Yeah I definitely see Femto/NeoGriff as basically an angel within the world of Berserk. The Godhand have been referred to as angels a few times too. I love the idea of him basically existing to fulfill humanity’s desires but his residual feelings for Guts are like a bug or flaw in the system that impedes God’s plans. Tho who knows?
Imo yeah becoming an apostle or a Godhand essentially strengthens your negative emotions and weakens/destroys your positive ones. “A fissure in your heart will open into which evil will surge,” Griffith explicitly losing his ability to feel empathy as he transforms, in the lost chapter Femto is described as being physically (well astral-ly?) made of evil, etc. So yeah, it literally changes you, but not necessarily into something completely new with no relation to your original self – it’s more like, an alternate version of you.
Are you asking me what Griffith wants, or just kind of musing outloud lol, I’m not sure based on your phrasing. But imo he just wants a kingdom/empire. I think NeoGriffith basically retained human Griffith’s ambition, but lost the very human reasons behind that ambition (guilt, despire for an escape from harsh reality, to feel like he has a reason for existing) in his transformation, making him kind of this eerie being who just exists to create a utopian empire.
But again, residual feelings for Guts in the mix can and should complicate that rly interestingly.
Oh, I’m glad! Since you haven’t seen it, to expand on what LOGH brings to the table from a queer perspective, I recommend the blog https://logh-icebergs.tumblr.com/FAQs
So if you do decide to
check it out your reward (besides the show itself) is reading that
amazing blog 🙂 They recommend beginning with the movie My Conquest is
the Sea of Stars and I would agree with that (it’s a prequel/pilot-ish
thing to the main OVA series)
oh nooooo this is exactly the kind of thing that will get me into a series lmao, this is perfect
Hmmm Farnese would still lead the holy iron chain knights, but they wouldn’t have a 2 year pilgramage trailing Guts. They do guard duty too come to think of it… maybe Mozgus goes around to all the kingdoms under the Holy See to be creepy and threatening and ominously suggest they start their own witchhunts etc to prove their devotion to the church or w/e, and they’re his personal guards. Maybe there’s some tension brewing between kingdoms wrt religion and there’s threats of holy wars breaking out. Or, ooh, Ganeshka would still be a thing, maybe this is the holy see’s attempt to unite kingdoms against the Kushans, since Ganeshka is amassing a huge terrifying army and starting to move west. W/e.
So Farnese ends up in Midland for a while. Casca would hate her at first for being a stuck up rich noblewoman who leads an army of guards and can’t even swing a sword, and since this is Griffith’s kingdom now Casca would be his right hand woman while Farnese is Mozgus’, so they might have to interact and feign politeness at like, the hospitality balls and during tense meetings.
(also lmao @ the idea of Griffith dealing with this shit, he’d absolutely hate having to humour someone like mozgus)
Farnese might be kind of in awe of Casca, as someone who clawed her way to power instead of just being appointed due to birth status, plus she’d be attracted to her, and both those things would manifest in hate lol bc Farnese is a mess. Casca would also be kind of jealous of how Farnese had everything handed to her, and would also feel attraction which would piss her off.
Also imagine Farnese spending hours ranting to Serpico about how horrible Casca is, and vice-versa w/ Casca complaining to Judeau, and both Serpico and Judeau being like, hmmmm.
I’d want to manufacture a scenario where Casca has to save Farnese. Political assassination shit? Slooooow burn where this rivalry continues until they go to war together, somehow ending up within interaction-distance of each other lol? Something lighter maybe – a hunting expedition meant to encourage comraderie gone wrong? Anyway smthn happens and Farnese transfers her devotion from God to Casca, and starts listening when she explains how fucked up the inquisition is, and they start bonding and realizing they have things in common despite wildly different upbringings, like parents who didn’t gaf and latching onto causes to feel fulfilled and being sole women surrounded by men, etc.
Idt Farnese’s worldview necessarily has to be shattered before she loses her faith, like in canon, bc I think her faith is just a coping mechanism for loneliness.
Also I rly like the idea of Casca being the one to save someone, instead of needing saving, and that being the start of a romance.
Ok that’s all I can think of for now, this is probably a longer response than you were expecting lol but I just love that love/hate shit so much.
lmao right? also like, i’m js Akira’s insistence on total war against Satan after Miki was killed was pretty strongly portrayed as negative. the message is an unsubtle war is bad, and both Akira and Satan end up seeing the other’s pov and meeting in the middle in the sequel. but I feel like those same fans probably just see the ending as Akira righteously fighting Ryo the evil gay to avenge his dead not gf and then tragically losing the fight so like, w/e.
anyway at this point, with saga all kind of up in the air and no one knowing if ryo and akira are even related to the characters in it, the ryokira story ended with them teaming up to defeat god after banging in hell so
Nah I disagree, Casca’s a reasonable person when she’s not like, exhausted to the point of suicide by leading a band of fugitives. She’d be a little jealous, sure, but not sacrifice-all-her-friends jealous. She’s known at least since Promrose Hall that Griffith was gonna marry Charlotte, and she’s known longer than that that Griffith’s in love with Guts, and in general she’s been more than capable of dealing with it, and even found herself gaining respect for both Guts and Charlotte on separate occasions, despite her jealousy.
I think she’d be happy as the general of Midland’s flagship army and she’d eventually move on and find someone else. I mean hey it’s canon that she has plenty of admirers, js
ngl tho… i’ve been thinking about Godhand Casca in this AU lol, so I definitely don’t completely disagree, we’re actually weirdly on the same wavelength there.
I’d just want something other than jealousy to send her over the edge into despair.
(…Homura Akemi from pmmm deserves to be namedropped) In any case, have you ever seen Legend of the Galactic Heroes? None of the pairings match the griffguts dynamic imo, but it’s a very interesting series in its own right and one character, Reinhard, has a few things in common with Griffith (though they’re not even close to being identical, to be fair). Sorry if you mentioned your opinions on LOGH already somewhere in the archive.
I’ve only vaguely heard of it, though I have seen that Griffith comparison once or twice. Looking it up really quick tells me that it actually does look like something I’d probably enjoy. It seems worth adding to my list of things I should check out next time I’m bored and in the mood for more involved than youtube cooking channels to watch lol, ty!
Evengelion is pretty interesting as a piece about mental illness and trauma/warfare that’s been written by an author who was depressed at the time he wrote it- as I greatly suspect Berserk is as well.
oh yeah i mean i’ve definitely argued that berserk is about trauma. i’ll chalk this up as another potential similarity, cool.
im pretty sure kaworu is slightly drawn from ryos character! he appears in one episode in the of series and has spawned. so. many. copies in future anime like every other eva character.
now /puts on my
glasses/ evangelion is imho about reconciliation of supposedly
impossible opposites that in actuality have shallow difference we
conjure in our minds. kaworu is an “angel” which is evangelions
definition of the antithesis of humanity; he loves and accepts shinji
for who he is,openly and unabashedly- but he isnt “human”, so their
love/relationship was always doomed from the start. in the finale of the
episode he appears in (spoiler) he convinces shinji to kill him. and
thats it.
watch evangelion for the women/girls and the woman in the machine allegory robots essentially
i should stream evangelion at this point
lmaoo i think theres a ton of religious themes and christian imagery a
la devilman and the subconscious of humanity being evil in berserk = the
human instrumentality project in evangelion but the context is
different…. in the beginning of berserk were shown hell as a swirling
vortex of souls that are all without ego and inseparable from one
another; in evangelion humanitys collectivization of souls as end game
situation is presented favorably…
oh also the literal
quote from the end of evangelion “this fated destruction will lead to a
joyous rebirth” gives me berserk vibes.
wow yeah it does sound like, relevant to fans of berserk and devilman for sure
like ngl as someone p much into these things for That Gay Shit with yk themes and good storytelling as just a nice bonus idk if it would hook me, but I’m sure it’s a classic for a reason and I might give it a try at some point. lmk if you ever do host a stream, i’d probably check it out if i’m around!
WHITE haired dude i will not stand for this erasure. no jk but yeah that’s pretty much it. it’s just that the dynamic between kaworu and shinji is very different from, for example, guts and griffith’s dynamic so i’m struggling to see the similarity beyond hair colour and idk like shit happening on a cosmic scale or w/e
oh yeah fair enough. i never got into it bc i heard kaworu is only in it briefly so it didn’t seem worth it to me lol. i remember seeing kaworu on a ‘characters who caused the apocalypse bc they’re gay’ list also including ryo and griffith (and some madoka character idk) and like, that is completely not the case in either devilman or berserk so ngl it wouldn’t surprise me if a lot of the other comparisons are pretty shallow or not applicable.
evangelion is nothing like berserk and devilman idk where people are getting this from
i’ve seen it on lots of lists of things inspired by devilman but idk anything about it other than there’s a blond dude who’s in love with the protag and also the world ends i think? and mechas. and there’s a terrible masturbation scene. that’s the extent of my knowledge lol.
honestly griffguts is a real gem in manga, there’s not much that comes close. there’s manga similar to berserk in general but griffguts-like relationships are hard to find. and trust me i’ve read a lot of manga lol
yeah i believe this lol. like, i’m a huge hero/villain, and/or friends -> enemies ship fan across varying types of media and griffguts rly stands out as both uniquely good, uniquely intense, and fairly unique in dynamic.
Unfortunately I don’t. I would’ve said Devilman but you beat me to it, and I haven’t even read/seen Evangelion myself lol.
If anyone else wants to jump in and suggest something for Anon please do! My manga knowledge is way too thin to be useful here lol. And ngl I’m also v interested if anyone has recs.
Eventually I’m going to actually sit down and rly suss out the light/dark stuff in Berserk, but for now I’m just gonna say:
in the context of Guts’ feelings towards Griffith, light is the companionship he lost, and the longing for it, and therefore I’m calling Guts’ desire to kill Femto/Griffith his own way of trying to carve out his heart.
1. This is another one of my favourite expresions in Berserk tbh
2. I’m not saying this is deliberate, I’m not sure it would even be in character, but I can’t help but imagine this as Guts taunting Femto/Griffith about the fact that he was in love with him, his life was destroyed because of him, Guts drove him to make the sacrifice by leaving him, and Guts knows it.
Like yeah logically it’s just Guts being pissed off over the fact that Griffith sacrificed him to become a demon, especially with the follow up “thanks to me who’s fighting an army of the dead because of you,” but man, I’m js that knowing how the Golden Age goes gives this line potential Layers. You’re where you are now because this petty existence had all that power over you.
On the other hand this whole scene exists to set up Griffith making the sacrifice to bury his fragile heart bc of whatever went down w/ Guts, so like, it could be that deep?
Plus Femto’s response:
Just gonna reiterate that you mean absolutely nothing to me.
Whether that’s what Guts meant to say or not, I’m pretty sure he’s well aware of the irony of Femto emphasising his insignificance now, considering everything that went down between them. He might even stubbornly refuse to go back to post-Speech-to-Charlotte Guts, clinging to the fact that, no, I meant something to you and you meant something to me, and we both know that.
But then he would also have to know that it’s his fault that Griffith went this far. Which we know that he does, but idk, whenever I re-read the manga I feel like we should get to see more guilt from him.
Anyway, I don’t think Miura was fully taking all this into consideration while writing these first few chapters, but in retrospect you have to think about all the layers of meaning behind nearly every word Femto & Guts exchange. Like, this is off topic, but it’s in these chapters that Guts first finds out what sacrificing someone really means, and he doesn’t really react in any significant way, when realistically he should.
To be fair he’s unconscious when the Godhand actually explain the sacrifice and tell the Count that a sacrifice has to be someone you love so much it’s like they’re part of you. Which imo is kind of a hmmmm in and of itself, like there’s no reason Guts had to be unconscious at any point at all since he could barely move anyway, except to miss the explanation of who can be sacrificed. When he does wake up he just lies there and listens to the Count’s backstory before finally telling Puck to heal him. So I feel like it kind of suggests that Guts knowing that info might affect some things.
But otherwise yeah ia. I’m actually kind of rly into the idea of Guts stubbornly clinging to the knowledge that he was important to Griffith, hard earned as it was, now that you mention that. At least between the Eclipse and Griffith’s rebirth.
It’s like… idk I think there’s an argument that he left the Hawks because he knew he did mean something to Griffith, and that gave him the confidence to believe he could truly become his bff4ever if he changed his whole life lol. Whereas if he thought Griffith genuinely couldn’t give a shit about him he wouldn’t even try.
And then I think a similar way of thinking could be informing his behaviour during the Black Swordsman stuff. Like, I know I meant something to you, deny it all you want, I’m going to find you and force you to acknowledge me.
But after NGriff ditches him I think he kind of gives that up? Which is why he’s able to put his revenge thing on hold – it starts to feel futile when he genuinely believes NGriff feels nothing at all towards him. (Which is why that beating heart is a game changer in waiting js.)
idk lol I’m just thinking outloud.
And yeah like, it’s textual that he feels guilty for Griffith’s breakdown, from letting Casca stab him to:
But I do wish we saw more of that post-Eclipse other than the recurring moments when he thinks about Griffith kneeling in the snow and mopes lol. It kind of makes sense to me that we don’t see Guts feeling guilty after the Eclipse because I feel like the point of the Eclipse rape was to piss Guts off enough that he’d basically channel his guilt into rage, but I feel like we should still see more inner conflict. Not that we don’t see any, but yk, I always want more.
Ohhh, man, I remembered he got knocked out but I thought we didn’t get to see the exact moment when he came to … so I thought, you know, we don’t know exactly how much he’s heard?
But I went to check and this is him twitching awake after all the juicy details have been laid out:
Which is honestly even better than him hearing all that and not reacting.
He does get to hear these parts though:
I honestly like to interpret his expression here as loathing directed specifically @ the God Hand sans Griffith/Femto, for waltzing in and ruining everything lol.
And I agree with everything else you brought up! Like, Guts can actually be pretty confident and even cocky, so it’s not like he’s constantly putting himself down. He’s just a little naive, bless his heart.
I can’t WAIT for Neo-Griff to finally snap lol
It’s gotta happen. Even if Guts’ storyline is wall-to-wall disappointment I know in my soul NGriff’s is going somewhere good.
And yeah I’m sure the parallels aren’t lost on Guts lol, but i guess it’s not quite as direct as essentially saying ‘being able to sacrifice someone is proof that you love them.’ Also yeah I’m into that interpretation of his anger there, like imo he hates Femto on a personal level for being an evil version of the dude he loves, but he def hates the rest of the Godhand for facilitating it. His reaction when seeing Slan in the troll cave was even more overwhelmingly rage-y than when he saw NGriff on the Hill of Swords, eg.
I’m not a native english speaker, so please sorry if i wrote smth wrong.
There is one fic but it’s in russian. It’s short, gen and actually just humor fic. Guts had bet with Griff that he would learn how to read. And he goes to their band chaplain and convince him to teach him by some porn book which Griff gave him.
There are some good berserk fics in russian, and at least three good griffguts fics.
That sounds cute lol, but damn, monolingualism strikes again 😦 google translate just isn’t the same. Oh well, I’m happy for you and other Russian speakers who can enjoy them, and there are a few good fics in English too so I shouldn’t complain lol. I just always wish there were more.
1. This is another one of my favourite expresions in Berserk tbh
2. I’m not saying this is deliberate, I’m not sure it would even be in character, but I can’t help but imagine this as Guts taunting Femto/Griffith about the fact that he was in love with him, his life was destroyed because of him, Guts drove him to make the sacrifice by leaving him, and Guts knows it.
Like yeah logically it’s just Guts being pissed off over the fact that Griffith sacrificed him to become a demon, especially with the follow up “thanks to me who’s fighting an army of the dead because of you,” but man, I’m js that knowing how the Golden Age goes gives this line potential Layers. You’re where you are now because this petty existence had all that power over you.
On the other hand this whole scene exists to set up Griffith making the sacrifice to bury his fragile heart bc of whatever went down w/ Guts, so like, it could be that deep?
Plus Femto’s response:
Just gonna reiterate that you mean absolutely nothing to me.
Whether that’s what Guts meant to say or not, I’m pretty sure he’s well aware of the irony of Femto emphasising his insignificance now, considering everything that went down between them. He might even stubbornly refuse to go back to post-Speech-to-Charlotte Guts, clinging to the fact that, no, I meant something to you and you meant something to me, and we both know that.
But then he would also have to know that it’s his fault that Griffith went this far. Which we know that he does, but idk, whenever I re-read the manga I feel like we should get to see more guilt from him.
Anyway, I don’t think Miura was fully taking all this into consideration while writing these first few chapters, but in retrospect you have to think about all the layers of meaning behind nearly every word Femto & Guts exchange. Like, this is off topic, but it’s in these chapters that Guts first finds out what sacrificing someone really means, and he doesn’t really react in any significant way, when realistically he should.
To be fair he’s unconscious when the Godhand actually explain the sacrifice and tell the Count that a sacrifice has to be someone you love so much it’s like they’re part of you. Which imo is kind of a hmmmm in and of itself, like there’s no reason Guts had to be unconscious at any point at all since he could barely move anyway, except to miss the explanation of who can be sacrificed. When he does wake up he just lies there and listens to the Count’s backstory before finally telling Puck to heal him. So I feel like it kind of suggests that Guts knowing that info might affect some things.
But otherwise yeah ia. I’m actually kind of rly into the idea of Guts stubbornly clinging to the knowledge that he was important to Griffith, hard earned as it was, now that you mention that. At least between the Eclipse and Griffith’s rebirth.
It’s like… idk I think there’s an argument that he left the Hawks because he knew he did mean something to Griffith, and that gave him the confidence to believe he could truly become his bff4ever if he changed his whole life lol. Whereas if he thought Griffith genuinely couldn’t give a shit about him he wouldn’t even try.
And then I think a similar way of thinking could be informing his behaviour during the Black Swordsman stuff. Like, I know I meant something to you, deny it all you want, I’m going to find you and force you to acknowledge me.
But after NGriff ditches him I think he kind of gives that up? Which is why he’s able to put his revenge thing on hold – it starts to feel futile when he genuinely believes NGriff feels nothing at all towards him. (Which is why that beating heart is a game changer in waiting js.)
idk lol I’m just thinking outloud.
And yeah like, it’s textual that he feels guilty for Griffith’s breakdown, from letting Casca stab him to:
But I do wish we saw more of that post-Eclipse other than the recurring moments when he thinks about Griffith kneeling in the snow and mopes lol. It kind of makes sense to me that we don’t see Guts feeling guilty after the Eclipse because I feel like the point of the Eclipse rape was to piss Guts off enough that he’d basically channel his guilt into rage, but I feel like we should still see more inner conflict. Not that we don’t see any, but yk, I always want more.
i thought about drawing this over a year ago. contributing to a berserk/simpsons crossover book finally gave me an excuse to draw it. this is not my proudest moment.
For sure! And this is perfect timing bc it’s a super boring night for me, so ty!
Ok this is not including the moments that got on this list, so this is missing a few obvious contenders, but w/e. Also “do I need a reason” *significant sexy look* would be on this list but I’m counting it on the last list lol, even though technically it was a memory of that scene.
And I’m doing top 12 instead of 10 because there are so many good moments.
12.
This is still what Guts wants most, what drives him.
11.
Yeah of all the post-torture moments this might seem like an odd choice but I just love how fucking dark and hardcore this is, for Griffith’s sake. Like Guts’ whole rampage through Midland could be here but this is the best moment.
10.
It’s just… so blatant.
9.
Guts… buddy…
8.
No matter how many times I read it every single time I turn the page it takes my breath away lmao.
7.
Oh Guts, you could’ve had it all.
6.
Way to make your choice to save Casca all about Griffith. But also this is so good because it’s the clearest moment of regret, and also it’s Griffith’s heart, Griffith’s heart is what he had in the palm of his hand.
5.
The true relationship establishing moment. This is what they’re about and this is what I’m about.
4.
Can you believe. Like, that fucking close up of Guts… Femto… buddy…
3.
Holy shit dude.
2.
This could’ve been the turning point. This moment is everything, this is Griffith needing Guts more than the dream. This is the moment that makes Berserk.
1.
This needs no explanation.
I’m now bored at work and thinking about what Godhand Casca would be like in an AU where Griffith was carrying the behelit for her
I’m thinking she’d immediately take over Ubik’s job bc she’s good at reading people and she’s one of the few berserk characters willing to talk about what she sees lol, and if she aimed that at sussing out people’s weaknesses she could completely destroy whoever she was talking to. like i bet she’d be fantastic at convincing people to make sacrifices
also i’m thinking scary thick exoskeleton armour with like, spikes or something, but with her head and face bare and not very changed, other than more demon-y eyes. she’d project a sense of immense strength. maybe wings, bc most of the godhand have wings.
Also she’s very hot blooded as a human but with the knowledge that she’s completely invulnerable as a Godhand she might be a little colder and deliberate? I think a lot of her rage is rooted in overcompensating for her feelings of weakness, yk, so it makes sense to me that she might be less likely to lose it and lash out and more likely to express her rage in precision strikes, whether verbal or physical lol. Like eg the way she screamed at Adon while she was feverish and losing the fight vs the way she smugly took him out when she was at full strength.
also godhand casca/slan. that evil butch/evil femme aesthetic. js js.
who else has thoughts on what casca’s inner darkness would be like?
1. This is another one of my favourite expresions in Berserk tbh
2. I’m not saying this is deliberate, I’m not sure it would even be in character, but I can’t help but imagine this as Guts taunting Femto/Griffith about the fact that he was in love with him, his life was destroyed because of him, Guts drove him to make the sacrifice by leaving him, and Guts knows it.
Like yeah logically it’s just Guts being pissed off over the fact that Griffith sacrificed him to become a demon, especially with the follow up “thanks to me who’s fighting an army of the dead because of you,” but man, I’m js that knowing how the Golden Age goes gives this line potential Layers. You’re where you are now because this petty existence had all that power over you.
On the other hand this whole scene exists to set up Griffith making the sacrifice to bury his fragile heart bc of whatever went down w/ Guts, so like, it could be that deep?
Plus Femto’s response:
Just gonna reiterate that you mean absolutely nothing to me.
Don’t bother saying you’re sorry Why don’t you come in Smoke all my cigarettes again Every time I get no further How long has it been? Come on in now, wipe your feet on my dreams You take up my time Like some cheap magazine When I could have been learning something Oh well, you know what I mean, oh I’ve done this before And I will do it again Come on and kill me baby While you smile like a friend Oh and I’ll come running Just to do it again You are the last drink I never should have drunk You are the body hidden in the trunk You are the habit I can’t seem to kick You are my secrets on the front page every week You are the car I never should have bought You are the dream I never should have caught You are the cut that makes me hide my face You are the party that makes me feel my age Like a car crash I can see but I just can’t avoid Like a plane I’ve been told I never should board Like a film that’s so bad but I’ve got to stay till the end Let me tell you now: it’s lucky for you that we’re friends.
i just can’t get over the fact that you started writing that awesome meta on what’s gonna happen along with skullknight’s role and you didn’t even remember that flora had suggested that as well lol
lmao i’m glad you appreciate that fact lol, honestly it was a real fist pump moment when i coincidentally re-read this part after coming up with the idea of sk and danann plotting behelit shennanigans together
you're the only one 