you said, it’s part of how Guts’ optimism isn’t necessarily a good trait all the time. Because sometimes when he doesn’t know what to do (eg how to help post-torture Griffith), or when he doesn’t want to do something (eg deal with Casca after the Eclipse), he does pretend that everything is fine and will just work out somehow. It’s a very endearing flaw to me lol, but still a flaw.

i was browsing thru all the pages i have saved looking for smthn to talk about and this one here hit me with the sudden thought:

what if those scratch marks aren’t from that day, but earlier?

idk the way we’re in the midst of the sex scene and then Griffith’s first startling, intruding memory isn’t Guts leaving but Guts saying “you believe that, don’t you?” back after the assassination, followed by the reveal of the marks on Griffith’s shoulder made me go hmm.

Last time I talked about those scratches I mentioned that Griffith showed up at Charlotte’s window in the same clothes he was wearing during the duel so if the marks came from that day you have to imagine him holing up in his room, taking his clothes off, self-harming, and then redressing – which is fine, but it’s an extra step you have to add yourself as a reader, and therefore a little counter-intuitive.

Whereas the placement of panels here feels like cause and effect to me.

Last time we saw Griffith self harming it was while talking about his “blood-soaked dream,” after doing something that makes him feel dirty for the sake of that dream. This time we see SI marks after a panel in which Guts reminds him about that dream and calls his resolve into question, after doing something that makes him feel dirty for the sake of the dream (the assassinations).

Why does Guts question his resolve? Because Griffith needed emotional reassurance from Guts – he needed Guts to tell him he wasn’t cruel for involving him, for “dirtying” Guts by proxy, essentially (”I involved you in this filthy scheme… and I didn’t even get my hands dirty.”) Like I think he needs reassurance that he isn’t dragging Guts down or making him feel dirty himself by virtue of being close to him, and involving him in the darker aspects of his rise to the top. And Guts’ response to that is only to remind him that it’s necessary.

So my point is that “do you think I’m cruel” is another version of “is it… too dirty?” Is he dirty, are people going to feel disgusting too if they get close to him, if they know about what he’s done?

So imagine: Guts tells Griffith, hey, w/e man all this fucked up shit is necessary for your dream. You believe that, don’t you? Griffith does this:

And then he thinks about Guts’ words while he’s getting ready for bed that night or bathing the next morning, thinks about what he’s done and what he’s had Guts do for the sake of his dream, thinks about Guts asking, “you believe that, don’t you?” and tears up his shoulder, convincing himself that he does believe it, the same way he tore up his arms in the river as he talked himself through how necessary it is to dirty himself for his “blood-smeared” dream.

(And it’s been a month since then but lbr if he’s scratching as deep as he did last time those marks would still be very visible here.)

And then Guts leaves. And Griffith thinks it’s because he feels dirty by proxy, because Griffith revealed too much of himself and Guts didn’t like what he saw, because of his dream.

Griffith remembers, “you believe that, don’t you?” and he remembers Guts walking away.

He’s remembering when he hurt himself and why, he’s telling himself, “yes I believe it, it’s necessary, even if it’s why you left my dream is worth it. This is the evidence.” He traces those marks but this time he doesn’t scratch himself.

He’s finally lost his conviction, because losing Guts isn’t worth it and there’s no way he can convince himself that it is.

(this is kind of built on a lot of stuff i wrote here lol, hopefully it makes sense without that but just in case there’s a pseudo part one.)

ps if griffith already had those self-inflicted marks on his shoulder when guts won the duel a hair’s breadth away from wounding griffith exactly on that spot… well griffith self harms as an expression of his feelings of guilt and to drive himself towards his dream. feels symbolic of guts obliterating that dream and being a stronger force than griffith’s guilt, at least for a while.

yk I’ve been thinking about it and tbh I find Casca a surprisingly compelling character, and I think it’s because there’s like this tension to me between character traits she has that I absolutely love, and a narrative that utterly fails to utilize them and diminishes her at every turn

it engages my inherent obstinancy that makes me want to argue with a story lol, and I get this with a lot of characters who I like, but I feel are treated unfairly by the narrative, which makes me want to like them even more.

In Casca’s case it’s not that I feel like the narrative/author wants me to dislike her, but that he wants me to like her for the wrong reasons. I liked her when he wanted her to be disliked, and I disliked how he tried to make her likeable, basically lol. So I get invested in what I liked (leadership, petty cruelty, fighting skills, overinvestment in something, practicality, occasional stubborn stupidity, etc) often despite how it was narratively presented, and I de-emphasize the “likeable” bullshit (hey if casca had matured a few more years she’d grow more comfortable with herself and not be self conscious about being unfeminine; she’d realize quickly that guts is not a solution to her core problem if she had the chance; w/e she can beat ten men at once apparently so fuck miura if he’s only shown her at a disadvantage, it’s still true; etc)

And Casca has enough character depth imo to support different, better
interpretations than what the narrative was pushing and make it
worthwhile to explore other options, like, eg, Casca moving from
Griffith to Guts being an understandable and sympathetic character flaw
she could’ve overcome rather than a step in the right direction that the narrative wanted me to see it as.

Basically I don’t mind reading against the text if it’s more fun that way. It’s not something I’d base srs analysis or w/e off of, it’s more of a thing u base fanfiction on lol, and I’m aware when I’m doing it, but it definitely affects how much I can like a character.

mastermistressofdesire:

bthump:

mastermistressofdesire:

bthump:

a concept

AU where Guts never overheard Griffith’s speech to Charlotte, nothing went wrong, Griffith eventually married Charlotte and became king, managed the whole famine and plague situation competently and is beloved, started hooking up with Guts on the side, Casca became the highest-ranked general in Midland, Gaston’s got his shop, everyone’s living their best lives

And then Ganeshka and his unstoppable demon army shows up, and regular old human king Griffith doesn’t have apostles on his side

So Griffith tries to stop Ganeshka but it’s unquestionably hopeless ofc

Anyway this is ultimately a What If Griffith became king and fulfilled his dream all according to plan but 3 years later had to flee his kingdom (or get knocked out and hauled away over Guts’ shoulder depending on how reluctant he is) as it’s about to be taken over by a demon emperor kinda thing. Or maybe he chooses to flee because Guts is determined to stay and die with him if he stays. Because I like the idea of Griffith being forced to pick Guts’ life over dying for his dream.

Either way bam suddenly he’s back to where he was when he was 12 with a group of rag tag friends roaming the countryside trying to survive and he’s gotta deal with that.

This is an excellent concept.

I really love this.
Also seeing as Griffith’s and Guts relationship in this version has Been allowed to run it’s natural course and I’d really like to see how that would play out.
I actually think, since Griffith and Guts hooked up, Griffith sometimes wishes he could just run away from the kingly stuff once in a while to be with Guts.

What if he isn’t actually averse to running away after the initial clashes against Vanishes prove that it’s futile.
But I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t actually.
Maybe because the guilt for his soldiers hasn’t quite gone yet and he rationalises that he can’t surrender something so much blood had once been spilled for, PLUS since Guts’ is known for his “finish what you started” attitude- Griffith feels that Guts will not respect him anymore if he runs away.

Guts for his part, thinks Griffiths decision is non negotiable, so he’s just determined to save him from as much damage as he can. Guts refuses to come in the way of what Griffith wants. And he reasons that’s well, it’s always been in his nature to fight rather than flee. And if he has to die, nothing better than now, when he’s found somebody who looks at him and CARES.

PLUS since Guts’ is known for his “finish what you started” attitude-
Griffith feels that Guts will not respect him anymore if he runs away.

oooh nice, gr8 point i didn’t consider at all.

also ironic if they both die bc they think that’s what the other wants lol, but that’s so them. maybe casca could intervene w/ some sense + save their asses as per usual.

Like with all the Casca thoughts which have been accumulating.

You Know this bit-
“ Maybe Casca could intervene w/ some sense + save their asses as per usual.”

This is OUR version of Casca. This is our take on what she could have been if the narrative didn’t constantly screw up her characterisation.
Because this action and characteristics makes sense to us, seems like a reasonable expectation and we or rather I (I’ll only speak for myself here for now) would like to believe it to be true- because I really want to like her.

And of course this is us talking about AUs anyway. So we will fill it with what seems reasonable.

But really I can’t help but think how cannon never explored this possibility. In canon Casca never saved their asses or talked sense into them. She made the connections. Yes. She had the information necessary to. Yes. She had the opportunity to. Also yes.

But canon didn’t care about making us like Casca as anything more than either a worthy (and projected as slightly annoying) rival or a love interest.

We’re never made to empathise with any particular or specific actions she takes or roles she plays. It seems like There’s no particularly thing Casca has done in the entire goddamn narrative which defines her. Like HER. Not someone else.

So when we say ‘as per usual’ we’re really just comparing with different versions we have been forced to create on our own.

There’s unfortunately no as per usual we can compare with in the source material.

Which is so frustrating.

Lol yeah this is true and I was kind of thinking when I wrote it that I should’ve said like she always tried to do, and might’ve done if anyone actually listened to her. (Like “just talk to each other!” can you imagine if judeau shut the hell up and they were like, actually yeah casca has a point let’s try words before swords). But I went with less accurate pithiness instead lol.

Also like… I do pretty much agree with you – the narrative is so bad about defining Casca in relation to the men in her life rather than as herself independently that I’ve come to hope it’s her central character flaw that will one day be explored as unlikely as that is lmao, but in fairness despite doing things for Griffith’s sake or for Guts’ sake, she does show a lot of character as she does them.

Taking command of the Hawks, leading the charge to infiltrate Doldrey, rallying the troops in dire situations, jealousy, pettiness, bravery, practicality (one moment I love for her, even if it is just to give Guts a moment of ‘wow she’s so cool’ (ugh), is when she tells the Hawks to stop freaking out at the start of the Eclipse because it’s not going to change the fact that shit just got really weird, so they might as well hold formation and stay calm), foolhardiness due to insecurity (going to battle on her period lol), perseverence even after almost giving up, loyalty ofc and her attempt to navigate between loyalty and what she feels is a betrayal of it albeit a timely and necessary one (even if the ‘betrayal’ is fucking guts, like, the feelings there are still complex despite the shitty plot imo), etc.

I hate almost all of Casca’s narrative and ofc it’s steeped in Miura’s misogyny, and she has a few character moments that are total offensive bs (acting cuter when she warms up to guts, maybe my place is at this man’s side, her non-reaction to Wyald’s attempted rape which just underscores that whole awful thing as pure shock value and titilation, etc) but there are also lots of moments she has that I think are revealing, endearing, and interesting. Like misogyny is one of Miura’s big flaws but shallow characterization sure isn’t and imo while his flaws are seriously on display in Casca’s character his strengths are still there.

So yeah like I don’t disagree with you bc her narrative absolutely sucks and I know that’s p much what you’re talking about, but your response did make me kind of want to talk up her likeability as a character a little lol. Like it’s not enough to make up for her awful narrative role, but it’s enough to make me want to explore her as a character and feel sympathy and empathy for her and relate to her in some ways, which is not a high bar but tbh it’s more than a lot of designated-love-interest-female-characters have.

mastermistressofdesire:

bthump:

look how surprised griffith is by the hawks’ outpouring of emotion when they learn he’s not dead after all.

guts never asked him, he only thought it, but i think that it
wouldn’t’ve even crossed griffith’s mind that faking his own death is
cruel to the hawks. he’s worried about whether asking guts to kill people for him is cruel, not about whether keeping the hawks in the dark is.

this is after he succeeded, after he’s paved
their way, and when he’s no longer useful to them as a military leader. i
don’t think he ever thought they actually cared about him beyond that
enough to be distraught over his “death.”

Yeah I once talked about this in a conversation with someone here, where the other person held the argument that Griffith was an extremely self- entitled person who was aware of his influence and used it knowingly. And they actually made really good points. But then I brought up this incident in my mind.

And I’ve realised that there is a pattern regarding Griffith looking really surprised whenever someone does something for HIM.

There’s this. There’s how surprised he looks when Charlotte starts crying after he gets shot. When Charlotte takes the dart for him. When Guts defends him in front of the Godhand.

And it’s crazy. That for someone who says things like ‘thereby have I held so many lives in this hand’ he’s strangely unaware of the affect he has on others and mostly of the autonomous actions they may take, independent of him, for him.

As confident as Griffith is in his ability to manipulate situations and people, he has very low expectations of them.

Griffith never expects anyone to care.
Hell he never even expected that anyone would ever rescue him from the tower. He didn’t expect Guts to come back.

I think Griffith has conditioned himself to not expect or hope for things which are beyond the things he knows he can Induce on his own.

Which is why even the simplest unpredicted kindness throws him so off balance.

Yeah ia!

And not to sound like someone who reduces Griffith down to sociopath tendencies lol but I think part of it is that people genuinely caring for him is beyond his ability to control?

Like when he thinks about how he’s always been different than other people, some ppl hate him and some ppl love him but no one can disregard him, etc, it boils down to what he can do for people or to them. It’s his charisma inspiring people or intimidating people, and it’s the way he’s a bug in the heavily structured class system that either gives people hope or makes people afraid of him bringing change.

Idk if I really noticed surprise when Charlotte freaked out over the arrow, but definitely when she took the dart for him I got the sense that he was very taken aback bc like… he’d crafted this perfect boyfriend image around her to make her fall for him, but she still loved him after that image fell apart and he was no longer able to appear perfect to her.

Which is also partly why Guts leaving destroyed him so hard – bc once again Guts was an exception who got to see more facets of Griffith, including the less likeable and realer ones, making his response to Griffith a genuine reflection of him and outside of his control.

Yk like if someone hates you because you’ve made yourself hatable to them deliberately (eg griffith climbing the social ladder) that’s nbd, but if someone hates you because they know you, that’s tough, and it’s worse for Griffith than most people because he doesn’t let anyone else know him. Of course Guts doesn’t hate him, but yk, Griff thinks he does.

And relatedly I think Griffith receiving affection and love post-torture would’ve been a huge game-changing deal for him (and probably really emotionally intense and difficult to take too) because of this attitude, but beyond a few moments here and there misunderstandings made shit go south before Guts had the chance to demonstrate his love (Guts defending Griff from the Godhand was a gr8 moment but by then it seemed like too little too late).

Like if someone loves you because you’ve made yourself a perfect wonderful leader to them, that’s nbd, if someone loves you when you’ve been totally broken physically and nearly broken mentally and emotionally that’s a lot more meaningful. Especially if it’s Guts, because again, Guts is the one who’s seen him at his least likeable.

Idk basically this is my take on Griffith being super emotionally defensive and guarded, part 2048392002