SAME, some of the expressions he draws are just jaw-droppingly good. Like, how do you perfectly convey the feelings of someone who has just decided to sacrifice the person they love because that love drove them into despair? i have no idea, but damn if he didn’t pull it off:
I’d definitely say expressions are Miura’s biggest strength. Maybe it’s bc I’m not an artist lol, but it’s like magic to me how effectively he can convey complex emotion.
And yeah like you mention, there are some really effective moments when Guts looks so young and child-like even though his default appearance is definitely v adult throughout most of the manga. And it always feels natural, never off-model. Just like little hints of vulnerability that create a v strong emotional impression.
On the more headcanony side I think that like, Guts would be possessive but he wouldn’t really think of it as possessiveness – it’d feel like a natural extention of their v exclusive, v intense relationship. Griffith would be possessive in turn ofc.
And it wouldn’t manifest in like, being jealous of Charlotte if Griffith still plans to marry her for power. I figure they’d talk about that and Guts would understand it’s business lol, he wouldn’t be threatened by Charlotte. But at the same time he would demand Griffith’s attention and time. Maybe not literally demand lol, but he’s really emotionally needy lbr and I think he’d get sulky if he didn’t get enough time with Griffith bc he’s busy being a king or w/e. We see that in canon even, when he tries to visit him after Zodd but can’t bc of the nobles.
But then like in canon Griffith would reassure him and go out of his way to give him that time and attention because well, he’s also needy and they’re both obsessed with each other and neither wants to spend time apart.
So things like Griffith putting off some king stuff to laze around in bed with Guts would be perfect for Guts. Or things like having sex on the throne at three am when the room’s empty lol, or leaving tea with Charlotte early because the Raider Captain has something important to “discuss” with him. Guts would want to make his claim on Griffith, and have Griffith show that he’s the most important.
But again like, he wouldn’t express that, and Griffith (unless something drastic has gone down) wouldn’t admit to himself that Guts is the most important aspect of his life. But it would still show through in little moments and Guts would notice them (yk assuming no Promrose Hall speech colouring his perception etc etc).
Sexually you got leaving marks under clothes, fucking him hard enough that he still feels it the next day, teasing and drawing it out as a way of focusing Griffith’s attention wholly on him. Like, considering how needy they both are when it comes to wanting the others’ attention and regard and desire, sex could get ridiculously intense lol. We’ve talked about this before a bit but yk it holds true. They just both want to be wanted by the other so badly lol.
On the more meta-y side, I’d argue that their relationship comes with a side of possessiveness from both – again, as a kind of natural byproduct of the singular intensity of it. They are each others’ only one, and they both want to be each others’ only one. I don’t think there’s a lot of like, canon elements that demonstrate Guts being possessive to the same explicit extent of eg Griffith’s “if I can’t have him, I don’t care,” but imo it’s there under the surface.
Guts wants to make Griffith look at him. At first that’s the whole quest for a dream thing, but after the Eclipse it’s his revenge quest. He wants to kill him because, more than anything else, he wants acknowledgement that he matters to him.
This hold on Griffith is exactly what Guts wanted, and still wants.
It doesn’t manifest as jealousy, like we see him trying to set Griffith and Casca up for a while, but it’s more like, yk, that need for attention. He’s possessive of Griffith’s priorities. The reason I think he’s ok with setting Griffith and Casca up is because lover isn’t a category he can see himself fitting into, and moreover, true friend and equal trumps lover anyway as far as he’s concerned. His competition is Griffith’s dream, not Griffith’s other relationships.
I mean you can split hairs on the definition of possessiveness and whether Guts’ feelings count if it’s less jealousy and more wanting to be the most important person to Griffith, but yk I think it’s an element.
hooo boy ok i can no longer interact with you here, i mean come on what on earth makes you think i’ll be receptive to or ok with the kind of misogynist shit you just said
i mean beyond not being a shitty person, like, read the damn room
Why should it be Casca? I don’t get it why people want her to do that.
really?? surely the reason you want Femto to suffer/be punished is because of the Eclipse rape… which Casca was the victim of. People want her to get revenge because she’s the one who was hurt the most. Meanwhile Guts cast her aside while using her suffering as an excuse to lash out, so I’d say he really doesn’t deserve to avenge anyone.
Whether Miura intended Guts’ actions to be fully interpreted that way idk, but we’re at least meant to condemn him for leaving Casca in a cave for 2 years while running around killing monsters.
Anyway my ideal ending is very far from yours, and I’m kind of surprised considering you introduced yourself to me as a huge Griffith/NeoGriffith fan. But yk, you do you, we clearly have very different priorities in what we want from the story.
My ideal ending is Femto dying in worst way possible or getting trapped in some endless loop of suffering and misery. “If Guts does happily kill NGriff without hesitation, that’ll be a v dark ending that indicates he’s lost his humanity, imo.” I like how some fans keep idealizing Guts like some sort of a righteous shounen hero… Dude is literally a savage. Look at how he treats his enemies or the apostles who have done way less shit in compare with Griffith.
I’m responding mainly to this part so I’m not c/ping the other messages (also i think your last message got cut off btw) but like, yeah Guts is a very dark character, but again that’s framed as a bad thing. We’re supposed to think he’s a huge dick during the Black Swordsman arc, eg. We’re meant to see his darkness as a sign that he’s close to becoming exactly the same as, or even worse than, the monsters he fights. He sexually assaulted Casca in part to feel “closer to” Griffith lol.
Like, my favourite Guts is when he’s at his most dark, but that would suck if the story was totally unselfaware and we were meant to cheer him on. In the first chapter when he tortures the snake dude, it’s a reversal of expectation, because we’re meant to find Guts frightening and to nearly pity the monster in that moment. Similarly when he tortures the Count in front of his daughter – except that is also much clearer in showing that Guts is pretty pathetic at that point, eg:
I think Miura kind of lost that sense of patheticness (another good example is the blatant comparisons to Vargas) after the Eclipse, which is a shame imo. But while his dark side gets a bit cooler (the Beast of Darkness, the armour), it’s still like… unambiguously negative. We’re not supposed to root for the part of him that wants to kill his friends.
Guts’ growth as a character is associated with making friends and not seeking revenge, Guts’ monstrousness is associated with going on a revenge rampage.
Anyway basically I think Berserk is more complex than a simple good vs evil revenge story. I think it’s very likely that Guts is going to backslide into revenge mode, losing himself to the armour and going after Griffith after some bad thing happens in Elfhelm, that’s like my major prediction for the future lol, but I don’t think it’s going to end with Guts self-assuredly “punishing” Griffith and living happily ever after.
Oh also there’s this:
Part of his decision to save Casca instead of keep seeking revenge is realizing he doesn’t really deserve revenge.
Like, I argue his whole Black Swordsman campaign was way less “righteously avenge the hawks and casca” and way more “I am upset so I am going to kill every monster I can find until I reach Griffith because swinging my sword makes me feel better.” And it’s an attitude he needs to grow out of.
Anyway aside from all that if anyone gets revenge and kills Griffith it should be Casca imo.
Like, Guts feeling possessive of
Griffith as a response to Casca telling him that Griffith was
emotionally dependent on him? yk the knowledge that Griffith ended up
in a torture chamber because of him, whether he’s ready to acknowledge
that or not, basically making him feel like he’s allowed to express that
possessiveness bc Griffith has ott feelings for him back? Because if so I could def see that.
We see Guts musing on this fact in the tunnels on the way to Griffith too. I definitely think it’s informing a lot of his behaviour here, and in the lead-up to the Eclipse, maybe not consciously since he keeps trying to bury that realization (because guilt), but definitely subconsciously.
I also think it’s the main source of the rage that fuels his rampage through Midland, killing hundreds of soldiers and a monster. It’s a way of ignoring his guilt by turning the feeling outward onto acceptable targets. You could maybe also add that it’s why he snaps at Casca – he already has the urge to lash out at something, and a minute later the torturer shows up and then he’s able to fully express his feelings lol.
Also plz feel free to explain further if I missed something, I want to know your thoughts and idk if I interpreted what you mean right.
I was hoping you would make another post to respond to that ahaha.
Well what I actually meant is for Guts to kill Femto. Because Neo Griffith is apparently closer to a temporal illusionary image that appears in this world, just like.. Well, Neo. To actually kill him you should be able to go beyond the matrix, or as it was described in this case, go “outside” the story of the physical world. So even if NGriff is killed (which I doubt he would even mind) he would be still
existing as Femto in
the astral dimension. In order to bring the story to its ultimate
conclusion, Guts would prpbably need to face Femto in his true form. I
just can’t wait to see what happens from that point on… I hope Guts is
able to realize his revenge.
I think this makes sense as a theory but we don’t really have enough information right now about how the metaphysical world works in Berserk to confidently say what would happen if NeoGriffith was killed.
Like eg I’ve seen a lot of people who think that NGriff can change into Femto and that’s what he did when he killed Ganeshka, but imo we only saw him as Femto then because that’s how Ganeshka saw him, because he could see his “true” or “spiritual” or whatever form, because they were both ascended beings. But yk it’s all up in the air still.
I feel like Guts vs Femto on the astral plane would work in a different story with a greater focus on action, but Berserk is driven by complex emotions and relationships moreso than straightforward action so I feel v confident that the climax between them is going to have a strong emotional component. NeoGriffith has his inconveniently unfrozen heart, while Guts has his inconvenient mixed feelings, and I think both of those aspects are going to inform the climax.
I kinda figure that the big action sequence part of the climax is going to be Guts vs Zodd actually. I’d be surprised if we saw any actual physical fighting between Guts and Griffith/Femto/NeoGriffith, at least beyond a v emotionally-driven third duel kinda thing, along the lines of the second duel where the victor is decided by who’s less emotionally compromised.
iirc there’s a similar instance in the anime where during the zodd fight (i think), guts is at a loss for words when it comes to how he regards griffith, relationship-wise. he says something like;
“griffith is my … he’s … my …”
that’s twice the anime verbalizes that they have a complex relationship, even to outsiders.
i mean this COULD be read as julius failing to spit out some arbitrary word regarding guts’ status or rank but i think this is intentional tbh. we’ve seen julius witness (at least twice) how guts gives no shit about class or important people and really only cares about griffith’s protection and honor. guts was ready to obliterate julius when he smacked griffith. and during the failed assassination attempt, julius saw how upset guts was over griffith. it’s quite possible he’s just too fucked up to make a coherent sentence here too lol … but i am choosing to believe miura left this ambiguous on purpose, even if we’re only supposed to acknowledge this/these subtle hint(s) subconsciously. it’s that constant nagging, plain as day question in golden age berserk, adding fuel to the driving force of the plot and keeping it in the back of our minds throughout, (if not front and center).
Thank you for this post. (lol I meant to say “Why you SEE it in that way” sorry).
I always saw it in that was as if he didn’t want other people to view and be shocked at what was done to his face.
Either way current Guts wouldn’t hesitate to deform Griffith’s face in an even worse way… I’d fucking love to look at what he does with him when he has the power.
If that’s the impression you get from the manga then fair enough, but that reading never occurred to me until I watched the 3rd ova lol.
And tbh I definitely think Guts would hesitate
Also letting Rickert hold him back on the Hill of Swords, deliberately trying to let go of his desire for revenge for the sake of the Elfhelm trip, and the way he really sucks at finishing this sentence:
The way he separates Griffith from Femto, and usually pictures Femto as an empty faceless exoskeleton.
And only ever expresses longing and regret towards original Griffith:
And NeoGriffith looking “as if he’d been stolen from the past, the way he used to be” throws him completely off because it makes it harder to separate the different versions of him.
Basically imo his feelings towards NeoGriffith are far from simple, and I don’t think he’d find it emotionally easy to kill him.
And moreover his desire to kill is what gives the Beast of Darkness strength, so it’s framed as a negative thing in the story.
If Guts does happily kill NGriff without hesitation, that’ll be a v dark ending that indicates he’s lost his humanity, imo.
I really loved this moment as well. I didnt feel like they ruined it in the adaptations though, why do you it is this way?
imo the manga reads like Guts basically snarling in a v near to snapping rage, irrationally yelling at Casca to back off as she approaches, in what feels almost like a reversal of this moment
Guts isn’t blaming anyone (well other than himself), but essentially he’s angry about what’s happened to Griffith and lashes out for a moment indiscriminately in a possessive/protective way. I feel like he’d have the same reaction to anyone who took a step forward at that moment. And it fits neatly into the whole weird everyone’s jealous of everyone situation that’s been developing during the rescue mission too.
Idk about the original Japanese wording and delivery in the adaptions, but imo the anime dub sounds like Guts telling Casca to stay back because she needs to be protected from seeing Griffith’s scarred face, yk it sounds like he’s mainly concerned about Casca’s reaction. And the ova sub and dub give me the same vibe a little less overtly. “Just stay back” or something along those lines, + in the dub it’s delivered with concern moreso than seething anger.
yk this might be my favourite under appreciated moment
both adaptions ruin it but the manga version is *chef kiss*
“
WHAT IS YOUR DEAL NEOGRIFF WHO ARE YOU??” – Me during the whole post-eclipse arcs. It drives me crazy because he is impossible to read. Neither are we being exposed to anything that goes inside his head.
Miura keeping him so ambiguous is part of what makes me think we’re headed to a big interesting reveal tbh. Like, there’ve been a lot of suggestive moments where his emotions are deliberately hidden, like watching Rickert escape Falconia. Guess we’ll have to wait and see.
Oh actually I do have one thing I can add about NeoGriffith, that I’ve been kind of thinking for a while but haven’t posted because it’s potentially controversial lol
But I think you could make an argument that NeoGriffith is… Griffith. As though transforming from Femto back into a flesh and blood body returned his whole range of emotions as well, basically if NGriff has the same emotional and psychological make-up of human Griffith.
Like, imo he is exactly what Griffith would be if:
he talked to god and god told him he’s not responsible for anything and everything he chooses to do is the correct fate-sanctioned thing to happen and he’s basically just a pawn
he spent a few years as a demonic embodiment of the dark side of himself and humanity, with the rest of his humanity stripped away
while he was that demon, he committed an unforgiveable and unjustifiable act of evil for no reason but spite
he is removed from the rest of humanity because he has another level of awareness/partially exists on another metaphysical plane
he made the choice to sacrifice everyone he loves both to achieve his dream and to cut out his heart because his feelings for guts ruined his life and sent him into suicidal despair
Like, basically NeoGriffith as Griffith in deep, deep, deep denial lmao, and finding it really easy to stay in denial because god gave him a thumbs up and he’s extra detached from his human emotions due to being a godlike entity with intimate knowledge of fate/the astral plane/his place in the world/etc.
I say this as someone who genuinely believes that human Griffith was more or less a good person. But I still think it would absolutely be in character for a Griffith who remembers being Femto to tell Guts he regrets nothing and then leave to do his thing.
So in this way you could say that NeoGriffith is the extreme fantasy story version of a dude who deliberately detaches himself from his own emotions for the sake of achieving a goal.
But to be clear I don’t think this is actually the case in canon.
I think NGriff probably actually has magically dampened emotions due to the sacrifice, and due to having magically transformed a few times most of human Griffith is genuinely lost, like we see him losing pieces of himself, and I don’t think he got those pieces back.
But like, I think NGriff kind of works on another level as not just the embodiment of the image Griffith portrayed, but how he maintained it, ie, by denying all his feelings. And I find the idea of NGriff as Griffith-in-extreme-denial really like… interesting and fun lol, in a headcanon way.
@bthump whew it’s been a while since ive talked berserk w/you but i had to reply cause this. this is so much more than a hc to me because i’ve always felt it HAD to be (at least semi) canon that neogriff HAS feeling but that he chooses to bury/ignore them instead.
‘it seems i’m finally free’ MY ASS.
femto was the emotionally distant one, or at least the ‘complete monster’ version of griffith that (could) truly rise above his mortal feelings and he still was acting out of spite over guts and casca and all that hurt he had to endure (partly/MOSTLY over them) when he was still human.
it blows my mind when people argue griffith now has no feelings when the whole driving force of the entire golden age and after when everything went to shit was because of the sheer depth of his emotions for guts because let’s be real that’s all we’re here for) and the fact that he tried (in vain) to bury them- which then caused them to come out later in uglier ways.
(there’s that quote by Freud right…)
“Unexpressed emotions will never die. They are buried alive and will come forth later in uglier ways.”
AKA berserk: a summary.
I agree 100% with neogriff being in denial tho, like wouldn’t he love it to be free of his obsession with guts? wouldn’t the old griffith who had his heart more or less cut to pieces over his doomed love for guts give anything to be free of those feeling so he could pursue that dream of his that killed thousands? OF COURSE HE WOULD. but that’s not the reality of it. not even now that he’s gained this new body and his new kingdom.
like there is no doubt in my mind that consciously or subconsciously everything neogriff does or will do plot-wise is not going to at some point be overshadowed by his eternal longing for guts.
and anyone who disagrees can fight me.
If he did lose parts of himself that’s only right, like a dark reflection of guts who continuously tries to rid himself of whatever’s left of his love for griffith that could stand in the way of him absolutely destroying him. (i mean- counting the parts before the happy boat trip from hell. like- when things were still, yknow, good.)
and yeah maybe there is ancient demon magic sealing griff’s heart from unwanted emotions that could stand in the way of HIM achieving HIS goals but like- didn’t it throb tho- bthump– when he saw guts again? even if it’s at 0.01% capacity I’LL TAKE IT. It’s enough, even if it’s a sorry remnant of everything there used to be i’m sure eventually it’ll be enough to fuck up all his plans, i mean with his invulnerability now honestly what else could cripple neogriff now other than his heart itself? SO POETIC.
(also i remember when ppl used to send you song recs?? they were so good man i made an entire playlist. here’s another one: say it right by nelly furtado ‘oh you don’t mean nothing at all to me’ ugh so perfect for this little piece of meta, i listened to it on repeat typing this lmao)
Oh yeah I mean like, I 100% believe that NeoGriffith still has some emotion lol, I’d be willing to bet real money that we’re headed straight to a reveal that he’s not nearly as over Guts as he wants to be. But I think that canonically he’s somewhere between “Griffith in turbo denial mode” and “totally emotionless shell.”
Like, dude is going to do something irrational when Guts shows up again. That’s just how narratives work man, it’s gotta happen. I’ll join you in that fight lol. So I completely agree with you.
Also ty for the rec, it totally works for me. and lol ikwym the recs ppl sent me made my berserk playlist like twice as long, it’s gr8.
you're the only one 