mostly berserk meta. i'm into berserk mainly for griffguts and i'm a huge fan of griffith.
Author: hawkville
Oh actually I do have one thing I can add about NeoGriffith, that I’ve been kind of thinking for a while but haven’t posted because it’s potentially controversial lol
But I think you could make an argument that NeoGriffith is… Griffith. As though transforming from Femto back into a flesh and blood body returned his whole range of emotions as well, basically if NGriff has the same emotional and psychological make-up of human Griffith.
Like, imo he is exactly what Griffith would be if:
he talked to god and god told him he’s not responsible for anything and everything he chooses to do is the correct fate-sanctioned thing to happen and he’s basically just a pawn
he spent a few years as a demonic embodiment of the dark side of himself and humanity, with the rest of his humanity stripped away
while he was that demon, he committed an unforgiveable and unjustifiable act of evil for no reason but spite
he is removed from the rest of humanity because he has another level of awareness/partially exists on another metaphysical plane
he made the choice to sacrifice everyone he loves both to achieve his dream and to cut out his heart because his feelings for guts ruined his life and sent him into suicidal despair
Like, basically NeoGriffith as Griffith in deep, deep, deep denial lmao, and finding it really easy to stay in denial because god gave him a thumbs up and he’s extra detached from his human emotions due to being a godlike entity with intimate knowledge of fate/the astral plane/his place in the world/etc.
I say this as someone who genuinely believes that human Griffith was more or less a good person. But I still think it would absolutely be in character for a Griffith who remembers being Femto to tell Guts he regrets nothing and then leave to do his thing.
So in this way you could say that NeoGriffith is the extreme fantasy story version of a dude who deliberately detaches himself from his own emotions for the sake of achieving a goal.
But to be clear I don’t think this is actually the case in canon.
I think NGriff probably actually has magically dampened emotions due to the sacrifice, and due to having magically transformed a few times most of human Griffith is genuinely lost, like we see him losing pieces of himself, and I don’t think he got those pieces back.
But like, I think NGriff kind of works on another level as not just the embodiment of the image Griffith portrayed, but how he maintained it, ie, by denying all his feelings. And I find the idea of NGriff as Griffith-in-extreme-denial really like… interesting and fun lol, in a headcanon way.
said:
What are your thoughts about the current Griffith? In my eyes he has
become like the Snow Queen – Beautiful, yet cold and empty. Practically
unable to experience emotion and lacking in any humanity. A pretty
doll. A shell. A walking facade. What do you think?
My answer to this ties into the other thing you asked me to expand on, re: Griffith and contrasts, so I guess I’m just kind of doing both answers at once.
Basically I agree, but I think there’s more to NeoGriffith (ie post Femto, resurrected, godlike Griffith) than that.
Griffith as a human is so interesting to me in part because he’s full of contrasts, which is one of those hooks that really get me interested in a character. And those contrasts mostly stem from this attitude right here:
He hides away all of his weaknesses, his negative thoughts, the truth of what actually drives him on (guilt), his self-loathing, even from himself. He smiles and portrays an image of perfection so well that he essentially believes it himself most of the time.
So you have things like the Promrose Hall speech, where he’s fully embodying that image of himself:
vs Casca’s flashback, which is a glimpse of his darker, much more fucked up self underneath, and directly contradicts the above:
So you have the contrast between the perfect leader, the guy who can take down an army of 30,000 with 5,000, the guy who waxes poetic about how great dreams are, the guy who is this fucking cool while burning a queen alive:
And the guy who self-harms after prostituting himself to a pedophile to prevent as many deaths of his followers as possible despite claiming he doesn’t feel responsible for them, the guy who falls to pieces and destroys his own life when Guts leaves, the guy who hates himself and desperately wants to be told he’s not a monster:
And both are Griffith. Griffith isn’t just faking his confidence, he genuinely is that confident. He genuinely believes that his dream is a worthwhile pursuit in and of itself, and he can’t call any of his followers friends because they’re clinging to his dream rather than finding their own dreams.
He’s portrayed that image so fully that it’s a real part of him. But at the same time, sometimes it shatters and reveals the exact opposite underneath: the self loathing, the fear, the fact that he’s in love with Guts and has nearly lost his dream because of that love multiple times (ie nearly dying while trying to save him from Zodd, burning his own life down after Guts leaves, even going back and rescuing him personally that first week).
And that brings me to NeoGriffith, because what NeoGriffith is, is that image, and only that image, with none of the very human weaknesses behind it.
He’s described as a painting, as untouchable, etc, like fifty million times.
He’s basically become the impression he used to leave people with.
If Griffith contradicted himself – confidence vs insecurity, conviction vs self loathing, unwaveringly pursuing his dream vs Guts making him forget his dream, etc – then NeoGriffith is one side minus the other. Confidence, no insecurity, conviction, no self-loathing, the dream, no Guts.
And it’s uncanny too. He’s pursuing the dream, but he’s no longer motivated by his very human feelings of guilt (and also fear/insecurity, which we’re shown here:
I got this whole argument about dreams in Berserk being essentially shitty coping mechanisms lol, which I won’t get into now but is worth mentioning as another aspect of human Griffith that NeoGriffith lacks)
He’s lost his human flaws, and that makes him kind of disturbing imo, because those human flaws drove him, and now he’s driven by nothing, he just is.
And, just as a side note, it’s also worth noting that Femto is the other side imo – the self-loathing, the insecurity – in the sense that Femto is the embodiment of the monster Griffith believed himself to be deep down, the monster he believed Guts saw him as too, after this exchange (and then Guts leaving):
I mean it’s ultimately the final puzzle piece that makes him agree to the sacrifice:
And I 100% believe that NeoGriffith is referencing that here with his “you, of all people”:
So like, tl;dr Griffith is a land of contradictions, and that’s embodied in 2 magical fantasy transformations that make those disparate elements of him literal personifications.
NeoGriffith is the side of himself that he showed the world as a human, stripped of his humanity, and Femto is basically a personification of his own self-loathing, in which he became everything he feared himself to be, everything Guts failed to tell him he wasn’t.
But this is just like, the thematic take lol. This is what I think NeoGriffith essentially represents. But it’s also more complicated than that, because
But when it comes to like, NeoGriffith as a character, rather than a construct, who potentially still has emotions and ties to his previous life, I guess I’ll leave you with links because I don’t really have much new to say:
Basically I think there’s plenty of indication that Griffith failed to entirely purge himself of emotion and isn’t quite the serene image of perfection he seems.
guts’ nightmare of being a hypocritical monster despite his own traumas and ptsd involving real monsters and abusers (zodd/gambino) just after assassinating julius & adonis.
he’s wanting comfort after this event so badly after doing this atrocious deed for his friend, (he really seeks him out for comfort too—look how wrecked and upset he is—) but ultimately gets the equivalent of salty boiling water thrown on him after hearing griffith’s hot air speech.
man guts has been through some shit and a lot of it’s so subtle it worries me that ppl who haven’t known abuse in any form can’t understand berserk or really sympathize with … well … any of the characters tbh, unless they’re fantastically empathetic? but most fans seem to be macho fanboys and seem to miss the point entirely lmao
I see Guts overhearing the Promrose Speech and Griffith asking “do you think I’m cruel” as basically the exact same moment for each dude, and it’s so fucking depressing.
Like, AU where they got that reassurance from each other instead of getting shut down and turning to stupid dreams plz.
@bthump my sincere apologies for not seeing this earlier—that week was hectic af! but i love your thoughts here, thank you! very intriguing analysis as usual. i hadn’t thought of what you said about guts recklessness being a form of self harm but it very much is.
INTERESTINGLY though, as i’m rewatching some berserk ‘97 … it seems to be the place he got an arrow wound after julius’ assassination, just before hearing griffith’s speech that was the catalyst for everything falling apart ��
!!!
nice, might switch my headcanon to that. it works perfectly really, as the point where everything leading to the black swordsman arc began, not just because he overheard the speech but also because of the state of mind he was in when he overheard it having just killed a kid, ie
so yk, it ties the whole becoming the monstery asshole he was already afraid of being back then thing together. full circle. or something.
he wouldn’t keep asking if he didn’t want to hear griffith say it, ijs … there’s more than enough evidence that guts is aching for his attention /approval and aside from him literally stating it, this is a prime example. he’s asking griffith why he gives him attention and also asking for more, by being so direct.
they’re both struggling against their own very different versions of feeling worthless .. guts is in a state of disbelief that griffith (or anyone really) would put their life on the line for him. he doesn’t think he’s worthwhile or special at all. he seeks male approval (like most ppl with shitty stepdads, myself included). right from the get-go he’s enamored with griffith because he’s never been wanted, much less /claimed/, by anybody. griffith grabbing his face and telling him as much is probably the first time guts has EVER been touched in a non-violent way. griffith represents the male approval from someone he admires/ respects he’s been looking for. it’s no wonder he describes him so poetically and romantically. in guts’ mind, /nobody/ beats guts. but this fuckin guy! not only does he beat him, twice, but he’s very sweet on him afterwards.
guts: “adhjjjhjhhhhj”
and griffith, i think his guilt is married to his feelings of worthlessness … and it compounds daily. to fight his feelings he focuses on his goal, but the more focused he is, the more idealized/ mythologized and inhuman he seems, probably even to himself (and that might even scare him to a degree? but it is true he enjoys the chess game of tearing apart the monarchy). guts keeps him grounded and tethered to “real” griffith, the weak, worthless, human griffith. it’s probably a catch-22 in his mind … he desperately wants to be that “weak” human griffith that gives in to love but it’d invalidate all his work and everyone who believes in and has died for him. internalized homophobia might be (is definitely) working against him too … i want to say that griffith isn’t fully aware of or accept his feelings for guts until they split, and this is canonically true, but i think all of griffith’s emotions are squashed through self denial. griffith’s brand of self denial isn’t sustainable. i mean fuck, all it took was guts touching him, ultimately, to completely unravel him into behelit opening hell. how grotesquely, pitifully human, no?
worthlessness is a big reason he runs to charlotte, too. it’s not just to symbolically reclaim his dreams, he’s fighting off the weak, human griffith that he can’t be. it’s like he’s jealous of what he’s denying himself, the griffith he can’t be, the griffith with he easier path. after the charlotte mistake he of course spirals into worthlessness hell, unable to get guts’ affirmation that he IS indeed worthless and easily abandonable out of his head. it all ties in to his talk with the king nicely, too. tragic.
the more i think about it the bigger of a theme it feels. every character struggles against their own self loathing and worthlessness and role. nobody is balanced emotionally in their world, which is a big reason it’s so relatable. all their thoughts and actions are messy and believable.
idk this is all very basic shit i just have a lot of feeeelings about it lol ✨
whew ok this is a question that requires a long and complicated answer. i actually plan to make a more intricate analysis of griffguts as a relationship and how it affects the story soon, but i’ll answer in short hand for now. these are the three main components as to why i think guts is attracted to griffith, making their attraction reciprocal:
1. griffith is guts “special person”, and vice versa. what i mean by this is that griffith is the one person guts has continually wanted to impress and keep a part of him. as guts himself says the morning before leaving the hawks, griffith is the one person he wants to look at him. the relationship guts has with griffith holds a lot of parallels to his relationship with gambino – guts wants to prove himself and be valuable to them. guts driving goal, even at this point in the series (tho miura has sort of veered off the path of the main storyline right now) is to be special to and worthy of griffith. his choice to leave the hawks was a result of thinking he wasn’t good enough to be griffiths friend, and that he needed to become worthy of that distinction – unlike the others in the hawks, guts isn’t satisfied with just following griffith. he really has no investment in griffiths dream as a concept or ideal, he just cares about it because griffith does. guts wants to be an equal and a friend to griffith, and leaving the hawks seemed to him the only way it was possible to do that. post eclipse, guts still strives for griffiths attention. his revenge isn’t really about avenging his friends, it’s about getting griffith to look at him again. that’s why hearing femto say “his petty existence is beneath our notice”, and hearing ngriff say he “feels nothing” towards him are such strong triggers for guts rage. he wants griffiths attention and to be something to him.
2. guts is framed in the narrative and through artistic emphasis as being physically attracted to griffith. if you sift through the manga and look at the panels (i can’t add visual aides for this bc i’m on mobile now lol) where guts reminisces about griffith, griffith is actually drawn as being MORE BEAUTIFUL than he was drawn from a neutral perspective when the event guts is flashbacking to actually happened. i don’t think this reflects miuras change in style or anything like that, i think it’s a purposeful insight into how heavily romanticized griffith is in guts eyes (also the majority of guts major recurring flashbacks are shots of griff naked ie. the “i will get my own kingdom” when they have the water fight, neogriffith riding away naked after the rebirth, etc so do with that what you will lol)
3. guts still has difficulty separating “his” griffith from the new griffith. the first and perhaps most overlooked example of this is the beast of darkness. as a representation of guts darker side, the beast basically encompasses guts feelings of rage, hatred, isolation, and betrayal. it also represents the love he had for “his” griffith that has now been corrupted by the events of the eclipse. the beast of darkness is very sexual in tone, even in the words it uses to describe guts feelings. i could say a lot about this but the one thing i really do want to point out are the similarities between guts encounter with slan and the way the beast words how guts should kill griffith – both of them involve guts “thrusting” his sword into them. which is so unsubtle lol but who ever said miura was subtle. the beast urges guts to kill the “distractions” that are acting as a salve to his rage, aka his new friends and casca, and to go after griffith and force griffith to look at him again, ultimately culminating in griffiths death. again, this ties into the two points i made above – guts craves griffiths attention, and he finds griffith attractive. instead of, say, chopping griffs head off, the preferred method of death the beast gives is one that is very personal, and reflects a highly sexualized situation guts was in before where he wounded slan. i refuse to believe it’s a coincidence that the beast, and therefore guts, chooses to make griffiths potential death a sexualized event. but this violent, highly sexualized, animalistic dark side of guts is at conflict with guts higher self. when guts sees griffith on the hill of swords, looking so similar to how he did back when he was “his” griffith, he “[forgot his] urge to kill.” despite the deep wound of betrayal griffith has inflicted guts with, and the rage guts feels over it, his feelings of love for griffith block out his hatred. and isn’t it sort of tragic, that after all that’s happened, guts can’t even really hate griffith? just like how even after being betrayed and tortured for a year, griffith couldn’t manage to reach up and choke guts when he first saw him again in the tower. their feelings of love for each other drown out the hate and betrayal.
sent one, hope it works well if not I’ll just try differently!I’d die to see bits of daily apostle life tbh (or even some of the humans tbh, Mule, Sonia, Jarif) and same wrt that finale.. the world breaking part was just kinda high fantasy stuff and/or maybe a ‘bright and good’ parallel to the conviction arc ending.. but the character implications.. yeah
Yes that would be great!! Tbh I hope the next few chapters will have some hawks interactions and not just battle stuff
Right on! The faceoff against Gennon was def more satisfying considering everything, then the millennium arc ending is good imo but almost feels too big, if not for an emotional part like that..
Of course! Idk if links embed here in the replies (like for preventing bots) so I could send them w the message function or w/e works best for you!
i think it’s only asks that won’t let you send links, either replying or messaging should work.
yeah if we’re going back to Griffith’s narrative I’d love to see more relationships and emotional stuff than just monster fights, and more revealing glimpses into the apostles lives would be fantastic.
and ikwym, I think the final confrontation between griffith and ascended ganeshka was interesting, but mostly in like a metaphorical way and because it made me really interested in the possibility of getting into what it means for NGriff to be “the absolute, without equal,” ie, the inherent isolation and loneliness that we saw with Ganeshka. I don’t actually care all that much about like… the actual literal breaking the world open plot stuff lol.
100% agreed on the new hawks! Tbh I like their parts of the arc most.. ch194 where Mule is introduced to most of em and Grunbeld saves the kids from being eaten, 250 when Sonia and Irvine talk, 277 where Grunbeld & Locus go for a walk and wish luck to Zodd before he goes to battle AND Sonia gives advice and calls him Mr Black Lion, details like Mule squiring for Locus later etc.. lov that they develop their relationships, just wish there were more bits like these :’)
The part abt Ganishka
and Gennon is brilliant tbh!! First thing I thought after is how they
both see Griffith as much more important than he sees them.. like for
ex. When it happens, Griffith & Ganishka don’t meet as emperor vs
emperor but as godhand and apostle… Their own parallels are rly
interesting, so I like all the au variants a lot, thank you!!
Also I have some summaries for the Grunbeld novel that tell the basic
plot & stuff. I hope it gets an English ver soon
yeah I love all those moments. plus the way the apostles are given so much relatable humanity gives me a lot of hope for where the narrative is going, both because it def makes it less likely we’re headed for a plain old guts + co vs griffith + co, and because giving Griffith’s monster side of the narrative all the humanity makes me hope we’re going to get some more monstrousness out of Guts’ human side of the narrative to balance it out.
ty! and yeah that’s a good point – both G+G are obsessed with Griffith, but to Griffith they’re obstacles. I mean I think Gennon did have a huge affect on him, but he had his (really satisfying) moment of triumph when he looked down on him and told him he didn’t matter. Then with Ganeshka he follows that through, because he’s an untouchable god compared to him, but also reverses it, because at the end right before Griffith destroys him, they have a moment of connection.
btw would you happen to have a link to the Grunbeld novel summaries?
A small warm up I did a week or so ago before a comission
As happy as I am that Miura gave Guts a new team he feels and cares for… I really miss his early relationship with Puck (who is now a comedy relief). Especially for all the potential that the pilot gave us ;A; ❤
Come on Miura can’t we have both Puck and the whole team??! YOU ONLY DRAW ONION PUCK NOW
there’s too much happening here .. it’s so complex and terrible .. i did not want to get into this rn but there’s just so much happening
griffith at his breaking point just after hearing that horrible conversation about him being weak, feeling like a worthless burden, realizing his role in driving guts away, followed by casca absolving guts of this “burden” … griffith had already lived through hell once and was only sustained by his feelings for guts and now he’s being told he should leave again … and griffith has no say in this … it’s really no wonder his mind broke and he fled the scene. i could say a lot more about griffith here but i’m gonna digress! i don’t wanna get all sad and shit lol
and guts, as dense as he can be, is feeling guilty as hell (too little too late), and he’s the only one in the party still treating griffith as a person/friend and not a broken ideal or thing to be pitied (although we know why, guts is the only one who has access to the ~real~ griffith, and is the only real friend he has and others probably can’t see him as anything other than an idea or a leader, which dehumanizes him … but he’s always been enigmatic and unreachable by design … not to mention, everyone’s probably just freaked the fuck out over griffith’s whole situation rn and has no idea how to cope with this .. so they’re looking to casca for help or direction but she’s broken now too). even casca, who knows he’s just a man and not a god, and fragile as hell even at his best … she’d stay with him and help as best she could but she knows he’s not her “friend” per se. her feelings here are super messy and believable tbh. there’s a lot of subtext and guilt and chaos, and for a young woman to be dealing with all of this responsibility is nearly unimaginable.
all three of them have major fucking ptsd, without question. three young people, all melancholic and full of suicidal ideation, constantly reinventing the concept of hope, trying to cope with this massive situation and help each other through it … it’s really just too much. it’s too bleak, too fucked up. awful.
i’m not even gonna get into why the behelit opens, i assume it’s obvious lol
Definitely agree tbh there was sth very off about him saying he wanted to prove his loyalty (at Floras) when he’s been serving NG for.. years(??).. Rly feels like performing duty as you said, and feeling like hes not performing it well enough.
Ive only read summaries of the novel and some chapter bits (and he’s great tbh!!) this all fits, while what the new band of the hawk does fits w his ethos, idt he has it in him to dedicate himself to a leader anymore.
Also re: the novel…
the circumstances that led him to seek the falcon of light (besides
being apostle) kinda puts Griffith secondary, or at least it comes off
like that. But unlike seeking a leader (not) hes been looking for
friends and seems to be rly close to many other hawks.
Wrt the modern au: great!! Au Irvine is such a specific presence fhdhhdh
I can almost see him and his acoustic guitar. Also what are Ganishka
and Griffith to each other here? :“)
thanks for the extra info about grunbeld, this is p interesting. at some point i need to find what i can of his story and check it out.
i love that bit about grunbeld being close to the other hawks. it’s so interesting to have a band of the hawk 2.0 that isn’t just like, an evil twisted monster version of the former, but actually has the same sense of forged bonds and camraderie and the fact that they’re also monsters is like, neither here nor there lol.
but i love everything to do with giving the apostles more character depth and humanity.
also wrt Ganeshka, yk I think it depends what you want to emphasize. tbh my immediate thought was maybe merging his character with Gennon in a modern au. I feel like Ganeshka is meant to be kind of similar in part to highlight NGriff’s invulnerability. He’s got the magic apostle lust for him thing going on, he threatens him in a similar “i won’t kill you, i’ll capture you” with creepy insinuations, he has the unbeatable army – but unlike Gennon he’s never actually a threat.
So you could turn the ganeshka storyline into more of a power fantasy revenge story in a modern au, if you’re keeping the whole idea of a conflict.
But then (especially for this particular idea in which Griffith is stupid and sad after a stupid break up with Guts) it might be better to emphasize the way Griffith and Ganeshka are parallels – loneliness and isolation, feeling apart from the rest of humanity, anger and monstrousness stemming from fear, etc. In which case maybe you’d skip straight to ascended Ganeshka in a modern au and make it a one-off, weirdly revealing encounter with a stranger or something. Or make him a fictional person in something Griffith is watching/reading that makes him do some projecting.
yeah i get this feeling. and like, if given a choice between guts getting over revenge/griffith and moving on and living happily ever after vs everyone dying, i would definitely take the latter lol.
but i doubt v much that miura’s gonna kill everyone off, and tbf he doesn’t actually need to for berserk to get darker again, so I’d be more than happy if casca fucks shit up and only/mostly just the minor rpg group characters die. As long as something negative (that can’t be immediately reversed or fixed or solved) happens soon and we lose the lighthearted tone. but i think that’s pretty likely.
ty! and lol yk idk, it was just my immediate thought. Maybe because of the core apostles he seems a little more above the hype? he seemed kind of disdainful about being sent after flora, and he’s got that noble knight thing going on but it seems less personal/emotional than locus’ loyalty to griffith. i guess i get the impression that he’s following griffith more because of duty than any particular attachment to griffith, unlike the other apostles who are all personally obsessed.
but i feel like i get him least out of all the apostles, which is funny bc he’s the one with a spinoff story, but yk i haven’t read it so he’s still a mystery to me lol.
I was mainly thinking modern au where the apostles are just dudes griffith does some terrible rebounding with after his (temporary in this version) break up with guts. yk zodd is guts 2.0 but more violent/less restrained, irvine is a nerd who spends weeks alone at a time, raksas is probably a serial killer, etc. But ngl I could definitely get behind straight up canon NeoGriffith/various apostles. ikwym about the godhand charm powers but tbh the idea of an army of monsters basically instinctively compelled to desire griffith works for me lol, it’s an inherently fucked up concept so it kinda fits.
Chapters: 1/1 Fandom: Berserk (Anime & Manga) Rating: Explicit Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply Relationships: Griffith/Guts (Berserk) Characters: Griffith (Berserk), Guts (Berserk), Charlotte (Berserk) Additional Tags: Light Bondage, Light Dom/sub, Anal Sex, Anal Fingering, Gay Sex, Rough Sex, Rough Kissing, Cheating, Nipple Licking, Romance, Porn with Feelings, Porn, Arranged Marriage, Plot What Plot/Porn Without Plot Series: Part 2 of GriffGuts Happily Ever After Summary:
“You know,” Griffith began breathily, “while I lied with Charlotte, my mind kept going to you,” he groaned, feeling Guts press hot kisses down his abdomen. “My…body felt so hot imagining your cock inside of me, I became so excited that I nearly came before entering her body…”
tbf i think zodd would be capable of being romantic wrt griffithbut it’s obviously not the same since he’s actively placing griffith in a pedastal and only sees him as a divine being or really hot if this is modern au lmao. on the other hand he would absolutely fuck griffith hard on his hands and knees every time, no exceptions.
suddenly i’m considering a modern au where the cool apostles are all part of a rebound disaster sex tour after griffith and guts break up
imo
zodd is a stoic service top type (and ia definitely puts him on a pedestal)
locus is more the lovey dovey romantic one who thinks they’re dating after one night
idk why but i feel like grunbeld would turn griffith down
raksas is an actually scary sadist type but griffith returns multiple times for reasons he refuses to examine
you're the only one 