yk the anime is a good guide to how to copy really gay scenes shot for shot and suck the homoeroticism right out of them
more examples bc i’m bored and bc the contrast also rly illustrates how well the manga sells it
and anyway guts’ official dream is made up and his genuine dream is to be loved and respected by someone he loves and respects.
and now that i think about it that’s actually some pretty fun irony. to fulfill his actual dream he thinks he has to come up with another dream and in doing so he fucks up his actual dream.
This summarization of his dream to Casca:
then this flashback during the wyald fight:
Like lol once I said that Guts is technically fulfilling his dream by being the Black Swordsman and fighting stronger and stronger enemies in the form of monsters, which is ironic and proves how stupid his dream was, but i mean, he genuinely did want to go out and fight monsters the whole time, he was thinking about it even before Wyald.
Like I’m p sure the dream he chose and settled on pretty much boils down to challenge Zodd to a rematch and defeat him.
fa and i were talking the other day about certain people who (imo) misinterpret griffith’s character to be all about power & control … i think that’s a very stupid but also very interesting character analysis and i think i understand where it comes from lol
what baffles me is how people miss all the not so subtle hints that griffith actually cares. but i guess when you’ve already adopted a point of view, your brain shifts reality to fit it. no one’s exempt from that, really
so griffith is the commander (? idk these titles, sorry if i got it wrong, i’m gay) of the band of the hawk, clearly likes being in control, i won’t deny that. ‘claimed’ guts at least partially due to his strength and fighting ability, schemed behind the scenes a lot, eventually when guts tried to leave he wouldn’t let him, all true. but did he break because he wasn’t in control anymore? well, in a way, i guess, i say with my voice going really high. the real conflict of his character was the contest between his dream, motivated by childish desires and guilt, and guts, the only man who made him forget all about it. guts made him lose his reason, lose control, and he fell apart completely. his raw feelings for guts made him feel so weak and vulnerable it was unbearable.
but even so, what griffith really wanted was guts. the problem was it was already too late. too many people had died. too much time had been wasted. on top of that, guts was no longer a certain and stable presence in his life. he could leave at any moment, again, and griffith wouldn’t be able to stop him, and would have to go through another emotional breakdown.
i don’t know, like. if what you get from that is “griffith is a control freak who throws a fit when he can’t puppet master everyone around him” then i applaud you because that’s an
inconceivable
perspective for me. to me, griffith’s character is about guilt, repression, and an unspeakable love, so strong it made him lose sight of everything else, so intense it shattered him into a million pieces. griffith claims he does things for Logical Reasons, but do you really buy that? when he sold his body to a paedophile, do you really think it was because he just wanted more money? when he decided to throw away his humanity, to bury his fragile heart, do you really think he was doing it strategically? i don’t know, must be nice to not care about anything that truly makes griffith compelling as a character, i bet reading berserk is way less painful then
also a couple of points:
as someone has pointed out already, griffith didn’t force guts to join the band of the hawk. he invited him, guts refused, griffith was surprised but didn’t really say anything. and then guts was like, we’ll duel for it, and griffith saw his opportunity and accepted
this one’s important: griffith ….. didn’t want to become a king so he could have power and money lol. he wanted to create his own society, where things like class, race, and gender wouldn’t matter, just like they didn’t to the hawks. and that’s clearly the type of kingdom falconia is now.
SAME I feel like the aspect of control and whether Griffith has it or not is completely incidental to his character. I don’t think having control is a priority for him, I don’t think it’s a source of anything or a motivation, I think at most it’s a side effect of the enormity of his dream and the fact that to achieve it he has to be a leader.
Like, he is a leader, he sends people to his death and he owns that fact (partially in a denial of his guilt over that fact imho), he wants to be king, and he has a breakdown when Guts leaves that involves claiming ownership of him, but none of those stem from a place of control-freakiness.
When it comes to Guts Casca gets angry because Griffith doesn’t control him as much as he should as a leader and lets him basically do whatever the hell he wants and plans around it. Griffith is the one who tries to ask Guts to help him as a friend by killing a guy rather than ordering him as a soldier, and Guts is the one who wants it to be an order. Griffith makes a point of letting his Hawks choose to follow him because it’s another way he can deny his guilt for their deaths. (”I guess it’s because… they themselves chose to fight.”) Casca follows him after Griffith tells her “do what you wish” (do whatever tf you want is practically a griffith motto, he says it to corkus in the beginning, p much says it to guts wrt battle tactics, etc.)
Idk I don’t get any sense of needing to be in control from Griffith’s personality, I almost see the opposite in the way he denies responsibility for the Hawks’ deaths, his calm interest when discussing the fact that monsters exist even though Zodd almost killed them, his belief in – and more than that, his strong desire to believe in – fate, etc. “We are all at the mercy of a great tide, fate or whatever you want to call it.”
Refusing to let Guts leave came from emotional desperation and falling back on a previously established dynamic that Guts himself suggested and reinforced because he couldn’t communicate his feelings any other way. Imo.
Oh and also like +1 I think Guts fucked him up partially bc to achieve his dream he has to remain in control of himself and when Guts is involved he totally loses it, but I don’t think he really allowed himself to accept the fact that Guts makes him irrational until the torture chamber. I could see an argument that his emotional repression/denial is a way to remain in control of his feelings, but again I don’t think he lives in denial and repression because he’s a control freak, I think it’s because his dream necessitates it.
“Griffith had to make himself strong.” He doesn’t intrinsically desire to be in control of himself or others, he forces himself to be to achieve his dream, which itself is motivated by guilt.
Ooh good question. Yeah I wonder. Because it’s really unsurprising to me that he has no Eclipse-related regrets, but it would be so interesting to see him confronted with a reminder of how vulnerable he was to his feelings for Guts.
I’ve seen people theorize that NeoGriffith might’ve had Guts leaving him in the snow on his mind and maybe took a little bit of spiteful pleasure in being the one to leave Guts behind this time, which I rly like as an idea, especially with Guts moping about how NeoGriffith “deserted” him, but it’s just a headcanon really.
Idk. I feel like something as small as an involuntary flinch from NeoGriffith would be extremely satisfying at this point, x10 if a reminder of the second duel and his devastating feelings for Guts is the reason for it. Maybe we’ll get to see something like that in the future.
I love that Guts thinks of the Zodd debacle as something shared between him and Griffith, something they did together, even though they had a troop of Hawks with them.
And I think Griffith thinks of it the same way:
His reaction to Wyald’s transformation into a monster is to try to join Guts’ side, to help him face it or save him from it.
(And yeah I have no problem confidentally stating that that’s why Griffith fell over here lol. He tries it again when he tries to tear himself away from the men holding him when Casca is in danger, and before this he’d tried to grab his sword, so.)
Also to add an actual point, the call-backs to Zodd are rly effective in spotlighting Griffith’s helplessness in contrast, as well as spotlighting Guts’ solitary fight against monsters, again in contrast to his first fight beside Griffith.
He saves Casca but they don’t go on to fight Wyald together, he tells her to fuck off and let him do this himself, while Griffith is removed from everyone else watching helplessly from a distance. Without Griffith Guts is alone, and vice versa.
Not to the Hawks, but “just me and Griffith.“
I love that Guts thinks of the Zodd debacle as something shared between him and Griffith, something they did together, even though they had a troop of Hawks with them.
And I think Griffith thinks of it the same way:
His reaction to Wyald’s transformation into a monster is to try to join Guts’ side, to help him face it or save him from it.
(And yeah I have no problem confidentally stating that that’s why Griffith fell over here lol. He tries it again when he tries to tear himself away from the men holding him when Casca is in danger, and before this he’d tried to grab his sword, so.)
i’ve seen ppl speculate that he Let rickert slap him which …. hmm i don’t know about that. he certainly was surprised by it, tho ig he could let his “guard” down unintentionally
I could maybe see Griffith letting Rickert slap him because it doesn’t really matter and he’s letting Rickert give him an honest answer or w/e.
But what really gets me is Griffith’s silence in response to Rickert’s speech about how he’s loyal to his Griffith, not this Griffith. There’s no way that’s calculated, he just had nothing to say. All he’s got is “so it is,” in response to Rickert saying the insignias are different. Idk I love it, I can’t help but read that ambiguous silence as inner conflict and self doubt.
Tho incidentally, as an addendum to that last ask, I think the fact that Griffith is supposed to be untouchable (presumably literally and figuratively) by the vast majority of people means that Rickert being able to slap him and leave him speechless and off-balance is a great big sign that something’s malfunctioning with Griffith and his unfreezing heart.
Which is one reason I think that while no one’s going to be able to murder him or turn Falconia against him directly, there’s a distinct possibility of a future storyline where Griffith fucks himself over because he’s a hot mess.
I’m glad I made a convincing case lol, ty for reading 😀
Tbh I have a hard time coming up with a solid idea of what might happen. I guess I’m leaning towards the group, or most of the group depending on whether anyone dies or what Casca does when she wakes up, sticking together. It would feel too repetitive if everyone died again or left to do their own subplots and Guts was back to Black Swordsmaning alone imo. Like granted there’s a complication with the armour potentially taking over now, but even so there’s not a lot of drama or intrigue you can wring out of that. Guts is the Beast of Darkness, eventually someone brings him back to himself again, snore. Like unless that someone is Griffith i’m already bored by the idea bc we’ve seen it like 4 times already.
I could maybe see them parting ways temporarily for plot reasons, splitting up to accomplish different things, but I don’t think Farnese, Serpico, Casca, Schierke, Puck, or Isidro are going to be written out of the story anytime soon. I think they’re here til the end, or close to it.
I could easily see Magnifico, Roderick, the knight dude, and the mermaid dying or taking off though. They’ve all had way less development and time and energy spent on their narratives.
Though I also wouldn’t be surprised to be proven wrong, bc yk, anything
could happen when Casca gets her mind back and I’m prepared to be
surprised by whichever direction we end up going in.
lol the majority of fandom thinks he and femto are exactly the same, i’m pretty sure this corner of tumblr is in the minority.
and yes femto is obviously created from a part of griffith, I don’t think anyone thinks he’s a wholly new character created out of thin air, it’s just a question of where you draw the line. i differentiate between them because they have different personalities and different dominant drives and different motivations (like I don’t think Femto/NeoGriff is motivated by guilt anymore). griffith contained femto, just as guts contains the beast of darkness, but the rest of griffith is gone, or frozen now (give or take a few suggestive bthumpy hints that a part of him still remains buried in femto/neogriffith.)
Also I should let you know that I personally believe blaming the fetus was just NeoGriffith’s way of continuing to deny his actual feelings. I don’t think the fetus actually has much of anything to do with NeoGriffith’s current emotional state, and while I may be proven wrong, I would be very disappointed if I am. So we’re unlikely to agree on that point.
(here are two posts about the neogriffith fetus issue, if you’re interested in more of an explanation)
And I think NeoGriffith is going to keep being a genial, very likeable king tbh. He’ll keep expanding Falconia, welcoming all people to live as equals there, and the majority of Midland and wherever else he expands to are probably going to love him. Any political backlash would be pretty easily quelled – the nobles don’t really have a leg to stand on, they’re vastly outnumbered, and Griff has been declared a saint or w/e and is going to be crowned by the head of the holy see, plus he can’t be harmed by ordinary humans, so I don’t think there’s much they can do even if they resent him.
I’d like to see them sowing some seeds of emotional turmoil for NeoGriffith by reminding him of his life before the Eclipse, maybe moreso now that Rickert has kind of pointed some shit out to him that he couldn’t deny, but I can’t see them affecting the plot much at this point. I mean, maybe if Guts shows up and they help him, but that would be kind of weird lol, and I don’t really see that happening.
Yeah, I’d say whether Femto is a different person from Griffith comes down to semantics and what someone considers personhood, but to me undergoing a magical transformation that augments the “evil” in your heart (which, in Berserk, exists in the hearts of all people) and removes the “goodness” or w/e, as visually depicted by literally losing fragments of himself:
makes you different enough that I have no problem mentally separating human Griffith and Femto, and definitely don’t hate Griffith for Femto’s actions, same way I don’t hate Guts for trying to murder his friends when the armour takes over.
If you (general you) wanna hate Griffith for agreeing to sacrifice his friends, or challenging Guts when he left, or w/e, I’ll disagree but I think that’s fair game. But hating him for Femto’s actions after we’re taken step by step through his magical transformation into an entity made out of evil really doesn’t make sense to me.
Also, do you mean Griffith would’ve taken Guts back if he’d returned, say, a year after the duel, like in canon, but Griffith hadn’t gotten caught fucking Charlotte and therefore hadn’t spent that year in a dungeon?
I think Griffith probably would take him back, because he’s desperate and needy and irrational and in love, but I could see an argument where the duel is a big wake-up call to how emotionally compromised he is by his love for Guts, which could make him view Guts as a huge threat lol, and he might refuse to let him return to try to protect himself from his own destructive, dream-endangering feelings.
Though I think it’s also likely that Griffith isn’t that self aware even after the duel, and would still manage to deny his feelings. Like Guts would come back and Griffith would somehow logic himself into returning to their close relationship without admitting to himself that he just really needs Guts in his life. Like, “it’s not because I desperately want him back at my side, it’s because he knows I assassinated the queen and co and therefore I need him as my ally and not my enemy.” Or something along those lines. Though of course his feelings would be that much harder to deny now, and eventually something would have to give.
Or he could be aware of his feelings now, but too far gone to refuse Guts, a la “if I can’t have him, I don’t care!” Like, “ok Guts’ existence could clearly ruin me, but fuck it, he came back and I’ll be damned if I’m letting him leave me again ever.” Which would open its own associated emotional can of worms lol.
lol sorry I love thinking about Griffith’s stupid feelings and how he deals or doesn’t deal with them.
(And now I’m wondering what if Guts turned around and walked back two minutes after leaving Griffith in the snow. I feel like if that was the case Griffith would be incapable of anything but genuine emotional expression, either in the form of being overwhelmed with relief that Guts came back and immediately taking him back, or rage followed by a sobbing breakdown or smthn.
This is a great topic to muse on lol)
I wonder if, if Guts turned around and walked back, if Griffith would be too vulnerable for relief/rage? Like, Guts just almost left, and Griffith made a fool out of himself by completely letting his emotions get the best of him. I feel like anger, pride, and just plain exhaustion might stop him from acting up again, although … they also might not, damn, I don’t think we can know for sure.
Idk the way he falls to the snow and stares into space, unable to even pretend he’s okay for the Hawks who are just standing there awkwardly, personally has me thinking it’s a v rare moment where he’s not capable of self-control. I’d give it maybe a few minutes before he smiles, stands up, and pretends “it’s nothing,” but if Guts caught him before that point I think his reaction would be raw af.
though there’s def some wishful thinking here because it’s a reaction I’d love to see even if I don’t think I can completely picture it.
If Guts caught him after he put the mask on again I think his reaction could be very different. Maybe angry and prideful, maybe something like, “you won your freedom, so gtfo,” something indicating an “i don’t want your pity” kinda feeling, idk. but i’m just throwing headcanons at the wall lol, like I could see a lot of different reactions as ic depending on how it’s depicted.
Yeah, I’d say whether Femto is a different person from Griffith comes down to semantics and what someone considers personhood, but to me undergoing a magical transformation that augments the “evil” in your heart (which, in Berserk, exists in the hearts of all people) and removes the “goodness” or w/e, as visually depicted by literally losing fragments of himself:
makes you different enough that I have no problem mentally separating human Griffith and Femto, and definitely don’t hate Griffith for Femto’s actions, same way I don’t hate Guts for trying to murder his friends when the armour takes over.
If you (general you) wanna hate Griffith for agreeing to sacrifice his friends, or challenging Guts when he left, or w/e, I’ll disagree but I think that’s fair game. But hating him for Femto’s actions after we’re taken step by step through his magical transformation into an entity made out of evil really doesn’t make sense to me.
Also, do you mean Griffith would’ve taken Guts back if he’d returned, say, a year after the duel, like in canon, but Griffith hadn’t gotten caught fucking Charlotte and therefore hadn’t spent that year in a dungeon?
I think Griffith probably would take him back, because he’s desperate and needy and irrational and in love, but I could see an argument where the duel is a big wake-up call to how emotionally compromised he is by his love for Guts, which could make him view Guts as a huge threat lol, and he might refuse to let him return to try to protect himself from his own destructive, dream-endangering feelings.
Though I think it’s also likely that Griffith isn’t that self aware even after the duel, and would still manage to deny his feelings. Like Guts would come back and Griffith would somehow logic himself into returning to their close relationship without admitting to himself that he just really needs Guts in his life. Like, “it’s not because I desperately want him back at my side, it’s because he knows I assassinated the queen and co and therefore I need him as my ally and not my enemy.” Or something along those lines. Though of course his feelings would be that much harder to deny now, and eventually something would have to give.
Or he could be aware of his feelings now, but too far gone to refuse Guts, a la “if I can’t have him, I don’t care!” Like, “ok Guts’ existence could clearly ruin me, but fuck it, he came back and I’ll be damned if I’m letting him leave me again ever.” Which would open its own associated emotional can of worms lol.
lol sorry I love thinking about Griffith’s stupid feelings and how he deals or doesn’t deal with them.
(And now I’m wondering what if Guts turned around and walked back two minutes after leaving Griffith in the snow. I feel like if that was the case Griffith would be incapable of anything but genuine emotional expression, either in the form of being overwhelmed with relief that Guts came back and immediately taking him back, or rage followed by a sobbing breakdown or smthn.
This is a great topic to muse on lol)
You should have known. This is the man I am. You of all people.
@chaoticgaygriffith@yesgabsstuff lol you mentioned me but tbh my opinion on this topic is basically exactly what you’re discussing in the comments so, +1
i guess one thing i can throw out tho is that
I kinda think on a narrative level the whole sequence from Guts waking up from his nightmare and then thinking of Griffith with this look in his eyes
to Griffith winning and Guts looking at him with the same look in his eyes
tells us that
there’s attraction between Guts and Griffith that can’t be
straightforwardly acted on because of their histories.
Like Guts clearly already wants Griffith’s attention despite getting uncomfortable and pissed off when he gets it, and the fact that instead of just walking away he proposes a bet where if he wins he can stab Griffith and if he loses he has to stay with him in a maybe sexual way, and either way they get to get up close and personal with swords and roll around in the grass for a while, seems pretty telling to me.
Idk basically I think Guts subconsciously wants to stay with Griffith and keep
Griffith’s attention on him despite his discomfort, I think attraction
and sexuality seeps into their exchange because, well, it’s there, and I
think rape comes in because that’s what Guts thinks of when he thinks of
men and sexuality (and thanks to the nightmare its on his and the audience’s minds),
and it’s brought up bc it’s a complication that keeps that attraction subconscious and sublimated.
He’s not currently doing any campaigning, he defeated Ganeshka pretty easily and now all his work seems to be taking in refugees, expanding Falconia, performing miracles so ppl can say goodbye to their loved ones, and having tea with the pope or w/e.
I do wonder about people who would resent Griffith for not being noble – they might provide some conflict, though I doubt there’s much they could actually do. And tbh I think Foss is actually a genuine believer now, personally, and probably a somewhat terrified one, but he’d also be an interesting thread to pick up again. I really want to see more from the perspectives of people who knew original Griffith.
I feel like for most of them this is actually kind of a natural progression – we saw people talking back in the Golden Age about how he was like a painting, how he was like a fairytale hero, we saw admiring peasants, etc. He won the war despite all odds so to have him reappear and save Midland from Ganeshka’s army fits everyone’s preconceptions of him. But there could still be some interesting stuff to be explored.
Tbh I’d love for Charlotte to gradually start to realize how non-genuine Griffith’s affections are (though I don’t think that’s changed between being human and being a god lol) or maybe sense a certain coldness or emptiness from him. I doubt it would happen soon though, and it might not happen at all – Charlotte didn’t exactly know him very well as a human, she idealized him herself quite a bit and NeoGriffith’s image of perfection probably fits her expectations.
Idk what I’d love to see is like, suggestive conversations and little reminders that NeoGriffith isn’t quite the same as Original Griffith, and that he’s very singular and therefore very alone. We got Rickert, now I want more. Like let’s see Owen asking after Guts the way he asked Guts about Griffith. Or let’s see what Griffith does in his spare time, or what the nobles say about him and the rumours that he was a traitor a few years ago. I like outsider perspectives a lot and I think there’s a lot of good potential there.
the fact that he’s remembering the very first moment we saw them together when we know guts thought of him as “beautiful, noble, and larger than life,” where griffith said, “i’ve never spoken to anyone like this,” is killer tbh. thinking about that early moment of vulnerability, wondering if guts has been hating/resenting him all this time.
yk, i always think of guts as being the only member of the hawks who was recruited without a choice in the matter. the only one who didn’t choose to follow griffith but instead got won in a duel. i was even about to write some meta on it and what it says about griffith and how he forgets his dream when guts is involved (because it’s important to him that every one of the hawks chooses to follow him of their own volition, it’s how he maintains his denial of guilt). but i sat down to start writing it and i was like, wait a sec.
bc the thing is, the duel was all guts.
griffith said he wanted guts to join him, seemed taken aback when guts refused out of hand, and that’s it.
guts is the one who went hey i know let’s fight again and if i lose i’ll fight for you or we’ll fuck or whatever
like, i think griffith just leapt at the chance to keep guts around another way, i don’t think he would’ve made that suggestion himself, or kidnapped him if guts didn’t suggest it or w/e. guts probably could’ve just went ‘uh thanks for not letting me die i guess, see ya’ and griffith probably would’ve sighed and let him leave if more sweet talking didn’t work.
instead guts went ‘we’re enemies, i want to fight you again, here are the stakes,’ and griffith was like, ‘fuck yeah i’m in’
idek i’ve read this scene a million times idg why i always think of griffith as the instigator when he’s textually not. maybe bc once guts brings up the idea griffith is so hugely into it lol with his ‘i must obtain the things i desire’ and reiterating that guts belongs to him etc.
but guts did have a choice. he chose to fight griffith and he chose the stakes of the duel.
lol I actually theorize that he was a former Godhand, though without any real evidence other than the timeline we’re given. (I think he somehow made his reality warping sword by eating behelits lol.) My theory is that he was the last incarnated Godhand member pre-Griffith, since one supposedly incarnates once every thousand years and Gaiseric’s Falconia 1.0 empire was a thing 1000 years ago. Plus Guts comparing him to Griffith was a solid “hmmm” moment, and the fact that he’s also compared to Guts now (witch friend, possible revenge quest, armour) is more interesting to me if he was the world’s previous “Griffith.”
Never heard those speculations, why 200 years? And like Zodd how? Monstrous, or roaming battle fields, or bloodlusty, or what? Seems like an odd theory since Zodd is just an apostle and Griffith is a god. (Unless you mean become like Skull Knight, in which case I could get behind that theory.)
And I’m not gonna lie, I’m 100% a Griffith fan and I’ll absolutely argue that he wasn’t at all evil pre-rebirth into Femto. Like, the Godhand ultimately convinced him to make the sacrifice not through offers of power or rejuvenation but by guilt-tripping him about all the people who died for his dream. Human Griff ain’t evil, he’s just got stupid (tho imo v understandable) priorities.
After he became Femto, I’d say he’s like, literally evil, in that he’s literally described as being made up of the same evil/dark/negative aspects of humanity that the Idea of Evil is. And NeoGriffith is a mysterious wildcard as far as I can tell, I have no idea if he’s yet another aspect of humanity brought to the forefront, the way Griffith was all human and Femto was humanity’s darkness, or if he’s just Femto with a flesh suit on, or what, so I’m just waiting on more reveals before making up my mind on him.
But I don’t think he’s Satan, or an anti-christ. I think he’s a Christ figure in a world whose God is a manifestation of humanity’s dark side. Yk, if that’s a difference worth distinguishing lol.
I feel like I remember seeing confirmation that Miura was inspired by Hellraiser, tho it could’ve just been speculation I guess, but either way yeah big similarities there lol.
tbh I think we’re supposed to think the possibility exists for Guts to become an apostle, but not a Godhand, since a new member only joins up once every 200 something years. But I personally don’t think it’s going to happen.
But Femto/NeoGriff opposing the rest of the Godhand, now that’s something I think is a possibility. Void is sketchy as fuck, he seems to know more than the rest of the Godhand, and he’s got ultimate big bad written all over him. Plus Miura hinted that he’s going to be really relevant. Add in the fact that theoretically there must’ve been 5 other Godhand members 1000 years ago (since one of them can only incarnate every 1000 years, and this must’ve happened more than once to be a recognized cycle) so Godhands don’t last forever, and ngl I do wonder if there’s going to be a conflict between NeoGriff and the Godhand.
And that’s not a stupid question. Like, I don’t think Femto and NeoGriff are in conflict, but I absolutely wonder if NeoGriff has some inner conflict going on with his reawakened emotions, whatever they are. So if that’s the case I wouldn’t really describe that as NeoGriffith vs Femto so much as the last vestiges of human Griffith vs Femto/NeoGriff, but hey that’s just semantics, no one knows wtf is going on with NeoGriff internally or whether he’s distinct from Femto, etc. So I guess “maybe” is my actual answer to that, haha.
Thanks for the ask, idk there’s lots to think and wonder about. I can’t wait til Miura starts actually like, revealing stuff and getting the plot going again lol.
The way Miura wrote the story I’d say Guts is by far the stronger and more relatable character. Unfortunately Casca really gets the “the token chick” treatment where her whole story and all her issues and half her personality is about being a woman surrounded by men, and written by a dude, so yk, I don’t blame anyone for being unable to relate to her lol, and personal preference is whatever, so it’s not like you should have to like her just because you’re a girl.
And I definitely agree that Casca should develop on her own, away from Guts. The way she jumped straight from being overinvested in Griffith and his dream to being overinvested in Guts and his dream was pretty fucked up imo, and a sign that she needs to get independent.
But I’d have to disagree with you about their respective feelings, because while I think they both felt genuine affection for the other, neither of them felt genuine love, and I’d say even moreso than Casca did, Guts consistently prioritized/s Griffith over her.
cut for length
Rather than staying and supporting her he still wants to go out to become Griffith’s equal, and this is how he invites her along when Casca is outraged by his priorities:
which is pretty far from romantic or commital lol.
While Casca is jealous of Charlotte during the rescue, Guts’ reaction is basically, well that kinda sucks but lbr I got it even worse than she does so it’s not like I can blame her:
When they find Griffith this is the next thing he says to Casca:
During the Eclipse this is what Guts does when he sees the Band, including Casca, about to be eaten by monsters:
And of course after the Eclipse he dumps her in a cave for two years to pursue Griffith/continue pursuing his dream of fighting stronger and stronger opponents and therefore being Griffith’s friend/equal, once again prioritizing Griffith:
When he finally does end up sticking with her to take her to Elfhelm, this is how he makes that decision:
This is what he’s thinking about when he starts off on his journey:
and of course i’d be remiss if i didn’t mention how Griffith grabbing Guts’ attention away from rescuing Casca is framed:
AND then there’s the whole Beast of Darkness fiasco.
And even when they’re on the boat, he’s still planning to run back to Griffith once his sidequest with Casca is over:
Idk basically I would argue that Guts is by far shittier to Casca than Casca is to Guts, and neither are genuinely all that invested in their potential relationship. It’s a rebound for both, an attempt to get over Griffith that doesn’t work for either, but in fairness to Casca she tried, and even when she decided to stay with Griffith she told Guts to leave because she was prioritizing his stupid dream lol, while Guts’ investment in becoming worthy of being Griffith’s friend had him refusing to stay and suggesting Casca come with him only insofar as she doesn’t fuck up his dream from the very start.
So, less one-sided, and more no-sided lol.
Anyway this is Guts uncomfortably identifying with Casca’s worshipful admiration (which we are later told is a romantic crush) of Griffith. Like we get a …. shot of Guts looking broody every time Casca starts waxing poetic.
Uncomfortably because he wants to be Griffith’s equal and he feels like he’s looking up at him while Griffith is looking down.
And THIS is either Guts thinking Casca is wrong about how Griffith feels about him, or (more likely imo) being moody because he thinks Casca deserves her place at Griffith’s side more than he does, because she has a dream to live for.
It leads to the 100 man fight, which he spends thinking about how pointless it is because he’s swinging his sword for no other reason but to swing it, and gets Casca to escape because she has something more to live for than he does. Which then leads to campfire of dreams, where he concludes that everyone has a dream except for him, says compared to what Casca and Griffith have to live for nothing he does is important, so he’d better leave to find one so he can be worthy of standing beside Griffith.
Casca and Guts have been rivals for Griffith’s affections, that’s their main relationship up til now. But this is the point where Guts concludes that he’s lost the fight, and starts throwing them together while he prepares to bow out, at least til he can come back feeling worthy of Griffith.
2/2 So I’m a bit puzzled and I am wondering about your
interpretation, if you’ve already written a meta about that scene. What I
think is that Guts definitely sees Griffith romantically so he was
doubly heartbroken after hearing that he doesn’t see him as a friend or
equal, so he wanted to leave in order to make him care about him
seriously. But Griffith already loves Guts and respects him, so his
speech is a bit contradictory. Sorry for the long ask btw I love your
blog 🙂
Hi there 🙂 Yk, I don’t think I actually have really talked about this scene in much depth.
My general default reading of Guts and Griffith’s relationship is that they are both romantically in love with each other but neither of them actually realize that they are. (Well, I don’t think Guts has ever quite realized it, at least not consciously, but I do think that Griffith figured it out during his year of torture.)
So in my opinion, Griffith meant his friendship speech.
I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that the conversation that comes right before the assassination attempt and then Griffith’s speech in the narrative included this exchange:
Griffith asking Guts to assassinate Julius was, in a way, a gesture of friendship. It was a request for Guts to do this for him, as a favour for a friend rather than an order from a superior, and Guts picked up on Griffith’s careful phrasing and accidentally rebuffed him. I think Guts meant this as a lighthearted joke, but while we don’t get to see Griffith’s reaction to it, I’m willing to bet he took it as a rejection.
Maybe not even a purposeful rejection – but certainly a sign that Guts doesn’t see him as a friend, but sees him as a superior first. I think this leads directly to Griffith’s speech to Charlotte where he proclaims that he has no equals. Like, it’s completely accurate, whether or not it’s arrogant as well – people either look up at him as a saviour or symbol of their ability to rise in the world, or look down on him as a symbol of corruption in the system.
I also think there’s another important aspect to his speech.
What he describes to Charlotte as a friend is someone who has his own dream, separate from Griffith’s, and would pursue it even if it meant clashing with him.
To Griffith, whose life revolves around his dream and who frames things like that because it’s how he sees the world, what this translates to is that a friend is someone who won’t die in service to his dream.
I think he tries to keep an emotional distance between himself and his Hawks because, frankly, they tend to die in battle, and it fucks him up (as we see in Casca’s flashback to the dead kid and the morning after Gennon.)
So he says the Hawks aren’t his friends because he can’t think of them that way. They see him as a perfect leader, he sees them as people who he will one day send to their deaths, simply by ordering them into whichever battle eventually kills them.
So when Guts re-establishes that he sees Griffith as a leader and tells him to order him to do things instead of requesting favours, it’s a reminder to Griffith to distance himself.
Of course, it doesn’t actually work. He can’t turn off his feelings for Guts even if he tries to ignore and downplay them (also see: I had no reason at all for risking my life for you. He can acknowledge that yeah, he did do that, but he can’t acknowledge why – because he loves him – not even to himself.) Guts is still the only person who Griffith allows to see and participate in the shady shit he does to rise to the top, the stuff that makes him feel dirty. He still risks his life for Guts. He still sends a search party after Guts and Casca despite going against the wishes of the nobles he’s supposed to be sucking up to, and then ditches an important meeting to see them in person. He still expresses concern for Guts’ safety before the Battle of Doldrey. And he crashes and burns harder than anyone has ever crashed and burned after Guts leaves lol.
(Now there is an obvious contradiction in that Griffith wants to be Guts friend and equal rather than the superior who will send him to his death eventually, but also won’t let him leave the Hawks, but that’s plain old fear of rejection imo, and not understanding Guts’ reasons for leaving, and an irrational emotional implosion lol.)
AND I think there’s a third aspect that ought to be explored: Griffith can only call an equal who would fight for his own dream a friend because this definition allows him to continue prioritizing his dream. To save Guts’ life at the risk to his own, rather than let Guts be killed for his dream, is, at its core, a betrayal of his dream, and the thousands of people who’ve died for it. But if his “friend” was an “equal” with his own obsessive dream, then in theory he’d never have to choose between his friend and his dream – it would be understood that their respective dreams would be prioritized. Another reason for the “and should anyone trample that dream he would oppose him body and soul… even if that threat were me myself” clause.
At the end of the day Griffith already loves and respects Guts, of course – he has from day one – but he can’t admit that yet, not even to himself, imo, because it’s a serious, serious threat to everything he’s built his life around.
Tbh I feel like there’s a lot more to say on this topic, especially how and why Griffith represses and denies his feelings for Guts, and what his dream means to him, etc, but I think I’m definitely going to end up writing a long ass analytical post about him soon because I’m really feeling all this nitty gritty Griffith stuff at the moment lol. But yeah when it comes to Promrose Hall I think this is pretty much my thoughts on what Griffith’s speech is about.
Anyway, thanks for the message, I love talking about this kinda stuff 🙂 And ty I’m glad you enjoy my blog.
I love love looooooove Griffith’s immediate reaction to finding out Guts intends to leave. At that point I don’t think he had forgotten about Guts boss-zoning him, and him wanting to just … leave without a goddamn word only rubbed salt into that wound. In my opinion, along with impulsive irrationality fueled by pure fear, this is one of the reasons he so quickly resorted to basically saying “You can’t leave because I own you.” It’s spiteful out of hurt–if you’re going to treat me like a stranger, then I’m going to treat you like one too.
Yessss ia! And I also think that along those lines, while Griffith might not have been like hugely devastated Guts’ apparent rejection of his attempt to lower that barrier of commander/soldier between them at the time (yk he might’ve taken it as the light joke it was meant to be as well as just an incidental reminder that that’s not their relationship), after he learned that Guts wanted to leave I’ll bet he replayed that moment in his head and it turned into Guts asking to be ordered because he wouldn’t do it as a friend.
Like a judgement – I won’t voluntarily do this abhorrent dirty work for you, but I’ll do it if you order me to because I’m a soldier.
Griffith asking him instead of ordering him imo had another level of wanting Guts’ acceptance of his “dirty side.” It was a show of trust.
So I could def see “wrest yourself away by your sword,” coming from a place of spite + desperation from that angle too. You’ll only stay by my side if I order you to? Then that’s what I’ll do.
2/2 So I’m a bit puzzled and I am wondering about your
interpretation, if you’ve already written a meta about that scene. What I
think is that Guts definitely sees Griffith romantically so he was
doubly heartbroken after hearing that he doesn’t see him as a friend or
equal, so he wanted to leave in order to make him care about him
seriously. But Griffith already loves Guts and respects him, so his
speech is a bit contradictory. Sorry for the long ask btw I love your
blog 🙂
Hi there 🙂 Yk, I don’t think I actually have really talked about this scene in much depth.
My general default reading of Guts and Griffith’s relationship is that they are both romantically in love with each other but neither of them actually realize that they are. (Well, I don’t think Guts has ever quite realized it, at least not consciously, but I do think that Griffith figured it out during his year of torture.)
So in my opinion, Griffith meant his friendship speech.
I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that the conversation that comes right before the assassination attempt and then Griffith’s speech in the narrative included this exchange:
Griffith asking Guts to assassinate Julius was, in a way, a gesture of friendship. It was a request for Guts to do this for him, as a favour for a friend rather than an order from a superior, and Guts picked up on Griffith’s careful phrasing and accidentally rebuffed him. I think Guts meant this as a lighthearted joke, but while we don’t get to see Griffith’s reaction to it, I’m willing to bet he took it as a rejection.
Maybe not even a purposeful rejection – but certainly a sign that Guts doesn’t see him as a friend, but sees him as a superior first. I think this leads directly to Griffith’s speech to Charlotte where he proclaims that he has no equals. Like, it’s completely accurate, whether or not it’s arrogant as well – people either look up at him as a saviour or symbol of their ability to rise in the world, or look down on him as a symbol of corruption in the system.
I also think there’s another important aspect to his speech.
What he describes to Charlotte as a friend is someone who has his own dream, separate from Griffith’s, and would pursue it even if it meant clashing with him.
To Griffith, whose life revolves around his dream and who frames things like that because it’s how he sees the world, what this translates to is that a friend is someone who won’t die in service to his dream.
I think he tries to keep an emotional distance between himself and his Hawks because, frankly, they tend to die in battle, and it fucks him up (as we see in Casca’s flashback to the dead kid and the morning after Gennon.)
So he says the Hawks aren’t his friends because he can’t think of them that way. They see him as a perfect leader, he sees them as people who he will one day send to their deaths, simply by ordering them into whichever battle eventually kills them.
So when Guts re-establishes that he sees Griffith as a leader and tells him to order him to do things instead of requesting favours, it’s a reminder to Griffith to distance himself.
Of course, it doesn’t actually work. He can’t turn off his feelings for Guts even if he tries to ignore and downplay them (also see: I had no reason at all for risking my life for you. He can acknowledge that yeah, he did do that, but he can’t acknowledge why – because he loves him – not even to himself.) Guts is still the only person who Griffith allows to see and participate in the shady shit he does to rise to the top, the stuff that makes him feel dirty. He still risks his life for Guts. He still sends a search party after Guts and Casca despite going against the wishes of the nobles he’s supposed to be sucking up to, and then ditches an important meeting to see them in person. He still expresses concern for Guts’ safety before the Battle of Doldrey. And he crashes and burns harder than anyone has ever crashed and burned after Guts leaves lol.
(Now there is an obvious contradiction in that Griffith wants to be Guts friend and equal rather than the superior who will send him to his death eventually, but also won’t let him leave the Hawks, but that’s plain old fear of rejection imo, and not understanding Guts’ reasons for leaving, and an irrational emotional implosion lol.)
AND I think there’s a third aspect that ought to be explored: Griffith can only call an equal who would fight for his own dream a friend because this definition allows him to continue prioritizing his dream. To save Guts’ life at the risk to his own, rather than let Guts be killed for his dream, is, at its core, a betrayal of his dream, and the thousands of people who’ve died for it. But if his “friend” was an “equal” with his own obsessive dream, then in theory he’d never have to choose between his friend and his dream – it would be understood that their respective dreams would be prioritized. Another reason for the “and should anyone trample that dream he would oppose him body and soul… even if that threat were me myself” clause.
At the end of the day Griffith already loves and respects Guts, of course – he has from day one – but he can’t admit that yet, not even to himself, imo, because it’s a serious, serious threat to everything he’s built his life around.
Tbh I feel like there’s a lot more to say on this topic, especially how and why Griffith represses and denies his feelings for Guts, and what his dream means to him, etc, but I think I’m definitely going to end up writing a long ass analytical post about him soon because I’m really feeling all this nitty gritty Griffith stuff at the moment lol. But yeah when it comes to Promrose Hall I think this is pretty much my thoughts on what Griffith’s speech is about.
Anyway, thanks for the message, I love talking about this kinda stuff 🙂 And ty I’m glad you enjoy my blog.
I think you’ve got it backwards – Eggman with the brand on his tongue swallowed the fetus which became Griffith’s new corporeal body.
Since Eggman sacrificed the world to become an apostle, I think the brand appears on him because he’s the vehicle that creates the new world (Griffith), and he’s destroyed in the process – in a way he sacrificed himself.
But the brand isn’t on Griffith, I don’t think, unless Eggman also became a part of him. But I think he’s just the egg that hatched him, lol. Idk it’s weird so this is just my educated guess, I don’t really get what even happened haha.
Really? Like, I feel like that’s inarguably canon.
It’s directly and unambiguously what causes him to break from reality and hallucinate the whole dream chasing thing, then try to kill himself when he imagines a future with neither dream, nor Guts.
(Also like, how much do I love and want to cry about the way that brief vision of a future with Casca revolves around Guts’ absence? “I wonder if he’s still swinging his sword around somewhere.” Naming her kid Guts. “WIth you and the boy… Just the three of us,” as she seemingly leans in to kiss him. It’s heartbreaking tbh.)
Anyway ty, I’m all about loving Griffith on this blog lol, he’s one of my favourite characters in general so no judgement here 🙂
Well we don’t know how much of his life and general existence utilizes fate/magic/whatever so that’s fair.
Also I may not have phrased my response very well, because I def don’t think he’s acting just like an unchanged Griffith. And I totally agree that NeoGriff is super boring in comparison to Griffith in a way, because everything is easy to him.
But idk I think that NeoGriff is charismatic – like eg saying “i must ask, once again, your pardon, princess charlotte” when he rescues her is a ridiculously good line. His response to her army camp baking is exactly what she would’ve wanted to hear, he’s super pleasant and likeable, and we see the ways he makes himself that way with what he says and how he acts.
I guess the real question is whether he magically knows exactly what to say or do to get the response he wants, or whether it’s a mix of that and actual social skill, or whether it’s just skill but now that he’s an inhuman god who can’t be harmed he’s able to make full use of it without human weaknesses holding him back.
And it could be any of those options, so I don’t think you’re wrong, it definitely could be that he’s using god magic to do everything perfectly. I just prefer to think it’s 2 or 3 because it’s more interesting to me. If everything NeoGriff does is just going with the flow of fate and being able to see the future or whatever then I’d be disappointed because that’s super boring. But we know that he needs the help of his psychic to see the flow of battle, so he can’t be completely all-knowing, right?
okay further on this point which is also in the blurb on the back of this volume, “brought to his knees by his first defeat” isn’t saying he’s so wounded that guts physically won their duel– I give griffith more credit for knowing guts strength– the defeat is guts leaving and griffith being unable to stop that/not having planned for it at all
right like this is one line out of like 20 of casca and others saying griffith was fucked up because guts left – this just underscores that Guts leaving was a defeat. Yk, like he’s defeated emotionally by this turn of events, not that he’s devasted just because he lost a duel lol. Guts leaving happens along with his first ‘defeat in battle’ to emphasize the emotional significance of Guts leaving and how unprecedented Griffith’s feelings here are, it doesn’t contradict the million other times ppl described him as totally gone to pieces because Guts abandoned him
but berserk fans always take this one line out of context and ignore everything else 😡
I don’t think he can transform into Femto, but I think Ganeshka saw him as Femto because he’d ascended into a higher plane of existence, in which he could see NeoGriffith for what he truly was.
So when we saw him as Femto during the scene where he killed Ganeshka and broke the world, it was because that’s what Ganeshka (and probs Skull Knight) saw. Like his true spiritual form, kinda thing.
Femto is a dick, yes, but tbf NeoGriffith has a ton of charisma. The way I see it, Femto didn’t need to be charismatic because he was a god on another playing field whose only peers were other completely dickish and shitty gods lol, like, when you only have Slan, Conrad, Ubik, and Void to hang out with, there’s no point in being charismatic. But as NeoGriffith he has a reason to be charming. I’m sure magic/fate/whatever also plays a part, but I also think part of it is just his natural Griffith-ness coming back to the fore. NeoGriffith is like what Griffith wished he was – perfectly charismatic, the absolute perfect image of a perfect king. Human Griffith did pretty well in that arena, so it stands to reason that NeoGriffith retained that charisma, and is making use of it again, with the added perfection that comes from being a god incarnate.
I never really thought about Femto being modeled after Guts. In the Black Swordsman arc he’s swole as fuck lol but I think that’s just the art before Miura really figured out the vibe he wanted. Everyone was huge in the Black Swordsman arc lol. During the Eclipse he’s slimmed down a bit, and then moreso in our glimpse of him with Ganeshka. I think it’s an interesting explanation though, and I dig it as a headcanon.
And as a contrast to his fragile helpless human body when he made the sacrifice it def makes sense for him to be reborn as a much more powerful, physically intimidating figure.
Someone with the brand of sacrifice can’t be sacrificed again, but there’s nothing saying they can’t use a behelit. And since the implication is that Guts might use the behelit at some point – Flora says it could be his – it follows that Casca could also potentially use it.
She wouldn’t be able to sacrifice Guts, because in the Black Swordsman Arc the Godhand said that you can’t sacrifice someone who’s already been sacrificed, but she could sacrifice Farnese (which would suck) or I’ve suggested maybe the Moonlight Boy (which imo would be awesome but I never rly liked that kid lol).
And yeah I totally agree that Casca telling Guts to leave totally fucked Griffith up and was like, the last straw that lead to his break from reality and then suicide attempt.
I mean come on, right? Guts leaving lead directly to Griffith essentially burning down his life by sleeping with Charlotte (whether that was intentional and conscious or whether it was subconscious is up to interpretation, but either way it wasn’t an accident), then he hung onto his sanity by a thread through a year of torture solely by thinking about Guts and his feelings for him, then he was rescued by Guts who cut a bloody swathe through Midland to avenge him and killed a literal monster to defend him, and finally he was lead to believe that Guts was about to leave him again, while he was totally helpless and had absolutely nothing else in his life.
And then finally Guts’ touch caused him to feel the kind of despair that makes you to want to destroy the person causing it and become a monster just so you won’t feel it again.
Like, that’s a hell of an emotional roller coaster revolving around one person.
Goddamn don’t you just love this fucking story? God.
you're the only one 